Not a Zombie Apocalypse this time. This time we are being killed by Dragons.

[Mixt]

It has been pretty well established at this point through our multiple zombie threads that zombies would never be able to pose a real threat to humanity.

So i was thinking we replace them with something else, something that is far more powerful than a rotting corpse.

How about...A Dragon Apocalypse?

Basically, invasion of giant flying firebreathing lizards come to kill all humans, occuring because scientists and the government did something fantastically stupid, like finding a way to access another dimension, find said dimension is populated by giant hyper-intelligent firebreathing reptiles, and then decide to use said dimension as a massive waste disposal site because hey, what could possibly go wrong?

Too bad the dragons can also cross through the portal over to our dimension.
Cue fiery vengeance for dumping our trash in their homes and/or stealing their resources/Stripmining all over the place.

So what we are looking at here is another sapient race out for our blood in a fit of vengeful rage, and while they lack our technological prowess or opposable thumbs, it's not like they need it.

Now let's define what kind of dragon we are using here.

-No magic beyond the small amount required to keep their bodies functioning/Enable flight, so no spellcasting

-Scales that provide better protection than even the most advanced bulletproof vest, which combined with their size makes small-arms fire completely useless (Ever try shooting a elephant with a handgun or similiar weapon? You won't get very far with that, now imagine if that elephant is also covered in bulletproof natural armor and you can see why you need some pretty damn big guns to deal with them)

-Human level intelligence, yes, they will do things like sever supply lines or specifically target leaders over common troops, kill all the compentent officers until only the hilariously incompetent idiots are left.

-Flight, obviously

-Size varies depending on age, since they never really stop growing as long as they are alive, but most ought to be slightly under twice the size of an elephant

-Fire, lots of fire, fire that under a sustained burst can melt steel

-Top of the line senses, the kind of thing you would expect from a dog (Smell) or a hawk (Sight)

-Extreme strenght, which combined with their size, puts it within the realm of possibility for one to flip a tank over, or force the hatch open and barbeque the guy inside

-Weak points include the eyes, wings and inside of the mouth (No scales to protect them)

-Impossible to reason with when they are angry, or if you are a crunchy hairless ape responsible for invading their home and dumping garbage all over the place

So the question is, under this setup, how much of a threat would they pose to humanity?

What happens, how does the military respond?
What does the government do?
How do people react when they realize the reason for the invasion?
What would you do when a angry oversized lizard comes to burn down your home?

This question has been gnawing at the back of my mind for the past several weeks, and it won't go away :smallannoyed:
So i figured i would ask how people think it would go/What they would do if faced with such a scenario.

[Holocron Coder]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0253556/ :smallbiggrin:

[KuReshtin]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0253556/ :smallbiggrin:

That's the first thing I thought of when I saw the thread title as well.

[Serpentine]

Dibs being dragon tamer, negotiator and draconologist! :biggrin:

[TheSummoner]

How many dragons are we dealing with? Rough total and the average at any given time?

How fast are they? Both on the ground and while flying.

Are they coordinated or do they operate largely independently of eachother?

[THAC0]

Nuke them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure!

[Cobra_Ikari]

...how much of a threat will they pose to people? A lot.But a threat to humanity? Man, you seriously underestimate our species's talent for destroying stuff.

[Happy Me]

Nuke them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure!

Heh. Actually air nuke bursts would take out a lot of dragons. It there is only one portal letting the dragons in, just keep wacking it with nukes until a non-nuke defense is established.

Jets would probably be able outrun and have much greater weapon range than dragon breath.

Ground to Air missles have long range and move very fast. One per dragon.

AA cannon (even the old 88's) would tear apart a dragon.

I think the dragons would be toast unless a huge number appeared at many locations all at once and knew what high value targets to strike before the military could respond.

[Fredaintdead]

Heh. Actually air nuke bursts would take out a lot of dragons. It there is only one portal letting the dragons in, just keep wacking it with nukes until a non-nuke defense is established.

Jets would probably be able outrun and have much greater weapon range than dragon breath.

Ground to Air missles have long range and move very fast. One per dragon.

AA cannon (even the old 88's) would tear apart a dragon.

I think the dragons would be toast unless a huge number appeared at many locations all at once and knew what high value targets to strike before the military could respond.

I have to agree with that. Bulletproof scales are not going to stop any of these weapons. Dragons vs humanity 50 years ago would be a clear win for the dragons, but as of the present we can nuke the buggers into extinction within 30 minutes of first contact. They'll be walking into our dimension with presumably no knowledge of our technology levels, so I doubt they'll know what nukes even are, let alone attempt to avoid them if they're angry enough.

So, yeah, we have the advantage. We're far too technologically advanced at this stage to be stopped by most mythical creatures, especially when said creatures don't have their spellcasting abilities available to them. A lizard with wings is NEVER going to be able to tank a direct impact from a 50 megaton bomb. Heck, TNT or explosive rounds from a high-powered rifle are likely going to do some not-ignorable damage, especially if you shoot a few holes in the wing-membrane I'd imagine.

In short: A quick tactical nuclear strike on the portal followed by a well-armed clean-up force is going to absolutely DECIMATE the dragons you've listed. They aren't cockroaches, that first strike is going to hurt. There will be casualties for us, but human beings adapt quickly, after losing a few skirmishes we will know what can punch a hole through a dragon and proceed to curbstomp them into nuclear winter.

For clarification, the US in 1978 had access to the W76 thermonuclear warhead, which detonates with the force of 100 kilotons. This is the equivalent of 100'000 tons of TNT. That was 34 years ago.
The largest warhead ever detonated was the Tsar Bomba, a 50 megaton bomb (50 million tons of TNT), which was actually only half of its full strength due to the full strength causing too much radioactive fallout FOR THE ENTIRE ARCTIC CIRCLE TO HANDLE. This bomb was detonated in 1961, and was equivalent to 10 times the power of ALL THE EXPLOSIVES USED IN WW2. This bomb makes Michael Bay blush at the sound of it. Launch something similar through the portal, and I would bet my life that it would ANNIHILATE the majority of the dragon population, if not outright kill them all.

[The Succubus]

I don't know whether to be more worried about being eaten or being mated with.

You know what dragons are like. :smalleek:

[Serpentine]

I think I'm more worried about the swiftness with which everyone seems to be resorting to nukes...

[Fredaintdead]

I think I'm more worried about the swiftness with which everyone seems to be resorting to nukes...

It's a creature twice the size of an elephant, that flies, breathes fire, thinks like a human and does not want to negotiate. A standard rifle is not going to hurt it 90% of the time unless it is packing explosive rounds, and I'm pretty sure if we just line up tanks it isn't going to do enough.

However, short of nukes, a standard missile attack from a jet fighter is likely going to down a dragon in 1 or 2 shots, add in that we can likely shred them from AA guns mounted on ocean cruisers, and we have a rather short war.

In short: A dragon's firebreath is a powerful weapon, but a dragon can't shoot city-destroying missiles in rapid succession from long range.

[Serpentine]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we have weapons in-between rifles and nuclear warheads - ones, moreover, far less likely than the latter to destroy entire ecosystems.

[THAC0]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we have weapons in-between rifles and nuclear warheads - ones, moreover, far less likely than the latter to destroy entire ecosystems.

Yep. And everyone who mentioned nukes also discussed those. Except for me, because I was quoting from a movie. :smallbiggrin:

[Fredaintdead]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we have weapons in-between rifles and nuclear warheads - ones, moreover, far less likely than the latter to destroy entire ecosystems.

I know, and I'm sorry, I just wanted to show how easily we COULD destroy the dragons.
In essence, anything that explodes with similar force to maybe half a ton of TNT is likely going to wound if not kill a dragon judging from the information given in the OP.

[pffh]

I know, and I'm sorry, I just wanted to show how easily we COULD destroy the dragons.
In essence, anything that explodes with similar force to maybe a quarter-ton of TNT is likely going to wound if not kill a dragon judging from the information given in the OP.

Indeed since even if some of the weaker explosives don't break the skin they would still probably turn the dragons insides into mush.

[Fredaintdead]

Indeed since even if some of the weaker explosives don't break the skin they would still probably turn the dragons insides into mush.

Exactly. The explosive force is likely going to at least snap bones. If a wing bone snaps we have a dragon plummeting out of the sky to its inevitably splat-inducing doom.

[GrlumpTheElder]

I view the Howitzer as a tried-and-tested means for destroying something much bigger and deadlier than oneself.

I imagine many anti-tank weapons could be effective - asuming the armour of your average dragon is equal or weaker to that of a tank...

[Fredaintdead]

I view the Howitzer as a tried-and-tested means for destroying something much bigger and deadlier than oneself.

I imagine many anti-tank weapons could be effective - asuming the armour of your average dragon is equal or weaker to that of a tank...

According to the OP a dragon's scales provide better protection than any bulletproof vest... I wouldn't think they're as tough as a tank, in fact, most of their resistance to damage seems to come from their size anyway, so yeah, they're just big. Explosive rounds from any sufficiently high-powered device (assault rifle? Shotgun? Probably not a .44 Magnum as small-arms fire isn't going to do much, but still) would likely be enough, but yes, any anti-tank weapon is going to rip them to pieces.

[TheFallenOne]

I concur with what was said by the others. Those dragons need to be vastly more than just bulletproof in order to pose a serious threat to our military. If they can't tank large-caliber AP ammunition and missiles they are fodder. And even if they can take what we currently have, I'm sure we can advance our weapon's penetration power very fast if it's Do or Die.

So what would I do? Let the military handle it and keep my head down.

What would I do if the dragons are a serious threat and you expect something more heroic from me than 'wait it out'?
Well, let's see, my field of expertise is medieval history, so little help there. But I do have some experience with paleography, and I know other people who have that plus archeology and someone who's a flat out genius, especially when it comes to languages. I'd grab those guys, infiltrate the dragon dimension and look for any hidden records that would give humanity an edge in the fight.
By the laws of Narrative Causality, I'd find evidence of some lost civilization destroyed by the dragons and in their chronicles the secret to winning this war.
Of course, with narrative causality off, I'd most likely die a flaming and senseless death. Or die when humanity nukes the dragon dimension. Or die from radiation poisoning from the garbage we dumped.

[Mixt]

I don't know whether to be more worried about being eaten or being mated with.

You know what dragons are like. :smalleek:

I fail too see how this is a problem :smallamused:


Also, nutjobs on the human side messing things up *Points at a number of people who have stated that in the case of a dragon invasion, they would totally side with the dragons and turn on their fellow humans in a heartbeat*

*Is picturing some nutters forming a dragon-worshipping sect and declaring war on the people who dare fight against them, and the dragons taking advantage, cue the military being repeatedly harassed by fanatical pro-dragon terrorists*

I'm pretty sure some people actually would react like that.
People have done stranger and dumber things before after all.

[Fredaintdead]

I fail too see how this is a problem :smallamused:


Also, nutjobs on the human side messing things up *Points at a number of people who have stated that in the case of a dragon invasion, they would totally side with the dragons and turn on their fellow humans in a heartbeat*

*Is picturing some nutters forming a dragon-worshipping sect and declaring war on the people who dare fight against them, and the dragons taking advantage, cue the military being repeatedly harassed by fanatical pro-dragon terrorists*

I'm pretty sure some people actually would react like that.
People have done stranger and dumber things before after all.

1 person has stated that they'd want to be a tamer, negotiator and draconologist. No one has stated that they'd side with the dragons. Yes, SOME people would think like that, but there is no way there would be enough to be able to even pose a minor hinderance to any military. Not when the US (and likely the UK) have got enough weapons to turn dragons into handbags.

[Serpentine]

Just because I love snakes, that doesn't mean I'm not well aware that they'll bite... It does mean I'm a lot more interested in them than just wanting to know how to chop its head off.

[Cobra_Ikari]

I think I'm more worried about the swiftness with which everyone seems to be resorting to nukes...

Would you feel better if my first thoughts on reading OP were "Bulletproof scales? Have you SEEN AA weapons?" >.>

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'd buy an elephant gun on Amazon. They probably have some armored cars.

Honestly, I would much rather see a zombie apocalypse. At least clever improv works in that. But only if I manage to get my family out safely. But really, why would they be any safer from dragons?

[SDF]

Hydrogen bombs would be better than atomic, much bigger explosion and no fallout.

Not that you would need more than a tank battalion... or infantry units with XM25s... I'd probably be more worried about the zombies.

[Mixt]

I wasn't talking about anyone on this thread.

I meant that i have seen a lot of people in other places on the internet who have made that statement.

And having a bunch of people engaging in sabotage and guerilla warfare is bound to cause at least some amount of damage.
Bonus points if some of those turncoats are part of the military, or worse still, in some sort of position of power.

Don't get me started on the inevitable "Dragons rights in society" groups who argue that the dragons are in the right because we did strike the first blow by dumping our crap all over their home.

And some people are going to be mighty pissed at the people who made the decision to turn the dragons home into a giant garbage dumb, thus causing the whole mess, after all, without that decision there would not be a war.

Then there's the problem of the dragons quickly learning what to avoid, and suddenly they are nowhere to be seen in the more heavily fortified areas, instead focusing on hit-and-run tactics to torch as many "Weak spots" as possible and get out before the army can get there with the heavy weapons.
The military can't be everywhere at once.

Or engineering situations where it becomes extremely difficult to get to them without causing ridiculous amounts of collateral damage in the process.

Sure, we probably win in the end, but i doubt it would be as easy as you are making it out to be, partly because the dragons do have a sense of strategy even when enraged, and partly because humanity is hilariously self-destructive.

[Fredaintdead]

I wasn't talking about anyone on this thread.

I meant that i have seen a lot of people in other places on the internet who have made that statement.

And having a bunch of people engaging in sabotage and guerilla warfare is bound to cause at least some amount of damage.
Bonus points if some of those turncoats are part of the military, or worse still, in some sort of position of power.

Don't get me started on the inevitable "Dragons rights in society" groups who argue that the dragons are in the right because we did strike the first blow by dumping our crap all over their home.

And some people are going to be mighty pissed at the people who made the decision to turn the dragons home into a giant garbage dumb, thus causing the whole mess, after all, without that decision there would not be a war.

Then there's the problem of the dragons quickly learning what to avoid, and suddenly they are nowhere to be seen in the more heavily fortified areas, instead focusing on hit-and-run tactics to torch as many "Weak spots" as possible and get out before the army can get there with the heavy weapons.
The military can't be everywhere at once.

Or engineering situations where it becomes extremely difficult to get to them without causing ridiculous amounts of collateral damage in the process.

Sure, we probably win in the end, but i doubt it would be as easy as you are making it out to be, partly because the dragons do have a sense of strategy even when enraged, and partly because humanity is hilariously self-destructive.

Guerilla warfare and dragon's rights groups aren't going to sprout up immediately. AA guns and missile strikes are going to happening from as early as 30 minutes from the initial attack. Furthermore, the dragons are going to know NOTHING about us. From what you've said, there was no first contact, there was just garbage day and then dragon invasion. From that, we have a species who knows little of us except that we are small compared to them (hence they are likely to underestimate us like any being of that size with the human level of intelligence you stated they have), vs a species who knows the same, and hence will not underestimate the much larger firebreathing enemy and hit as hard as possible. The dragons are going to get slaughtered. A single first-world country has the necessary armanents to fight off these dragons, and most of the first-world countries (if not all countries of the world) are likely going to unite against the draconic invasion, especially when the dragons prove that they aren't going to negotiate for peace.

Additional: When the dragon's start torching innocent humans (and they will if they're as angry as you say they are), it is going to get on the media, and at this point, any dragon's rights groups or guerilla traitors are going to lose ALL credibility. Imagine seeing innocent members of your own species getting slaughtered in their homes in rather brutal ways (burning to death/being devoured are not good ways to go), surely that is going to make you feel SOMETHING?

[FireJustice]

Hydrogen bombs would be better than atomic, much bigger explosion and no fallout.

thats a misconception

Hydrogen Bombs (H-bombs) are thermonuclear fusion based bombs.

They still use at least one fission-based stages to get to the fusion stage.
and can generate as much (or even more) fallout than their old sisters.

Yeah the explosion is a lot bigger.
But still dirty

[Cobra_Ikari]

Guerilla warfare and dragon's rights groups aren't going to sprout up immediately. AA guns and missile strikes are going to happening from as early as 30 minutes from the initial attack. Furthermore, the dragons are going to know NOTHING about us. From what you've said, there was no first contact, there was just garbage day and then dragon invasion. From that, we have a species who knows little of us except that we are small compared to them (hence they are likely to underestimate us like any being of that size with the human level of intelligence you stated they have), vs a species who knows the same, and hence will not underestimate the much larger firebreathing enemy and hit as hard as possible. The dragons are going to get slaughtered. A single first-world country has the necessary armanents to fight off these dragons, and most of the first-world countries (if not all countries of the world) are likely going to unite against the draconic invasion, especially when the dragons prove that they aren't going to negotiate for peace.

Additional: When the dragon's start torching innocent humans (and they will if they're as angry as you say they are), it is going to get on the media, and at this point, any dragon's rights groups or guerilla traitors are going to lose ALL credibility. Imagine seeing innocent members of your own species getting slaughtered in their homes in rather brutal ways (burning to death/being devoured are not good ways to go), surely that is going to make you feel SOMETHING?

Basically this. Actually, in addition, I'm really bothered by the assumption behind human-level intelligence. I read that as "capable of learning, adapting, communicating, and coordinating". That said, why would they off the bat have any idea how to sabotage supply lines or target officers or judge their competence? Also, with them being non-magical (and thus non-shapeshifting) flying things the size of a small house, how would they really go about getting information/military intelligence? I really don't see there being the kind of dragon spy network that would lead to them getting the information necessary to specifically target officers deemed competent while ignoring ones deemed incompetent. That's just...crazy.

[pendell]

For your dragon killing needs, I suggest the ZSU-23-4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaYCjfvHIsQ). 4 autocannons capable of 1000 rounds of 23mm cannon fire a minute, for a total of 4000 rounds/min sustained fire. Radar-guided and computer-controlled, I believe.

For ground troops, handheld AA missiles such as stinger should work well, or even wire-guided missiles like the TOW. And of course there are helicopter gunships and superiority aircraft as well. Heck, you could even use laser-guided bombs from the B-1 or B-2!

Essentially, nothing that flies can carry heavy armor. So a dragon resolves to "organic wet aircraft with no speed and distinctly subpar armament". I doubt even a third-world country would have much trouble with them, much less the combined might of the entire human world.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pffh]

Human intelligence doesn't help that much without the tech to back it up. Remember we have had human intelligence for tens of thousands of years and the only thing that has changed during those years is our diet and level of education. The dragons would most likely be no smarter then late cave men.

[Tyndmyr]

It has been pretty well established at this point through our multiple zombie threads that zombies would never be able to pose a real threat to humanity.

So i was thinking we replace them with something else, something that is far more powerful than a rotting corpse.

How about...A Dragon Apocalypse?

Basically, invasion of giant flying firebreathing lizards come to kill all humans, occuring because scientists and the government did something fantastically stupid, like finding a way to access another dimension, find said dimension is populated by giant hyper-intelligent firebreathing reptiles, and then decide to use said dimension as a massive waste disposal site because hey, what could possibly go wrong?

Too bad the dragons can also cross through the portal over to our dimension.
Cue fiery vengeance for dumping our trash in their homes and/or stealing their resources/Stripmining all over the place.

So what we are looking at here is another sapient race out for our blood in a fit of vengeful rage, and while they lack our technological prowess or opposable thumbs, it's not like they need it.

Now let's define what kind of dragon we are using here.

-No magic beyond the small amount required to keep their bodies functioning/Enable flight, so no spellcasting

-Scales that provide better protection than even the most advanced bulletproof vest, which combined with their size makes small-arms fire completely useless (Ever try shooting a elephant with a handgun or similiar weapon? You won't get very far with that, now imagine if that elephant is also covered in bulletproof natural armor and you can see why you need some pretty damn big guns to deal with them)

-Human level intelligence, yes, they will do things like sever supply lines or specifically target leaders over common troops, kill all the compentent officers until only the hilariously incompetent idiots are left.

-Flight, obviously

-Size varies depending on age, since they never really stop growing as long as they are alive, but most ought to be slightly under twice the size of an elephant

-Fire, lots of fire, fire that under a sustained burst can melt steel

-Top of the line senses, the kind of thing you would expect from a dog (Smell) or a hawk (Sight)

-Extreme strenght, which combined with their size, puts it within the realm of possibility for one to flip a tank over, or force the hatch open and barbeque the guy inside

-Weak points include the eyes, wings and inside of the mouth (No scales to protect them)

-Impossible to reason with when they are angry, or if you are a crunchy hairless ape responsible for invading their home and dumping garbage all over the place

So the question is, under this setup, how much of a threat would they pose to humanity?

What happens, how does the military respond?
What does the government do?
How do people react when they realize the reason for the invasion?
What would you do when a angry oversized lizard comes to burn down your home?

This question has been gnawing at the back of my mind for the past several weeks, and it won't go away :smallannoyed:
So i figured i would ask how people think it would go/What they would do if faced with such a scenario.

How much of a threat? Depends on their number and size of the poral.

Military blockades the hell out of the portal. Easy enough to put in enough firepower to hose whatever comes through, then send fighters to flatten the rest.

Me? I don't care much about the reason. I'm more interested in the implications of other dimensions, magic, energy, and what have you. I want to explore.

If they came for me? It's assault rifle time, I believe in hundred round mags, and I have a giant stack of them. The weak points may be few, but the reaction is to fill the air with lead and I'll hit it. I can reliably hit moving targets(vastly smaller than a dragon) out to about 300 yards, and have fairly decent odds at 500 with any sort of a rest. Hitting a wing or the like is trivial. Kill it, call a taxidermist. I want a dragon head on my wall.

[THAC0]

I want a dragon head on my wall.

You might need to rebuild your whole house to get a big enough wall!

[Tyndmyr]

You might need to rebuild your whole house to get a big enough wall!

Nah, I've got a loft in my apartment, so I can easily put a ridiculously large head up there, two stories of air-space gives lots of room for hanging stuff.

Seriously, though, imagine the potential of a brand new world to explore, and a portal between them? I can't imagine nuking that portal except as an absolute last resort, because the potential for gain is just so huge.

[Happy Me]

Then there's the problem of the dragons quickly learning what to avoid, and suddenly they are nowhere to be seen in the more heavily fortified areas, instead focusing on hit-and-run tactics to torch as many "Weak spots" as possible and get out before the army can get there with the heavy weapons.
The military can't be everywhere at once.

Or engineering situations where it becomes extremely difficult to get to them without causing ridiculous amounts of collateral damage in the process.



I think the dragons would have a hard time hiding as their radar profiles would be easy to spot. A dragon could think it is hiding from the jets (in clouds say) and still get spotted via our tech. Humans have lots of jets and various percentages could be up in the air at any one time and directed to dragons as needed. Again, only way the dragons 'win' is if there are thousands of portals and massive numbers of dragons in a suprise attack. Even then, probably iffy as one can imagine a group of 100 dragons attacking a carrier group and the shock the dragons would get from the defenses.

If dragons learned to hug the ground or land that would open up all the shorter range weapons (like stingers or even 'walls of lead' thrown up by rifles as mentioned above). A few might hide out for awhile but they would be hunted down. And humans love to hunt.

I can not think of a situation where a dragon creates a situation where it has enough human shields to deter any strike. Any serious concentration of humans is bound to be defended or would simply run away. How does a single dragon herd 1,000+ humans with just fire breath and other natural weapons? Maybe an island might work, but a series of jets with their accurate missles would still take out the hostage-holding dragon with little extra damage to the hostages.

Now if the dragons figured out nukes or had other high-tech weapons/defenses (e.g. radar jammers), then it would be a different type of war. But as OP defined it, that is not a worry.

I agree with the others about the formation of human allies. Those, if they had any real numbers, would take quite a while to get organized. I don't think the dragon slaughter would take that long so no real worries there.

[noparlpf]

...how much of a threat will they pose to people? A lot.But a threat to humanity? Man, you seriously underestimate our species's talent for destroying stuff.

Yeah, seriously. I think we'd find a way.


I don't know whether to be more worried about being eaten or being mated with.

You know what dragons are like. :smalleek:

This is true. Savage Species shows a half-gold dragon dog somewhere. :smalleek:


I think I'm more worried about the swiftness with which everyone seems to be resorting to nukes...

Ditto. Nukes are all well and good for destroying things, as long as nobody in the immediate vicinity (as in, like, on the same planet) has DNA or anything like that that could be damaged by the radiation.

[Rockphed]

Ditto. Nukes are all well and good for destroying things, as long as nobody in the immediate vicinity (as in, like, on the same planet) has DNA or anything like that that could be damaged by the radiation.

Or has electronic circuits worth keeping intact.

[noparlpf]

Or has electronic circuits worth keeping intact.

Those too. I like my Gameboy and my Internet.

[Tyndmyr]

Ditto. Nukes are all well and good for destroying things, as long as nobody in the immediate vicinity (as in, like, on the same planet) has DNA or anything like that that could be damaged by the radiation.

That's a huge overstatement. The US alone has blown up over a thousand.

You don't really want to ride out the blast in a fridge, but a nuke well away from you is not really all that big a deal.

[noparlpf]

That's a huge overstatement. The US alone has blown up over a thousand.

You don't really want to ride out the blast in a fridge, but a nuke well away from you is not really all that big a deal.

Hyperbole is fun.
I still don't think nukes are the right way to go. Good old-fashioned chemical explosives all the way.

[pffh]

Hyperbole is fun.
I still don't think nukes are the right way to go. Good old-fashioned chemical explosives all the way.

I wonder how much nerve gas you need to cover a planet.

[Happy Me]

Hyperbole is fun.
I still don't think nukes are the right way to go. Good old-fashioned chemical explosives all the way.

I would guess that if say, the USA, opened the portal there would probably be military units stationed nearby, on alert etc. Most likely the first response would not be nukes, but jets and missiles. Once the glorious leadership :smalltongue: saw how effective that was in eliminating hostile dragons, I doubt they would use nukes. Unless overwhelming numbers appeared, and then yeah, nukes would be used. If nowhere else (due to high rates of dispersal by the incoming dragons) regular bursts at the portal. How regular? I dunno; depends on the exact tactical situation. I don't know if nukes would close a portal but they would be used on any concentrations of the massive numbers if dragons were overwhelming the non-nuke methods.

Unless the number of dragons packed into that other dimension is very large number (I mean like Disc World silly-large) I think the non-nuke options would work very well so no real need for nukes.

[noparlpf]

Why exactly are we fighting these dragons? Working together we could to great things. They have immense lifespans and intellect; we have thumbs. TEAMWORK.

[Brother Oni]

Why exactly are we fighting these dragons? Working together we could to great things. They have immense lifespans and intellect; we have thumbs. TEAMWORK.

As the OP outlined, they're too annoyed that we're using their home as a dumping ground, to be reasoned with.

Question - how fast can the dragons fly and how far can they breathe fire? Unless they can outmatch or out range modern weaponry, it's going to be a turkey shoot for any modern aircraft or AA system.

If they fly at any decent height, radar will pick them up and they'd be shortly intercepted. If they stay low or on the ground, then we have things like AGSTAR or MSTAR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-packable_Surveillance_and_Target_Acquisition_Radar ) that will pick them up. MSTAR has a listed range of 30-42km, so even if the dragon could match a Peregrine falcon's listed air speed of 90km/h, that still gives any ground force 20 minutes to prepare and deal with it.

[Sneaky Weasel]

We would probably win, in my opinion. Our technology is just to powerful. But the casualties would be tremendous, and it would be a hard war. Not to mention the fact that I myself would be aiding the dragons from the first, mainly by giving them all the knowledge they need about us, and outlining our weaknesses to them.:smallamused: With enough information, and hit and run tactics, the dragons just might win.

[Cobra_Ikari]

We would probably win, in my opinion. Our technology is just to powerful. But the casualties would be tremendous, and it would be a hard war. Not to mention the fact that I myself would be aiding the dragons from the first, mainly by giving them all the knowledge they need about us, and outlining our weaknesses to them.:smallamused: With enough information, and hit and run tactics, the dragons just might win.

...how? The dragons are never stated to be capable of recognizing or understanding human languages. Communication with them would be nonexistant.

[Killer Angel]

However, short of nukes, a standard missile attack from a jet fighter is likely going to down a dragon in 1 or 2 shots, add in that we can likely shred them from AA guns mounted on ocean cruisers, and we have a rather short war.

A simple stinger would do the work almost as well.


1 person has stated that they'd want to be a tamer, negotiator and draconologist.

now that i think of it (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0892769/)...

[Happy Me]

We would probably win, in my opinion. Our technology is just to powerful. But the casualties would be tremendous, and it would be a hard war. Not to mention the fact that I myself would be aiding the dragons from the first, mainly by giving them all the knowledge they need about us, and outlining our weaknesses to them.:smallamused: With enough information, and hit and run tactics, the dragons just might win.

As previously asked, how do you plan to communicate with the dragons? They don't speak any known language, are grumpy and would toast/eat you on sight.

Maybe if you captured one and were able to establish some sort of communications your plan might have some effect. Still would require the establishment of communication, the education of the dragon (assuming you do not make mistakes about human defenses, get caught by other humans with a live dragon, etc. , and the dragon somehow getting that information back to his/her race. But that would take time and I think the Dragon/human war would be over very quickly (before you could capture etc. a dragon).

If the dragons had spells or tech it would be a whole different story. Here they don't so....slaughter. The dragons better hope they do not taste yummy or else the humans will go hunting for them in their own home universe once things have wrapped up on earth!

[Coidzor]

So basically they're the equivalent of WWI fighter planes with slightly better handling and flamethrowers instead of machine guns.

Doesn't really sound like much of a threat barring something contrived.


So the question is, under this setup, how much of a threat would they pose to humanity?

Macro-level: Very little. Micro-level: could wipe out a small town.


What happens, how does the military respond?

Rockets, helicopters, jets, missiles, radar. You just said bullet-proof, not explosion-proof or thermite resistant.


What does the government do?

I imagine that governments with the things to take them out easily would very quickly get concessions from any neighbours who might have trouble dealing with them.


How do people react when they realize the reason for the invasion?

Confusion, annoyance, questions as to whether dragons are good with A1 steak sauce. I'm sure it'd spawn at least a few Mythbusters episodes.


What would you do when a angry oversized lizard comes to burn down your home?

Well, if it got to that point, I imagine I'd try to escape, now wouldn't I? :smallconfused:

I rather doubt that it would come to that, given that I'm not that far from an air force base and am fairly close to the center of town, so there's a lot of larger buildings that would be more attractive targets and not a lot of time for the dragon to survive as an unfriendly air unit.


This question has been gnawing at the back of my mind for the past several weeks, and it won't go away :smallannoyed:

Why? :smallconfused: If you really doubt the capabilities of modern militaries to take out slow-moving, relatively large airborne objects, there's at least one series that the History Channel did which would help clear that up.


I have to agree with that. Bulletproof scales are not going to stop any of these weapons. Dragons vs humanity 50 years ago would be a clear win for the dragons

I'm going to have to voice my doubts about that. We had jets and missile tech back in 1962, last I checked.


I wasn't talking about anyone on this thread.

I meant that i have seen a lot of people in other places on the internet who have made that statement.

Negligible numbers of people, utterly dismissed and easily handled by conventional police forces while the UAVs and fighter pilots do their jobs.


And having a bunch of people engaging in sabotage and guerilla warfare is bound to cause at least some amount of damage.
Bonus points if some of those turncoats are part of the military, or worse still, in some sort of position of power.

That's so far beyond contrived that I can't even think of a term that encapsulates the idea properly. :smalleek:

[pendell]

And having a bunch of people engaging in sabotage and guerilla warfare is bound to cause at least some amount of damage.


How does this work?

The point of partisan warfare is to make life utterly miserable for an enemy in their rear areas. To conduct assassination, sabotage, destruction of fuel depots and rail junctions. This has the primary effect of inhibiting the military organization that uses those resources and a secondary effect of forcing the enemy to commit military forces to rear area security which would otherwise be used to oppose the conventional enemy on the conventional line of battle.

The dragons, as described have no "rear area" to attack. There are no logistics centers, no transportation hubs, nothing for partisans to attack. Nor do the dragons have a conventional battle line or organization which would force them to deploy security troops.

This is an air battle, not a land battle, so guerrilla warfare makes no sense. The closest real-world analog would be the Battle of Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_britain) or possibly Big Week (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Week). The way to defeat an enemy who is airborne and whose airbases are invulnerable is to inflict enough attrition on their air assets that they cancel operations and find something else to do, some battle that's actually worth the cost.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[noparlpf]

As the OP outlined, they're too annoyed that we're using their home as a dumping ground, to be reasoned with.

Question - how fast can the dragons fly and how far can they breathe fire? Unless they can outmatch or out range modern weaponry, it's going to be a turkey shoot for any modern aircraft or AA system.

If they fly at any decent height, radar will pick them up and they'd be shortly intercepted. If they stay low or on the ground, then we have things like AGSTAR or MSTAR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-packable_Surveillance_and_Target_Acquisition_Radar ) that will pick them up. MSTAR has a listed range of 30-42km, so even if the dragon could match a Peregrine falcon's listed air speed of 90km/h, that still gives any ground force 20 minutes to prepare and deal with it.

I'm now contesting the original premise. I for one would sign the petition against legalizing the dumping of waste into the pristine wilds of some other plane.

As for communication problems--sure, they won't speak any human languages, but two intelligent species with no common language can work out a means of communication without too much trouble.

[Cobra_Ikari]

As for communication problems--sure, they won't speak any human languages, but two intelligent species with no common language can work out a means of communication without too much trouble.

...two warring intelligent species that likely lack anatomy making speech in the other's language possible? I mean, I suppose it could, but it seems unlikey/difficult. Especially if the dragons are as pissed as they're made out to be.

[Flickerdart]

Heat-seeking missiles are a universal language.

[pendell]

...two warring intelligent species that likely lack anatomy making speech in the other's language possible? I mean, I suppose it could, but it seems unlikey/difficult. Especially if the dragons are as pissed as they're made out to be.

Maybe so, but if they're intelligent they're going to eventually want to talk with people once they realize that they're not going to be able to wipe out the human race. Likewise, if the humans can't annihilate the dragons, at some point even lawful evil types might recognize there was greater profit in getting the cooperation of dragons than having to pay the costs of their continual raids.

A wise man (http://www.sonofthesouth.net/slavery/abraham-lincoln/abraham-lincoln-first-inaugural-address.htm) once said



Suppose you go to war, you cannot fight always; and when, after much loss on both sides, and no gain on either, you cease fighting, the identical old questions, as to terms of intercourse, are again upon you.


Much like the Man-Kzinti wars in Niven's Known Universe, eventually there's going to come a point when all parties are going to have an interest in talking to each other. So dragons could take captive humans and teach them to read letters scribed by claws on the ground. Or a gesture language. Or make them sensitive to their mind-speech. Humans, for their part, would no doubt be doing the same.

This is necessary even if the only interest is in continued war, as there's no way to interrogate a captive you can't talk to.

So I can well imagine they're being a Speaker-to-Dragons or Speaker-to-hairless-apes. And I suspect it would be a more honorable office than simply killing them.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Coidzor]

I'm now contesting the original premise. I for one would sign the petition against legalizing the dumping of waste into the pristine wilds of some other plane.

It does seem to be a rather weak premise. The most of what would be worthwhile to dump would be nuclear waste and, maybe, aging chemical weapons that we're dawdling our feet about dismantling. But, last I checked, even the U.S. was finally doing something about its aging chemical weapons stockpiles, and developing nations don't seem much of a factor as far as dumping into transdimensional space.

I rather doubt that a planet's worth of dragons would mind most nuclear waste until it got widespread enough to have an effect on prey supplies on the global scale.

Granted, there's all sorts of problems with dragons existing in our reality as it is, the least of which is that they shouldn't be breeding like jackrabbits at that size of apex predator.


As for communication problems--sure, they won't speak any human languages, but two intelligent species with no common language can work out a means of communication without too much trouble.

Provided they're willing, which the premise's dragons are decidedly not. How they're able to be that and identify us as the cause of X and organize enough to all come through and attack us...

[noparlpf]

It does seem to be a rather weak premise. The most of what would be worthwhile to dump would be nuclear waste and, maybe, aging chemical weapons that we're dawdling our feet about dismantling. But, last I checked, even the U.S. was finally doing something about its aging chemical weapons stockpiles, and developing nations don't seem much of a factor as far as dumping into transdimensional space.

I rather doubt that a planet's worth of dragons would mind most nuclear waste until it got widespread enough to have an effect on prey supplies on the global scale.

Granted, there's all sorts of problems with dragons existing in our reality as it is, the least of which is that they shouldn't be breeding like jackrabbits at that size of apex predator.



Provided they're willing, which the premise's dragons are decidedly not. How they're able to be that and identify us as the cause of X and organize enough to all come through and attack us...

I could see humans using a portal to another plane as a big dump. We pile our refuse everywhere on our own planet; why not pile it elsewhere? I live ten minutes from the local dump.

[Coidzor]

I could see humans using a portal to another plane as a big dump. We pile our refuse everywhere on our own planet; why not pile it elsewhere? I live ten minutes from the local dump.

Well, unless it was a phenomenally low energy procedure, it'd be simpler and easier and cheaper to just continue on as we do.

And if we had the power generation capabilities to trivialize interdimensional travel, we'd also be capable of trivializing leaving the earth's gravity using the space cannon idea if nothing else.

And if we're capable of casually entering orbit, we're also capable of a whole bunch of other things that render the scenario moot and no longer really us.

Granted, I could be totally off-base, but trivially cheap interdimensional travel doesn't really jive with me.

[Traab]

Nah, I've got a loft in my apartment, so I can easily put a ridiculously large head up there, two stories of air-space gives lots of room for hanging stuff.

Seriously, though, imagine the potential of a brand new world to explore, and a portal between them? I can't imagine nuking that portal except as an absolute last resort, because the potential for gain is just so huge.

Thats why I say counter invasion. Fighter pilots would be able to strafe the hell out of the dragons. Im pretty sure the gatling guns mounted on them would have more than enough punch alone to handle the dragons and riddle them with bullet holes. If not then missiles. The military would strike back with insane speed, corralling the majority of the dragons back to their portal, killing them off, then in we go to establish a beachhead. From there it depends on conditions of the world, but we basically move in to take it over. Biggest problem would be deciding which country or group of countries gets first dibs. Could spark off a war amongst ourselves to see who controls the new discoveries that could potentially be made.

[Rockphed]

Granted, there's all sorts of problems with dragons existing in our reality as it is, the least of which is that they shouldn't be breeding like jackrabbits at that size of apex predator.

Humans are apex predators, but we have been experiencing exponential population growth for the last century or more. If the dragons have any sort of agriculture, they are going to be be able to sustain quite a large population, though nowhere near Human population levels.

[Coidzor]

Humans are apex predators, but we have been experiencing exponential population growth for the last century or more. If the dragons have any sort of agriculture, they are going to be be able to sustain quite a large population, though nowhere near Human population levels.

We're much more reasonably sized and we have agriculture. :smalltongue:

Give dragons agriculture and you start to diminish their raw dragonosity, so I don't even see that as worth consideration.

[Silverraptor]

This is how we stop a Dragon Apocalypse. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSRtYpNRoN0)

:smalltongue:

[pendell]

Thats why I say counter invasion. Fighter pilots would be able to strafe the hell out of the dragons. Im pretty sure the gatling guns mounted on them would have more than enough punch alone to handle the dragons and riddle them with bullet holes. If not then missiles. The military would strike back with insane speed, corralling the majority of the dragons back to their portal, killing them off, then in we go to establish a beachhead. From there it depends on conditions of the world, but we basically move in to take it over. Biggest problem would be deciding which country or group of countries gets first dibs. Could spark off a war amongst ourselves to see who controls the new discoveries that could potentially be made.

What if the dragons surrender when they realize they're outmatched? Might they be integrated into our society to the point where, a few generations hence, we have a dragon for president?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[noparlpf]

What if the dragons surrender when they realize they're outmatched? Might they be integrated into our society to the point where, a few generations hence, we have a dragon for president?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

A few human generations, or a few dragon generations?
Also, the White House might not fit a dragon very well.

[thubby]

this wouldnt even be a fight. missiles can lock onto living things so long as they have a significant cross section (to the chagrin of SAMs IRL).

we'd be murdering them from beyond sight range.

[Telonius]

We don't even need to go particularly high-tech to deal with the dragon threat. Hot tar will mess up a dragon's flight/sight pretty well; make it sticky enough and they'll suffocate just like anything else.

That's even leaving aside obvious things like releasing a herd of poisoned sheep, getting them on your side by means of a lottery for virgins, etc.

[Traab]

What if the dragons surrender when they realize they're outmatched? Might they be integrated into our society to the point where, a few generations hence, we have a dragon for president?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

They could, but that would only account for america. What happens when the other 700 countries in the world want to continue the invasion of Dragotopia looking for valuable pillage? Heh, besides, unless the dragons learn to speak a human language, I doubt the thought of them being truly sentient will be more than a theory until well after they have been mostly obliterated, so it would be hard for them to surrender since the instant they appear on anyones radar they get blasted by missiles.

[pendell]

A few human generations, or a few dragon generations?
Also, the White House might not fit a dragon very well.

Remodeling. The White Cave? Presumably carved into Mt. Rushmore?

Also, I doubt that if the humans utterly dominate the dragons militarily that they would then proceed to exterminate them all. If the humans are unaware of their sapience they may still try to capture them as beasts of burden or for circuses and zoos.

Once dragons are part of human society, even if only as zoo animals, at some point we are going to need basic communication along the lines of "can't eat that" or "My stomach hurts". Once that happens , it's only a matter of time before biology types are getting their doctorates by exploring the extent of dragon intelligence. Making the leap from "very smart animal" to "being like us" has never been done by any other species, so I'm not sure how it could be done. But not impossible.




Respectfully,

Brian P.

[thubby]

considering humanity has a history of treating even our own species like beasts of burden, i think you're overestimating humanity.

[pendell]

considering humanity has a history of treating even our own species like beasts of burden, i think you're overestimating humanity.

Maybe so. But some humanity also let their slaves go voluntarily.

I come from a place of viewing humans very cynically, as a race of selfish and evil ****. But the longer I live, the more I realize that, although there is more accuracy in that viewpoint than I would like, it's not the full picture. Humanity can reach depths of horror, yes, but it's also capable of great goodness.

We're a complex species, not a black-and-white dichotomy like orcs or elves. To be human is 'enough pride to lift the head of the lowest beggar and enough shame to lower the head of the greatest emperor'.

If dragons became slaves or beasts of burden, they certainly wouldn't gain their freedom without a struggle -- human self-interest is strong. But such struggles can be won, and such struggles don't necessarily need to be violent. Wilberforce, Gandhi and Martin Luther King all demonstrated it isn't necessary to kill people to effect lasting change.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Pokonic]

A few human generations, or a few dragon generations?
Also, the White House might not fit a dragon very well.

"Dunki for president 2056!"

Anyway, back on topic: it depends on how many of them come out. If everything goes Skyrim and there are quite a few flying within the airspace, it might be a issue. Also, there is the fact that, if the dragons are going to still raid and raid again for a extended period, they will need a spot to sleep. As such, places like mountion ranges would become killing fields.

[Bhu]

-Scales that provide better protection than even the most advanced bulletproof vest, which combined with their size makes small-arms fire completely useless (Ever try shooting a elephant with a handgun or similiar weapon? You won't get very far with that, now imagine if that elephant is also covered in bulletproof natural armor and you can see why you need some pretty damn big guns to deal with them)


http://www.vincelewis.net/60magnum.html

"The .600 Nitro Express cartridge was originally developed in 1899 for big game hunters who went to Africa with the intention of killing elephants."

[Brother Oni]

http://www.vincelewis.net/60magnum.html

"The .600 Nitro Express cartridge was originally developed in 1899 for big game hunters who went to Africa with the intention of killing elephants."

Nitpick: that's a longarm rather than a small arm. :smalltongue:

To be honest any sort of rifle is going to put a hole into a dragon, especially the wing membranes or other vital spots like the eyes or joints.

I know that poachers in Africa hunt elephants with AK47s and I've seen a crossbow kill one (they shot it in a vital spot then ran away until it bled to death) so even when scaled up for 'bullet proof scales' when you start getting into the machine gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPMG) and anti-materiel rifle range (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_mm_caliber), being immune to small arms fire isn't that impressive (especially with armour piercing ammo).

[pendell]

Quite. Modern attack helicopters such as the Hind or the Apache are armored against bullets, and in critical spots are armored against 23mm cannon fire. So is the A-10. That doesn't make flying these aircraft in battlefield conditions "safe". It just means you're less likely to be knocked down by a golden BB.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Bhu]

Nitpick: that's a longarm rather than a small arm. :smalltongue:



'originally' developed for long arms. There are two handguns making use of it now.There's also plans to convert the 700 magnum to a handgun round as well, though god alone knows who would have the wrist strength to fire the thing...

[Traab]

'originally' developed for long arms. There are two handguns making use of it now.There's also plans to convert the 700 magnum to a handgun round as well, though god alone knows who would have the wrist strength to fire the thing...

Lonely teenage boys. Too much fap fap equals wrists the size of tree trunks. /nod :smallbiggrin:

[Bhu]

It would take more than that. For the two guns using the 600 magnum one is a 13 pound revolver which needs to be fired from a braced position. The other is a one shot target pistol weighing 6 lbs and is no longer made because no one who fires it can hold onto the gun as seen in many a youtube video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lzri8dn7p0 potentially nsfw

[Fredaintdead]

So, I think the general consensus here is that the dragons are screwed to a rather large extent, even if we don't resort to nuclear weapons. :smallbiggrin: