The Drow as They Should Have Been

[Palanan]

For a deep, dark part of my campaign I'm trying to come up with a cave-dwelling race of elves, something entirely different from standard drow. I had some great advice from the Playground while working up my variant woodland drow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231651), and I could use that sort of feedback here.

I've never really liked the standard drow, for a lot of reasons. Cave-dwelling creatures usually lose their pigment completely, rather than turning obsidian-black. I know there's fluff for that, but it's never really satisfied me. Standard drow society is likewise not what I'm going for here.

What I have in mind are pallid, globe-eyed creatures, cautious and clever but unsophisticated. They have no great cities built on the backs of countless slaves; instead they scavenge and prowl for whatever they can catch in the desolate caverns. They won't have developed darkvision, but instead will rely on sound and scent--and their finely sensitive skin, alive to every breath of motion.

These would not be descendants of the drow, but rather a separate offshoot of elves, driven underground for completely different reasons. They would have essentially no arcane magic, apart from the rare spontaneous caster, and little enough divine. And likely no metallurgy: a forge's fire would be painfully bright to them, and they'd have very little to feed it that they wouldn't want to eat themselves.

I don't see them having much in the way of SLAs, but rather a variety of adaptations to cavern-living, which together might add up to +1 LA. Any ideas?

[Theoboldi]

So you want Falmer with big eyes? :smalltongue:

[SillySymphonies]

Sounds like the Falmer (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Falmer) from The Elders Scrolls V: Skyrim.

The concept is rather similar to Richard Sharpe Shaver's dero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sharpe_Shaver#The_Shaver_Mystery) (D&D's derro (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/derro.htm)).

[Morph Bark]

A major difference being of course that Falmer are blind, whilst these would not be. Superior low-light vision perhaps, though?

[Theoboldi]

A major difference being of course that Falmer are blind, whilst these would not be. Superior low-light vision perhaps, though?

The way he described it though, it sounds like they should also get blindsense or even blindsight.

[Morph Bark]

The way he described it though, it sounds like they should also get blindsense or even blindsight.

Alternatively, tremorsense, but that would need some penalties if it would be to make a race LA+1.

Something like only activating after not moving for one round and being limited to 15 ft or something.

[Palanan]

Actually, I hadn't heard of the Falmer before. I only know Skyrim exists because it comes up on the Playground. :smalltongue:

And I'm definitely thinking of something like blindsense, although falling short of full blindsight. I'd also like to include a "heat sense," if that isn't already part of blindsense. The caverns where they live are damp and cool, usually with very little change in temperature, and I'm thinking they might be able to feel the warmth of a creature within about ten feet or so. Not sure if this would fold into blindsense, or if it would be a separate trait.

And yes, definitely good low-light vision, although not true darkvision. Their eyes won't have degenerated, and their other senses will have become keener as well. Probably Scent would be appropriate, if this doesn't bump up the LA too far.

[Namfuak]

Actually, I hadn't heard of the Falmer before. I only know Skyrim exists because it comes up on the Playground. :smalltongue:

And I'm definitely thinking of something like blindsense, although falling short of full blindsight. I'd also like to include a "heat sense," if that isn't already part of blindsense. The caverns where they live are damp and cool, usually with very little change in temperature, and I'm thinking they might be able to feel the warmth of a creature within about ten feet or so. Not sure if this would fold into blindsense, or if it would be a separate trait.

And yes, definitely good low-light vision, although not true darkvision. Their eyes won't have degenerated, and their other senses will have become keener as well. Probably Scent would be appropriate, if this doesn't bump up the LA too far.

If you plan on giving them Low-light vision anyway, they could have blindsight at 10 feet and blindsense at 40, fluffing it to them being able to sense the heat of creatures that is outside the norm of the caverns.

[Palanan]

Interesting idea, although in practice that might get a little complicated to run, especially if there's a group of them. Worth thinking about, though.

Would that affect the LA? I'd like to keep it at +1, and I'm open to ideas about offsets and penalties. I'm thinking a -4 Charisma penalty, because they will not be good at interacting with other races.

[Serpentine]

I support this idea. It's always bugged me that the subterranean versions of races are dark instead of pale, too.

I think you need to make a decision on the subject of vision. Cave-dwelling creatures will get bigger and bigger eyes, and bigger and bigger dark-vision... but at some point the eyes will just disappear because of uselessness (or they're two alternate possible directions of evolution, either way). I think you'll have really good darkvision and significant improvement in the other senses, OR no vision at all and a whole lot of improvement in the other senses.
Of course, this assumes an entirely subterranean existance...

It's been a while since I studied cave animals. The only other thing that comes immediately to mind is the fact that caves are generally low-nutrient ecosystems. So your elves would likely have slow metabolisms requiring little nutrients, and would scavenge anything that came along.

Some climbing ability would make sense, too...

edit: Bioluminescence is a darkness thing, too. In a magical universe, that might translate as a natural ability to use Dancing Lights or similar.

[avr]

Scent can come from the Hunter's Sense stance. A guild or caste of hunters might teach an appropriate ToB class or the required feats, if you don't want to give it to every primitive drow. Have you got a name for them, BTW?

Heat sense should probably either be blindsense (feeling heat) or not range limited; one of the sillier things about infravision was the range limitation, IR photons don't stop moving 60' or whatever from their source. Darkvision has its own problems but does dodge that one.

Aside from senses, what sort of abilities were you thinking of for them? Good sight and nothing else won't be up to LA+1, let alone breaking that barrier.

[ericgrau]

+2 dex, -2 con, -2 cha (I think -4 cha prevents even rare drow sorcerers). Drow share the build of their elven ancestors but prowl cautiously around other creatures.
Blindsense 60': Drow can sense the precise location of other creatures via their sound and scent. Negating either sense negates the blindsense. While they know which square a foe is in they still face the normal penalties for concealment when attacking.
Blind fight: Drow gain blind fight as a bonus feat thanks to their attunement to the dark and practice with their blindsense.
+4 racial bonus to listen checks. Due to their time spent in the dark, drow have especially keen hearing but lack the visual acuity of their elven ancestors.
Low light vision.
Scent: Drow can recognize familiar scents as a person recognizes a familiar face. If for some reason a drow's blindsense is negated but not his sense of smell he can notice creatures within 30' by their smell. He can spend a move action to determine the direction of the smell or if it is within 5' he discovers its precise location instead. Drow with the track feat can track via scent, ignoring surface conditions and poor visibility.
Favored Class: Ranger
Level adjustment: +1

I think the above still needs 1-3 more abilities to get them up to LA 1. Since the OP hasn't specified anything more I'll leave it open instead of filling something in myself. I might suggest camouflage (a hide bonus, maybe +8, when surrounded by natural earth). I'll note that even when the blindsense is negated a listen check or the scent ability provide pretty good ways to find foes too.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by avr
...IR photons don't stop moving 60' or whatever from their source.

No, but they do disperse along an inverse square. And I don't think these cave-elves will be sensitive enough to detect the photons themselves, not like sunlight. I'm thinking more of the warming effect on local air currents that another creature's body would have. The cave-elves would sense a breath of curiously warm air, a tickle of motion and transferred heat.


Originally Posted by Serpentine
I support this idea. It's always bugged me that the subterranean versions of races are dark instead of pale, too.

This has always been a gripe of mine about the drow. It makes no sense, because their bodies are spending energy to maintain pigments that do them no good. The fluff about the curse always seemed like a very contrived bit of retconning to me, although I haven't really delved into it.

And, spot-on comments about the lack of nutrients in real caves. Most cave ecosystems are almost entirely dependent on detritus, and bat colonies can end up being the major source of nutrients. (One of the episodes of Planet Earth made this point in really squishy detail. :smalleek:) I have a few notions for other lifeforms in these particular caves, so these elves won't require too much of a different metabolism; but it'll be a sparse existence, and they'll definitely have tough stomachs.

Also, good call about the climbing talent. I'm also thinking they may have a bit of a knack for slipping into freshwater pools, where blind fish and cave fish might live. Not sure what kind of bonus to apply for that.


Originally Posted by ericgrau
*solid chassis*

This is excellent; you've sketched out much of what I'd been thinking about--and Blind-Fight hadn't occurred to me, although it should have. The bonus to Listen checks is exactly what I had in mind.

For the ability modifiers, I hear you on the Charisma penalty; I'd thought about its effect on bards, sorcerers, etc., although for the society I have in mind those classes will be extremely rare. You read my mind about ranger as their favored class--it fits perfectly. Tracking by scent is ideal, and nicely creepy.

I would rather give the -2 to Strength rather than Con, though, since these creatures will need to be tough, wiry things to survive where they are. They won't need brute force to capture most of what they're eating (fungi, larvae, small fish, etc.) but they will need an iron gut, and probably a +4 bonus on saves against poison. I'd also give them a +4 bonus on Move Silently, since that will be a vital survival skill.

So, does all this bring it up to +1 LA, or do we have room for more options? I'm open to ideas on other traits to include, as well as potential penalties. I'm thinking a -4 penalty for light sensitivity, since they'll hardly ever see anything brighter than glowworms or phosphorescent fungi.
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[umbergod]

drow were never retconned to be cursed, its all part of their fluff. they were cursed when they were on the surface still, and escaped to the only place they could, underground. race wide godcurse>any sort of evolution from all that time spent underground. just my 2c

[Namfuak]

They should probably have a +2 bonus to Wisdom, mechanically because it's hard to justify LA+1 when there are more negative stats than positive, and fluffily because they are supposed to have super-senses.

[ericgrau]

I would rather give the -2 to Strength rather than Con, though, since these creatures will need to be tough, wiry things to survive where they are. They won't need brute force to capture most of what they're eating (fungi, larvae, small fish, etc.) but they will need an iron gut, and probably a +4 bonus on saves against poison. I'd also give them a +4 bonus on Move Silently, since that will be a vital survival skill.

So, does all this bring it up to +1 LA, or do we have room for more options? I'm open to ideas on other traits to include, as well as potential penalties. I'm thinking a -4 penalty for light sensitivity, since they'll hardly ever see anything brighter than glowworms or phosphorescent fungi.
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Ya use whatever ability scores fit your fluff. Light sensitivity makes sense, but I might do a -2 to attack rolls so that they aren't totally worthless the moment someone casts daylight. I mean they could close their eyes and blindsense/blindfight it, but that's not much better than a -4. Like regular drow they could also become blind for a round in bright light.

I think all that is in the ballpark of LA 1 I think but a little on the low end so you could leave it like that or add a little more if you wanted. The thing about adding skill bonuses and situational save bonuses is that they're situational. They only go so far. I think something like the above +2 wis would put the race at a nice level of power and it matches useful skills, ranger spells and some other things.

Copy, paste, edit:


+2 dexterity, +2 wisdom, -2 strength, -4 charisma (or -2). Drow are sly creatures that have keen awareness of their surroundings but prowl cautiously and suspiciously around other creatures.
A drow's base land speed is 30 feet.
Blindsense 60': Drow can sense the precise location of other creatures via their sound and scent. Negating either sense negates the blindsense. While they know which square a foe is in they still face the normal penalties for concealment when attacking.
Blind fight: Drow gain blind fight as a bonus feat thanks to their attunement to the dark and practice with their blindsense.
+4 racial bonus to listen and move silently checks. Due to their time spent in the dark, drow have especially keen hearing but lack the visual acuity of their elven ancestors. They likewise are well practiced at avoiding the ears of others.
+4 racial bonus to saving throws against poison. Drow have an iron stomach to survive the fungi and small critters that fill their diet.
Low light vision: A drow can see twice as far in poor illumination.
Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds viewing the lit area they face a -2 penalty to attack rolls, spot checks and search checks from a severe dazzled condition.
Scent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent): Drow can recognize familiar scents as a person recognizes a familiar face. If for some reason a drow's blindsense is negated but not his sense of smell he can notice creatures within 30' by their smell. He can spend a move action to determine the direction of the smell or if it is within 5' he discovers its precise location instead. Drow with the track feat can track via scent, ignoring surface conditions and poor visibility.
Favored Class: Ranger
Level adjustment: +1

[Palanan]

Very nice indeed. I think your edited stat block covers most of what I had in mind. There are just a couple things I would add:


+2 to Balance and Climb checks, because they're constantly moving across uneven surfaces, which are often damp and slippery.
+1 racial bonus to all saving throws; the cave-elves have needed to be a touch quicker, tougher and more tenacious simply to survive.

Also, there's the question of what weapon proficiencies they would have, and what fighting styles the rangers would pursue. Archery is completely out; they'll hardly ever see a scrap of wood, and sinew for strings will be too difficult to come by. Slings and bolos would probably be their only real ranged weapons, and maybe some kind of javelin or shortspear, maybe a stone tip on a leather-wrapped femur. Hand weapons might be some kind of stone knives, possibly stone hand-axes.

Are there any alternate ranger weapon styles that could accommodate these? Any other weapons anyone can think of?
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[Anxe]

Sounds like grimlocks to me. They're realistically only +1LA. Take away the racial HD and you get what you want.

[Daftendirekt]

This has always been a gripe of mine about the drow. It makes no sense, because their bodies are spending energy to maintain pigments that do them no good. The fluff about the curse always seemed like a very contrived bit of retconning to me, although I haven't really delved into it.

I dunno, elves cursed with dark skin and red eyes aren't unique to Faerûn. It's the same with the Dunmer in The Elder Scrolls. They used to be the gold-skinned Chimer until Azura cursed them with skin the color of ash, and eyes like fire, because of the betrayal of Nerevar at Red Mountain...

Granted, that may have been inspired by the drow. Who knows.

[JBento]

I just want to chime in on the dark skin (unfortunate connotations aside):

Being pale in utter dark is all dandy in the real world, where there isn't anything that actually sees you. However, the existence of darkvision changes that - since most stuff that lives underground can actually see just as well in utter darkness as people can in broad daylight, camouflage still plays a part. Darkness is mostly irrelevant on the underdark.

[Palanan]

So, here's what we have so far:


Cave-Elf Racial Traits


-2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -4 Cha
Medium Size
Base land speed 30
Blindsense 60'
Blindfight as bonus feat
Scent: detect creatures within 30' by smell; can use scent with Track feat
Low-light vision
Light blindness: blinded 1 round; -4 penalty on subsequent rounds
+4 racial bonus to Listen and Move Silently checks
+2 racial bonus to Balance and Climb checks
+1 racial to all saving throws; additional +4 racial bonus vs. poison
Favored Class: Ranger (no archery style)
Weapon Proficiencies: ...?
Level Adjustment: +1

Looks like all that really needs to be done is work out what weapons they'd be proficient with.