[3.5] Starting new campaign at level 1, need advice

[macdaddy]

Alright! We are starting up a new 3.5 D&D campaign after spending quite some time away from it (left just before 3.5 came out and started up HackMaster and then much later GammaWorld D20 / heavily modified).

The rest of the party is all set, and looking it over, we are terribly magic light.
2 Barbarians
1 Dwarf fighter
1 cleric
1 rogue
1 druid
1 cleric who will go the mystic theurge route.

Yup, including me that is 8 players. :)

So looking it over, I thought a focused specialist conjurationer would provide the best overall value to the party. Some battlefield control, buff and debuff action. I will pretty much avoid monster summoning, as the druid will easily have that covered.

Here is what I am thinking: (Rolled Stats, 4d6 keep highest 3)
S:14 D: 14, C: 14, I: 18, W: 13, CH: 10

Either human or strongheart halfling (+1 feat, -2S, +2Dex? sounds good to me).

Conjurer 5, Master Specialist 3, Paragnostic Apostle 4

Feats:
1. Cloudy Conjuration,
H: Improved Initiative,
[Wizard] Scribe Scroll
3. Spell Focus (Conjuration)
5. [Wizard] Extend Spell
6. Sculpt Spell,
[Master Specialist] Skill Focus(Spell Craft)
8. [Master Specialist] Greater Spell Focus(Conjuration)
9. Meta Magic Specialist (Conjuration)
[Paragnostic Apostle] Mind Over Matter
10. [Paragnostic Apostle] Penetrating Insight
12. Spell Focus (Transmutation, required for archmage)

I am unsure of what to do at that point. Can't get into ArchMage until 14th level, so I need two more levels of something. Master specialist is kind of meh after 3rd, and 2 more levels of conjurer are also kind of meh. Loremaster would be cool, but would require a skill focus(knowledge) feat, of which I would be short (and loremaster screams 3 levels for the free feat)

What do you think? What would you change?

[HMS Invincible]

What is with your pointbuy? This is a high power game if you have the points for 14 in str, dex, con, wis, and still have 18 int.
Why not convert the str into more another point in con and dex? You don't need the str.
Mage of the arcane order prestige class would complement your focused specialist build well. You can turn your specialist slots to fuel spells from any school.

[Axier]

A focused Specialist master wizard conjurer actualy is fantastic! Why you ask? Simple, by level 13, if using the Conjurer Unearthed Arcana variant, you can summon 2 creatures in one round, one as swift, one as standard, still use a move action (Cloaked Dance lol), and have one creature with a full turn, and one creature with a partial action.

How it is possible:
The UA Conjurer variant for a couple of the levels (and you don't have to take all the variants, we are only concerned with one of the variant class abilities.) will replace your scribe scroll feat with Augment Summoning, but more importantly, with the exchange of a familiar, you can cast any Conjuration Summon spell as a standard action. Giving the summoned monster one partial turn (attack or move)

Look deeper into the Master Specialist, and you see the 10th level Major School Esotera, that makes any standard action conjuration spell allow you to cast it as a swift action. Giving you a creature with a whole set of action. The other benefits from the class extend the stay time of your conjured summons, and makes them almost epic level effective caster level to banish them.

This is also superb for blasting, because you can use an elemental orb spell quickly, or one of the few AoE spells that conjuration gets whenever you seriously need to pack a punch. What is even better is that none of these spells are affected by spell resistance, for consistant damage very rapidly.
30d6 for 2 spells in one round and still have a movement action is some serious pain.

[Hyde]

What is with your pointbuy? This is a high power game if you have the points for 14 in str, dex, con, wis, and still have 18 int.
Why not convert the str into more another point in con and dex? You don't need the str.
Mage of the arcane order prestige class would complement your focused specialist build well. You can turn your specialist slots to fuel spells from any school.

Offhand, I'd say he rolled it?

[Particle_Man]

Have you considered the Malconvoker prestige class in Complete Scoundrel?

[macdaddy]

Yes. I did roll the stats. Which is why I was considering strongheart halfling. Bleed 2 STR for 2 Dex, and still get a bonus starting Feat. That extra floating 14 is kind of worthless for a mage....

I know about the MalConvoker, but I want to stay away from it. We have a druid in the party who can pretty much handle the monster summoning part. So I don't see a need to overdue it, thus I am not taking augment summoning and such.

I have access to the Core books, Complete Everything (Mage, Arcane, divine, champion, scoundrel, etc al) and the spell compendium. I am going to stay away from Abrupt Jaunt as the Conjuration Variant from PHB II. I would never allow it as a DM, so I am not going to even ask for it.

I don't recall if mage of the arcane order is available in those books or if it is in UA or some campaign variant(greyhawk, eberon, etc)

Also, our campaigns usually peter out by around 12th level; playing roughly 20 times a year means we end up taking 2 years or so to get up high enough. By then whoever is running it wants to take a turn playing.... Depends on the DM;s whims....


I could do a simple:
Conjurer 5, Master Specialist 10, Arch Mage 5

The feats are fairly tricky. I am thinking overall I would like:
================================================== ==
Cloudy Conjuration, Improved Initiative, Spell Focus(Conj), GSpell Focus(Conj), Extend Spell, Sculpt Spell, Meta Magic School Focus (Conj),
Improved Familiar(imp)

Required for ArchMage:
================================================== ==
Spell Focus (Trans)

Not a lot of room to play around with that load out.

[Hunter Noventa]

Have you considered the Malconvoker prestige class in Complete Scoundrel?

He mentioned wanting to avoid summoning as the druid was already going to be doing that.

That Skill Focus would be better spent on Concentration if you ask me, for better casting under duress, as your Spellcraft isn't as important as you might think it is. But I'm away from my books and couldn't tell you if it was an option.

[macdaddy]

My DM may or may not allow Mage of the Arcane Order. He also may, or may not allow Strongheart Halfling.

So, I am going to make things a little easier. A focused specialist Conjurer, Master Specialist.

Human (or strongheart halfling if allowed)
S: 13 (11), D: 14 (16), Co: 14, I: 18, W: 10, Chr: 14
Note: the values in parens are for halfling

Alignment: Lawful Neutral

1. Wizard(1): Cloudy Conjuration, Spell Focus(Conjuration), Scribe Scroll
2. Wiz(2)
3. Wiz(3): Extend Spell
4. Wiz(4)
5. Wiz(5): Sculpt Spell
6. Master Specialist(1): Metamagic School Focus(Conj), Bonus(Skill focus spellcraft)
7. MS(2)
8. MS(3): Bonus Greater Spell Focus(Conjuration)
9: MS(4) [Open Feat]
10. MS(5)
11. MS(6)
12. MS(7) [Open Feat]
13. MS(8)
14. MS(9)
15. MS(10) Spell Focus(Transmutation) [Required for Arch Mage]
16: Archmage (1) Mastery of Shaping!
17: Archmage (2) Spell Like Ability: Timestop!
18: Archmage (3) Arcane Reach!, [Open Feat]
19: Archmage (4) Mastery of Elements(? should I bother?)
20: Archmage (5) Spell Power(? should I bother?)

So, I have three open feats. One at 9th, 12th, and 18th.

I was thinking of taking Improved Familiar at 9th. If I was a halfling, I considered a blink dog. I am not sure if it would be possible to ride the Blink Dog and thus gain access to its dimension door ability, which could lead to all sorts of fun :). However, the description on the Blink Dog makes it sound like it is NOT possible. Otherwise, I will take an Imp, have him be invisible and give him a wand or two ;)

I am not sure if Improved familiar is truly worth it however, and I even if I take it, I have no idea of what to do with the other available feats.

Can anyone help me out with ideas for those feats?

[hex0]

You can get into Master Specialist as a 3rd level wizard, btw.

Aside: Though if you are not wanting to play a summoner, why not choose an Enchanter or something instead? Master Specialist has decent ecosetria for each school and you can play into that. If you don't mind losing a caster level, a dip into prestige bard boosts your caster levels in some schools and lets you learn the bard spells.

Edit: Also, have you considered Ultimate Magus? Your party is pretty strong, so losing one caster level for improved versatility might be interesting.

Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necromancer 1/Wizard 4/UM 10 with Practiced Spellcaster in the spontaneous class means you never lag in wizard casting.

[macdaddy]

I know I could get into Master Specialist starting at 4th level, but I figure it is worth it to get two more levels of wizard for the free feat. I think having Sculpt spell and MMS focus(conjuration) together by 6th level outweighs jumping into Master Specialist asap.

I considered a Beguiler 1 / Wizard 4 / Ultimate Magus 10, but ultimately discarded it. By my math, I would have to wait until I was a 10th level character before I gained 2nd level spells from the Beguiler class (which is when its spells start to be good). While the wizard level would only be one level behind, thus having the spell progression of a sorcerer, the beguiler class would be practically useless for quite a long time. While I could burn those 1st level slots for simple meta magic feats(extend, sculpt), I just don't think that it buys me much more than taking the metamagic school focus(conj) does until I get up to around 15th level.

Maybe I am wrong, and someone can point out that a beguiler/wizard/UM is kick arse at low to mid levels, but I don't see it. It may very well be kick arse around level 15, but as we aren't likely to get much past 12th, I don't see an overwhelming reason to play that type of character/

[Thespianus]

On another note, can I ask why you seem locked down to Conjuration?

It seems to me that, with your party having a lot of melee types, a Focused Transmuter might be better? If you're able to spam Transmutation buffs on your buddies, they will love you the bestest. :)

Grab Toughening Transmutation instead of Cloudy Conjuratiuon if you really want one of the Complete Mage feats. A DR of 5/magic can go a long way, at least at low levels.

Maybe even grab the Immediate Magic ACF, PHBII, dump Scribe Scroll (although Transmutation has a lot of good utility spells), and you're able to Fly or Climb at full speed for one round. It's not Abrupt Jaunt, but it's not Urgent Shield either. :)

You get less Battlefield Control options, but you will be able to buff your party like crazy. Nerveskitter, Enlarge Person, Animate Rope, even Fist of Stone (would bump your Str 14 to Str 20 for one minute) are fun and useable spells from character Level 1.

Rope Trick, Heroics, and Alter Self kick in at character level 3.

Fly, Haste, Greater Mighty Wallop, Slow, Heart of Water, Halt, Mass Snake's Swiftness at character level 5.

At higher levels, your buff abilities will go through the roof.

For reference, here's CantripNs Guide to Transmutation spells. I hope I'm not violating any rule by linking to it...

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870586/CantripNs_Guide_to_Transmutation_Spells:_Gods_Gift s

[macdaddy]

Initially I considered a transmuter, but ultimately decided against it. As a fighter wizard, it is a brilliant choice, as the sole mage in the party not as much.

A lot of the spells only affect the caster. Fist of stone is a great example of that, as is nerve skitter.

I would need to have a minimum of three transmutation spells per spell level. At first and second, the number of such spells that are very useful is rather limited. Third has two great ones with haste and slow, then 4th is kind of limited again.

I thought being a conjurer would be the best of both worlds. Conjurer slots for BC and open slots for buff spells.

[mucco]

Don't go focused, just Transmuter. Keep Enchanting, Abjuration and Illusion, possibly Evocation for Fire Shield+Wall of Force+Contingency, go into War Weaver and enjoy being the Best. Buffer. Ever.

I'd ban Necromancy and Conjuration, for a slightly different wizard that's not going to be a God all over the place. Turn down the power!

[macdaddy]

If war weaver is in tome of battle, then it is not available to me. Otherwise it would be a brilliant choice

[gallagher]

have you considered throwing in unseen seer for a few levels? if you can spare the skillpoints, it is a great PrC. you get a little sneak attack, which is never a bad thing, a good skill selection with extra skill points to take advantage of it, and i think you will get a free metamagic feat out of it

[Particle_Man]

Wait a sec, if you move your stats around you could be a heck of a bard. You would be a great buffer, and you could be a "Face" character too.

[mucco]

Heroes of Battle 112.

It's worth noting to your DM that any (even slightly) optimized Wizard build is going to be ridiculously stronger than any ToB class or build.

[Thespianus]

A lot of the spells only affect the caster. Fist of stone is a great example of that, as is nerve skitter.
Well, Nerveskitter is "one creature", but I see your point.


I thought being a conjurer would be the best of both worlds. Conjurer slots for BC and open slots for buff spells.
I figured the Cleric and especially the Druid would handle the BC stuff, since your party kind of lacks a "party buffer", but at least you've thought about Transmuter and discarded it. I just wanted to make sure that you didn't ignore the option. :)

[gallagher]

Wait a sec, if you move your stats around you could be a heck of a bard. You would be a great buffer, and you could be a "Face" character too.

bard/sublime chord is a strong build that will get you 9th level spells. bring on another prestige class that you can qualify for to progress sublime chords spellcasting and diversify your character!

[2xMachina]

For a Wiz, why Cha over Wisdom? I'd go for 14 Wis, 10 Cha, cause Cha is pretty useless. Wis improves Will save, and while you don't need more, it's always good to have it.

EDIT: Hmm, now that they mention it, a bard can be a pretty good buffer. Pop in Dragonfire Inspiration for massive damage boost. Need to be Dragonblooded tho.

[Slipperychicken]

For a Wiz, why Cha over Wisdom? I'd go for 14 Wis, 10 Cha, cause Cha is pretty useless. Wis improves Will save, and while you don't need more, it's always good to have it.

EDIT: Hmm, now that they mention it, a bard can be a pretty good buffer. Pop in Dragonfire Inspiration for massive damage boost. Need to be Dragonblooded tho.

+1 to this. What are planning to do with that Charisma, anyway? I would suggest 10/14/14/18/14/13 (before racials) myself, because Wis>Cha>Str for a Wizard.


If you ever feel worried about your spellbook, you could take the Eidetic Spellcaster variant, and is especially good for jailbreak-style situations, when your spellbook isn't available. Improved Initiative is always a good choice, you may even want to swap out Cloudy Conjuration for it, since lots of enemies are immune to Sickening. Quicken spell is a great choice, since it lets you cast twice per round. Uncanny Forethought (http://dndtools.eu/feats/exemplars-of-evil--64/uncanny-forethought--3009/) is *wonderful*, since it lets you cast spontaneously and reduce some casting times to full-round actions. Speaking of which, the Spontaneous Divination variant (only costs the 5th level bonus feat) means you never have to prepare divinations ever again, freeing up more slots.

[macdaddy]

The reason I discarded bard, is that dragonfire inspiration is banned. Also, the majority of bard buffs that increase inspire courage are unavailable. The best I could do would be the 1st level Inspire spell. Giving the party +3 hit/dmg at 2nd level would turn my DM fuchsia. As long as I had access to the feat that increases bard song by +1 and future access to the magic item that increases it by +1, I would definitely do a bard/sublime chord build.

Ideally I would have liked to be a Gish, ie the 3rd fighter. But with 3 fighters already in the party, and the druid available once he hits 5th/6th that is unnecessary.

With no mu's in the party, I felt it is a role that I should fill. A transmuter seems to be limited to buff/debuff, and without warweaver, it seems kind of limited. A conjurer can be a little more versatile. Battlefield control, debuff, limited buffs, even some offensive spells. Basically gives me a little more flexibility to be useful even though I am a focused specialist. Also, there are no archers/blasters in the party, so having the ability to obscure via spells and cloudy conjuration seems like a large secondary benefit.

I keep looking at other combos as the party's primary wizard, and keep coming back to conjurer.

I put the 14 on CHR over wisdom because I saw no real benefit either way. But you are right, putting it on Wis gives me SOME benefit in the form of will saves if nothing else. I probably had it in CHr from when I considered the Beguiler/wizard/ultimate magus build and wanted the extra buff for the skills.

[macdaddy]

Hmm. I re-re-read malconvoker and the malconvoker handbook. I think this class does actually add something, especially at later levels as the druid tails off.

So, My thoughts are to start off as a versatile caster, using some buffs and BFC spells (clouds and such), then move into malconvoker in the later levels. This would also give me some use out of that 3rd 14 stat, as it would be useful in charisma for the bluff bonus.

Human (or strongheart hafling)

1. Focused Specialist Conjurer - lose evocation, enchantment, and necromancy
lose familiar for Rapid Summoning
Feats: Cloudy Conjuration, Spell Focus(Conjuration), Scribe Scroll
2. Conjurer
3. Conjurer - Feat: Extend Spell
4. Conjurer
5. Conjurer - Feat: Sculpt Spell
6. Master Specialist - Feat: MetaMagic School Focus(Conj),
7. Master Specialist -
8. Master Specialist - Greater Spell Focus (Conj)
9. Master Specialist -Feat: Augment Summoning, summoned critters get +caster level in hit points.
10-15. MalConvoker (Open feat at 12(persist or quicken?), feat at 15 needs to be Spell Focus (trans) for archmage class requirement
17-20. Arch Mage (Master Sculpter, Spell like ability, Arcane Reach). Maybe use open feat at 18 for chain spell?


So I end up with
Focused Specialist Conjurer(5)/ Master Specialist(4)/MalConvoker(6)/Arch Mage(5).

Perhaps not the most powerful build, but it certainly has a lot of flexibility. The sculpt spells will be pretty versatile at the early/mid levels. By the time I get into MalConvoker, I will have 5th level spells, good for some more powerful summons.

[macdaddy]

Any comments?

[Thespianus]

Any comments?

Just that you seem to have strayed a bit from your initial position:

I will pretty much avoid monster summoning

;)

You are investing heavily in Summoning. I would probably have worked Improved Initiative in there at an early stage, because nothing says Battlefield Control like going first. ;)

If you're not desperate to keep Cloudy Conjuration, I would suggest Improved Initiative instead of that feat at level 1, and I kind of wonder how often you will actually use Extend Spell. Grab Augment Summoning earlier, because that's when they will be useful. Then pick something like the Summon Elemental reserve feat later on, having an elemental around all the time can be very handy. and fun. And you get a +1 CL on Summoning spells. ;)

Oh, well, I just realized that you need another Meta-magic feat in order to grab Sculpt Spell.

Ok, I would swap Cloudy Conjuration for Improved Initiative, then, and then ask my DM to be able to retrain Extend Spell for Quicken Spell at a later level. Unless you really want to use Persisted spells.

[macdaddy]

You seem to have strayed a bit from your initial position


You are right! That's because I am stuck in analysis paralysis. :) I went through the malconvoker again, and gave it some thought. With a melee heavy party, and summoned animals by the Druid, I doubt if any summoned monsters I get would be able to get into the fray. I read a posting about someone's experience with it, and while they liked it, they admitted that they had that problem in addition to the monsters not able to do too much to opponents due to the level difference.

So... back to the drawing board :(

I re-read cloudy conjuration, and you are right. Its not all that. Any sickened critter can just take a 5ft step and avoid the effects. So all it really does is give some cover to me, to avoid being shot, for 1 round. Not terribly impressive.

Improved initiative is more important. He who hits first, wins :smallcool:

I could drop extend spell and take something like quicken instead, but at least I will be able to use Extend before 11th level. Its not a terribly bad feat to have (extended rope trick at level 5 or 6 provides a good camp. Extended mage armor at the same level gives me coverage for about a day). Not great, but has uses.

So, I think the first 8 levels can be planned out like this:

1. Wizard(Focused Specialist Conjurer), Spell Focus(Conj), Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll
2. Wizard
3. Wizard - Extend Spell
4. Wizard
5. Wizard - Sculpt Spell
6. Master Specialist - Meta Magic School Focus(Conj)
7. Master Specialist
8. Master Specialist
9. ???

So now I am unsure of what to do starting at 9th level. I could:
1. take a 4th level of Master Specialist for +1hp per caster level to summons, take a feat that then allows me to get into another prestige class that would provide some benefit. But what prestige class?

2. take a level of paragnostic apostle, a knowledge focus feat, then move into Lore Master at 10th. This would have the side benefit of doubling the bonus of my Lore ability (2 x (paragnostic level + loremaster level) )+ int modifier

3.Something completely different... :)

Any ideas on how to cap this off?

I considered getting to level Master Specialist level 10. However, it seems that the levels between 3 and 10 are filled with nothing. The 10th level ability for a conjurer is pretty powerful, but its a long way to get there. There must be something else that you can get earlier that is worth it.

BTW - Incantatrix and Seven Fold Veil are NOT allowed.

[Thespianus]

I know, I get stuck in analysis paralysis all the time. It's terrible.

Then again, you could just keep piling on Wizard and Master Specialist levels. Lore Master isn't bad either.