Persisted Time Stop

[Campbellk8105]

I believe this works, but am not entirely positive.

A couple questions.
1. Does this actually work.

2. Can you use time during the persisted time stop to develop an Epic Spell. Provided you get the necessary materials and everything needed for the spell creation.

I don't want to completely over do things by using this all the time, but if I can, its the best way to make an Epic spell in a short amount of time.

[Zaranthan]

Time Stop actually only lasts for 1 round. You have 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions you can take in that time. If you were to persist it, you would get 1d4+1 rounds of actions over the course of 24 hours.

[Suddo]

Yes and no.
Yes you can cast Persistant Time Stop. The effect how ever is debateable.
My favorite F*** YOU to the guy would be to say that Persist effect the real world duration of the spell so you get about 6 rounds over the next 24 hours. Then again what else is a wizard suppose to do but try it out.

Edit: Swordsages everywhere.

[Stegyre]

"Personal or fixed range spell" -- Check. Time Stop is personal range.

Neither discharged nor instantaneous -- Check.

It meets the RAW requirements. While the argument about the spell's actual duration and effect have some merit, you have at least as good an argument that, as the only listed duration is the "apparent time," that's what you get.

The only obstacles I can see are the +6 level adjustment for Persist. A cleric with Trickery domain could do this using DMM. An arcane caster is going to need at least six instances of Improved Spell Capacity to pull that off.

The bigger question is, "Why?" As noted, other than using a DMM Persist, this is a tactic only available to a reasonably-high-level epic character. For a substantially lower investment (in levels, feats, etc.), the same character could have his/her/it's own Genesis demi-plane with accelerated time to achieve the same result.

So I guess the TO optimizers would respond that, while feasible, your idea is inefficient.

[CTrees]

Um... hrm.

So yes, the duration is 1d4+1rds of apparent time. However, contrary to what Zaranthan states, nowhere is it stated that these 1d4+1rds of apparent time take one round of real time. For instance, you move, cast Time Stop, Time Stop takes effect as soon as you're done casting, then once the apparent duration runs out, the next guy in intiative gets to act. This is exactly the same amount of "real time" taken up as would be if you cast a fireball, which is instantaneous. This is further borne out by enemies not getting to act at all - if you were mearly getting a ton of actions over one round of time, you could do things which provoked AoOs, for instance, and enemies would potentially seem slower, but not stopped. I'd actually rule this as, yes, the Time Stop spell has an apparent duration of 1d4+1rds, but the actual duration, while not printed, is instantaneous, making it ineligible for Persistent Spell.

More directly, and with less guesses as to unwritten rules... Persistent Spell states that the spell's duration becomes 24hrs. Fine. However, it does not in any way modify apparent durations. By strict RAW, the duration of Time Stop is not stated to be instantaneous, so it can be persisted, giving it the 24hr duration, but the apparent duration stays 1d4+1rds.

This gets really friggin' strange when you consider that the "In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds" clause of TS is also unmodified, while you only have 2-5rds of actions... But I think the answer is, "congratulations, wizard. you successfully broke the game so hard that [i]reality itself bluescreened." Or, you know, just say "no."

[Cruiser1]

Q: Assuming you are high enough level to cast a persistent time stop spell, could you use the virtual 24 hours the spell lasts to rest and recover your spells?
A: You can’t make time stop persistent. (Its duration is effectively instantaneous for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat.)
See this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) for the "Main D&D FAQ". This ruling is logical because 24 hour duration Time Stops would be gamebreaking. Of course, what you can do is cast Time Stop within other Time Stops, and get longer duration that way. Use the Absorption trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212739) to never run out of spell slots, allowing yourself to repeat casting Time Stop forever. :smallbiggrin:

[Shadowleaf]

No, you cannot Persist Time Stop. Time Stop is actually an instantaneous spell, hence why the duration clarifies that it is "apparent" time. That's the usual answer anyway.

[Campbellk8105]

Well my biggest question was really the whole, developing an Epic spell within that time.

Yes Time doesn't really stop but, I wanted to cast it to create Epic spells and have them "instantly" where no one else knows what just happened.

My DM has already ruled in our group that the duration is 24hr. We just hold back more or so as to not break it any further.

I do find it odd how my DM/group see things. They see persisted Time Stop as doable, just please don't break it too bad. Yet, Celerity is apparently the most broken and retarded spell available when I started using it. Being able to get an immediate action whenever and cast another spell is just plain stupid in their eyes, regardless of the daze that occurs after it. Oh, and they view Vow of Poverty as, "holy crap, over powered broken awesome feat, and build for a character."

I was just seeing if persisted Time Stop was actually do-able.

[danzibr]

I don't know how RAW handles it, but getting an extra 1d4+1 rounds in 24 hours is just silly given that you're supposed to get super fast.

[Chronos]

Personally, my preferred smackdown is that you retain the same accelerated rate for a full 24 hours, and die of old age long before the duration expires and you get to affect anything else.

[Jack_Simth]

I believe this works, but am not entirely positive.

A couple questions.
1. Does this actually work.

That is up to the individual DM. There's five basic responses that I'm aware of:
1) Yes, it works the way you'd think, you get 24 hours in an instant
2) No, Time stop is effectively instantaneous, and doesn't qualify for persistent spell
3) Yes. You can act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time over the course of the next 24 hours in game. And you can't affect anyone during those 1d4+1 rounds where you can actually act. There's no restriction going the other direction, though. Oh, you did this in the middle of a fight? Roll up a new character....
4) I don't want that kind of munchkinry at my table, no
5) Yes. Over the course of the next 24 hours, you have 1d4+1 rounds that you can insert at any time. You still get your normal set of actions.

The only time WotC actually addressed it, to my knowledge, was in the 3.0 FAQ, which went with option 2. To my knowledge, it wasn't addressed officially in 3.5.


2. Can you use time during the persisted time stop to develop an Epic Spell. Provided you get the necessary materials and everything needed for the spell creation.

This one, assuming a result of 1 on the "Ask your DM" is very much a "yes", as the rounds can be used for anything you'd normally spend rounds on.


I don't want to completely over do things by using this all the time, but if I can, its the best way to make an Epic spell in a short amount of time.
Ah... unless you're planning on chaining these together in a row, or you're planning on using lots of mitigation,

Personally, my preferred smackdown is that you retain the same accelerated rate for a full 24 hours, and die of old age long before the duration expires and you get to affect anything else.
Ah, a 6th. Nifty. I wouldn't try this one, though, as the next character would be an Elan who found a way around aging penalties - Druid-15/Contemplative-5, maybe, to get Time Stop via domain choice.

Alternately, I might point out that it would mostly just age you 1d4+1 days, give or take.... possibly five or ten times that, but still, not more than a few months... and you can explicitly affect unattended objects in that timeframe. I mean, really, if a Full Caster can't set up a Death Scenario around a relatively defenseless target in a few days, they're not trying.

[Acanous]

I'd go with 5, personally. You get 1d4+1 extra rounds, taken whenever you want in the next 24 hours.
That way it's not too broken, and you get some benefit out of your metamagic.

Just as curses shouldn't help the cursed, one's own metamagic should not harm oneself.

[Myth]

This is an old argument we've had before, on this board and others too. Like so much of DnD, the best answer is "it's up to your DM".

Although no, it should not work But Time Stop is an artefact of earlier DnD. Back in AD&D you could harm people in the Time Stops and that was brutal. Time Stop and Anti-Magic Field are just not meant to be logical in 3.5 really.

What about the Chosen of Mystra template? Elminster is immune to Time Stop. How does that work (it's been discussed before too). Consult your DM and break your game like a gentleman - just make your own demiplane or be a Planar Shepherd.