Apple

[Aurenthal]

So I just went to an Apple store by my house to buy some things for my mom's phone. When we were in the paybooth and I saw that they were using a Dell computer to charge and bill. And I was like :smallamused: Irony at it's finest moment

[Haruki-kun]

Kinda reminds me of this. (http://gizmodo.com/384479/steve-ballmers-presentation-laptop-is-a-strange-choice)

'Course it's not quite the same since that Mac was probably running Windows anyway, whereas that Dell was surely not running Mac. Still funny when it happens, though.

[Weezer]

So I just went to an Apple store by my house to buy some things for my mom's phone. When we were in the paybooth and I saw that they were using a Dell computer to charge and bill. And I was like :smallamused: Irony at it's finest moment

I don't see this as ironic at all. I see it more of the nobility (Apple computers/users) as being served by the peasantry (Dell). All is how it should be :smalltongue:

[Ulysses WkAmil]

If Dell is peasantry what does that make Gateway?

[TheSummoner]

I don't see this as ironic at all. I see it more of the nobility (Apple computers/users) as being served by the peasantry (Dell). All is how it should be :smalltongue:

Really? Because it seems to me more like even the Apple store knowing that Macs are garbage.

[tyckspoon]

Really? Because it seems to me more like even the Apple store knowing that Macs are garbage.

More likely the store operations package they use is not supported on Mac, and they didn't feel it was worth the time or cost to develop one when perfectly functional systems are available from several vendors on the Windows platforms. Doesn't have a danged thing to do with the relative quality of Apple or Dell's hardware.

[Anxe]

It was probably running Linux if that makes you feel better.

[Rawhide]

There is a difference between an Apple store (owned by Apple) and an Authorised Apple Retailer.

[Mando Knight]

I don't see this as ironic at all. I see it more of the nobility (Apple computers/users) as being served by the peasantry (Dell). All is how it should be :smalltongue:

...So the peasantry is more capable and adaptable in nearly every way, just doesn't look as brushed-aluminum-y? VIVA LA REVOLUTION!

[Flickerdart]

Fun to look at sometimes but utterly useless and largely decorative? Nobility, indeed.

[TheSummoner]

Fun to look at sometimes but utterly useless and largely decorative? Nobility, indeed.

Seems like a fairly apt description. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't true that the only thing you can do with one of those things is sit around a starbucks and pretend to write a novel so that everyone ordering coffee can see how hip and sophisticated you are?

[Skeppio]

I don't see this as ironic at all. I see it more of the nobility (Apple computers/users) as being served by the peasantry (Dell). All is how it should be :smalltongue:

And this is the attitude that makes me cringe every time I see a mac. :smallannoyed:

[Dogmantra]

I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the world who thinks that all of the major operating systems have merits.


Also one time I went to a conference for Microsoft Research people and the slideshow projections were being provided by a Macbook. It all balances out.

[Coidzor]

It's definitely a rather unusual take on things, especially from someone who knows their kit.
And this is the attitude that makes me cringe every time I see a mac. :smallannoyed:

Mmm, for me it's remembering what kind of person Steve Jobs was.

[Aidan305]

If Dell is peasantry what does that make Gateway?

It makes them Serfs.

[Cobra_Ikari]

I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the world who thinks that all of the major operating systems have merits.


Also one time I went to a conference for Microsoft Research people and the slideshow projections were being provided by a Macbook. It all balances out.

I can agree with this. That said, I have a loooot of experiences with Apple fanatics, and there's very little that annoys me as fast as they do. >.<

[ThePhantasm]

There is a difference between an Apple store (owned by Apple) and an Authorised Apple Retailer.

This. Every single Apple store I have ever been in (and I've been in my fair share) has used ONLY Apple products for charging and billing. This is the first time I've ever heard of them not doing so, which makes me suspect that maybe this was not an all-out Apple store...

[Yora]

Apple is not a brand, it's a lifestyle statement.
http://deadwildroses.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/apple_thinkdifferent.jpg

[Manga Shoggoth]

I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the world who thinks that all of the major operating systems have merits.

No, I don't think you are. I have used many operating systems and computers in my time, and find that they tend to be very good in their fields. Although there have been a few dreadful ones...

Most of the noise comes from the Microsoft/*nix/Apple rabid fanbases, and there's no helping them.

(And anybody remember Apple's first computers - the Apple and Apple ][. Yes - that's how they wrote it.)



It makes them Serfs.

Ah. Serfing USA.

[Yora]

The product really matters that much too me. The company does a lot more. Yes, Microsoft is a greedy almost-monopolist, but they are not as evil and exploiting as Apple. Apple is made by slave labor, from what you hear, and I never heard anyone deny that.

[Rawhide]

The product really matters that much too me. The company does a lot more. Yes, Microsoft is a greedy almost-monopolist, but they are not as evil and exploiting as Apple. Apple is made by slave labor, from what you hear, and I never heard anyone deny that.

The computers used to run Microsoft's OSes are made in the same factories. As are the hardware devices Microsoft produces.

[The Succubus]

Apple does have one colossal redeeming feature - its software and hardware are pretty good for making a certain webcomic whose name escapes my memory....

As for me, Linux Mint baby! =D

[Viera Champion]

Why am I not surprised that as soon as a topic about computers comes up, people have to pull out their computer superiority. I don't think I've ever seen a computer discussion that did not quickly degrade to a bunch of people whining about "Mac is better, Windows is better." with the cute little Linux users standing off to the side being nice.

Windows is much better for gaming than macs. Yes. But Apple has amazing customer support. I got a totally free iPod after I broke it, and it was TOTALLY my fault, so they had no obligation to do so. My MacBook Pro is really nice, and was provide through a program at my school so I did not have to pay for it either. I enjoy Macs, but I can understand why people prefer window. Enough of this "You're choice in computer is stupid." Clearly it's not, you don't know how it might benefit them, or the situation they are in.:smallsigh:

I know giving my two cents won't get me anywhere. It never does.

[Weezer]

And this is the attitude that makes me cringe every time I see a mac. :smallannoyed:

I was kidding, thought the ":smalltongue:" would make that obvious.


The product really matters that much too me. The company does a lot more. Yes, Microsoft is a greedy almost-monopolist, but they are not as evil and exploiting as Apple. Apple is made by slave labor, from what you hear, and I never heard anyone deny that.

Umm, essentially all tech products are assembled by south east asian factories that have conditions that are while not slave labor, are more analagous to US factory towns before the workers got all uppity. Yes, the working conditions are horrific, but sadly the only way to gain the moral high ground in this situation is to become a hermit luddite on top of some mountain using no technology whatsoever and not even benefiting from items whose production uses technology (any food grown or raised by a major agricultural company, any clothing not hand stiched by amish people, etch). It is impossible to avoid being complicit in the mass oppression and exploitation of the SE asian workforce, so you can't get all "Apple is evil" without also admitting that everyone else is too. Yes, even you.


As for the OSX vs Windows argument, I've always held it doesn't really matter. Both are functional operating systems that unless you're doing very high level stuff with them (and if your doing that, get linux) are essentially analogous, with the sole exception of what programs run on them. The main difference for me is that if I build a computer, I can't run OSX on it, but I can put Windows on it. That is the main reason I have always used windows, because I like building my computers.

[The Succubus]

Why am I not surprised that as soon as a topic about computers comes up, people have to pull out their computer superiority. I don't think I've ever seen a computer discussion that did not quickly degrade to a bunch of people whining about "Mac is better, Windows is better." with the cute little Linux users standing off to the side being nice.

....did you just say I'm cute? :smallredface::smallbiggrin:

[Viera Champion]

....did you just say I'm cute? :smallredface::smallbiggrin:

That I did darling.:smallwink:

[pendell]

This is one of the reasons I have yet to get a console to succeed my PS2, because Xbox 360, PS/3, and Wii are all made by Foxconn. You remember, the people whose workers commit suicide.

I suspect I'll wind up buying a used console in the fullness of time. That way at least I won't be putting money directly into their exploitive hands.

As towards Steve Jobs (http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2012/02/22/the-book-of-steve-jobs-apple/), well, there's a lot to say...


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Moff Chumley]

You try running a 100+ track ProTools session at 192/24 on a PC and tell me how that works out for you. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

This is one of the reasons I have yet to get a console to succeed my PS2, because Xbox 360, PS/3, and Wii are all made by Foxconn. You remember, the people whose workers commit suicide.

I thought there was a massive drop in quality between Nintendo consoles. Got something to blame it on now, nifty.

[Greenish]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't true that the only thing you can do with one of those things is sit around a starbucks and pretend to write a novel so that everyone ordering coffee can see how hip and sophisticated you are?You can also sit home and read GitP forums where people sneer at you for using a different computer than them. :smallfrown:

[valadil]

I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the world who thinks that all of the major operating systems have merits.

Nah. Most Mac and Linux nerds I know have mutual respect for each other and agree that Windows is the best platform for games. I'm not sure what other merits Windows has, but that's not because I'm snarky, just really out of touch.


More likely the store operations package they use is not supported on Mac, and they didn't feel it was worth the time or cost to develop one when perfectly functional systems are available from several vendors on the Windows platforms. Doesn't have a danged thing to do with the relative quality of Apple or Dell's hardware.

Yup. Most point of sale systems are outsourced. That said, when I got my iPhone 4, the POS system was another iPhone with a credit card dongle. Apple is clearly doing some amount of their own POS.

[noparlpf]

Irony is fun! Especially in this case. I probably would have struck up a conversation with the cashier about their choice of computer.
Oh, and I recently saw a Coke machine, one of those fancy newish ones with a big screen that I guess might be a touch screen or just for advertisements or something, with a blue screen. :smallbiggrin:


...So the peasantry is more capable and adaptable in nearly every way, just doesn't look as brushed-aluminum-y? VIVA LA REVOLUTION!

Woo! I don't even like the brushed-aluminum look anyway.


Fun to look at sometimes but utterly useless and largely decorative? Nobility, indeed.

Sounds pretty accurate.


And this is the attitude that makes me cringe every time I see a mac. :smallannoyed:

What makes me cringe is the cost, and the entire interface and aesthetic. It's not my style.

I haven't tried any of the less-mainstream operating systems yet because I'm too lazy, but my favorite yet was probably Windows 95. XP was decent, and 7 is kind of meh. I should try Linux.

[Talya]

More likely the store operations package they use is not supported on Mac, and they didn't feel it was worth the time or cost to develop one when perfectly functional systems are available from several vendors on the Windows platforms. Doesn't have a danged thing to do with the relative quality of Apple or Dell's hardware.

More likely due to the fact that, for any given task, Dell and Apple are pretty much the same quality/reliability, and the Apple computers cost 3-4 times as much, so simple economics says they should use Dells.

[Tyndmyr]

The product really matters that much too me. The company does a lot more. Yes, Microsoft is a greedy almost-monopolist, but they are not as evil and exploiting as Apple. Apple is made by slave labor, from what you hear, and I never heard anyone deny that.

Look, basically the whole electronics industry at least uses components assembled in such places as asia, usually in not-fantastic work environments. I will gleefully trash apple for the things they actually do(like charging rather a lot), but this is an area in which it's really not fair to single them out. It's the entire industry.


This is one of the reasons I have yet to get a console to succeed my PS2, because Xbox 360, PS/3, and Wii are all made by Foxconn. You remember, the people whose workers commit suicide.

I suspect I'll wind up buying a used console in the fullness of time. That way at least I won't be putting money directly into their exploitive hands.

As towards Steve Jobs (http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2012/02/22/the-book-of-steve-jobs-apple/), well, there's a lot to say...


Respectfully,

Brian P.

Ugh. Workers everywhere commit suicide.

US suicide rate: 11.8 per 100k
Chinese suicide rate: 22.23 per 100k
Foxconn suicide rate: 17 over 100k workers over half a decade. Ie, 3.4 per 100k.

I'm sorry for those people who did commit suicide, since it's always sad...but pretending it's unique to people who work at Foxconn is obviously not true.
In fact, it appears that foxconn workers are less likely than average to kill themselves(normal, people who have recently become unemployed, etc are more at risk).

These jobs are not great by our standards, but they're above average wage in china, and they're in demand as a result. There is also little difference between the workers used by apple and any other tech company.

Additionally, I couldn't care less what kind of computer is used to register sales. That's not terribly relevant to what computer will best fill my needs.

[dehro]

working conditions in China tend to be pretty poor all across the board, not just in IT related industry.
remember that travel cot you bought for your newborn kid? the and the pushchair combo? the one that set you back half a grand?
if if you don't like exploiting near slavery conditions, I'm afraid you'll just have to carry your newborn in a shopping bag.
also..toys... 80-90% of all toys sold all over the planet are made in China, primarily in the Shenzen area, but it's been branching out elsewhere (because apparently that area was starting to become too expensive)
.. I've seen the factories..

I particularily remember one city where up to 16.000 workers were employed in a single factory building electric cars and bikes for children of 2-5 to ride on.
that is, when it's high season... when it's a slow period, that same factory will simply fire more than half the workforce who will then just be out of a job.. and forced to either wait for further employement next season..or, if they haven't saved enough (and they usually haven't as they send half their earnings back to the family farm), they have to move on to another city and find another job..or worse, move back to the aforementioned farm.

all very off topic, but I do have a point... almost nothing is free from chinese or indian competiton, which more often than not means rubbish working conditions and wages for most of the people involved...
so using this argument as a discriminating factor between 2 business corporations is a rather moot point

[Weezer]

More likely due to the fact that, for any given task, Dell and Apple are pretty much the same quality/reliability, and the Apple computers cost 3-4 times as much, so simple economics says they should use Dells.

Except that's not entirely true. As Chumley said for things like high end A/V manipulation Apple is superior and as others indicated Windows is far superior for games. Also there are many programs that only are written for one or the other OS, so they aren't exactly the same. However, saying that, neither is particularly better overall.

[Dogmantra]

Except that's not entirely true. As Chumley said for things like high end A/V manipulation Apple is superior and as others indicated Windows is far superior for games. Also there are many programs that only are written for one or the other OS, so they aren't exactly the same. However, saying that, neither is particularly better overall.

I think Talya was just referring to the use of computers for controlling store operations, not in general.

[GolemsVoice]

I've read once that there was a Microsoft employee who was fired after taking a photo of the company ordering a bunch of Apple computers and putting the photo on the net.

http://www.michaelhanscom.com/eclecticism/2003/10/23/even-microsoft-wants-g5s/

That's all I have to contribute.

[Mando Knight]

also..toys... 80-90% of all toys sold all over the planet are made in China, primarily in the Shenzen area, but it's been branching out elsewhere (because apparently that area was starting to become too expensive)
.. I've seen the factories..
Buy LEGO. Absolutely no Chinese slave labor. (Plenty of ultra-precise robot labor, though)

As Chumley said for things like high end A/V manipulation Apple is superior
I've heard this, but I never see any real support behind it, other than the integrated software package... which is moot since high end A/V manipulation would imply industrial/commercial grade 3rd party programs anyway.

[Tyndmyr]

working conditions in China tend to be pretty poor all across the board, not just in IT related industry.
remember that travel cot you bought for your newborn kid? the and the pushchair combo? the one that set you back half a grand?
if if you don't like exploiting near slavery conditions, I'm afraid you'll just have to carry your newborn in a shopping bag.
also..toys... 80-90% of all toys sold all over the planet are made in China, primarily in the Shenzen area, but it's been branching out elsewhere (because apparently that area was starting to become too expensive)
.. I've seen the factories..

I particularily remember one city where up to 16.000 workers were employed in a single factory building electric cars and bikes for children of 2-5 to ride on.
that is, when it's high season... when it's a slow period, that same factory will simply fire more than half the workforce who will then just be out of a job.. and forced to either wait for further employement next season..or, if they haven't saved enough (and they usually haven't as they send half their earnings back to the family farm), they have to move on to another city and find another job..or worse, move back to the aforementioned farm.

all very off topic, but I do have a point... almost nothing is free from chinese or indian competiton, which more often than not means rubbish working conditions and wages for most of the people involved...
so using this argument as a discriminating factor between 2 business corporations is a rather moot point

This is true. It's a terrible discriminator, as most companies are involved in this. That said, I don't actually have a problem with it. It's not slave labor. It's a step up from their family farms. Not a big step from my perspective, but I hope they'll take more, and every step helps. Currently powerful countries didn't get there overnight either.


Buy LEGO. Absolutely no Chinese slave labor. (Plenty of ultra-precise robot labor, though)

[quote]I've heard this, but I never see any real support behind it, other than the integrated software package... which is moot since high end A/V manipulation would imply industrial/commercial grade 3rd party programs anyway.

Accurate. I've not seen any particular reason for A/V for macs. They were, once upon a time, dominant in graphics creation, and there's some legacy from that(very popular among that culture), but technically...any differences are generally sufficiently trivial that it's only interesting from a pedantic standpoint. They mostly run on the same hardware, even.

That said, I do also support ultra-precise robot labor.

[Yora]

I think the issue is not if conditions improve from abysmal to horrible, but that you allow people to remain in horrible conditions even though you could easily have them live in decent conditions. It is not as if the big companies could not afford to make a bit less profit to increase the wages of their workers, and it isn't even the wages that people are suffering from the most.
Foxxcon is not the only company that could provide such a service to western companies. But companies chose them because the labor is so cheap. If they would say that would pay more to a company that provides the same service but treats the workers better, I am sure there would be lots of people standing in line in an instant. And they wouldn't have much trouble finding workers. There are more than enough who would switch to another employer glady if they could get such a job.

[Greenish]

Buy LEGO. Absolutely no Chinese slave labor.Also awesome.


It is not as if the big companies could not afford to make a bit less profit to increase the wages of their workersNow, now, that's communist talk. :smalltongue:

[Leecros]

I am sure there would be lots of people standing in line in an instant.

I'm, unfortunately, inclined to disagree. I'm certain that there would be lots of people standing in that line, me included, unfortunately most people don't care where or how their things were made and that's the biggest problem.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Buy LEGO. Absolutely no Chinese slave labor. (Plenty of ultra-precise robot labor, though)

Who built the ultra-precise robots?

[Nai_Calus]

I've heard this, but I never see any real support behind it, other than the integrated software package... which is moot since high end A/V manipulation would imply industrial/commercial grade 3rd party programs anyway.

I'm not sure where that comes from either. The iLamps seem to have had a graphics card, compared to your average off the shelf PC, I know my PC I had in 2002-2003 had similar specs to the iLamps at the art college I was going to at the time, but lacked a graphics card, consequently running Photoshop 7 worse. (The iLamps also had a pretty damn nice monitor that blew my CRT out of the water.) Maybe for consumer-level off-the-shelf stuff? But then your average consumer doesn't go out and buy Photoshop, and if they do they probably built their computer for a PC or aren't using an iMac.

I've never really noticed a problem with using Photoshop on my more recent IBM-compatible computers. Mind you, I still stick with Photoshop 6... But I haven't noticed a problem with more modern software either. (I didn't like the brush engine in 7 and I could never get it to work properly with my tablet. I still have the ancient 6x8 USB Intuos I got in 2001.) Very much not a pro user though. :P

My mother keeps wanting a Mac and I can't figure out why. She has no need for one. She does nothing with graphics and just wants to surf the web, which you can do just fine on y'know a PC. >_>;

...Wait. Mando you changed your avatar my world is ending. (Says the person who changed theirs. Derp.)

[Surrealistik]

Hate the products, love the stock.

Cha-ching baby.

[Moff Chumley]

I've heard this, but I never see any real support behind it, other than the integrated software package... which is moot since high end A/V manipulation would imply industrial/commercial grade 3rd party programs anyway.

3rd party programs, that for whatever reason, really don't seem to like PCs. *shrug*

[TheSummoner]

Ugh. Workers everywhere commit suicide.

US suicide rate: 11.8 per 100k
Chinese suicide rate: 22.23 per 100k
Foxconn suicide rate: 17 over 100k workers over half a decade. Ie, 3.4 per 100k.

I'm sorry for those people who did commit suicide, since it's always sad...but pretending it's unique to people who work at Foxconn is obviously not true.
In fact, it appears that foxconn workers are less likely than average to kill themselves(normal, people who have recently become unemployed, etc are more at risk).

It's fun how data can be manipulated to "prove" absolutely any point you want it to.

Here's whats wrong with what you said.

17/100k is 17/100k is 17/100k. Just because the data only spans hald a decade does not make it 3.4/100k. A greater and more varied reference pool is always better. It makes the data more accurate. But it a smaller reference pool does not change the numbers.

Foxconn is NOT the equivalent of the USA or China. One company does not equal an entire country. I'd say you're comparing apples and oranges, but those can actually be compared. What you're comparing is more like comparing apples and The Flintstones. Compare the USA and China if you like. Compare Foxconn and other companies or professions if you like. But you can't draw comparisons between things as vastly different as companies and entire countries unless you're basing it on the national average or something.

Now... I don't particularly care about Foxconn. It's sad, sure, but I don't see it as my problem. Still, you'd think something might be wrong when the company actually has to install nets on the sides of their buildings to catch employees who jump.

[Juggling Goth]

This is one of the reasons I have yet to get a console to succeed my PS2, because Xbox 360, PS/3, and Wii are all made by Foxconn. You remember, the people whose workers commit suicide.

I suspect I'll wind up buying a used console in the fullness of time. That way at least I won't be putting money directly into their exploitive hands.



Neato. I thought I was just being cheap when I did that. Turns out I'm also being more ethical.

Actually, I take a similar approach with leather. I figure if I'm buying it second-hand, at least I'm not adding to demand or actually handing money over to the bad guys. Now I need a way around running shoes, because I have a broken foot that never healed right, and new Adidas Supernovas were the first time I could go running without walking with a stick the next day.

[Rockphed]

I've heard this, but I never see any real support behind it, other than the integrated software package... which is moot since high end A/V manipulation would imply industrial/commercial grade 3rd party programs anyway.

Assuming both operating systems have the same function call support, and that two computers have equally accurate floating point processors, and that the two computers have enough ram for the task, any two computers can do the exact same stuff.

That said, I have a professor who despises windows because he can leave his equipment that uses linux as an operating system running pretty much indefinitely, but his windows equipment needs to be restarted about once every 12 hours.

Either way, mac is way overrated.

[Dogmantra]

Either way, mac is way overrated.

I don't think it's fair to say that in isolation. I'm pretty sure every operating system (and basically anything where there are multiple options presented as opponents) is way overrated. Sure, Macs are kind of overrated, but I think Windows and Linux are equally overrated. At the end of the day they're just computers, they all do pretty much the same thing, they all have a few things that are different.

[Rockphed]

I don't think it's fair to say that in isolation. I'm pretty sure every operating system (and basically anything where there are multiple options presented as opponents) is way overrated. Sure, Macs are kind of overrated, but I think Windows and Linux are equally overrated. At the end of the day they're just computers, they all do pretty much the same thing, they all have a few things that are different.

Okay, I could go on a screed about how every person I know who prefers mac takes it to an irrational extreme. MacOS might be better than windows, but it isn't nearly as much better as the aforementioned people claim it is. I could come up with examples.

As you say, at the end of the day, they are just computers. So, unless there is some major difference, they do the same stuff. I can even go on about how computers work since I am an electrical engineer.

[Cobra_Ikari]

I think the only real time I've ever cared about the Mac vs. Windows thing was in arguing with a girl I know, where she said that Apple was better because if there were things Windows did better than MacOS, she could just dual boot. This frustrates me.

[Dogmantra]

Okay, I could go on a screed about how every person I know who prefers mac takes it to an irrational extreme.

I would imagine it's because Mac users are in the minority. You ever get that where you have an opinion (perhaps "I didn't really like that film") then someone disagrees with you and you get more and more extreme ("that film was so bad it made me physically sick!")? I like to think that Mac users are like that, they see so many PCs that they just get more and more extreme.

(Also an amusing aside I like how I wrote "they're just computers", it's funny that I can dismiss computers as being just another trivial thing when holy balls COMPUTERS EXIST)

[pendell]

Let's see if I can sum up the pros and cons of each system in about six sentences.

1) Macs are a joy to work with , especially for artists, but are expensive and have closed architectures.

2) Windows computers are cheaper, have more software, are the best gaming platforms, and have open architectures which are much easier to write to. The downside of this is that they crash often, due to the fact that there are so many different video cards/sound cards/whatever it's near impossible for a developer to write for them all without a problem. Also, the shift from first Windows to Win 95 and now from XP to windows 7 has been a horrific experience.

3) Linux is trivial in cost, run forever, and is based on a system every computer science student learns in the first year. The downside of this is that there can be a bit of learning curve for non-CS types, and there's not anywhere near as much "cool" stuff available for it as for an OS.

So if you're a gamer or an ordinary businessperson, buy a PC.
If you're an artist, buy a mac.
If you're running a server farm, get Linux.

Fair?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tyndmyr]

I think the issue is not if conditions improve from abysmal to horrible, but that you allow people to remain in horrible conditions even though you could easily have them live in decent conditions. It is not as if the big companies could not afford to make a bit less profit to increase the wages of their workers, and it isn't even the wages that people are suffering from the most.

They're already paid substantially above national and local averages. If you start pumping up wages to notably higher levels, you end up with some seriously inflationary effects that would end up being pretty hard on everyone else in the area.

In short, if everyone now working in the US was suddenly given a million dollars a day, being a millionare would have no meaning, and the price of goods would inflate to match.


Foxxcon is not the only company that could provide such a service to western companies. But companies chose them because the labor is so cheap. If they would say that would pay more to a company that provides the same service but treats the workers better, I am sure there would be lots of people standing in line in an instant. And they wouldn't have much trouble finding workers. There are more than enough who would switch to another employer glady if they could get such a job.

Foxconn is not exceptional in this area for how they treat their employees. It's culturally accepted and fairly widespread. It's not just a foxconn thing, and the general standard of living, while notably lower than what we enjoy in the western world, is an improvement from subsistence family farming, which is where many of these workers come from, and which is still a thing in much of countries such as china.


It's fun how data can be manipulated to "prove" absolutely any point you want it to.

Here's whats wrong with what you said.

17/100k is 17/100k is 17/100k. Just because the data only spans hald a decade does not make it 3.4/100k. A greater and more varied reference pool is always better. It makes the data more accurate. But it a smaller reference pool does not change the numbers.

You're looking at the data incorrectly. It was 17 suicides total in a worker pool of approximately 100k over a period of half a decade. You need to divide that out to arrive at the annual rate, which is what we're comparing at for the average national rates. If you don't normalize the timespan, the data being compared is terribly unequal.


Foxconn is NOT the equivalent of the USA or China. One company does not equal an entire country. I'd say you're comparing apples and oranges, but those can actually be compared. What you're comparing is more like comparing apples and The Flintstones. Compare the USA and China if you like. Compare Foxconn and other companies or professions if you like. But you can't draw comparisons between things as vastly different as companies and entire countries unless you're basing it on the national average or something.

Comparing a group of people to the national average is a pretty normal way to identify at-risk groups. If the average suicide rate for a specific group(Foxconn workers) is substantially below that of the general population, you can expect that this is not an at-risk group.


Now... I don't particularly care about Foxconn. It's sad, sure, but I don't see it as my problem. Still, you'd think something might be wrong when the company actually has to install nets on the sides of their buildings to catch employees who jump.

They didn't *have* to. They chose to. I'll agree that this is a very unusual move by western cultural standards, but it appears to be a way of limiting bad press by at least avoiding that highly public means of suicide. I wouldn't consider PR moves to be particularly important statistically, though.


Neato. I thought I was just being cheap when I did that. Turns out I'm also being more ethical.

Actually, I take a similar approach with leather. I figure if I'm buying it second-hand, at least I'm not adding to demand or actually handing money over to the bad guys. Now I need a way around running shoes, because I have a broken foot that never healed right, and new Adidas Supernovas were the first time I could go running without walking with a stick the next day.

Strictly speaking, resale price does influence first sale price, and demand affecting price as it does, the reselling market does indirectly affect primary market sales.

That said, there's still plenty of good reasons to encourage buying used. It's practical, inexpensive, and often reduces waste, for instance.


I think the only real time I've ever cared about the Mac vs. Windows thing was in arguing with a girl I know, where she said that Apple was better because if there were things Windows did better than MacOS, she could just dual boot. This frustrates me.

That's a bit unfair on her part. Dual booting is something that basically any computer can do, now. Which OSes you use is mostly a matter of personal choice, and single OSes are usually used only because it's marginally more convenient, not out of necessity.

The Mac OS runs on a pretty notable number of windows boxes without any hardware modification, and the only reason it's not quite as simple to run the Mac OS on non-mac hardware is because Apple actively attempts to hinder it.



2) Windows computers are cheaper, have more software, are the best gaming platforms, and have open architectures which are much easier to write to. The downside of this is that they crash often, due to the fact that there are so many different video cards/sound cards/whatever it's near impossible for a developer to write for them all without a problem. Also, the shift from first Windows to Win 95 and now from XP to windows 7 has been a horrific experience.

This is a bit unfair on several points. You've got the initial spread of windows as starting at what, 3.1? At that time, the apples I used were running System 6, IIRC(later 7, and it's point upgrades). Dealing with upgrades and extensions and stuff was a nightmare on mac, too.

Modern windows boxes should not be crashing notably often. My latest gaming box(win 7) hasn't gone down yet save for once when the power went out. I leave it on 24/7. Modern macs should be comparably reliable(my roommate has a couple, all of our computers are pretty solid).

I would not consider the performance of OSes in the early 90s at all relevant to a modern comparison of manufacturers.

[Greenish]

Who built the ultra-precise robots?The germans! :smalltongue:


Actually, I take a similar approach with leather. I figure if I'm buying it second-hand, at least I'm not adding to demand or actually handing money over to the bad guys.Huh? What bad guys?

[Weezer]

Huh? What bad guys?

You know. Them. The evil corporations. Those who we require, sustain and brought into being yet still despise.

[Flickerdart]

Let's see if I can sum up the pros and cons of each system in about six sentences.

1) Macs are a joy to work with , especially for artists, but are expensive and have closed architectures.
I have never experienced anything remotely like joy while working on a Mac. I am also a graphic designer, which probably falls under "artist" in your rubric. I work with the damn things all the time. I just hate every moment of it. Even the Adobe suite is worse - by default, Photoshop on Mac has no background, so if you ever want to drag a selection starting from off the image (so that you get all of the edge pixels) or transform an image larger than the canvas you have to manually resize the window. And don't you even think about zooming in, because then it'll reset back to the way it was before. Bloody nuisance, that.

In addition, in the past 24 hours I have had one system freeze (losing a ton of work) and three crippling errors requiring reboots with Macs, and none with my PC (which is by no means top of any line). So, you know. Not all that crash-proof.

[Surrealistik]

You know. Them. The evil corporations. Those who we require, sustain and brought into being yet still despise.

I don't despise anything that grows my money 50% in a year.

[Trog]

I have never experienced anything remotely like joy while working on a Mac. I am also a graphic designer, which probably falls under "artist" in your rubric. I work with the damn things all the time. I just hate every moment of it. Even the Adobe suite is worse - by default, Photoshop on Mac has no background, so if you ever want to drag a selection starting from off the image (so that you get all of the edge pixels) or transform an image larger than the canvas you have to manually resize the window. And don't you even think about zooming in, because then it'll reset back to the way it was before. Bloody nuisance, that.

In addition, in the past 24 hours I have had one system freeze (losing a ton of work) and three crippling errors requiring reboots with Macs, and none with my PC (which is by no means top of any line). So, you know. Not all that crash-proof.
Fellow graphic designer here.

In Photoshop CS5:

Window > check "Application Frame" = Full screen Photoshop.

To stop window resizing: Photoshop > Preferences > General. Uncheck "Zoom Resizes Window"

You're welcome. :smallwink:

Lots of mac hate here I see. I love them and have been working on them professionally since the days of system 7. OS X far superior than OS9 and before. I'm not sure I entirely trust the more recent merging of OSX and iOS as I imagine there will be (/is) some growing pains to be had there. None of my macs have crashed this past year at all (though the lappy has run out of juice now and then but that's not really the same thing.)

I have an old Adobe suite here at home on my win XP desktop and the kids have a Win 7 lappy while I have my mac lappy. *shrug* Aside from obvious differences in processing power due to age they all are about the same. As long as they all get internet. :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

I don't despise anything that grows my money 50% in a year.Have you considered dappling in slavery or drug trade? :smalltongue:

[AtlanteanTroll]

Have you considered dappling in slavery or drug trade? :smalltongue:

Better yet, human trafficking and selling your Kidneys.

[Juggling Goth]

You know. Them. The evil corporations. Those who we require, sustain and brought into being yet still despise.

That's the fella! Hey, I'm aware of the whole global political/economic context. Don't ask if it's perfect/revolutionary/entirely consistent. Just ask if it's better than nothing. And ethicalish shopping is better than nothing.

"Bad guys" here should be taken to mean people profiting from industries/practices I disagree with, rather than some kind of paranoid conspiracy theory. It's a convenient and subjective shorthand; don't take it too seriously.

[Androgeus]

Selling your Kidneys.

Shame you have such a limited supply.

[The Succubus]

You are quite right. I need to do something to increase my stock levels. Have a sip on this suspiciously flavoured drink while I think of way how. :smallamused:

[Rockphed]

Modern windows boxes should not be crashing notably often. My latest gaming box(win 7) hasn't gone down yet save for once when the power went out. I leave it on 24/7. Modern macs should be comparably reliable(my roommate has a couple, all of our computers are pretty solid).

I would not consider the performance of OSes in the early 90s at all relevant to a modern comparison of manufacturers.

My windows laptop used to crash about once a day. Then I gave its fans space and it no longer crashes(except when the fans get blocked).

[Mando Knight]

Lots of mac hate here I see. I love them and have been working on them professionally since the days of system 7. OS X far superior than OS9 and before. I'm not sure I entirely trust the more recent merging of OSX and iOS as I imagine there will be (/is) some growing pains to be had there. None of my macs have crashed this past year at all (though the lappy has run out of juice now and then but that's not really the same thing.)

I have an old Adobe suite here at home on my win XP desktop and the kids have a Win 7 lappy while I have my mac lappy. *shrug* Aside from obvious differences in processing power due to age they all are about the same. As long as they all get internet. :smalltongue:
Oh, I'm sure the Macs themselves run just fine. I just hate the corporate policy that you chain yourself to by buying one... the 30-some % profit margins that they get by somehow selling the same grade of hardware as competitors, but for hundreds more; the lack of aftermarket expandability compared to competitor products; and the comparatively poor third-party software support due to fallout from issues from the '90s...

[Trog]

Oh, I'm sure the Macs themselves run just fine. I just hate the corporate policy that you chain yourself to by buying one... the 30-some % profit margins that they get by somehow selling the same grade of hardware as competitors, but for hundreds more; the lack of aftermarket expandability compared to competitor products; and the comparatively poor third-party software support due to fallout from issues from the '90s...
Last time I checked I didn't chain myself to any corporate policy. :smalltongue:

They are, indeed, too expensive for what they are. Pretty hard to argue otherwise. The aftermarket expandability problems I 100% agree with you on. It's my opinion that this is how Apple gets you. In nearly every mac (or at least nearly every mac I have encountered over the years) there is some key component you cannot swap out. Usually the VRAM. And then a few years on the newest OS has a requirement that your machine cannot handle nor can you upgrade said component meaning you either stop upgrading your mac or have to buy a new one. This low threshold also would interfere with running high-end games. If they offered a decent amount of VRAMor a way to expand it macs would remain relavent longer. By building it just barely above where it needs to be to run the OS they ensure obsolescence in three to five years. You can get Macs with a longer shelf life by buying the highest end ones available but, again, you pay through the nose for that longevity.

Third party software support has improved slowly over the years. But there's always going to be some software out there that is mac only or PC only (or now iOS only). On the whole there isn't much I find I miss out on there anymore (ymmv).

All this said, I love the operating system. If they made the OS to work on windows machines (without all the hackintosh stuff associated with setting one up because, frankly, I don't want to have to work that hard to keep my OS running properly so all work arounds are not worth the effort for me, personally) I'd swap to PC only, install OSX and never look back.

[Greenish]

Last time I checked I didn't chain myself to any corporate policy.It's in small print buried in middle of the EULA, between the part where you promise the life of your firstborn child to the company and the one where you relinquish all claims to your own immortal soul.

[The Succubus]

Thank heavens fo Open GPL - at least my soul will be able to get around a bit in the afterlife. :smallwink:

[Surrealistik]

It's in small print buried in middle of the EULA, between the part where you promise the life of your firstborn child to the company and the one where you relinquish all claims to your own immortal soul.

It should be noted that Asmodeus is the patron god of big business.

As to enterprises of slavery and the drug trade, I'm not quite sure why I'd deal with (typically) illegal profit opportunities when there are more rewarding lawful ones that feature a small fraction of the risk. :smalltongue:

[qbit]

I prefer not to use apples for a number of reasons, not all of them good.

I'm used to windows and I don't like change
I dislike the status associated with Mac products
It's more expensive
Less programs are compatible.
I dislike how Mister Fry, and I love that guy, goes on and on about how horrible windows is, it makes me feel like the underdog.
I dislike the peoples in general that decry one over the other, when they are still so close together that it's different for everyone which would be best for them, and then if they get a wrong one, it's not as if they are crippled. And in my experience the mac guys are the loudest about that.

[Trog]

It's in small print buried in middle of the EULA, between the part where you promise the life of your firstborn child to the company and the one where you relinquish all claims to your own immortal soul.
*produces hard copy of the agreement and flips through it*

*flipflipflipflipflip flip flip ... flip* ... Ah, here it is.

*reads*

*reads*

*reads some more, squinting*

*Looks up*

Trog stands corrected. o.o

[GolemsVoice]

The amusing thing is that, as laid down in the "Soul Claiming Act" of 1959, each soul can only be owned as a single entity by one owner, and cannot be split or rented out in any other capacity than the whole thing. So you should promise your soul to as many companies as you can and then watch them FIGHT over it.