[PF] Max AC Potential

[Gandolfi Feesh]

Hey guys,

Looking for tips on how to improve my AC to full potential.
It's a gladiatorial arena battle, we're level 20, no items and either pure barb or fighter. (I'm Barb)
I'm maxing out at 52 (shown below), anyone have any ideas on how to boost it further?

Thanks.

Savage Barbarian Archetype:
1: Naked Courage - +6 Dodge
2: Natural Toughness - +5 Natural

Feats:
1: Shield of Swings - +4 Shield (2H Weapon)
2: Imp Nat Armor x3 - +3 Nat
3: Dodge - +1 Dodge
4: Combat Expertise: +6 Dodge

Rage Powers:
1: Beast Totem - +6 Natural
2: Guarded Stance - +4 Dodge
3: Raging - -2 AC

Racial:
1: Dex 24 - +7 Dex
2: Underfoot - +1 Vs. Larger Opponents
3: Small - +1 size

[grarrrg]

Natural Armor bonuses do not stack, unless they explicitly say that they do.

I'll poke around, may replay later.

[Gandolfi Feesh]

Natural Armor bonuses do not stack, unless they explicitly say that they do..

These ones stack, just confirmed it in Hero Lab there.

[Suddo]

Pathfinder Only or 3.P?

[jmelesky]

Savage Barbarian allows shields, so drop the 2H weapon, and pick up a Heavy Shield +5 (total +7 shield bonus vs. the +4 Shield of Swings).

[Gandolfi Feesh]

Savage Barbarian allows shields, so drop the 2H weapon, and pick up a Heavy Shield +5 (total +7 shield bonus vs. the +4 Shield of Swings).

Shield can only be masterwork quality

[Cieyrin]

These ones stack, just confirmed it in Hero Lab there.

Hero Lab's wrong, then, since I'm looking at Beast Totem and Natural Toughness and neither make any exceptions or are enhancement bonuses to natural armor, like how an Amulet of Natural Armor would stack as an enhancement bonus to natural armor if you already have some natural armor.

You may want to look at Crane Style to boost your AC further, as, if you go the full chain, you can get +4 dodge for -1 to attacks, plus a free melee block and riposte for smacking somebody in the gob.

[Pilo]

Pathfinder Synthesist:
Biped base form
Base: 10 +Max eidolon bonus: 16 + Base Form AC: 2 + Greater Shielded Meld: 4 + Base Dexterity: 5 + Five time Improved Natural Armor (Ex) evolution:10 + Three Ability Increase (Ex)(Dexterity) evolutions: 3 +Mage Armor:4 + haste:1 + Cat's grace:2 + Shield: 4

Result: 61 without equipment and 50 without magic.

And it is even not optimal!

[Crasical]

Pathfinder Synthesist:
Biped base form
Base: 10 +Max eidolon bonus: 16 + Base Form AC: 2 + Greater Shielded Meld: 4 + Base Dexterity: 5 + Five time Improved Natural Armor (Ex) evolution:10 + Three Ability Increase (Ex)(Dexterity) evolutions: 3 +Mage Armor:4 + haste:1 + Cat's grace:2 + Shield: 4

Result: 61 without equipment and 50 without magic.

And it is even not optimal!

Gladiator game, Fighter or Barb only.

[jmelesky]

Shield can only be masterwork quality

Ah. Stuff that, then. You can get +4 with a shield (heavy shield, shield specialization, greater shield spec.), but only as a fighter and that's equal to your shield of swings.

If you went with a Shielded Fighter archetype, you'd get an additional +5 dodge AC when combat expertising (total +11). Add the +4 from shield. Not sure what mundane armor is available (if any). If you can get banded mail, that's +7, but only +1 from dex (since you gave that up for the combat expertise bonuses).

That's not fully tweaked, but it's still a very far distance from 52, so i'd say stick with the barbarian.

[Khantin]

urban barbarian archetype can rage for dex instead of str/con, if you wanted it that badly.

[jmelesky]

urban barbarian archetype can rage for dex instead of str/con, if you wanted it that badly.

And that does combine with Savage Barbarian with no conflicts, so possibly a good idea.

[grarrrg]

Savage Barbarian > Naked Courage only gives a +3 Dodge bonus to AC (3rd, and every SIX levels)


For the most part you don't have to worry about Saves, or Skills, so DUMP your mental Stats as far as you can.
Are you doing Point Buy? Rolling? Set Array?


Since this is a Barb/Fighter only game (and presumably 1vs1) you don't have to worry about Sneak Attacks, so take/stack an Archetype that trades Uncanny Dodge away.
I also just noticed that Savage loses Damage Reduction. Given that a Fighter can really only inflict Physical damage it might be worth it to keep DR.

Invulnerable Rager + Urban Barbarian nets you DR 10 (add the Increased DR rage power to increase it up to 13), and a "choose your own" rage (total of +8 Str/Dex/Con, no AC penalty).

The other best choice would be Titan Mauler for the ability to go Large.
As always, take the Totem archetype.

It may also be worth it to get a Bite attack, your Str should let it beat most DR

You have Tireless Rage, so feel free to Rage-Cycle your 1/rage powers.

Crippling Blow is DEFINATELY worth a look. And the Str damage is only halved on a successful save so your guaranteed to weaken them.

Elemental Rage is nice, giving all of your attacks 1d6 [energy] damage.

Fiend Totem, Lesser gives you a Gore attack.

Regenerative Vigor would be nice but does NOT work if you Rage-cycle.

[deuxhero]

Gaining a miss chance (without items, Wind Stance tree is the first to come to mind though) is better than raw AC

[Cieyrin]

Gaining a miss chance (without items, Wind Stance tree is the first to come to mind though) is better than raw AC

Wind and Lightning Stance aren't very good if you want to do anything besides turtling, since Wind only works against ranged and Lightning requires a full round.

[Gandolfi Feesh]

Invulnerable Rager + Urban Barbarian nets you DR 10 (add the Increased DR rage power to increase it up to 13), and a "choose your own" rage (total of +8 Str/Dex/Con, no AC penalty).

Where can I find Urban Barbarian???

Never mind, Ultimate Combat.

[grarrrg]

You know, before we go Maxing you AC, we should see if it's even possible to get it high enough and/or how high it needs to be to be useful.

From what I've gleaned so far, everyone is Barb 20, or Fighter 20 (any archetype). And the only allowed Items are Masterwork Weapons/Armor.

Fighter
20 Bab
+4 Weapon Training (+5 w/certain Archetypes)
+5 Str (assuming 20 Str, could be higher/lower)
+1 Masterwork Weapon
= +30
This is the Low-Estimate, add the 2 Weapon Focus feats for an extra +2, and his Str could be as high as 26 (18+4(Orc)+4(levels), for another +3.
So vs. a Fighter you would need at least 30 AC for it to be relevant to the First attack, and around 50+ AC to be safe from all but Critical hits (and remember that with Weapon Mastery a Fighter auto-confirms Critical Damage).

Barb
20 Bab
+9 Str (assuming 20 Str +8 from Rage)
+1 Masterwork
= +30
Same as baseline Fighter, again this is the low estimate. Weapon Focus +1, and max Str +3 could make it closer to +34. Add Surprise Accuracy +6, and it's around +40.
You'd need 40 AC to be relevant vs. the First attack, and _60_ AC to be immune to all but Criticals.


Also, be wary of Armor Master Fighters. They can trade their Weapon Training in for Armor bonuses that include DR 12/- (heavy armor), and Immunity to Critical Hits.
Most Fighters otherwise have DR 5 when wearing Armor.

Yet another reason why Crippling Blow should be your main path to victory. You can damage either Str or Dex (5 damage if they fail their Fort Save, 2 damage if they make it, and they probably will)
Dex is probably the faster way to win, as his Dex is likely lower than Str, and each Crippling makes him easier to hit
But Str is the safer way, with each hit reducing his ability to hurt you.

Hive Totem Toxicity and it's Con damage would be better than either of the above except it requires _3_ other Rage powers, 2 of which won't do you much/any good. AND the Con damage is prevented if they make _1_ Fort Save (which is likely).
On the other hand, even 1 Failed save can send them on a slippery slope to oblivion.

[Infernalbargain]

Try master of many styles 2 / Kensai 18.

Here it depends on how good your stats are. Assuming a 30 pt buy, going elf. Pre-racial stats of 10 16 10 16 16 10. Buying ring of deflection +5, amulet of nat armor +5, bracers of armor +8, +1 defending (other stuff) scimitar, belt of incredible dexterity +6, headband of mental prowess +6 (int and wisdom), tome of dexterity +5. There should be some spare cash leftover. This gives us a 34 Dex, 24 int, and 22 wis. Using spell combat to cast shield, fighting defensively, taking crane style tree with master of many styles I believe I get into the 70's.

AC: 10 + 12 Dex + 7 int + 6 wis + 5 deflection + 5 nat armor + 8 armor + 4 shield + 5 defending (use greater magic weapon to boost the enhancement bonus) + 4 combat expertise + 4 fighting defensively = 70.

Now if you allow a generous reading of monstrous physique to allow you to turn into a diminuitive version of yourself on the second round of combat and take the bane blade arcana, I get another 8 AC to bring things up to 78.

[Cieyrin]

Monk/Magus Build

2 Problems:
1) Barbarian/Fighter only
2) No magic items

[GreenZ]

Personally, like stated above, AC is going to be near useless at this level.

But, that doesn't mean you have to take any damage. I have a really neat Barbarian build I like to call 'Tryndamere'. :smallcool:

Ferocious Tenacity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ferocious-tenacity-combat) lets you reduce damage that would kill you down to 1 by spending rounds of rage, the exact amount dependent on your Raging Con score.

Diehard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/diehard---final), although it requires Endurance, will keep you up even at negative health.

Deathless Initiate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deathless-initiate-combat) not only gives you full turns while staggered but also increases you attack and damage while under 0.

The Guarded Life (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/guarded-life-ex) Rage Power not only reduces the single point of damage you would take after Ferocious Tenacity to 0 (Non-leathal) but also removes the damage you take from Diehard.

Even with only 30 Raging Con, not difficult to achieve, you reduce the damage that would kill you by 10 per round of rage spent. With likely 60+ rounds of rage you can essentially negate over 600 damage by spending rage.

Mix and match other barbarian and feat things as you desire, you can even dump Dex because even at a negative AC (Easily achievable through Rage Powers, Raging, and a negative Dex) you are nearly impossible to kill so long as you are Raging and have enough Rounds of Rage left to spend. :smallbiggrin:

[Cieyrin]

Personally, like stated above, AC is going to be near useless at this level.

...when was that stated? grarrrg's analysis shows that the achievable AC the OP already has is relevant, since the low was 40 AC and the OP already had 52, which means your average 20th Barbarian needs an 18 to hit. Seems relevant to me.


Diehard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/diehard---final), although it requires Endurance, will keep you up even at negative health.

Deathless Initiate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deathless-initiate-combat) not only gives you full turns while staggered but also increases you attack and damage while under 0.

Dipping a level of Unbreakable Fighter will get you Endurance and Diehard in one fell swoop, meaning you can pick up Deathless Initiate at the same level if you time it right.