Lesser Orb VS Cloud Knives

[Yuukale]

So guys, I'd like your opinion, which of these two do you like best to deal damage (I know there might be better options out there, but I'm trying to figure out which will be my god's chosen path to deal pain by himself).

I see there's the:
"chained, twinned, admixtured, fell draining lesser orb of x" path
and the
"persisted, twinned, fell draining cloud of knives" path

the first I believe requires more feats to pull (twin, chain, subst, admixt, fell drain) - but how do they fare in comparison on your opinion?

(btw, to make this easier, assume you're a 10th level incantatrix)

thanks =D

[DeAnno]

There are better things to spend effort on than dealing 2 negative levels/turn, even as a free action. Also, the fact that you're going against full AC makes it pretty hard to hit some targets even with the decent bonus.

Damage is nice in that it kills everything, though the upgrade from 5d8 to 15d6 base means it's usually worth it to just use a normal orb.

[FMArthur]

I see little actual danger from 1d6+5 damage per round. The only fearable part of that Cloud of Knives is the Fell Drain bit. If you're just going to stack tons of metamagic on something, you might as well just put it all on an orb of X spell and kill someone rather than play at a gradual-weakening cold war. The caster or target isn't going to last more than one or two rounds of just regular blasting, so unless you are actually disabling something with your offensive action (which Orb of Fire is also good at), what's the point?

[Yuukale]

what made me consider cloud of knives was this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10891237&postcount=20

[sonofzeal]

Here's something from my "Creative Build Request" thread...


Request #13
Character whose main point of focus are the cloud of knives, ring of blades, and similar spells: that is, spells that toss lots of bits of metal into the air which may or may not zing off into targets. Bonus points if they come out with a decent attack bonus and are a spontaneous, rather than prepared, caster.

Comments: for once, I'll do basically what you asked for, since I find the result highly amusing!

Concept: metal bits zinging through the air!
Race/Class: Human Warmage
Components: Ring of Blades spell, Cloud of Knives spell (via Eclectic Learning), Wraithstrike spell, Obtain Familiar feat, Extra Familiar (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Extra_Familiar_(DnD_Feat)) feat as many times as you can take it (yay flaws)
Result: Assuming you go all out, at level 6 you can have six familiars. Rampantly abuse Share Spell, and you've got more metal bits zinging through the air than anyone (especially your enemies) could possibly want!

[Ernir]

Cloud of Knives is pretty cool when you can easily ploink on some extra damage/rider effects, like a Rogue/Wizard type can. And it can be puffed up a bit, as sonofzeal just demonstrated.

But on a generic Incantatrix? I'd rather just blow things up.


what made me consider cloud of knives was this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10891237&postcount=20
What in that build gets him around the spell stacking rules? :smallconfused:

[FMArthur]

what made me consider cloud of knives was this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10891237&postcount=20

Oh, well then that's way different if you're stacking bunches of them. Sorry, I misunderstood before. In this case I do think it's the better option, because the damage will be significant and you'll still have actions to do other things with it. Just don't use up all your spell slots for it or you won't have anything to use your freed-up actions for.

When you say this is for your god's chosen path, do you mean this is for a player character who worships the god, or are you making up an NPC god that's doing this as his routine?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What in that build gets him around the spell stacking rules? :smallconfused:

I've yet to find any rule that would inhibit that build. There's multiple unnamed bonuses from the same source, but Cloud of Knives doesn't grant you any bonuses. There's effect stacking, in which the most recent effect takes precedent, such as when a spell changes your form/size, or multiple mental control effects, or an otherwise redundant effect that grants no additional benefit for being in place twice such as flight.

The Cloud of Knives spell itself allows you to release one of the knives it creates each round as a free action. Multiple instances of the spell would give you multiple instances of this effect. This sort of effect would not supersede a previous instance of the same effect, and it is certainly not redundant if in place multiple times. For each Cloud of Knives effect on your character, you may release one knife per round as a free action. The same goes for multiple Holy Star spells set to offensive mode. Please provide a book and page number that says otherwise, rather than presuming that the multiple redundant effects rules apply to a nonredundant effect.

[Keld Denar]

On that build...an Arcane Thesis would give you a +2 to hit, as well as further reducing the MM cost. Also, would Enlarge Spell give you 60' range?

Yea, it is a normal attack, but you get CL for your BAB and your casting stat to hit along with the built in enhancement bonus. That's a pretty significant bonus to hit, comperable to any full BAB type melee type, and most of them don't have too much issues hitting, especially since you can't PA with them.

As far as the difference between Cloud of Knives and Lesser Orb, that depends....do you have a familiar? If so, all of your efforts are automatically doubled with no effort. Also, if you have a Bard in your party, Cloud of Knives IS a weapon attack, while the Orb is not. Cloud would benefit from Inspire Courage (or better, Dragonfire Inspiration).

So yea, depends on a few factors that can tip the scale significantly.

[Yuukale]

When you say this is for your god's chosen path, do you mean this is for a player character who worships the god, or are you making up an NPC god that's doing this as his routine?

God = what I'm calling my wizard (after treantmonk's roles) - besides, buffing, debuffing and battlefield control, I feel like I could (perhaps should) have at least one good way to dish serious damage (and with fell drain, I'm also debuffing seriously).

This is what I'm planning for the build, I've posted it before but I don't feel like necroing an old thread on behalf of a question that might even interest many more if posted as a new thread:


He'll get Iron Will from Otyugh Hole before level 5, already settled this with the DM. I'm waiting the campaign to begin so I can see if he'll allow Item familiar (so, assume it's a no-can-do right now)

1/Conjurer 1 Abrupt Jaunt; Scribe Scroll; Spell Focus: Conjuration
2/Conjurer 2
3/Conjurer 3 Extend Spell
4/Conjurer 4
5/Conjurer 5 Spontaneous divination

6/Incantatrix 1 Focused Study (Necromancy); Fell Drain(b); Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration
7/Incantatrix 2
8/Incantatrix 3

9/Master Specialist 1 Skill Focus: Spellcraft; Persistent Spell

10/Incantatrix 4 Repeat Spell(b)
11/Incantatrix 5
12/Incantatrix 6 Arcane Thesis: Cloud of Knives
13/Incantatrix 7 Twin Spell (b)
14/Incantatrix 8
15/Incantatrix 9 Spell Focus: Transmutation
16/Incantatrix 10 Quicken Spell (b)
17/Olin Gisir 1 Residual Metamagic (b)
18/Archmage 1 Empower Spell
19/Archmage 2
20/Archmage 3

[Yuukale]

As far as the difference between Cloud of Knives and Lesser Orb, that depends....do you have a familiar? If so, all of your efforts are automatically doubled with no effort. Also, if you have a Bard in your party, Cloud of Knives IS a weapon attack, while the Orb is not. Cloud would benefit from Inspire Courage (or better, Dragonfire Inspiration).

DM says we'll have a bard and... no, I don't have a familiar, I'm abrupt jaunting.

[Keld Denar]

Move Persist Spell to 10 and take Obtain Familiar at 9 and drop Repeat Spell, or possibly move Repeat Spell to 18 and drop Empower Spell.

Obtain Familiar is in Complete Arcane.

[Zeful]

DM says we'll have a bard and... no, I don't have a familiar, I'm abrupt jaunting.

Remember: Immediate =/= readied. You can't actually dodge anything with Abrupt Jaunt without readying an action to do so.

[Yuukale]

Move Persist Spell to 10 and take Obtain Familiar at 9 and drop Repeat Spell, or possibly move Repeat Spell to 18 and drop Empower Spell.

Hmmm... what's the case for familiars? I feel like they're so squishy, as soon as they deliver a spell and become a target, chances are they'll get one-shotted, and there goes my xp...

[tyckspoon]

Hmmm... what's the case for familiars? I feel like they're so squishy, as soon as they deliver a spell and become a target, chances are they'll get one-shotted, and there goes my xp...

Share Spells, mostly; your familiar can double any spells you have on yourself. So you can get rid of the 'squishy' part by having him use your own defensive spells, and if you're using Cloud of Knives or other 'you gain an offensive power' spells (Dragon's Breath, perhaps?) you double up your offense by sharing that with your Familiar too. Most people don't recommend using your familiar to deliver Touch spells, but Share Spells is effectively a free Twinning; you just have to find the spells that make good use of it.

[Keld Denar]

Basically, yes. You cast cloud of knives. You share it with your familiar. Now there are 2 clouds...one from you, one from your familiar. You each shoot a knife every round. Double your pleasure, double your fun!

[Coidzor]

Remember: Immediate =/= readied. You can't actually dodge anything with Abrupt Jaunt without readying an action to do so.

Eh? If that's the case, then what's the point of immediate actions?

[Yuukale]

Remember: Immediate =/= readied. You can't actually dodge anything with Abrupt Jaunt without readying an action to do so.

I don't quite get it. Aren't Immediate actions allowed even when It's not my turn?

I was hoping I could dodge attacks with this. If not, perhaps this isn't as useful as I though (and might consider going elven generalist+domain).

[Cog]

Remember: Immediate =/= readied. You can't actually dodge anything with Abrupt Jaunt without readying an action to do so.
Are you perhaps confusing immediate actions with swift actions?

[DeAnno]

He's confusing readied actions in 4e with the 3.5e rules somehow I think. You can abrupt jaunt with zero notice.

[Zeful]

Eh? If that's the case, then what's the point of immediate actions?Taking actions when it's not your turn.


I don't quite get it. Aren't Immediate actions allowed even when It's not my turn?

I was hoping I could dodge attacks with this. If not, perhaps this isn't as useful as I though (and might consider going elven generalist+domain).Everyone thinks it dodges attacks, but nowhere in the language for abrupt jaunt or immediate actions allow you to place it before another action (used by both Readied action and contingency, both of which make it possible to do this), and there are no rules for the initiating an action outside of completing it. Mechanically, attacking someone happens when you confirm whether or not it hit, not when you announce it (or select a target, or roll the dice), and without readying an action, abrupt jaunt can't change that.

It's still really useful, it just won't negate attacks in most scenarios


Are you perhaps confusing immediate actions with swift actions?No. I'm not. I can quote both the text for immediate actions and abrupt jaunt from the last time I had this discussion, it's particularly clear the limits of the action and ability.

[sonofzeal]

Taking actions when it's not your turn.

Everyone thinks it dodges attacks, but nowhere in the language for abrupt jaunt or immediate actions allow you to place it before another action (used by both Readied action and contingency, both of which make it possible to do this), and there are no rules for the initiating an action outside of completing it. Mechanically, attacking someone happens when you confirm whether or not it hit, not when you announce it (or select a target, or roll the dice), and without readying an action, abrupt jaunt can't change that.

It's still really useful, it just won't negate attacks in most scenarios

No. I'm not. I can quote both the text for immediate actions and abrupt jaunt from the last time I had this discussion, it's particularly clear the limits of the action and ability.

"However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time."

Casting Feather Fall interrupts an action in progress - namely, you falling. You get to cast after the fall starts but before it ends, even if it all happens on the same initiative count. This is reinforced by the actual wording, as there's no limits placed. It just says any time, and RAW that means any, such as between when an enemy charges up to you and when they swing their sword at your squishy skull.

[Myou]

Taking actions when it's not your turn.

Everyone thinks it dodges attacks, but nowhere in the language for abrupt jaunt or immediate actions allow you to place it before another action (used by both Readied action and contingency, both of which make it possible to do this), and there are no rules for the initiating an action outside of completing it. Mechanically, attacking someone happens when you confirm whether or not it hit, not when you announce it (or select a target, or roll the dice), and without readying an action, abrupt jaunt can't change that.

It's still really useful, it just won't negate attacks in most scenarios

No. I'm not. I can quote both the text for immediate actions and abrupt jaunt from the last time I had this discussion, it's particularly clear the limits of the action and ability.


Immediate Action

An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn.

So yeah, you seem to have confused immediate and swift after all.

Edit: Swordsaged by server lag, that's a new one. :smalltongue:

[Zeful]

"However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time."

Casting Feather Fall interrupts an action in progress - namely, you falling. You get to cast after the fall starts but before it ends, even if it all happens on the same initiative count. This is reinforced by the actual wording, as there's no limits placed. It just says any time, and RAW that means any, such as between when an enemy charges up to you and when they swing their sword at your squishy skull.

And? "At any time" doesn't make it change the results of previous actions, and only adds a periphery use to current actions.

Take charging for instance. You Jaunt in response to the charge, move 10 feet, and then play resumes, oh, wait; now the charging character hasn't completed the requirements of his charge as he is not in the closest square to you to hit with his weapon, and thus must continue his movement until he is (or if he can't because he doesn't have the movement, select another target in range of his original starting location because again, no rules for the initiation of an action, only it's resolution, and the entirety of the charge is a single action). Jaunt can't make the character waste his action, as it's simply not capable of placing itself before the charge's completion after it's been completed.

The same goes for archery, and most spells. Unless you can cite language that states abrupt jaunt goes before a completed action you will find that it doesn't do what people claim it does within the ruleset.

[FMArthur]

And? "At any time" doesn't make it change the results of previous actions, and only adds a periphery use to current actions.

Take charging for instance. You Jaunt in response to the charge, move 10 feet, and then play resumes, oh, wait; now the charging character hasn't completed the requirements of his charge as he is not in the closest square to you to hit with his weapon, and thus must continue his movement until he is (or if he can't because he doesn't have the movement, select another target in range of his original starting location because again, no rules for the initiation of an action, only it's resolution, and the entirety of the charge is a single action). Jaunt can't make the character waste his action, as it's simply not capable of placing itself before the charge's completion after it's been completed.

The same goes for archery, and most spells. Unless you can cite language that states abrupt jaunt goes before a completed action you will find that it doesn't do what people claim it does within the ruleset.

You are trying to assign an immutable discreteness in the action rules that doesn't really exist and is never implied to. Actions are not instantaneous and various abilities do in fact interrupt actions between their initiation and execution. When that's the case it doesn't ever mean the initiation didn't happen. Any is ridiculously inclusive language and requires specific phrasing to contradict it, not to confirm it. It uses the word "any" because it actually means any. Like, using the word from the English language, not a special game term.

[Zeful]

You are trying to assign an immutable discreteness in the action rules that doesn't really exist and is never implied to. Actions are not instantaneous and various abilities do in fact interrupt actions between their initiation and execution.Then cite me the rules that show that there exists a mechanical distinction between the initiation of an action and it's execution like M:TG's Stack rules do. I haven't found any, and I've looked.


When that's the case it doesn't ever mean the initiation didn't happen. Any is ridiculously inclusive language and requires specific phrasing to contradict it, not to confirm it. It uses the word "any" because it actually means any. Like, using the word from the English language, not a special game term.
Which I'm not disputing. An immediate action pretty much stops all other play, resolves and then play continues. However just because it can be activated at any time does not give it special powers over the other rules. Especially not when the rules outright lack the distinctions needed to do what is commonly claimed of it. There is no stack, no in-flight rules, nothing that allows for Abrupt jaunt to dodge attacks. How can it do something the rules don't even model?

[sonofzeal]

Then cite me the rules that show that there exists a mechanical distinction between the initiation of an action and it's execution like M:TG's Stack rules do. I haven't found any, and I've looked.


Which I'm not disputing. An immediate action pretty much stops all other play, resolves and then play continues. However just because it can be activated at any time does not give it special powers over the other rules. Especially not when the rules outright lack the distinctions needed to do what is commonly claimed of it. There is no stack, no in-flight rules, nothing that allows for Abrupt jaunt to dodge attacks. How can it do something the rules don't even model?
Wizard A casts "Defenestrating Sphere" and moves it onto Wizard B. Wizard B fails his saves. Part of the spell effect is he gets thrown up and slams back down, taking falling damage in the process. This is all part of the spell effect.

Can Featherfall be cast, as an immediate action, and take effect before the action of Defenestration Sphere is completed?

You seem to be arguing for "no". Is that correct?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Let's look at how the Immediate Magic alternate class feature in PH2 actually works:

Benefit: You gain a spell-like ability that reflects your chosen school of magic. Activating this ability is an immediate action.....
You can't activate this ability in response to an attack that you aren't aware of. For instance, if an invisible rogue strikes at you, you can't activate urgent shield to gain a bonus to your AC against the attack....

Urgent Shield (abjuration): You create a temporary shield of force that grants you a +2 shield bonus to AC.


It looks to me like you can interrupt an attack to activate that ability, thus gaining a +2 AC versus that attack, unless you're not aware of the attacker. Just the same, you can activate Abrupt Jaunt to get out of the way of an attack before it resolves, unless you're not aware of the attacker. The ability description itself is extremely clear in that you can interrupt an action before it's resolved with any of the Immediate Magic effects, which would include Abrupt Jaunt.

If you Abrupt Jaunt out of a charge attack, the charging opponent cannot decide to redirect his attack at someone else. There's no takesies-backsies, he was swinging at the Wizard and even if the Wizard suddenly teleports out of reach, that attacker's weapon is still swinging into that now empty space. Please cite the rules where it states that a character can change their mind mid-action and do something different. If you charge and someone activates their Earth Devotion ability to turn your path into rugged terrain, you have to make two Balance checks at -5 as per accelerated movement. Failure on even one check means you stumble and stop, failure by 5 or more on either check means you fall on your face. In any case, if you don't make both Balance checks your charge is completely ruined and you still spent your full-round action attempting to perform it. There's no takesies-backsies, and if someone's immediate action ruins your action then too bad, you've still spent the action to make the attempt and you don't get a do-over.

[Zeful]

Wizard A casts "Defenestrating Sphere" and moves it onto Wizard B. Wizard B fails his saves. Part of the spell effect is he gets thrown up and slams back down, taking falling damage in the process. This is all part of the spell effect.

Can Featherfall be cast, as an immediate action, and take effect before the action of Defenestration Sphere is completed?

You seem to be arguing for "no". Is that correct?


Which I'm not disputing. An immediate action pretty much stops all other play, resolves and then play continues.You tell me.


Let's look at how the Immediate Magic alternate class feature in PH2 actually works:

Benefit: You gain a spell-like ability that reflects your chosen school of magic. Activating this ability is an immediate action.....
You can't activate this ability in response to an attack that you aren't aware of. For instance, if an invisible rogue strikes at you, you can't activate urgent shield to gain a bonus to your AC against the attack....

Urgent Shield (abjuration): You create a temporary shield of force that grants you a +2 shield bonus to AC.


It looks to me like you can interrupt an attack to activate that ability, thus gaining a +2 AC versus that attack, unless you're not aware of the attacker. Just the same, you can activate Abrupt Jaunt to get out of the way of an attack before it resolves, unless you're not aware of the attacker. The ability description itself is extremely clear in that you can interrupt an action before it's resolved with any of the Immediate Magic effects, which would include Abrupt Jaunt.

If you Abrupt Jaunt out of a charge attack, the charging opponent cannot decide to redirect his attack at someone else. There's no takesies-backsies, he was swinging at the Wizard and even if the Wizard suddenly teleports out of reach, that attacker's weapon is still swinging into that now empty space. Please cite the rules where it states that a character can change their mind mid-action and do something different. If you charge and someone activates their Earth Devotion ability to turn your path into rugged terrain, you have to make two Balance checks at -5 as per accelerated movement. Failure on even one check means you stumble and stop, failure by 5 or more on either check means you fall on your face. In any case, if you don't make both Balance checks your charge is completely ruined and you still spent your full-round action attempting to perform it. There's no takesies-backsies, and if someone's immediate action ruins your action then too bad, you've still spent the action to make the attempt and you don't get a do-over.

And almost every single one of those situations is completely and utterly different from Abrupt Jaunt. I'm not arguing that immediate action abilities don't what they do. I'm arguing that Abrupt Jaunt does not do what people say it does, dodge attacks, because nothing in the rules lets it do so.

Charging:

Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.

You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent.

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

The Bold and Underline are the most relevant points for this argument, so lets look at a scenario in play.

Wizard A is 50 feet away from Fighter B on a large open field, no walls or cover, no rough terrain, B charges A and A Abrupt Jaunts 10' to the left. Now what do the rules tell us in this scenario? Well, even with the jaunt, there's literally no rule saying the charge can't be completed so B charges and attacks A anyway, the Jaunt is wasted.

Now what if the Jaunt put our wizard behind cover? Well the rules say that if there is any obstacle (or anything that blocks, slows or hinders movement) in the path, he can't charge (he also can't charge if he didn't have line of sight to A at the beginning of his turn, but since we are stipulating he did, that's not relevant), not his charge stops. A is now an invalid target, choosing to charge her is impossible.

Now with that talk of no takesies-backsies, the game stops here. Literally. B's turn can't end until he charges A (actually not true by RAW, you've merely imposed a rule that does not exist onto the scenario). The rules will not let him charge A. Since his turn can't end, noone else's turn will begin, and well the system has locked up. Until A uses another Abrupt Jaunt to move to a position she can be charged, the game will not continue.

At this point, you have two choices: Force B to give up his action moving to the point A would have been, and creating a houserule. Or let B take back his action and do something else with it, creating a houserule (depending on how you view the ruleset at least). The first would be acceptable if you've got one of the powerful ubercharger builds in play, if only to keep him from one-shotting things, but in general, there's no harm in letting him take back his action and do something (kinda) useful with it, because most people charging don't have the options of a caster and aren't going to be as effective with their actions anyway. The first just screams of the "Magic is special because magic, I ain't got to explain anything", while the second is more "have fun, it's just a game".

See where I'm coming from now?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

When Mr. Fighter decided to charge Mr. Wizard and spent a full-round action on the charge attempt, he decided then what square he's going to charge into, and what square he's swinging his sword into. This is what cannot be changed, he's already in the process of taking this action and it's too late for him to change his mind. He cannot charge into a different square, he cannot swing into a different square, all of that has already been determined. If Mr. Wizard uses Abrupt Jaunt to leave that square, Mr. Fighter is still going to charge to his predetermined destination and swing into his predetermined target space, regardless of the fact that it's empty. His full-round action has been spent, he is set in motion to carry out that action, and he's stuck doing what he decided to do.

That Fighter is moving full-speed toward his target, he raises his weapon at the right time to swing it onto the Wizard, as he gets closer he shifts his weight to put his full momentum into his swing. At the last second before his sword comes down, the Wizard disappears, and all that Fighter's oomph goes to waste. He can't in that instant just decide to redirect that somewhere else, the effort has already been spent and he's committed to carrying it out. There are no takesies-backsies, you cannot do-over your charge because the Wizard moved. You're stuck doing what you decided to do.

[sonofzeal]

And almost every single one of those situations is completely and utterly different from Abrupt Jaunt. I'm not arguing that immediate action abilities don't what they do. I'm arguing that Abrupt Jaunt does not do what people say it does, dodge attacks, because nothing in the rules lets it do so.
Disagreed. It works just like other uses of Immediate Actions, because nothing in the wording implies it works differently.


Charging:


The Bold and Underline are the most relevant points for this argument, so lets look at a scenario in play.

Wizard A is 50 feet away from Fighter B on a large open field, no walls or cover, no rough terrain, B charges A and A Abrupt Jaunts 10' to the left. Now what do the rules tell us in this scenario? Well, even with the jaunt, there's literally no rule saying the charge can't be completed so B charges and attacks A anyway, the Jaunt is wasted.

Now what if the Jaunt put our wizard behind cover? Well the rules say that if there is any obstacle (or anything that blocks, slows or hinders movement) in the path, he can't charge (he also can't charge if he didn't have line of sight to A at the beginning of his turn, but since we are stipulating he did, that's not relevant), not his charge stops. A is now an invalid target, choosing to charge her is impossible.

Now with that talk of no takesies-backsies, the game stops here. Literally. B's turn can't end until he charges A (actually not true by RAW, you've merely imposed a rule that does not exist onto the scenario). The rules will not let him charge A. Since his turn can't end, noone else's turn will begin, and well the system has locked up. Until A uses another Abrupt Jaunt to move to a position she can be charged, the game will not continue.

At this point, you have two choices: Force B to give up his action moving to the point A would have been, and creating a houserule. Or let B take back his action and do something else with it, creating a houserule (depending on how you view the ruleset at least). The first would be acceptable if you've got one of the powerful ubercharger builds in play, if only to keep him from one-shotting things, but in general, there's no harm in letting him take back his action and do something (kinda) useful with it, because most people charging don't have the options of a caster and aren't going to be as effective with their actions anyway. The first just screams of the "Magic is special because magic, I ain't got to explain anything", while the second is more "have fun, it's just a game".

See where I'm coming from now?
Agreed. Some things in D&D lead to a logical contradiction. Schrodinger's Dragon Disciple and all that. That doesn't mean the interpretation is wrong though, merely that D&D has contradictory elements in it.

[gomipile]

Also, it seems obvious that Abrupt Jaunt was intended to get the wizard out of dangerous situations that happen on other characters' turns. Being charged and attacked by an enemy martial character obviously qualifies. So, the probable RAI obviously supports the common interpretation.

Most people seem to agree that the RAW also allows dodging a charge with Abrupt Jaunt.

As a counterexample to Zeful's logic, imagine a medium sized enemy without reach charging our friendly wizard, and imagine that his charge path goes through squares threatened by our friendly spiked chain fighter. The enemy declares his action as a charge attack versus the wizard. Our friendly fighter has the Stand Still feat, and successfully stops the enemy in his tracks with his attack of opportunity. The enemy's declared action is no longer possible, but the foundations of the game do not come crashing to a halt.

Also, what if the Abrupt Jaunt actually puts the wizard out of charging range of the enemy? Then the action declared by the enemy is totally impossible, and cannot be completed the way Zeful wants him to.

[sonofzeal]

Also, it seems obvious that Abrupt Jaunt was intended to get the wizard out of dangerous situations that happen on other characters' turns. Being charged and attacked by an enemy martial character obviously qualifies. So, the probable RAI obviously supports the common interpretation.

Most people seem to agree that the RAW also allows dodging a charge with Abrupt Jaunt.

As a counterexample to Zeful's logic, imagine a medium sized enemy without reach charging our friendly wizard, and imagine that his charge path goes through squares threatened by our friendly spiked chain fighter. The enemy declares his action as a charge attack versus the wizard. Our friendly fighter has the Stand Still feat, and successfully stops the enemy in his tracks with his attack of opportunity. The enemy's declared action is no longer possible, but the foundations of the game do not come crashing to a halt.

Also, what if the Abrupt Jaunt actually puts the wizard out of charging range of the enemy? Then the action declared by the enemy is totally impossible, and cannot be completed the way Zeful wants him to.
Indeed. I can think of about a dozen different situations that could cause a charge to be unsuccessful.

Actually, let's see....

Ready Action: movement
Ready Action: {any number of spells, from Grease to Teleport to Gate}
Ready Action: enough damage to kill the charger
AoO: Stand Still
AoO: Trip
AoO: enough damage to kill the charger
Counter Charge maneuver
Disguised Pit Trap in the way
Disguised Caltrops or Marbles in the way
Invisible creature in the way
Target of the charge is an illusion
Abrupt Jaunt

...yep, that's a dozen different ways a character can intend a charge but be unable to complete it.

[DeAnno]

...yep, that's a dozen different ways a character can intend a charge but be unable to complete it.

This is incidentally part of why high end charging builds tend not to end up as good in practice as they seem in theory.

[gomipile]

Anyway, back to the OP. I like the Cloud of Knives option better, especially if you share it with a familiar for double the awesome. Although, forcing your DM to do the bookkeeping for his NPCs getting hit with so many negative levels all the time might anger him/her/other.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Anyway, back to the OP. I like the Cloud of Knives option better, especially if you share it with a familiar for double the awesome. Although, forcing your DM to do the bookkeeping for his NPCs getting hit with so many negative levels all the time might anger him/her/other.

Just be sure you're hitting everything with enough negative levels to kill it outright, no bookkeeping required.

[candycorn]

Relevant Text:
Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.)

So, sequence of events for charge:
1) move directly towards opponent, stopping in the first square you reach that you may attack the opponent from
2) attack opponent

Timing of immediate actions: Any time.

Legal timing:
1) move directly towards opponent, stopping in the first square you reach that you may attack the opponent from

1a) Target uses Abrupt Jaunt, teleports out of range.

2) target for attack is illegal, attack cannot be completed, remainder of action lost, unless there is another charge target that you've obeyed all restrictions to attack.

[Eisenfavl]

To the OP:
Look up symbiont's, particularly from Magic Of Ebberron for their market prices. For, like, 1000 gp IIRC you can pick up a symbiont which has the share spells ability from a familiar. Get, oh, 50-100 to taste.

[ericgrau]

If you're going to spend 4 feats on blasty then you should apply it to fireball and save the orbs for backup against the occasional resistant thing. Especially against groups of foes.

For damage over time it better get the job done in 2-3 rounds or it isn't worth the waiting.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Zeful:

Can the third-level spell Halt (from PHBII, the same source as the Immediate Magic trade-offs) stop a charge from affecting the target?

If the answer to this question is yes, then Abrupt Jaunt can stop it for (almost) all the same reasons: the charger can no longer charge to an appropriate square to attack the wizard. (In the case of the former, it's because movement is impeded; in the case of the latter, it's because his trajectory is set and cannot be changed once the charge is initiated, but everything else is the same.)

Anyway.

I'd go with the EmMaxiTwiXtured Orbs of Fire, but more importantly, since Arcane Thesis is not a part of your build and both spells are Conjuration (meaning they both benefit from all metamagic reducing effects that benefit Conjuration), you can do either (or both) to the same end, really. It'd be more feat-intensive, but... Eh, it can be done.