[Core-Only] Epic Spellcasting on the Cheap

[Slipperychicken]

In a core-only game I've been playing, we've recently hit 21st level, planning to go into high 20s. We have very little wealth, about 20k available outside of magic items dropped by opponents. So we don't have many resources to devote to Epic Spells. We may have access to low-level spell slots from an army we just helped out for DC mitigation. Due to my character's lack of resources, he needs spells which don't need much cash to research (zero-DC).


My character is a Wizard7/Loremaster6/Archmage5/[undecided]3, using a houserule which basically has him cast spontaneously like a sorcerer (I tried to get Eidetic Spellcaster allowed, but I wound up with Sorc-style casting instead), including use of metamagics and such. His current metamagic feats are Widen and Extend.


What good zero-DC Epic Spells are possible?

~20,000gp

My character casts spontaneously, so any effect is worth researching.
Spellcraft modifier is +32

139 hp for backlash
May have an army's worth of friendly spellcasters for DC mitigation

[Alleran]

Just make any spell you cast a zero-DC ritual spell and have all the friendly spellcaster followers back you up. The spells don't cost anything to research, after all.

[Silva Stormrage]

Also planar binding helps for DC mitigation, try not to abuse TOO badly though, its very easy with epic spells.


If you don't care about abusing too much try creating an epic spell to summon one of these under your control for about a month.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane

They can create a copy of another creature no save. You can use it on a DM's BBEG :smallbiggrin:

[Alleran]

If you don't care about abusing too much try creating an epic spell to summon one of these under your control for about a month.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane

They can create a copy of another creature no save. You can use it on a DM's BBEG :smallbiggrin:
Something I just noticed about that summoning ability is that it has no round limit. As long as the duplicate doesn't die, you can just summon another one the next day. :smallamused:

[Arakune]

Something I just noticed about that summoning ability is that it has no round limit. As long as the duplicate doesn't die, you can just summon another one the next day. :smallamused:


Summon Creature (Sp)

Abominations can summon creatures associated either with the portfolio of their godly progenitor or with their imprisonment. Summoned creatures serve the abomination without question. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour, or sooner if slain. See specific abomination entries for additional details on summoning.

One hour is still a lot for a summoning.

[Telok]

Resource Cost

The development of an epic spell uses up raw materials costing a number of gold pieces equal to 9,000 × the final Spellcraft DC of the epic spell being developed.

Your Spellcraft DC limit is (according to the OP) +2. At this point you'll be able to cast an epic cantrip. It will be less effective than most 9th level spells. The only way around your limit is by abusing the assistant caster reduction. If you've been given normal NPC humanoid casters then you need to know how many of them will be available to help. There are ways to abuse Planar Binding and other summoning/calling spells to get theoretical infinite numbers of assistants, but this will depend heavily on your DM allowing it.

[motoko's ghost]

Do you mean SRD-only? Core is DMG,PHB&MM1 iirc

[Slipperychicken]

Do you mean SRD-only? Core is DMG,PHB&MM1 iirc

MM1, PHB, DMG, DMs-homebrew.


The group seems to think that 20k, spread across four 21st level characters makes them all fantastically wealthy, and that a +6 longsword (homebrew) is equivalent value to a whole kingdom. I swear I'm going to start looting treasuries one of these days.

[Arakune]

Should have already been doing that for a while.

[tyckspoon]

The group seems to think that 20k, spread across four 21st level characters makes them all fantastically wealthy, and that a +6 longsword (homebrew) is equivalent value to a whole kingdom. I swear I'm going to start looting treasuries one of these days.

Well.. if it's using the Epic item rules, a +6 (base enhancement value, not equivalent with special properties) probably *is* worth a kingdom. Epic stuff is stupefyingly expensive.

[Vendle]

Animate Mummy
Necromancy [Evil]
Spellcraft DC: 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: touch
Target: 1 corpse touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: none
SR: no

To Develop: 0gp, 0 days (or 1 day), 0 XP
Seed: Animate Dead (23), Increase casting time to 10 minutes (-18),
Take 5d6 Backlash damage (-5)

This spell animates one 20HD mummy under your control.

Epic Minor Armor
Conjuration (creation) [Force]
Spellcraft DC: 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Target: Personal
Duration: 24 hrs
Save: Will negates (harmless)
SR: Yes (harmless)

To Develop: 18,000gp, 1 day, 720 XP
Seed: Armor (14), Increase casting time to 10 minutes (-18), Increase armor bonus to +8 (+8), change from touch to personal (-2)


This spell is similiar to the Mage Armor spell, except that the bonus is +8 and the duration is 24 hours.

I'll try to work up some other ideas later. Altogether a fun thought excercise. :)

[Telok]

Sadly a 20 hit die mummy is a CR 8 or 9 creature without useful spells or spell-likes, suffering from fire vulnerability, and he can only control one at time.

Try...
Seed: Summon (dc 14) [Lantern Archon]
Duration: Permanent (dc x5)

Mitigate down from DC 70
Casting time: 10 minutes (dc -18)
Assistants: 17 casters donating 2nd level spells (dc -51)
Backlash: 1d6 (dc -1)

This is a DC 0 spell that gives you a permanent Lantern Archon slave. Which isn't going to do you any good in combat until you have thirty or forty of them. The trick here is that the archons are useful for securing your base and can each contribute a second level spell to your epic rituals.

Basically the longer you're left alone, the stronger you get. For each week of downtime you can get at least 14 more archons. After a month you can use Teleport Circle to drop 50 archons on someone and watch them burn.

[Vendle]

As the mummy is undead, he can control up to two of them.

And the lantern archon idea is great, but he won't have 17 of them to help cast the spell the first time he casts it. Or the second time, etc.

In general, Epic spells that are cheap to develop have to be low on the Spellcraft check, and in turn are typically not very effective offensively. That's why you should stick to spells that don't attack directly, like summons, creation spells, and self-enhancements.

[Slipperychicken]

Basically the longer you're left alone, the stronger you get. For each week of downtime you can get at least 14 more archons. After a month you can use Teleport Circle to drop 50 archons on someone and watch them burn.

Interesting. Through chain-summoning I can build a more reliable group of friendly casters, and get access to more powerful Epic Spells. Thank you very much.

[Urpriest]

Tell us what casters are in your friendly army and we'll tell you what you can do. Otherwise you don't have access to much useful.

[Jack_Simth]

Duration: Permanent (dc x5)

Backlash: 1d6 (dc -1)
Never, ever, ever, make a Permanent spell with Backlash. Epic Spell Backlash, by default, is PER ROUND OF THE DURATION.

You'll kill yourself quick doing that.

But get rid of that one little backlash point, and it's a DC 1 Epic spell, within budget. And you can use those spell-like abilities to feed yourself for the next Epic spell, and mitigate to 0.

[Mystify]

Can you make an epic spell to create a creature with 1 spell per day that lasts forever and exists soley to accumulate into an army for the epic spell of doom? As you get more, you can use them in the ritual to make new ones in order to get more/higher spell levels, and hence accelerate the buildup.

[Slipperychicken]

Tell us what casters are in your friendly army and we'll tell you what you can do. Otherwise you don't have access to much useful.

I think a safe bet would be around 20ish second level slots, plus several third-level. Technically, it's the biggest army in the campaign setting (tens of thousands total), so the high end is probably around 40-50. It all depends on how miserly the royalty is going to be toward the guys who just won them a war.

[tyckspoon]

Summon Monster 9 can bring you a Couatl, which can provide 4th level slots, and 8 gets Lillends that can offer 2nds. That's the easiest (and less cheesy, since they're not persistent helpers) way I know of to generate your own aides for ritual epic spells- if you use your entire stock of 9th and 8th level spells on Summon Monster (assuming 5 slots of each, if you haven't spent any of them on Archmage SLAs) you get 5x7 + 5x3 = 50 mitigation. The short duration of Summon Monster means this is sadly incompatible with Extend Casting Time, which is the other really cheap source of mitigation that should be used on basically everything. If you're willing, you could use a bit of XP burn; 500 or so XP is not a terrible sacrifice for an Epic caster, and if you're allowed to get away with one of the means of self-generating permanent helpers you can take it off the spell once you have enough aides to cover that gap.

(The really cheesy way of getting your own helpers is of course Greater Planar Binding a few Planetars. Not only can they provide a 9th level slot for a neat -17 mitigation, you can have them set their remaining high-level slots to Summon Monster for additional Couatls/Lillends. You can also use regular Planar Binding for Trumpet Archons, which can give 7ths.)

[Urpriest]

I think a safe bet would be around 20ish second level slots, plus several third-level. Technically, it's the biggest army in the campaign setting (tens of thousands total), so the high end is probably around 40-50. It all depends on how miserly the royalty is going to be toward the guys who just won them a war.

Ok, even conservatively that's something like a -75 mitigation. Just using 10min casting time and this you can mitigate down a DC 93 spell, so in particular you can get a permanent summoned creature up to DC 18, or CR 4. Jannis arguably have a spell-like ability that is a 7th level spell. Tritons are CR 2 and have a 4th level SLA. I'm not sure that SLAs can contribute slots to epic spells though. If not, you'd be restricted to asking if you can summon creatures with class levels, since nothing that low CR has base spellcasting.

If SLAs could work, every day you summon a Janni your cap for CR summoned increases by 2.6. You make it to permanent Efreet in 3 days. After that, farm those Wishes!

[Vendle]

Here's something simple if you have a couple party members who are also spellcasters; you can even share the wealth, casting it on a different member each day of the week.

Weekly Mental Aptitude
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 100 hrs
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
SR: yes (harmless)

To Develop: 18,000gp, 1 day, 720XP

Seed: Fortify (17), Increase to +25 enhancement (+46), Increase casting time to 10 minutes (-18), double duration four times (+8), three
additional casters providing one 9th level slot each (-51).

With three additional spellcasters each using a 9th level slot, you increase your primary casting stat with a +25 enhancement bonus for 100
hours.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm not sure that SLAs can contribute slots to epic spells though.Hmm... bears looking into. Let's see... first, let's grab what's needed for that from the Epic Spell Development (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm) section:
Additional Participants

Epic spells can be developed that specifically require additional participants. These spells are called rituals. An epic spell developed as a ritual requires a specific number of additional participants, who each must use up one spell slot of a specified level for the day. During an epic spell’s development, the spell’s creator determines the number of additional participants and the level of the spell slots to be contributed. If the exact number of spellcasters does not partake in the casting, or if the casters do not each contribute the proper spell slot, the epic spell automatically fails. To participate, each participant readies an action to contribute his or her raw spell energy when the primary caster begins the epic spell. Additional participants in a ritual spell reduce the Spellcraft DC, as shown on Table: Additional Participants in Rituals. Each additional participant may only contribute one spell slot. It doesn’t matter whether the additional participants are arcane or divine spellcasters; only the level of the spell slot contributed matters. A contributed spell slot is treated as if normally cast. A wizard may contribute either a prepared, uncast spell slot, or an open, unprepared slot. The Spellcraft DC adjustments for each additional participant stack. and also the definition of a spell-like ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities):
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit.

For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is:

10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier.

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

Some creatures are actually sorcerers of a sort. They cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. In fact, an individual creature could have some spell-like abilities and also cast other spells as a sorcerer. (emphasis added)

As whether or not a spell-like ability qualifies as taking up a spell slot before it's cast is not one of the things otherwise specified, then the underlined clause means that they function exactly like spells do in that regard. So yes, they should, per RAW, function for the purpose. Hmm.

[Arros Winhadren]

Why all the hassle involving summon monster and planar binding? Don't the bound outsiders generally try to kill you once they get free? Unless I'm misunderstanding something, why not just cast Simulacrum once per day for a year or so. Not only are they half-level versions of you but they are under your absolute control, permanently. They should easily be able to contribute some 5th or 6th level slots to epic spells. And speaking of awesome epic spells, here are a few I developed the other day:

-Permanent Inherent Bonus Spell-
Fortify Seed, Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 1
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: touch
Target: Personal
Duration: permanent
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Other: Burn 2,000 xp when cast, Must be cast in a ritual of 17 casters giving up 6th level spell slots and 1 caster giving up a 3rd level slot.
Effect: The spellcaster gains a permanent +5 inherent bonus to Intelligence

-Permanent Enhancement Bonus Spell-
Fortify Seed, Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 1
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: touch
Target: Personal
Duration: 160 hours
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Other: Burn 2,000 xp when cast, Must be cast in a ritual of 20 casters giving up 6th level spell slots
Effect: The Spellcaster gains +114 enhancement bonus to Intelligence for the duration of the spell.

-Shadow Self-
Seeds:Shadow, Contact
Spellcraft DC: 0
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 0 feet
Target: Personal
Duration: 87 hours
Saving Throw: Will Disbelief
Spell Resistance: Yes
Other: Must be cast in a ritual with 20 casters giving up 6th level slots..

Effect: The caster creates a shadowy double that remains under the caster's complete control. The double has the hit points, knowledge (including class levels, skills and speech), and personality of the caster. The caster may communicate telepathically with the double at any time. Anyone physically interacting with the double may make a Will save to disbelieve. A successful save allows recognition of the duplicate as an amalgam of shadows.

EDIT: I should mention that I have developed these spells with the intent of using a Rod of Excellent Magic (free 2,000xp per day for spellcasting of any spell), both for the epic spells and to negate the xp penalty for casting Simulacrum. Simulacrum is free due to Ignore Material Components, making this even more cost-effective.

[Jack_Simth]

Why all the hassle involving summon monster and planar binding? Don't the bound outsiders generally try to kill you once they get free?
Bound, once the service is complete, they act on their own personalities. Yes, they very well may try to kill you... but you know, if most wizards who tried it got killed, the Planar Binding spell would be a rather rare one...

Summoned: No, they're fine.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, why not just cast Simulacrum once per day for a year or so. Not only are they half-level versions of you but they are under your absolute control, permanently. They should easily be able to contribute some 5th or 6th level slots to epic spells. And speaking of awesome epic spells, here are a few I developed the other day:

XP and GP costs make this something other than 'on the cheap'.


-Permanent Inherent Bonus Spell-
Fortify Seed, Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 1
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: touch
Target: Personal
Duration: permanent
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Other: Burn 2,000 xp when cast, Must be cast in a ritual of 17 casters giving up 6th level spell slots and 1 caster giving up a 3rd level slot.
Effect: The spellcaster gains a permanent +5 inherent bonus to Intelligence

-Permanent Enhancement Bonus Spell-
Fortify Seed, Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 1
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: touch
Target: Personal
Duration: 160 hours
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Other: Burn 2,000 xp when cast, Must be cast in a ritual of 20 casters giving up 6th level spell slots
Effect: The Spellcaster gains +114 enhancement bonus to Intelligence for the duration of the spell.

-Shadow Self-
Seeds:Shadow, Contact
Spellcraft DC: 0
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 0 feet
Target: Personal
Duration: 87 hours
Saving Throw: Will Disbelief
Spell Resistance: Yes
Other: Must be cast in a ritual with 20 casters giving up 6th level slots..

Effect: The caster creates a shadowy double that remains under the caster's complete control. The double has the hit points, knowledge (including class levels, skills and speech), and personality of the caster. The caster may communicate telepathically with the double at any time. Anyone physically interacting with the double may make a Will save to disbelieve. A successful save allows recognition of the duplicate as an amalgam of shadows.

EDIT: I should mention that I have developed these spells with the intent of using a Rod of Excellent Magic (free 2,000xp per day for spellcasting of any spell), both for the epic spells and to negate the xp penalty for casting Simulacrum. Simulacrum is free due to Ignore Material Components, making this even more cost-effective.
... so 'on the cheap' for someone who has 'recently hit 21st level', and has a budget of just 20,000 gp, they need two Epic feats (Ignore Material Components and Epic Spellcasting), and an item with a list price of 650,000 gp?

Umm... I don't think that will suit the OP's purposes.

[Malroth]

Fountain of Wealth
Spellcraft DC 0

Conjures 20 cubic feet of gold coins that last forever
Seed conjure (21)
Permanent (x5)

Base DC 105
Casting time 10 minutes -18
29 secondary casters each applying a second level spell slot -87

this will summon 23,722.625 lbs of gold coins or 1,186,131 gp
trade these summoned gold pieces for 2 silver pieces on the open market and you will have 237,226 gp worth of perfectly usable funds for spell research.

[Arros Winhadren]

Herp derp, Simulacrum is not terribly expensive but you are right, I had totally forgotten that the OP only got 20,000 gold to spend instead of the odd million or so he is supposed to have. Ignore Material Components doesn't even fit into the epic spells however, and is only supposed to help with casting Simulacrum. Still, I think the point stands that there are plenty of ways to make any epic spell free to cast without any real investment.