[3.5] Ways to counter/avoid "Discern Shapechanger"?

[Kalmageddon]

I'm having some troubles with this spell. I'll be soon playing a Changeling rogue and I stumble upon this little spell that basically will make any changeling even worst at disguise then a normal human would be.

No spell resistence, no saving throw and even if I don't use the supernatural shapeshifting ability of the changeling while disguising my character I'll be revealed as a shapechanger anyway.

Help? This could very well ruin the campaign for me.

[Psyren]

Bluff and say you're a druid maybe?

Oh wait, it reveals your true form too. I guess you're boned.

[Rockphed]

Ask your DM to be nice and not use it?

[Need_A_Life]

Hope you're a spellcaster, 'cause there's only one way to fight obscure spells: MAGIC!

Specifically non-detection, in this case, which gives you a 50% chance of ignoring their spell with a duration of hour/level rather than round/level.

A ring with this effect should come out to 30,000gp by the books [3Level*5CL*2000], but since a Ring of Mind Shielding has broader effects and more useful effects while costing only 8,000gp, I'd peg a "Immunity to one obscure divination effect" at ~2,000gp and perhaps peg it on a Ring slot.

... still, why do you worry? People would only spend a 3rd level spell detecting this, if they already suspect you. Don't give them a reason to.

[Rubik]

*Lead sheet* STOP REPRESSING MY CULTURE YOU ETHNOCENTRIC BITCH!

Anything that foils divination should work. Mind Blank is always good, and jumping into illithid slayer is even better (since you can let good [mind-affecting] effects through).

Polymorph and Metamorphosis replace your type and any subtypes you might have, so a psychoactive skin of proteus would be good for you.

Is it an area spell? Because if not, Spell Deflection...

Would a spellblade work? Or is that only for targeted effects?

The Vecna-blooded template.

Aren't there rituals in Savage Species that change your type and subtype? Can you find a way to keep your ability to change form without the subtype?

Total cover and concealment?

[edit] Also, DON'T TELL YOUR DM ABOUT THE SPELL.

[Kalmageddon]

... still, why do you worry? People would only spend a 3rd level spell detecting this, if they already suspect you. Don't give them a reason to.

Well there are situation where a cheap 3rd level spell would be considered the bare minimum in terms of security: think about an official matter where my changeling is attending in disguise, or entering a restricted area.
As a changeling spy there are lots of situations where my character could be subjected to such a spell.

Also, I'm not a mage but I have some UMD.

[Hirax]

Heh, this thread makes me happy that an incantatrix I'm fiddling with has that spell persisted. I wouldn't talk to your DM about it until you're sure he knows it exists. If he doesn't know the spell exists, then it doesn't pose a problem. It has a rounds/level duration, which makes it unlikely to be active on anyone at any given time, and even if it is, they need to be have some reason to be concentrating (standard action) to discern any present shapechangers. So if you don't give them reason to concentrate on the spell, you're safe. However, come to think, because of the short duration, any time during which it is active something is likely to have aroused their suspicion, so they likely will be concentrating. Regardless, that's as good as you're likely to get. I don't think slayer or mind blank would do anything. Vecna-blooded might work, but it's unlikely that will be an option.

[Rubik]

Heh, this thread makes me happy that an incantatrix I'm fiddling with has that spell persisted. I wouldn't talk to your DM about it until you're sure he knows it exists. If he doesn't know the spell exists, then it doesn't pose a problem. It has a rounds/level duration, which makes it unlikely to be active on anyone at any given time, and even if it is, they need to be have some reason to be concentrating (standard action) to discern any present shapechangers. So if you don't give them reason to concentrate on the spell, you're safe. However, come to think, because of the short duration, any time during which it is active something is likely to have aroused their suspicion, so they likely will be concentrating. Regardless, that's as good as you're likely to get. I don't think slayer or mind blank would do anything. Vecna-blooded might work, but it's unlikely that will be an option.Could one of you guys post some info about it? I don't know enough specifics of the spell to be able to say for sure.

Also, the slayer capstone, Vecna-blooded, and Mind Blank all kill divination effects that learn info about you directly.

[Kalmageddon]

*Lead sheet* STOP REPRESSING MY CULTURE YOU ETHNOCENTRIC BITCH!

Anything that foils divination should work. Mind Blank is always good, and jumping into illithid slayer is even better (since you can let good [mind-affecting] effects through).

Polymorph and Metamorphosis replace your type and any subtypes you might have, so a psychoactive skin of proteus would be good for you.

Is it an area spell? Because if not, Spell Deflection...

It's not mind affecting, and it's an area spell. It works kinda like a "detect *insert name*" but it doesn't need multiple rounds of concentration and doesn't lists the classical lead sheet counter. It simply makes the caster see your true form if you are a shapechanger.
This is why I doubt that the usual nondetection spell would work... I'm not even sure that you can use mundane disguises to counter this spell.

[Rubik]

It's not mind affecting, and it's an area spell. It works kinda like a "detect *insert name*" but it doesn't need multiple rounds of concentration and doesn't lists the classical lead sheet counter. It simply makes the caster see your true form if you are a shapechanger.
This is why I doubt that the usual nondetection spell would work... I'm not even sure that you can use mundane disguises to counter this spell.Well, Mind Blank, Vecna-blooded, and illithid slayer all work regardless of if an effect is mind-affecting, so long as it's a divination effect.

Also, again, Polymorph and Metamorphosis remove your subtype, so you won't be revealed as a shapechanger.

[Hirax]

Let's just boil this right down, rather than rehashing anything. Basically if you believe mind blank and nondetection also stop true seeing, then it should stop discern shapechanger. I don't believe that to be the case, but your DM may feel differently, which is entirely valid. Vecna-blooded is probably the best option in theory, but for a rogue perhaps not in practice.

edit:



Also, again, Polymorph and Metamorphosis remove your subtype, so you won't be revealed as a shapechanger.

That won't help, the spell isn't limited to affecting creatures with the subtype.

[Psyren]

Could one of you guys post some info about it? I don't know enough specifics of the spell to be able to say for sure.

It's in Spell Compendium. It targets the caster and, if they take a standard action to concentrate anytime during the spell's duration, they instantly know if any shapechangers are in 60 feet. They can then "examine" the shapechanger and immediately know its true form, as well as whether it is polymorphed, transmuted, or disguised.

A "shapechanger" is defined as follows:


For the purpose of this spell, a shapechanger is any creature with the shapechanger type, or a supernatural or extraordinary ability that allows it to assume an alternate form. A wizard who knows alter self is not a shapechanger (since a spell is not a supernatural or extraordinary ability), but a barghest is (since it has the supernatural ability to assume alternate forms, even though its type is outsider).

Changelings are screwed on both counts, because they have the shapechanger subtype and Minor Change Shape is supernatural. I suggested the druid bluff because they would ping on this spell's radar (Wild shape fits the second criteria.) However, the "examine to reveal true form" clause kicks that in the pants.


Also, Vecna-Blooded works, but it's impossible to get unless Vecna gives it to you himself. Tricky git.

[Kalmageddon]

It's an Eberron campaign, there is no Vecna.
I honesly don't know why they would put such a spell into the Races of Eberron manual, it makes a whole load of options presented in that same manual totally useless.

Would the "Racial emulation" feat work? It says I emulate the creature's subtype, so that would cancel my shapechanger subtype if i turned into, say, an elf?

Awww ****, I didn't read the feat until the end... It makes you retain the shapechanger subtype... nevermind.

[Rubik]

Wow. That really screws changelings over badly. I guess there's always dragonborn, though it'll screw you too.

[Psyren]

You're right, it's in RoE too. Unfortunately, it's just as borked there. The only difference is that they bumped it up to 3rd-level, and the material component isn't expensive anymore.


Would the "Racial emulation" feat work? It says I emulate the creature's subtype, so that would cancel my shapechanger subtype if i turned into, say, an elf?

No, you specifically retain the shapechanger subtype with racial emulation. Even if you lost it, the second clause would still defeat you.

[Kalmageddon]

This is giving me a headache.
How can a 3rd level spell be so strong? True seeing isn't this annoying!

[Rubik]

This is giving me a headache.
How can a 3rd level spell be so strong? True seeing isn't this annoying!Are there any AoE effects that screw up concentration for people around you without any other discernible effects?

[Kalmageddon]

Well I could use the cabinet trickster's mind tricks, sure, but any situation that calls for a discern shapechanger wouldn't be defused by this. Imagine, an npc suspects me or has orders to make sure that no changelings are around, he uses the spell, I use mind trick and he fails to cast the spell.
He would be very suspicious to say the least.

I was hoping for a more passive defence that wouldn't alarm anyone.

[Rubik]

Well I could use the cabinet trickster's mind tricks, sure, but any situation that calls for a discern shapechanger wouldn't be defused by this. Imagine, an npc suspects me or has orders to make sure that no changelings are around, he uses the spell, I use mind trick and he fails to cast the spell.
He would be very suspicious to say the least.

I was hoping for a more passive defence that wouldn't alarm anyone.I was more thinking that there was, say, an AoE effect that prevented casters from concentrating on Duration: Concentration spells nearby, or at least forced really high Concentration checks or something. The Ectoplasmic Shambler power does (twice; both for damaging a nearby caster and as part of the power's description as a separate effect), but it's visible AND damages everyone in the AoE.

[Kalmageddon]

Something like that would be nice if it didn't any damage... I'm losing hope. :smallsigh:

[Psyren]

Lead-lined cloak I guess. It doesn't specify that lead blocks it though.

[Kalmageddon]

It probably doesn't. True seeing is more limited then this effing spell.

[Kalim]

This seems like a much greater concern once it's happened to you, IMO.

As mentioned above, your DM might not even know it exists, or he might not consider using it until you use your Changeling powers abusively enough.

This is one of those spells that ought to be kept on deck for when you need to be caught, as a plot point or as punishment, rather than something to just arbitrarily ruin your day. At least, until high level when the PCs kind of need their days arbitrarily ruined.

[subject42]

I just read the description in the Spc. Here are some basic thoughts:

The spell is 25gp per use. Assuming a 20th level wizard who can extend the spell for free, one casting would last ~4 minutes. At 1,440 minutes in a day, that's 360 castings a day for 24 hour coverage, or 9,000 gold at minimum. Items would bypass that need, but if you look in the DMG/PHB wealth tables, there aren't many places or people in all of Eberron that could afford this sort of thing.

As a result, this is the sort of spell that's going to be used rarely and only when there's sufficient cause to justify the expense. To echo the other posters, don't give any reasons to justify it.

Another thought is that the spell doesn't detect illusions; it only detects a binary shapechanger/not shapechanger state. Blow some resources on a scroll of invisibility and a scroll of major image. If you can't avoid the detection, use both of them to set up a doppleganger that doesn't ping.

As a third thought, hide in somebody else's bag of holding.

[Psyren]

The spell is 25gp per use. Assuming a 20th level wizard who can extend the spell for free, one casting would last ~4 minutes. At 1,440 minutes in a day, that's 360 castings a day for 24 hour coverage, or 9,000 gold at minimum. Items would bypass that need, but if you look in the DMG/PHB wealth tables, there aren't many places or people in all of Eberron that could afford this sort of thing.

Actually - the spell was reprinted in Races of Eberron. It was bumped up from 2nd-level to 3rd, but the material component no longer has a cost - meaning that a caster with Eschew Materials or their component pouch can keep it going all day.

Worse, it's Personal range, so it can be Persisted.


Another thought is that the spell doesn't detect illusions; it only detects a binary shapechanger/not shapechanger state. Blow some resources on a scroll of invisibility and a scroll of major image. If you can't avoid the detection, use both of them to set up a doppleganger that doesn't ping.

You're onto something here - being invisible will keep them from seeing your true form. They will still know there is a shapechanger nearby though, and that might be reason enough to whip out See Invisibility.


As a third thought, hide in somebody else's bag of holding.

Don't forget your Bottle of Air if you go this route.

[Kalmageddon]

I'll try to explain why hiding isn't an option: it's not the concept behind this character.

This character doesn't sneak into places, he takes a suitable identity and enters through the front door, greets the doorman, winks at the guards and does what he's there to do in front of everyone without anyone suspecting a thing.

Now, this spell is a 3rd level spell that can easly and cheaply be made into a wand. The spell itself only lasts for a few rounds, but all you need to do is use it in key moments. Up until now I had a counter to every security measure, be it mundane or magical. Sure, some of them might be challenging but that's part of the fun..

With this spell however... Why wouldn't an npc use it? It's cheap, it's low level and it makes the most dangerous spies in all Eberron totally useless.

[Mystify]

Yeah, once again magic trumps everything. Things like this are why I never make my disguise characters changelings or doppleganers in 3.5. Sure, they are better at it, but they are more easily foiled. A mundane disguise, on the other hand, stands up to magical scrutiny. And in a magic-centered setting, passing the magical scrutiny means you probably pass all scrutiny.

[Psyren]

The fact that they specifically reprinted it in an Eberron sourcebook seems to indicate that they intended it as a counter to Changelings too.

I'm wondering if Nondetection might work (UMD'd of course.) It says "if a divination is attempted against the warded creature," which seems a bit broader than targeting you with one. But even then you would only have a chance of success.

[Lapak]

With this spell however... Why wouldn't an npc use it? It's cheap, it's low level and it makes the most dangerous spies in all Eberron totally useless.'Cheap' and 'low-level' are relative terms. A wand of a 3rd level spell (with a material component worth 25 gp a pop) is going to run 6,875 gp per wand. Plus you need to hire someone capable of triggering the wand to use it as a guard.

Even in a relatively magic-rich world, that's not such chump change that you're going to be using it 24/7. It's going to be reserved for especially high-security situations - and yes, your character should have a harder time slipping through in those circumstances!

Also, changelings are a fact of life in Eberron and as I understand it relatively few of them walk around unshapeshifted as a matter of course - even the ones at an important event for perfectly legitimate reasons. A guard who shakes down every single changeling he detects is going to seriously offend someone in high society sooner or later. If you're worried about the spell, make sure that your normal disguise and credentials pass a slightly-more-than-casual inspection while not glossing over the fact that you're a changeling and you'll be fine.

[subject42]

It seems like changing your type would be the best bet. Here's a short list of spells I found that would help with that. All of them are in the SpC because that's what I have open right now.

Plant Body (Druid 5)
Aspect of the Earth Hunter (Druid 6, Ranger 4)
Aspect of the Wolf (Druid 1, Ranger 1)
Body of War (Wizard 7)
Displacer Form (Wizard 4)
Holy/Infernal Transformation (Cleric 7)
Holy/Infernal Transformation, Lesser (Cleric 4)
Greater Visage of the Deity (Cleric 9)
Wild Runner (Druid 4, Ranger 4)

In the MiC, there's the "Baneblind" enhancement which renders you imperceptible to a specific creature type. If you can safely assume that most mages are humans it might buy you a panic button.

Additionally, you have even worse problems with "Detect Favored Enemy", I think.

[Jeraa]

With this spell however... Why wouldn't an npc use it? It's cheap, it's low level and it makes the most dangerous spies in all Eberron totally useless.

No it doesn't. It only lasts 1 round per level, and has a 25gp material component. Even an Extended Discern Shapechanger cast by a 20th level wizard only lasts 4 minutes. He would need 15 of those just to have it up for an hour.

Its only really useful when you already know there is a shapechanger near you, and you want to figure out who it is. Don't give them a reason to suspect a shapechanger, and you won't have to worry about the spell.

[Psyren]

'Cheap' and 'low-level' are relative terms. A wand of a 3rd level spell (with a material component worth 25 gp a pop) is going to run 6,875 gp per wand. Plus you need to hire someone capable of triggering the wand to use it as a guard.

Also, changelings are a fact of life in Eberron and as I understand it relatively few of them walk around unshapeshifted as a matter of course - even the ones at an important event for perfectly legitimate reasons. A guard who shakes down every single changeling he detects is going to seriously offend someone in high society sooner or later. If you're worried about the spell, make sure that your normal disguise and credentials pass a slightly-more-than-casual inspection while not glossing over the fact that you're a changeling and you'll be fine.

Couple of nitpicks:

- As I said above, the 3rd-level version (in RoE) does not have a costly material component. Only the 2nd-level version (in SpC) does. It's DM's choice which one would apply here, though given that it's an Eberron game, the Eberron version of the spell will likely be favored (if not simply both of them.)

- Both versions are low enough to be placed into Eternal Wands, which could then be used by anyone with the slightest bit of Magical Training. Or a sufficiently paranoid person could get the spells into a different kind of item.

- I think you're mistaken about Changelings - they are almost universally mistrusted and treated as second-class citizens if their true nature is known. They have a reputation for being liars, troublemakers and thieves all over Khorvaire (though how much that reputation is deserved is open to interpretation.)

"Often mistrusted and rarely at ease" - RoE 41
"Living as a changeling brings suspicion and distrust" - RoE 43
"Viewed with suspicion and distrust" - RoE 52


No it doesn't. It only lasts 1 round per level, and has a 25gp material component. Even an Extended Discern Shapechanger cast by a 20th level wizard only lasts 4 minutes. He would need 15 of those just to have it up for an hour.

Or he can Persist it for 24 hours. This option wouldn't be available to a most guards, but you mentioned a 20th-level wizard so I just wanted to point that out.


It seems like changing your type would be the best bet. Here's a short list of spells I found that would help with that. All of them are in the SpC because that's what I have open right now.

I haven't read all of those, but for them to work, they would have to (a) change your subtype too, and (b) remove the "Minor Change Shape" supernatural ability all Changelings possess.

[subject42]

I haven't read all of those, but for them to work, they would have to (a) change your subtype too, and (b) remove the "Minor Change Shape" supernatural ability all Changelings possess.

Crap. I had it in my head that Minor shape change was an extraordinary ability.

[Lapak]

Nitpicks of nitpicks! :smallwink:

Couple of nitpicks:

- As I said above, the 3rd-level version (in RoE) does not have a costly material component. Only the 2nd-level version (in SpC) does. It's DM's choice which one would apply here, though given that it's an Eberron game, the Eberron version of the spell will likely be favored (if not simply both of them.)That actually means that the price will be closer together for each of them, so it matters less which version is used. Both slightly cheaper than I was thinking, though.

- Both versions are low enough to be placed into Eternal Wands, which could then be used by anyone with the slightest bit of Magical Training. Or a sufficiently paranoid person could get the spells into a different kind of item.An Eternal Wand is not going to be the solution they want; at 1 min/caster level two charges isn't even going to get you through the receiving line for a decent-sized social event let alone an all-day guarding duty. Either they want a regular wand (which they'd have to replace often) or an Eternal Wand with a higher caster level, or an always-on item. Any of those options are going to cost quite a bit in the long run. As for Magical Training, either you're hiring low-level guards who are less effective as guards because they wasted one of their only feats on being able to use the enemy-detectors, or you're hiring casters, or you're hiring higher-level guards who have the feats to burn. All of those options cost, too. It's not going to be an omnipresent countermeasure; it just costs too much.


- I think you're mistaken about Changelings - they are almost universally mistrusted and treated as second-class citizens if their true nature is known. They have a reputation for being liars, troublemakers and thieves all over Khorvaire (though how much that reputation is deserved is open to interpretation.)

"Often mistrusted and rarely at ease" - RoE 41
"Living as a changeling brings suspicion and distrust" - RoE 43
"Viewed with suspicion and distrust" - RoE 52I'll grant that, but my reading of 'viewed with suspicion' doesn't mean 'automatically assumed to be kicked out' - especially if the actual disguise you're using is identifying AS a changeling with a legitimate reason to be where you are. The counter-balance of automatic suspicion is that people may actually be LESS cautious about you once they think they have solved the mystery of who you are. So don't worry about it being everywhere you want to go, and if you have reason to believe it will be somewhere there are still steps you can take to work around it.

EDIT: 'You' here being the OP, not Psyren, obviously.

[Psyren]

Crap. I had it in my head that Minor shape change was an extraordinary ability.

Unfortunately, (Ex) abilities ping too, so that wouldn't have helped.

It seems almost designed to hose Changelings.

[subject42]

Unfortunately, (Ex) abilities ping too, so that wouldn't have helped.

It seems almost designed to hose Changelings.

It really does, seem that way.

Most of those spells that I listed have "you lose extraordinary abilities granted by your type" clauses, though. That was the main impetus for suggesting them.

Unfortunately, the fact that it's a supernatural renders it moot.

[Kalmageddon]

I appreciate the suggestions nonetheless, subject42.
You know, the main problem I have with this spell is that it doesn't simply counter changelings, it makes them worst then humans as spies. If the spell simply negated the advantage of Minor shape change (as True seeing, a 6th level spell, does) I would be fine with it, I can still use mundane equipment to disguise my character who has obviously invested heavly in the disguise skill, but this spells basically makes being a changeling a negative point for a spy, which in my mind doesn't make sense.
Does this setting wants us to use the new cool race? If so why is there a low level spell that makes the same race less of a spy then a human or halfling or wathever?

Anyway I'll try to convince the DM to allow my character to purchase a custom made ring or something that gives a daily use of Mislead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mislead.htm), that way I can avoid this spell with some luck, if the whoever casts it doesn't also have See invisibility active. This is the best I could come up with, what do you think?

[Psyren]

I think you shouldn't mention the spell at all. It's not likely to come up at most tables anyway.

[Voyager_I]

Unfortunately, (Ex) abilities ping too, so that wouldn't have helped.

It seems almost designed to hose Changelings.

I'm getting the distinct impression the spell was specifically designed to let canny PCs catch on to Changelings without much thought given to how frustrating it could be against PCs that happened to be Changelings.

[shaga]

A player I know had a similar problem when he realized the Detect magic pings on his supernatural ability. I pointed to him that he could easily bluff his way out of detect magic, after all its just a transmutation minor aura, it could be a bull strength or other buff but he ended up hating the race.

If we had find THIS spell it would have definitely ruined him but I would like to point out this is a LA +0 race. You get a bunch of stuff like bonuses on saves and skills in addition to a supernatural ability that gives you +10 on disguise and yet you have +0 level adjustment so for me it makes sense for a low level spell to be able not only to strip you of those bonuses but to give you a penalty as well.

Back on topic, you should also consider that before infiltrating a high security area the “spy” should gather information about its security. You could learn witch guards or check point have such a spell and find a way to avoid them. If you just ‘take a suitable identity’ and try to stroll through a secure place you are doing it wrong

[sonofzeal]

Vecna-Blooded or another method of being immune to divinations should work.

Really though, I think this weakness is intended. A while ago I helped in a campaign with a Changeling ex-PC villain, and it occured to me that there's virtually nothing that can catch or stop them doing pretty much anything they want. In an intrigue-heavy game, Changelings can be nigh-unstoppable - and can force the game to become intrigue-heavy simply by virtue of their race.

How do you track down someone who could be anyone? How do you prevent them from stealing all your secrets? How do you prevent them from passing on faulty orders?

Changelings need a weak spot like "Discern Shapechange". The ability is simply too powerful otherwise. No other racial trait that I know of from any other LA+0 race has such a big effect on the game.

What I'm saying is, take your lumps. Everything has a failure point, just be glad you know yours.

[Psyren]

Vecna-blooded is a non-solution - even if he did exist in Eberron, his template is impossible to get as his aspect/avatar has no blood for the ritual. He simply created it because he's the biggest 'tease in the pantheon.

[sonofzeal]

Vecna-blooded is a non-solution - even if he did exist in Eberron, his template is impossible to get as his aspect/avatar has no blood for the ritual. He simply created it because he's the biggest 'tease in the pantheon.
Trickery-blooded? That might be even harder though, given the nature of Eberronian deities...

[Psyren]

Yeah, I doubt any of them have aspects or avatars.