OOTS #841 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Chess Tyrant]

Huh. Any guesses as to what killed them?

[Dumbledore lives]

Oh lawdy this looks bad. Can't wait for the next comic.

[Chaotic Queen]

{scrubbed}

Somehow I knew they were dead.

[MaximKat]

What the..?

{scrubbed}

[Halleflux]

Huh. Any guesses as to what killed them?

Xykon?

Very recent, though. Happened within a day or two, just by looking at the corpse, assuming nothing.... odd.

[RMS Oceanic]

Uh oh. Could it be that

The speculation that V's Familicide killed them all be true?

[t209]

Killed or Mass Suicide or Illusion or Skyrim Draugr mode (looks dead but get up and kill you when disturbed). Doesn't look like Redcloak and looks like they've been dead for a long time (grey and beef jerky texture).

[Chess435]

I see what you meant by "complex art". Great strip as always, Rich. :smallbiggrin:

[Chess Tyrant]

Xykon?

Very recent, though. Happened within a day or two, just by looking at the corpse, assuming nothing.... odd.

Plus:

-Quickly: they were eating lunch when they died.
-Flying: it didn't spring any traps.
-Without casualties: they didn't appear to lose anyone in their attack.
-Without explosions: no damage to the walls, table, or flesh of the dead.
-Without animating them: given the 'no explosions' part, and this, it might not have been Xykon.

One more question: why wasn't the illusion spell dispelled? Or was it dispelled and then recast by someone else, which is why V had such an easy time dispelling it later?

[Kumori]

I think there's a typo in the second panel. Roy's complete sentence is "Agree." Missing a "d" at the end, I think.

[SavageWombat]

Uh oh. Could it be that

The speculation that V's Familicide killed them all be true?

My wife and I were reading it and discussing ... and suddenly looked at each other at the same time.

That's got to be it.

[Jeriah]

Spoiler/Speculation:Draketooth.... they're related to dragons... the entire family apparently died at once...
V killed them with the epic level spell.

[Grey Watcher]

Oh my....

I have to wonder who did this? And when?

No signs of violence. Bodies left un-zombified. No desecration or mutilation of the remains. Just a cafeteria full of rotting corpses that apparently up and died wherever they stood or sat. This doesn't really fit the MO of any of our current roster of villains....

[with an e]

Given that they all seem to have died a while ago, and that they are at the dinner table, I would guess
a member of the clan betrayed and poisoned the rest. It would be a fittingly karmic end for someone like Girard, who violently distrusted everyone except members of his family.

[Quild]

Xykon?

Very recent, though. Happened within a day or two, just by looking at the corpse, assuming nothing.... odd.

Wouldn't they be undead if it was Xykon?

Could be an illusion!

[Boogastreehouse]

Hmmm... Dead for a while, I think, but not long enough to have stopped rotting and stinking...

Couple weeks, maybe?

In that case, I don't think it could have been Team Awesome Evil or the Linear guild.

Unless the IFCC is involved, I think we may be looking at the handiwork of... another Side. Dun dun duuuhhh!

[Zeta Kai]

Nice subtle reference to Elan's former career as a herald.

[Draconian]

Dang.. that ain't too encouraging..

Wait.. they transferred their souls into the beetles.. right? Right?

[Teutonic Knight]

I think there's a typo in the second panel. Roy's complete sentence is "Agree." Missing a "d" at the end, I think.

Haley's sentence, and yes I believe so as well.

Also, is OotS art content getting more and more graphic? First an implosion with sound effects, then a guy getting ripped in half, and not rotting corpses infested with scarabs(?). Just an observation. Nothing more to read into.

[Fishman]

Well, none of them show any apparent sign of injury and whatever killed them happened very quickly, and simultaneously. They weren't poisoned by the food or anything, as some of them were apparently still carrying their food when they suddenly died.

Other odd things: There are many insects, but both the bodies and food are apparently untouched. With so many insects, it seems unlikely that the bodies would not have been eaten by now.

I'm going with "fake". This is some kind of standing distractionary illusion. Although "V Killed Them" is a pretty funny theory that would fit the potential timeframe. Doesn't quite explain how the bugs haven't eaten any of them, though.

[Petey7]

Uh oh. Could it be that

The speculation that V's Familicide killed them all be true?

I'm thinking that that is the case. I thought it seemed like an interesting but highly unlikely idea at first, but now it seems quite probable.

[t209]

Hmmm... Dead for a while, I think, but not long enough to have stopped rotting and stinking...

Couple weeks, maybe?

Or they may be Skyrim Draugr.
(looks dead but if you disturb them, they get up and kill you.)
Minus the vikings.

[Chaotic Queen]

There's no way they died recently. The flesh is tightening around their bones, so they've been dead for some time now.

[oppyu]

And now we find out what smells worse than normal humans.

Option 1: Illusion. Put there to convince people to get out as quickly as possible, or lull them into a false sense of security.

Option 2: V's familicide. I didn't think of it until I read it in the forums, but it could be possible. Seems like a stretch though.

Option 3: Team Evil got there first (we don't know how much time passed between strips) and found a way to do that. Seems unlikely.

So I'm thinking illusion.

[Porthos]

Huh.

Well that ain't good.

[Beanjamish]

Wonder if what killed them is related in some way to Penelope's death. Someone silencing everyone who even had a strong relation with a Draketooth.

Or yeah, could be an illusion.

Try Speak with Dead!

[ti'esar]

Well... crap. Guess that's the Draketeeth out of the picture.

As several people have mentioned already, maybe that guy who thought Familicide killed them off by virtue of being related to dragons was onto something after all. Between the lack of any obvious injuries, the fact that they've been dead for some time, and the way it looks to have been instantaneous for everyone, it certainly looks that way.

Edit: Re-posted below.

[BigFatLion]

Okay, I didn't see that coming.

[Grey Watcher]

Uh oh. Could it be that

The speculation that V's Familicide killed them all be true?


Spoiler/Speculation:Draketooth.... they're related to dragons... the entire family apparently died at once...
V killed them with the epic level spell.

That certainly seems to fit the available evidence best. Xykon would prefer a mode of death that involved more screaming and pain than these people seem to have suffered. Redcloak would have wanted to either animate or desecrate the remains. I don't think Tarquin, Nale, and their associates have the raw power to have killed so many so suddenly.

It also makes me wonder if the Draketooth "tattoo" isn't a tattoo at all, but some physiological quirk of draconic ancestry....

[Niesra]

I usually don't comment here but O_O and this just reminded me why I like OotS so much. So many questions, so much to speculate, so eager for the next comic. I definitely wasn't expecting this one. I can feel the tension, it's so... tense.

[PirateMonk]

Insomnia pays off!

Well. That probably isn't good. It can't be a non-epic illusion, since Durkon has True Seeing (although he hasn't looked at it on-panel yet). Familicide is possible, but seems like a stretch. How long ago was it? I'm going to go with "something we don't know about yet."

Edit: Or epic level illusion, actually. I need sleep.

[OmniknightJohn]

And now we find out what smells worse than normal humans.

Option 1: Illusion. Put there to convince people to get out as quickly as possible, or lull them into a false sense of security.

-snip-

So I'm thinking illusion.

I agree. This is an illusion, to throw people who are blatantly looking for the Gate off, while the Draketooth Clan is safe elsewhere. These kinds of permanent illusions (to create the smell in the canyon as a false trail) are more in line with an epic level Illusionist, and the petty traps leading into the temple only reinforce this: the Draketooth clan wants people to enter and think they were all murdered in the temple.

[The Wanderer]

Oh. Oh my.

Hmm... it's interesting, there don't seem to be any signs of wounds or anything, no blood, no damage to the bodies... my initial though is to wonder about poisoning and disease. It seems to have hit them all at once though, so maybe poison or something like a water source becoming contaminated?

Maybe an enemy we know nothing about already got to them on an unrelated matter?

That said, the suggestion that this is an illusion might be a good one too.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

So, is what we are seeing "real?" :smallconfused:

Girard is an Epic Illusionist. How hard would it be to make a scene where "they were all killed. Let's try somewhere else."

Not sure why Girard would do that, but you cant say he cant do that.

[Gift Jeraff]

Must have been a pretty bad lunch.

[ti'esar]

I'm not thinking illusion - seems a bit too elaborate - but Girard is (was?) paranoid/crazy enough that I won't completely rule it out. We do still have the question of overly-feeble traps if this is the real deal, so that's one point in favor.

[t209]

That certainly seems to fit the available evidence best. Xykon would prefer a mode of death that involved more screaming and pain than these people seem to have suffered. Redcloak would have wanted to either animate or desecrate the remains. I don't think Tarquin, Nale, and their associates have the raw power to have killed so many so suddenly.

It also makes me wonder if the Draketooth "tattoo" isn't a tattoo at all, but some physiological quirk of draconic ancestry....

What if they've done mass suicide or mass skyrim draugr (looks dead but they could wake up and kill you).
Is there any spell that can use dead body to reanimate when someone came by?

[oppyu]

Where has it been said that the Draketooth clan are related to dragons? That seems like an extremely offputting conception story.

[Chess435]

I agree with the "illusion" theory. Though it'd have to be epic to bypass Durkon's True Seeing.

[CloakedDancer]

Awesome. Staying up late for a comic worked out for once! :smallbiggrin:

[The Wanderer]

So, is what we are seeing "real?" :smallconfused:

Girard is an Epic Illusionist. How hard would it be to make a scene where "they were all killed. Let's try somewhere else."

Not sure why Girard would do that, but you cant say he cant do that.

It doesn't seem like someone finding this scene would be discouraged from going after the Gate. The only thing it would do is give Girard and company time to watch them and do a little scouting.

I tend to lean towards it not being an illusion, just because it doesn't seem to do enough for Girard/the defense of the Gate, but I freely admit that I don't tend to think like an illusionist or a trickster, so I could be wrong.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Time is an Illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

:smallwink:

[LuPuWei]

I'm surprised people haven't considered it might be

an illusion.

I'm not saying it is for sure, but I'm holding my breath for the next strip (and trying not to pass out as a result) The thing about this gate is we can never really be sure, can we?

Edit: Ok, some people have considered it between the time I started posting and the time I posted :smalltongue:

[Niesra]

Hi! I do not know how illusions work in DnD. Could anyone help me? I guess the stench can be easily simulated, but can Illusions be dormant and then triggered? Last this long? Include sounds? Do they fool all the senses (including touch)? etc. Again, sorry in advance for my ignorance and thanks to anyone who answers! :)

[ti'esar]

Where has it been said that the Draketooth clan are related to dragons? That seems like an extremely offputting conception story.

It's just been a theory so far, based off Girard's name and magical talent, and until recently it's primarily been advanced as a way he could still be alive.

[Fruchtkracher]

Well, judging from the fact they seem to be mostly mummified already, which means they're dead for quite a while, leads to the conclusion that it may have been indeed V's doing :smallsigh:

But for that Girard would have needed to be part black dragon, which seems unlikely.

[Giddon]

Uh oh. Could it be that

The speculation that V's Familicide killed them all be true?

Im pretty sure its this ooor:

This is an illusion. it would be a pretty good way to distract intruders so Girard and his crew can get the drop on them

[Onikani]

Hi! I do not know how illusions work in DnD. Could anyone help me? I guess the stench can be easily simulated, but can Illusions be dormant and then triggered? Last this long? Include sounds? Do they fool all the senses (including touch)? etc. Again, sorry in advance for my ignorance and thanks to anyone who answers! :)

Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.
Granted, not every illusion spell can, but an epic level illusionist could easily set this up...

Haven't said that, i'm still betting on this being reality.
And whatever did this is related to what killed Tarquin's most recent wife.


EDIT - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html

[t209]

I think it is really an illusion.
1. Belkar (and Elan) can only smell the corpses.
2. Rotting Corpses' stench are strong for both humans and sentient creatures within that distance.
3. The Order didn't complain or comment on the rotting corpses's smell before coming in the room.

[MyNameIsSecret]

It could very well be an illusion. But still... eek. :smalleek:

Great comic again, Giant.

EDIT: Also, I think I spot an art error in panel 1, where Durkon's tongue seems to be transparent.

[GuySmiley1970]

What's odd is that Roy specifically asked Belkar a few strips ago if what he smelled was rotting corpses, and Belkar said "no". Maybe Girard couldn't quite get the smell element of the illusion right?

[Porthos]

Uh oh. Could it be that

The speculation that V's Familicide killed them all be true?


Spoiler/Speculation:Draketooth.... they're related to dragons... the entire family apparently died at once...
V killed them with the epic level spell.


That certainly seems to fit the available evidence best. Xykon would prefer a mode of death that involved more screaming and pain than these people seem to have suffered. Redcloak would have wanted to either animate or desecrate the remains. I don't think Tarquin, Nale, and their associates have the raw power to have killed so many so suddenly.

It also makes me wonder if the Draketooth "tattoo" isn't a tattoo at all, but some physiological quirk of draconic ancestry....

Here's an interesting twist to this idea:

If ANYONE would be able to withstand/repel/protect themselves against Familicide, it'll be an Epic Level Mage.

So, if this was Familicide (and it seems almost too pat for it to be that, but lets run with that for a moment) there is a possibility he survived.

And given just how paranoid Girard has proven to be, I doubt he's going to be very predisposed to listening to V's explanations on how this was just an awful coincidence.

[Chess Tyrant]

That certainly seems to fit the available evidence best. Xykon would prefer a mode of death that involved more screaming and pain than these people seem to have suffered. Redcloak would have wanted to either animate or desecrate the remains. I don't think Tarquin, Nale, and their associates have the raw power to have killed so many so suddenly.

It also makes me wonder if the Draketooth "tattoo" isn't a tattoo at all, but some physiological quirk of draconic ancestry....

The time of death, as well as Penelope's, fits, but the logic is a bit finicky. For one thing, as far as we know, Familicide kills the targets immediate family, and their immediate family. Even if Draketooth was part of the ABD's immediate family (say, half-dragon brother), then his immediate family (descendants, etc) would die, but the kidnapped children wouldn't. Also, Penelope isn't directly related to Girard - she married his presumed son.

It is possible that Familicide kills more than two rounds of targets and people related by marriage, but from what we know, it couldn't have offed the entire clan.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Normally I don't comment on the new strip posts, but I did have to say I found the image of the dead little girl lying next to apparently her mother's outstretched arms very sad and depressing.

[WyvernLord]

Throwing out what will probably be a theory disproven in the next strip. But I'm blaming a mummy curse.
(I wonder how fast you all will disprove me.)

[Draconian]

What if they've done mass suicide

Seems too disorderly to be a ritualistic mass suicide. Seems unlikely people would want to die with their faces on a plate of food.

[Petey7]

Where has it been said that the Draketooth clan are related to dragons? That seems like an extremely offputting conception story.

In the 3.5 players handbook it says that many believe that sorcerers (which Girard is one of) are distant relative of dragons. I few days ago someone speculated that sorcerers are related to dragons in OotS and that V's casting of familicide had the unfortunately effect of killing all of the Draketooths.

[hrak]

As it was pointed out, the bugs have not eaten the people or the food on the table. Yet, the bodies all look to be long sense dead. Thus, this is an epic illusion as stated before me and is flocking bugs to it because of the illusion smell.

The only other possible answer is that these particular scarabs dont eat rotting flesh... but why are the bugs there then? and why is the food still there?

[Lorin]

Nice strip. Really nice. I think we can vote out familicide version - it seems to be too long ago (Month or so), and corpses look relatively fresh (a few days, maybe a week). So, i guess it's illusion or poison, maybe some sort of ritual.

[Kolero]

Wow, that would be quite the red harring if it was the illusion. If an illusion, why not the bodies of adventerers or tough looking guards? It seems that if this was an illusion, it would only really work on people who know about the draketooth family and were expecting them to be there... So unless the draketooths there spying on the order(possible fm the trap in the desert) this would be a pretty pointless illusion.

As much as I think V's familicide is too far out, too simple... The time and manner of deaths is explained by it well... that's scary.

Third option would be an inside job... Some poison... Will be interesting to see what comes of this.

[Petey7]

The time of death, as well as Penelope's, fits, but the logic is a bit finicky. For one thing, as far as we know, Familicide kills the targets immediate family, and their immediate family. Even if Draketooth was part of the ABD's immediate family (say, half-dragon brother), then his immediate family (descendants, etc) would die, but the kidnapped children wouldn't. Also, Penelope isn't directly related to Girard - she married his presumed son.

It is possible that Familicide kills more than two rounds of targets and people related by marriage, but from what we know, it couldn't have offed the entire clan.

It was stated in the main comic that about 1/4 of all the black dragons in the world were killed when V caste the spell, so it seems to be more than the immediate family.

[Draconian]

As it was pointed out, the bugs have not eaten the people or the food on the table. Yet, the bodies all look to be long sense dead. Thus, this is an epic illusion as stated before me and is flocking bugs to it because of the illusion smell.

The only other possible answer is that these particular scarabs dont eat rotting flesh... but why are the bugs there then? and why is the food still there?

Or the corpses themselves have decayed at an accelerated rate?

[The MunchKING]

I noticed a LOT of them are red-heads, and at least one was wearing the Gerard-style ponytail...

[Seabyrn]

Wow. I have to say that the strips are looking better and better. They started good of course, but comparing say, the perspective of this last panel with that of the first few strips, it's really impressive how much the art has grown (to say nothing of the story and characters).

Only one reason this is a million dollar comic (I love saying that), but it's one that will keep me here to the end and beyond to whatever Rich does next.

[MammonAzrael]

That is gruesome. I'm continually amazed at what you can do with stick figures.

[Fish]

The clock turned red.

(Or am I the only one who is immediately reminded of Stephen King's "The Stand?")

Or ... yeah, I agree with the above speculations of
Familicide or illusion, leaning toward the former.

Did. Not. Expect.

[The MunchKING]

I think there's a typo in the second panel. Roy's complete sentence is "Agree." Missing a "d" at the end, I think.

I've heard "Agree" used to mean "I agree" when the person is being a little lazy.

[Froklsnt]

I'm assuming the insects are supposed to be scarabs - corpse-eating beetles. Goes nicely with the desert theme :smallbiggrin:

Orrin isn't among the "dead" (if this is real), the face tattoo and haircut shown in #816 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html) is nowhere to be found

[Niesra]

Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.
Granted, not every illusion spell can, but an epic level illusionist could easily set this up...

Haven't said that, i'm still betting on this being reality.
And whatever did this is related to what killed Tarquin's most recent wife.

EDIT - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html

Thanks for clearing that up! It seemed that they would think it might be an illusion and try non-magical ways of confirming (e.g. having Yukyuk be bitten by the bugs, eat the food, the corpses, etc.) But even if an epic-level illusionist could set it up, I still side with this being reality, specially since I do not see how this helps them guard the gate, specially since they just seem to be in the middle of lunch.

I hadn't considered it, but now that you mention it I do think it could be connected to the death of Tarquin's most recent wife.

[t209]

I think it is really an illusion.
1. Belkar (and Elan) can only smell the corpses.
2. Rotting Corpses' stench are strong for both humans and sentient creatures within that distance.
3. The Order didn't complain or comment on the rotting corpses's smell before coming in the room.

Scratch that, Durkon can smell the death.

[Lorin]

By the way, loved how unphased Roy looks. And as i said - familicide was quite a long time ago. A month or so...

[hrak]

Or the corpses themselves have decayed at an accelerated rate?

While this is possible, there is no reason for this unless we are misinterpreting the art to be rot when it really is dehydration of the desert at a fast rate. However I still believe its an illusion because the bugs seem to be trying to eat the food and corpses without progress. And many are flying about.
Though I guess that could just be the art again...
I think we will have to wait for the characters to speak.

[Shatteredtower]

That Draketooth feller sure has odd taste in sculpture.

[darkelf]

i'm gonna call illusion. one, draketooth's an illusionist. the art of illusion isn't hiding the ball, it's making someone believe there was ever a ball in the first place. two, his family isn't likely all dead, because someone was watching (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

[Alex Warlorn]

Spoiler/Speculation:Draketooth.... they're related to dragons... the entire family apparently died at once...
V killed them with the epic level spell.

@-@ (Insert biggest colorful metaphor you know here.).

V. I suggest you see your dwarf buddy about a repentance spell already. And Penelope's death . . . oh crude. Unless there are Sith Thought Bombs in this campaign world I think . . . familycide.

It being an illusion is about the only NICE possibility.

And the fact the illusions weren't dispelled . . . :-( It all adds up.

It being a family member who stabbed them in the back is poetic, but it sadly doesn't add up, they all died where they stood! :-(

Damn . . . just . . . this is horrid.

The fiends took control of V for a five rounds! (30 seconds)! One to teleport to a family member, two to kill them, three to turn them into an undead, four for familicide, and five to teleport back! If this is so.

[Arcadian]

I want to say this is an illusion - a ploy to cause an intrusive party to try elsewhere.

However... it is extremely detailed for a ploy that adventurers may never stumble upon. And, finding a room full of dead bodies with the cause of death so unspecified would cause even a less composed adventurer to dig around and figure out what caused anything. Just as Haley and Roy discussed when they found Girard's first illusion in the desert, an illusion situated at their actual location may cause the party to redouble their efforts and search even harder.

[with an e]

On consequence of a theory I'd like to mention:
That the Draketooths died from Familicide is mutually exclusive with another theory that Ian is related to the Draketooths, because Haley is still alive.

[Red XIV]

The notion that Girard is part of the ABD's bloodline because he has the last name "Draketooth" is very weak. And let's remember, a drake is a lesser dragon. Probably not something you'd find many of in the ABD's bloodline.

Anyway, something seems amiss about the smell here. Belkar of all people should have a pretty good idea of what a dead human smells like. I suppose an unusual cause of death could result in an unusual spell for the corpses, but still.

Also, I didn't see anybody that appeared to be Girard or Orrin in that room.

[Azukar]

That panel made me feel really sad, even though I don't know who they are. It really looks like the entire lot of them just died where they sat or stood, no inclination that they knew what was coming.

So, I really doubt it was Team Xykon.

[MoonCat]

Congrats Giant. Stomach turning and sad.

[Chess Tyrant]

There's another thing that should be mentioned regarding Familicide: it's unlikely that all the Draketooths are dead, just from a plot standpoint - Girard and/or some distant relatives are probably alive. It's also possible that the Familicide spell hit a portion of the clan, but not all of it, for reasons I explained in my last post: even if Girard was the ABD's direct sibling, some members of the clan are 3-4 levels of relationship away from her. (Sibling, son, grandson, at minimum.)

But, if Girard resisted the spell and a few of his closer relations were killed, he's paranoid enough to assume that someone was targeting him with the spell directly. There's also a good chance he's scried the other Gates/knows that an epic necromancer has taken an interest in wiping him out. It would make sense for him to set up an illusion displaying his entire family, dead from the Familicide spell, when those who were killed at all have since been raised.

(Side note: it's not unreasonable to assume the Draketooth clan owned at least one Ressurrection scroll. If anyone survived, it's likely that the people who were killed, and at least Girard, have since been raised.)

[RMS Oceanic]

i'm gonna call illusion. one, draketooth's an illusionist. the art of illusion isn't hiding the ball, it's making someone believe there was ever a ball in the first place. two, his family isn't likely all dead, because someone was watching (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

I thought that was Z scrying on the area for Nale, because they knew the Order might come a knocking there at some point.

Anywho, if this gruesome scene isn't an illusion, I think we've accelerated towards the climax even faster than I thought we would. It's quite possible we'll have a big throwdown over the gate, possibly with up to four sides involved, within ten strips now.

[Froklsnt]

I had been thinking illusion, but bringing Penelope's death into the mix makes the whole thing seem like too much coincidence for it NOT to be connected. But familicide likely would not kill her, she was no blood relation. So that leaves me thinking

that some baddie who knew about Penelope and the Draketooths must have killed them. And it wasn't Nale or Tarquin based on their conversation. Maybe Sabine acting for the IFCC?

[Grey Watcher]

...and it seems almost too pat for it to be that, but lets run with that for a moment...

I actually can't decide which is too pat: that Familicide would come back to bite the Order in the behind in such a very awful way, or that the Draketooth Clan came up with an illusion that just happens to exactly match up to an even they are very unlikely to have known about in the first place

Given the Giant's skill as a storyteller, that's probably exactly as it should be.



The time of death, as well as Penelope's, fits, but the logic is a bit finicky. For one thing, as far as we know, Familicide kills the targets immediate family, and their immediate family. Even if Draketooth was part of the ABD's immediate family (say, half-dragon brother), then his immediate family (descendants, etc) would die, but the kidnapped children wouldn't. Also, Penelope isn't directly related to Girard - she married his presumed son.

It is possible that Familicide kills more than two rounds of targets and people related by marriage, but from what we know, it couldn't have offed the entire clan.

I, for one, never figured that Penelope's death was related to this. I still assume she was eliminated by Tarquin himself because she was about to dump him to go look for Orrin. And presuming Orrin's been following the MO of his entire family, every single person on this compound is a direct descendant of Girard. And if he was biologically related to the Black Dragon....

[Petey7]

I'm assuming the insects are supposed to be scarabs - corpse-eating beetles. Goes nicely with the desert theme :smallbiggrin:

Orrin isn't among the "dead" (if this is real), the face tattoo and haircut shown in #816 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html) is nowhere to be found

This just made me realize the Orrin's tattoo is exactly the same as Girards, except the it is a mirror image. So, either 1) they are the same person and the Giant accidently did a mirror image of Girards face from a previous comic and forgot that the side of the face was wrong 2) they are more closely related than the other Draketooths are to him, or 3) the Giant had not decided for each Draketooth to have a completely different tattoo at that point.

[ti'esar]

The time of death, as well as Penelope's, fits, but the logic is a bit finicky. For one thing, as far as we know, Familicide kills the targets immediate family, and their immediate family. Even if Draketooth was part of the ABD's immediate family (say, half-dragon brother), then his immediate family (descendants, etc) would die, but the kidnapped children wouldn't. Also, Penelope isn't directly related to Girard - she married his presumed son.

It is possible that Familicide kills more than two rounds of targets and people related by marriage, but from what we know, it couldn't have offed the entire clan.

Ooh, that's a good point. Even if we assume Penelope's death is a coincidence, Familicide still shouldn't have been able to kill off the entire Draketooth clan, which definitely seems to have been the case here.

...Of course, if it wasn't Familicide, then things are even more disturbing. It's not Team Evil's MO. I strongly doubt the Linear Guild is capable of it. Unless the IFCC Directors stepped in personally - which might actually fit a little, considering their Time Stop ability and the apparently instantaneous deaths - we're looking at a genuinely new player here.

Come to think of it, didn't Rich say we'd be seeing another "side" introduced this arc? I wonder if calling that as Tarquin was a bit premature.

As for the illusion theory, my biggest objection: what would it gain? There are three types of people likely to be coming here - those looking for the Gate, those looking for the Draketooths, and adventurers. The last certainly wouldn't be deterred - they'd feel all the more free to loot the place undeterred by anything but passive traps. In Girard's mind, the most likely people to come looking for the Gate would be the Sapphire Guard - given the attitude he's shown towards them, he'd probably conclude their reaction to this would be to take over running the place themselves. So that's out. And if the Penelope-Orrin situation was SOP, then the most likely people to come looking for the Draketooths would be those seeking their children, and in that case they would probably search for the body to bury properly. Would the illusion, epic or not, really hold up for the duration of all that?

There is still the unexpectedly weak defenses so far to account for - if this is real, then it wasn't a decoy after all and they're unexplained. But illusion seems unlikely.

And now for my first ever totally crazy theory:
Girard's gone totally nuts and did it himself. At the very least, one notices his body isn't present.

[NullAshton]

Durkon still has the true seeing spell up, his eyes are still glowing white.

Illusion is doubtful.

[Boogastreehouse]

Or they may be Skyrim Draugr.
(looks dead but if you disturb them, they get up and kill you.)
Minus the vikings.


What if they've done mass suicide or mass skyrim draugr (looks dead but they could wake up and kill you).

Okay seriously, Rich is not going to steal monsters from some popular-today-forgotten-tomorrow video game. He's been planning this story out for a decade, and he would only throw in some reference like that, if he thought of a really funny way to parody it.

Everything in this comic is based on concepts from Dungeons & Dragons, unless its something being parodied in a quick throwaway joke (like the sandworms from Dune).


Is there any spell that can use dead body to reanimate when someone came by?

That spell would be Animate Dead, or one of its higher-level variants. It turns dead bodies into zombies or skeletons or wights (like Tsukiko was constantly doing). It's not a Skyrim spell, it's something that's been well-established in the comic. I think I can confidently promise that he is not referencing Skyrim.

I also don't think that these guys are going to turn out to be animated undead.

[blackspeeker]

That certainly seems to fit the available evidence best. Xykon would prefer a mode of death that involved more screaming and pain than these people seem to have suffered. Redcloak would have wanted to either animate or desecrate the remains. I don't think Tarquin, Nale, and their associates have the raw power to have killed so many so suddenly.

It also makes me wonder if the Draketooth "tattoo" isn't a tattoo at all, but some physiological quirk of draconic ancestry....
A dragon mark of sorts.

[Porthos]

I've heard "Agree" used to mean "I agree" when the person is being a little lazy.

It's not even a case of being lazy, per se, as using a tense:

http://www.englishforums.com/English/AgreeVsAgreed/dnnkd/post.htm

But, yes, I've heard it used that was as well. Especially in military-ish settings or trying to figure out a course of action. The "Agree" is kinda clipped in the way it is said.

So, really, there's plenty of room for this to be intentional.

[Hyozo]

Okay, I'm sure Xykon, the familicide, or some form of illusion are the more non-impossible answers, but the first thing I thought when I saw that scene was "Oh ****, The Drifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836) is back."

[RMS Oceanic]

The notion that Girard is part of the ABD's bloodline because he has the last name "Draketooth" is very weak. And let's remember, a drake is a lesser dragon. Probably not something you'd find many of in the ABD's bloodline.

Anyway, something seems amiss about the smell here. Belkar of all people should have a pretty good idea of what a dead human smells like. I suppose an unusual cause of death could result in an unusual spell for the corpses, but still.

Also, I didn't see anybody that appeared to be Girard or Orrin in that room.

It could also be that where Belkar has smelled corpses before they are...wetter. In a hot desert environment the bodies would have less water and may smell different.

This is baseless speculation however, because I don't know anything about how that works.

[Porthos]

BTW, nice call back to the Up a Level, Down a Level strip. :smallwink:

[Gift Jeraff]

By the way, loved how unphased Roy looks. And as i said - familicide was quite a long time ago. A month or so...It was about 3 weeks ago, but I don't know much about how a human corpse would look after 3 weeks.

[silvadel]

Time to pin the blame on the order of the stick.

[jmucchiello]

I'm not seeing the Draketooth = killed in V's familicide for one reason. It would also kill Girard. And if so, who cast the wizard eye spell at the end of this 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) if not Girard? On the other hand, Girard does have the dragonmark that appears to be on all these dead people's faces. Hm..

Hi! I do not know how illusions work in DnD. Could anyone help me? I guess the stench can be easily simulated, but can Illusions be dormant and then triggered? Last this long? Include sounds? Do they fool all the senses (including touch)? etc. Again, sorry in advance for my ignorance and thanks to anyone who answers! :)

Yes, high-level D&D illusions can be affect all senses, stand up to physical interaction and be made permanent (even animated, the scarabs could be fake too). For an epic illusionist, this would be child's play.

[Pheldagriff]

when I read the title of the comic, I thought that YY would kick the bucket in this one.
upon seeing the last panel of the comic, I immediately thought about poisoned food and for the time being I'll stick with this theory
the sight of the last panel made me want to vomit

after some time an awful realisation came to me
this was the last comic of the mystery-prize-continous-comics, so - especially with Rich burdened with resolving kickstarter issues - we won't likely see the next comic for weeks if not months to come.

[Chess Tyrant]

It was about 3 weeks ago, but I don't know much about how a human corpse would look after 3 weeks.

They might be preserved by the desert, but I'd expect to see them stripped to the bone by the beetles if they were killed a month ago.

Familicide would be an amazing plot point, but logical analysis suggests something different.

[ti'esar]

Actually, as far as the timing and Familicide goes, do we know exactly how long ago Penelope died? If it was Familicide, it wouldn't have killed her, but my theory all along has been that the Draketooths themselves did it, so the timing of her death could be significant here.

[jmucchiello]

It was about 3 weeks ago, but I don't know much about how a human corpse would look after 3 weeks.
In a dry dessert environment, three weeks protected from the wind and sun, human corpse would start to mummify, becoming hard, dry, and eventually brittle (not wrapped in bandages).

EDIT: Oh, yeah, the beetles. Well, they aren't in direct sunlight so it might take longer for them to dry out. The beetles might not destroy them until after they dry out.

[t209]

Okay seriously, Rich is not going to steal monsters from some popular-today-forgotten-tomorrow video game. He's been planning this story out for a decade, and he would only throw in some reference like that, if he thought of a really funny way to parody it.

Everything in this comic is based on concepts from Dungeons & Dragons, unless its something being parodied in a quick throwaway joke (like the sandworms from Dune).


Is there any spell that can use dead body to reanimate when someone came by?

That spell would be Animate Dead, or one of its higher-level variants. It turns dead bodies into zombies or skeletons or wights (like Tsukiko was constantly doing). It's not a Skyrim spell, it's something that's been well-established in the comic. I think I can confidently promise that he is not referencing Skyrim.

I also don't think that these guys are going to turn out to be animated undead.

I know this is not from Skyrim. I just wanted to say something that is similiar to looks-dead-but-actually-woke-up-style zombie (similiar to Skyrim Draugr).

[Chess Tyrant]

Actually, as far as the timing and Familicide goes, do we know exactly how long ago Penelope died? If it was Familicide, it wouldn't have killed her, but my theory all along has been that the Draketooths themselves did it, so the timing of her death could be significant here.

The timing of her death looks all right for Familicide... Check out my theory above: it's possible Familicide hit Girard and his clan, but only a few of them, and they assumed an epic-level necromancer (read: Xykon) was trying to wipe them out. So they all faked their own deaths and hid.

Edit: to expand that, what if Girard were the only person in the clan to be hit by the spell? (Related to one of the ABD's relations.) He resists/saves against it, does some research into its purpose, and realizes that it's meant to wipe out the entire family of the target - which would mean all of the Gate's defenders. He assumes he was the primary target, and his family only survived because he saved/didn't die to it.

[Gift Jeraff]

Oh, and I'm guessing the corpse with the noticeably darkest hair was Orrin and Penelope's daughter.

[Esprit15]

I'm going to jump on the "Familicide/Illusion" bandwagon, leaning towards illusion.

[ti'esar]

Oh, and I'm guessing the corpse with the noticeably darkest hair was Orrin and Penelope's daughter.

I thought that too. Added an extra-depressing touch to things.

[Porthos]

I'm not seeing the Draketooth = killed in V's familicide for one reason. It would also kill Girard. And if so, who cast the wizard eye spell at the end of this 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) if not Girard? On the other hand, Girard does have the dragonmark that appears to be on all these dead people's faces. Hm..


Not necessarily. Girard is (almost certainly) Epic. As I said above if anyone had a chance of fending off the Big F, it would be an Epic Mage.

Maybe only enough to save himself and not his family though. Which would, I think, make him a tad cranky right now.

That's presuming this is Familicide, of course.

[Rad]

The last panel of today's strip is quite shocking, so now I'm thinking of any way for which it may not be true. Interestingly, this time there IS a solid argument for it just being an illusion, right with the "decoy" hypothesis on the pyramid. My girlfriend respectfully disagrees on the grounds that the bodies smell and they gave up the position but that wouldn't be so bad with the decoy idea in mind.
So... What do you think?
I wish I could make a poll for this.

[Mojique]

Sue the cook!

[ti'esar]

This has already come up several times in the main thread. Assuming this isn't quickly merged with that, I'm going to copy what I had to say there:

As for the illusion theory, my biggest objection: what would it gain? There are three types of people likely to be coming here - those looking for the Gate, those looking for the Draketooths, and adventurers. The last certainly wouldn't be deterred - they'd feel all the more free to loot the place undeterred by anything but passive traps. In Girard's mind, the most likely people to come looking for the Gate would be the Sapphire Guard - given the attitude he's shown towards them, he'd probably conclude their reaction to this would be to take over running the place themselves. So that's out. And if the Penelope-Orrin situation was SOP, then the most likely people to come looking for the Draketooths would be those seeking their children, and in that case they would probably search for the body to bury properly. Would the illusion, epic or not, really hold up for the duration of all that?

There is still the unexpectedly weak defenses so far to account for - if this is real, then it wasn't a decoy after all and they're unexplained. But illusion seems unlikely.

[skaddix]

the plot thickens
always darkest before the dawn

[Marnath]

The fiends took control of V for a five rounds! (30 seconds)! One to teleport to a family member, two to kill them, three to turn them into an undead, four for familicide, and five to teleport back! If this is so.

V can't teleport on his own. He also cannot use familicide which is a fantastically powerful epic spell, and as such is well beyond his capabilities. This is to say nothing of the fact that there are no scorch marks and no sign of a battle. V doesn't have the power to kill so many so quickly, and if he did it would certainly be with a spell that would have totally wrecked the entire room. He's not subtle enough for this.

[Chess Tyrant]

As an aside: it's noted that Orrin looted Penelope's coffers when he left. If all of Draketooth's relations follow the same pattern when siring children, he's probably rich as hell by this point. It's probable that a lot of money has gone into magic items and defenses, but he's paranoid enough to keep a large contingency fund around - 250K would raise him fifty people, and half a million for a hundred. Assuming anyone survived, they can probably afford to raise the entire clan.

[Hushdawg]

I think it is really an illusion.
1. Belkar (and Elan) can only smell the corpses.
2. Rotting Corpses' stench are strong for both humans and sentient creatures within that distance.
3. The Order didn't complain or comment on the rotting corpses's smell before coming in the room.

1 - Durkon commented on it too

2 & 3 - As others have commented; the decay does not appear to be fresh, it appears as though the skin is drawn taught across the bones. Once decay reaches this point and fluids have gone from the body either via consumption by insects or natural drying/mummification there is very little smell at all compared to that of a juicy corpse since nothing is actually rotting anymore.

[Boogastreehouse]

As for the illusion theory, my biggest objection: what would it gain? There are three types of people likely to be coming here - those looking for the Gate, those looking for the Draketooths, and adventurers. The last certainly wouldn't be deterred - they'd feel all the more free to loot the place undeterred by anything but passive traps. In Girard's mind, the most likely people to come looking for the Gate would be the Sapphire Guard - given the attitude he's shown towards them, he'd probably conclude their reaction to this would be to take over running the place themselves. So that's out. And if the Penelope-Orrin situation was SOP, then the most likely people to come looking for the Draketooths would be those seeking their children, and in that case they would probably search for the body to bury properly. Would the illusion, epic or not, really hold up for the duration of all that?

There is still the unexpectedly weak defenses so far to account for - if this is real, then it wasn't a decoy after all and they're unexplained. But illusion seems unlikely.


This was my thought, too. The only reason I can think of so far for creating an illusion like this would be if the illusionist in question was watching the intruders and evaluating their reactions, but that seems like a pretty paranoid thing to do....



And now for my first ever totally crazy theory:
Girard's gone totally nuts and did it himself. At the very least, one notices his body isn't present.

I'll bet that his body in interred beneath the statue.

[RMS Oceanic]

Jumping back to V's description (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html) of Familicide:


Every living creature that directly shares your bloodline is dead. Every living creature that is directly related to any of those creatures is also dead.

Now maybe it's just me, but "bloodline" to me always referred to a parent-to-child line, and I think Familicide would eliminate that entire line no matter how many generations of it were still alive. If the Black Dragon or possibly any still-living parents or (great) grandparents intermingled with the Draketooth family, that may count for Familicide's purposes.

[oppyu]

How does someone get so good at portraying unbelievably horrible scenes with stick figures? Rich's mind must be a terrifying place.

[Ormur]

The first thing I though was Girard going completely mad and killing his family by poisoning the food.

[OmegaDonut]

It occurs to me that
the IFCC might be directly responsible for the deaths of the Draketooths.

If they can give V the ability to cast Familicide, what's to stop them from giving the same power to anybody else and instructing them to cast it on one of the Draketooths? (Yes, I know they said it was a "once-a-century deal", but Redcloak recognized the soul splices on sight, so it's not as uncommon an event as they implied.) They know through Sabine about Girard and Orrin, and may have guessed that Girard's Gate was guarded only by his family.

V's use of Familicide may have been The Giant's way of showcasing its destructive power.

[Chess Tyrant]

Jumping back to V's description (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html) of Familicide:



Now maybe it's just me, but "bloodline" to me always referred to a parent-to-child line, and I think Familicide would eliminate that entire line no matter how many generations of it were still alive. If the Black Dragon or possibly any still-living parents or (great) grandparents intermingled with the Draketooth family, that may count for Familicide's purposes.

Point. It might not be just two levels of relation - the survivors could still 'possibly claim to be a part of their family.'

On the other hand, if we're into literal wording here, it's any creature 'directly' related to the ABD, or any creature 'directly' related to those. It's probable that the wording here is just a bit screwed up, since by those terms, the targets spouse would still survive - certainly something Haerta would have considered and accounted for.

[Quild]

I just thought about Penelope's death which seems totally related to that.

Sooooo... I'm lost!

[Larspcus2]

I don't think that this could have been V's familicide. The beetles are clustered around the food, presumably munching on it, but the food would be long gone if the people were killed several weeks ago. I'd go with illusion, but it's possible that another group killed them within a few dozen hours

[mrzomby]

Assuming it is real, is the look of the corpses(gray, not decayed, but withered/dryish looking) indication that the corpses are old, or that they died from some sort of cursey withering spell? If it is an illusion, girard or whoever could've included a smell component of it

[Faltenin]

(...)

Now I regret reading this comic during breakfast :smalleek:

I must say I am really really grateful for the fast update frequency!

[Grey Watcher]

Durkon still has the true seeing spell up, his eyes are still glowing white.

Illusion is doubtful.

Well, Durkon hasn't entered the room yet, so we'll see what his True Seeing shows when he does. Still, if there is one or more Epic Level Illusionist in play here, I would think fooling True Seeing as cast by a non-epic character would be fairly trivial.


Okay, I'm sure Xykon, the familicide, or some form of illusion are the more non-impossible answers, but the first thing I thought when I saw that scene was "Oh ****, The Drifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836) is back."

Awesome. Unlikely, but awesome. (Oh, man, I suddenly find myself wishing that SilverClawShift, or one of her fans on her behalf, bought that $5000 prize.)


I'm not seeing the Draketooth = killed in V's familicide for one reason. It would also kill Girard. And if so, who cast the wizard eye spell at the end of this 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) if not Girard? On the other hand, Girard does have the dragonmark that appears to be on all these dead people's faces. Hm..

The general consesus is that that scrying sensor was actually Zzdtri's, since both are green magic. That said, no actual direct evidence linking the two, so who knows?

[Porthos]

but that seems like a pretty paranoid thing to do....

Isn't "paranoid" Girard's middle name, though? :smallwink:

[LudiDrizzt]

...You know, Haerta's soul was never mentioned again. A thought.

[silvadel]

Hmm the familicide thing certainly might fit -- I mean the tat was black and all... It is a common theme of shapeshifters/shapeshifted to acquire a tattoo of their alter form. IE a dragon in human form might have a dragon magical tattoo somewhere.

It is the right timing for the decomposition....

Would definitely hit V kind of hard.

[Tom the Mime]

As an aside: it's noted that Orrin looted Penelope's coffers when he left. If all of Draketooth's relations follow the same pattern when siring children, he's probably rich as hell by this point. It's probable that a lot of money has gone into magic items and defenses, but he's paranoid enough to keep a large contingency fund around - 250K would raise him fifty people, and half a million for a hundred. Assuming anyone survived, they can probably afford to raise the entire clan.

You'd think he'd be rich as hell anyway given he's an epic level illusionist

[ti'esar]

The general consesus is that that scrying sensor was actually Zzdtri's, since both are green magic. That said, no actual direct evidence linking the two, so who knows?

It probably wasn't Girard, though - his color seems to be a purple-lavender. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html)

[Zea mays]

Sadness.


What do the tattoos on all the poor dead red-headed people mean? A clan mark? A birth-mark? Some sort of magical dragon-life-force sigil (is that kinda thing even possible in D&D)? [/wild speculation]

[Chess Tyrant]

I don't think that this could have been V's familicide. The beetles are clustered around the food, presumably munching on it, but the food would be long gone if the people were killed several weeks ago. I'd go with illusion, but it's possible that another group killed them within a few dozen hours

See my 'faking their deaths' theory above: if it is an illusion, it might have been cast soon after Familicide and not maintained recently. Hence, the appearance of the corpses hasn't altered over several weeks.


You'd think he'd be rich as hell anyway given he's an epic level illusionist

Oh, yeah, and one other thing - assuming that hoard is still there, the Order can have Durkon raise them all. Or at least Girard.

So even if they are all dead, it's not nearly as bad as it looks. :smallsmile:

[Chess Tyrant]

Edit: realized I double posted, sorry.

[zql]

Shocking!

My call: new side holding the gate.

[Boogastreehouse]

but that seems like a pretty paranoid thing to do....


Isn't "paranoid" Girard's middle name, though? :smallwink:

Yeah, that was the joke...

[Gift Jeraff]

The general consesus is that that scrying sensor was actually Zzdtri's, since both are green magic. That said, no actual direct evidence linking the two, so who knows?Nale knowing that the OOTS was in the middle of the desert last week was seen as fairly direct evidence.

[snikrept]

Hmm, all sporting the drake-tooth tattoo/birthmark thing.

Belkar stated that they didn't smell like corpses, and the others can smell it closer and consider it "funky" instead of identifying it... and these are folks who have been around a lot of corpses incl. carting Roy's around for a months.

So something is up. If it is not illusory.. are they embalmed in some manner?

[Animidest]

Oh, no... They're all dead... That was shocking. And very sad.

[Rad]

Maybe I should mantion that, yes I read the main thread; I just wanted to focus on this aspect and get some specific discussion.

That said, how easy it has been to get here is totally an argument in favor of the decoy, which would mean that those corpses are a fake.

[jere7my]

1) Take a look at the carvings on the walls, particularly in panel 4 and above Elan's dialogue bubble in the last panel. Pretty draconic, no?

2) What's Haley breaking in the first panel?

[Zubzub]

This is weird. Now we know the smell is coming from rotting corpses, but Belkar clearly said its not rotting corpse smell a few strips back, and Im sure Belkar would know how rotting corpses smell.(But a non-psychopathic illusionist may not) Plus, I dont think an epic illusionist would rely on a secret path in a canyon that can be found if you walk around long enough and a temple people out of the path can find right away.(The traps are obligatory to add some sense of "we're on the right way") Im guessing, at some point, they went into effect zone of some sort of alter reality spell and they'll be confronted by things they fear will happen until they figure it out.

[Giggling Ghast]

The "Familicide killed them all" theory is probably correct, but I'm going to float out another theory here:

We know that Tarquin and Nale both suspect each other of murdering Penelope. But what if she's not dead? What if she faked her death and actually DID make it to the Windy Canyon? What would she do once she got there?

We don't know much about the woman, but let's assume that she's mad over the abduction of her daughter and willing to do anything to get the kid back. With the set-up that Draketooth has going here, they likely wouldn't just "give" the kid up. What could she do?

There's only one solution: kill every last one of the Draketooths.

[Porthos]

Yeah, that was the joke...

Very well, carry on then. :smallsmile:

[Milknut]

We also have to take into account the bugs... if they are real, and what their effect is. It seems implied that they are the cause of death. And there are a LOT of them. So if they are real.... YIKES! :smalleek:

[Tom the Mime]

So even if they are all dead, it's not nearly as bad as it looks. :smallsmile:

I think illusion is more likely than familicide as well, but I think that anyone creating a spell like familicide would take ensure that they wouldn't be able raised easily. :smallfrown:

[Milknut]

Oh crap... well, I suspect the bugs might have something to do with it. They could just be there to feed on the bodies, but remember how well hidden this pyramid was. What if they are poisonous?

[fruityjanitor]

I'm going to have to add my vote to Epic Level Illusion as well. Partly because after looking at the final panel, it made me think of Foolamancy (essentially Illusion magic) from Erfworld. And also partly because it would be such a waste to get all that backstory on the Draketooth clan just to have them be dead before we meet them...

I could definitely be wrong though. Rich is usually pretty good at doing something different from what I guess.

Not sure if this is a persistent illusion that's been around for a long time or not. Might be a good way to get debt collectors to stop hounding you, or at least scare off adventurers who are snooping around the canyon ("What killed all these people?! A disease?! A curse?! Let's get out of here!")

Or maybe the Draketooths just set this up after they saw the OotS searching the desert for the gate. They knew they would probably find the canyon eventually and they knew that the OotS knew about them, so this could be a good way to discourage them from pursuing the gate further. Or maybe they knew Penelope and the Linear Guild were scrying the desert to find them so they killed her and then made this illusion to fool the Linear Guild.

Can't wait to see what happens next!

[Chess Tyrant]

I think illusion is more likely than familicide as well, but I think that anyone creating a spell like familicide would take ensure that they wouldn't be able raised easily. :smallfrown:

I think the point of Familicide is that there's nobody left to raise you. I highly doubt the spell does anything to prevent random adventurers from raising the victims.

[ti'esar]

1) Take a look at the carvings on the walls, particularly in panel 4 and above Elan's dialogue bubble in the last panel. Pretty draconic, no?

That's one reason I still lean towards Familicide - I don't know how draconic the carvings look on their own, but given the similarity to the "tattoos" everyone has, it definitely makes one wonder.

[Glaurung]

Are the bugs the cause of death or simply flies doing what flies do with lots of dead meat?

That said, I am perplexed about the possibility of illusion. Could be an elaborate set up to test the reaction of any intruders?

[Landis963]

:smalleek: Welp. That's going to make things difficult, regardless if that's an illusion or not.

Also, on a related not, don't read Girl Genius, then OotS in sequence today. Whiplash will be had.

[snikrept]

It looks like a refectory, which suggests food-related mass death. It's been hinted that they are a clan or a cult of some sort, maybe they drank the kool-aid so to speak because of some thing they learned about the Snarl.

But if the food is salient, why isn't the poisoned food killing the bugs that are eating it?

[lothos]

Ok, I'm rather late arriving here but I didn't see this idea previously suggested.

Yes, it could be an epic illusion. Yes, it could be the result of familicide...

What if it's really a bunch of corpses of real dead people that Girard collected (not necessarily ones he or his allies killed) and put tattoos on their faces... then just left here.

So the idea is they are REAL people, but not actually Girard or his allies..

I mean Girard "Hid his gate behind an endless series of illusions"... who says all of them are magical ? A smart (and very paranoid) person wouldn't just rely on magical illusions alone. There's always the possibility that someone more epic than you (say a Sorcerer Lich) will come along and use superb dispelling.

As Haley said recently, people might he hiding... just not with magic..

Just an idea.....

of course it could be an epic illusion, or familicide.... or something else.

As always, I continued to be impressed with the story and Rich's ability to frequently surprise me.

Cheers.

[factotum]

I don't believe this is an illusion. One critical factor about the corpses not smelling right, or them looking fairly freshly killed: we're in the middle of the desert here, and it's thus very, very dry. It is entirely possible the bodies would be naturally mummified before they managed to rot away completely.

I also question the *purpose* of such an illusion. These people all apparently died at exactly the same time and presumably for the same reason. If I was just wandering around and happened to discover this setup, I'd want to stay around and investigate what the hell happened, whereas the LAST thing Girard wants people to do is stay around once they've arrived here.

I'm definitely with the Familicide explanation myself--Tarquin and Nale both thought the other had killed Penelope, and were somewhat surprised when they disagreed on this; if it was actually Darth V who killed her indirectly, that would be a delicious twist!

[Giggling Ghast]

But if the food is salient, why isn't the poisoned food killing the bugs that are eating it?

Maybe it did. We can see that some of those insects are moving around, but we can't really tell whether or not the bugs resting on those plates are actually alive.

Presuming these people died a while ago, why is there still so much food left?

[SinsI]

My bet: it is an illusion.
I trust Belkar's nose - if he says it is not rotting corpses, then they are alive(or not there).

[Lonely Tylenol]

If this was a campaign I was running, then the statue would actually be the real Girard using a persisted Stone Body spell and a set of Concentration checks to resist moving or being seen moving (all of which he makes with no difficulty because he's an epic wizard).

Not that I've done that to my players before or anything. :smallbiggrin:

[Fish]

If what we see is real — if the Draketooth clan is dead, and if Familicide is the culprit:
The gate is now unguarded, more or less, except by whatever illusions and deceptions that were left in place...

...because the IFCC gave Vaarsuvius a spell for just that purpose...

...which Vaarsuvius only needed because the Order had to kill a young adult black dragon...

...because they were sent on a side quest to obtain starmetal...

...by Sabine, who is a succubus...

...who reports to the IFCC...

...who now own an hour of Vaarsuvius's soul...

...right next to an unguarded gate.

Just for grins, I'll also mention: we know that Belkar and Durkon are going to die soon. Anybody want to place any bets that it's Vaarsuvius who kills them?

[limpingwolf]

I couldn't help thinking about the wall carvings: are the wards or tunic inscriptions? Would they support the illusion premise?

The plot thickens!

[Porthos]

Stepping back from the shock factor, which of course is there for a reason, there does seem to be some things 'wrong' with the whole situation.

1) As noted, whatever this is, it doesn't smell like rotting corpses.

Counter-argument: The desert preserved them in such a way as not to rot, or whatever killed them did it in such a way as not to rot.

Counter to the counter-argument: Yeah, well they don't look particularly fresh now do they? And they do smell.

But maybe it's the difference between the smell of mummified(-ing) corpses and rotting ones.

2) Also, what's up with the scarabs? If this happened long enough ago that some sort of putrefaction is going on, why haven't the scarabs done their scaraby thing?

Counter-argument: Maybe they just got there? Maybe they're attracted by the smell but once they get a taste they don't like it for some reason?

Counter to the counter-argument: But, then, why are they just showing up now? And why haven't we seen scarabs outside the ziggurat, or even that room?

3) Where the heck is everyone else? Seems awfully convenient that there weren't any signs of guards or anyone at all in outside of this room.

Counter-argument: Whoever was guarding this area already bugged out (no pun intended) or they just all happened to be in the room eating or somethin'.

Counter to the counter-argument: Yeah, but everyone was there? There wasn't a single person outside of that room? Not one? And if there were, why didn't they bury anyone here?

===

I dunno. The more I think about this, the more this whole situation stinks. Pun somewhat intended, this time.

I ain't saying that this scene isn't real. But, I dunno. There seem to be big holes in what we know versus what we are seeing. And since we are dealing with an Epic Level Illusionist, I will at least allow for the possibility that there is more to this situation than meets the eyes.

[Kolero]

Has is occurred to anyone that the snarl may be responsible? we see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) that the snarl is able to kill humans without leaving wounds. So perhaps the gate is weak or even already broken. The interesting thing is that the race for the gate could still continue, as it will take some time for the various sides to find the real gate and see it to be destroyed. Meanwhile, the snarl could be waiting to strike again at any party that gets too close.

[Killer Angel]

Many peoples dead, since many days. The smell should be staggering, you don't need to be a halfling to note it from a distance, and yet the group didn't notice anything.
Well, I suppose the lack of a nose helps... :smalltongue:

BTW: nice reference to the old "level up, level down" joke. :smallbiggrin:

[Orzel]

I'm no forensics specialists but don't bugs show up after a week.

[Katana_Geldar]

There's not just flies there, but scarab beetles.

But it was Belkar complaining about the smell that convinced me.

I hope Durkon has Speak with Dead prepared.

[ti'esar]

BTW: nice reference to the old "level up, level down" joke. :smallbiggrin:

Cool - I didn't pick up on that until now. That last panel is quite the shocker.

I have to say, though - annoying as it may be that this cliffhanger won't be resolved for quite some time (since this is the end of the Sorta-Week of OOTS and Rich is going to be busy with Kickstarter stuff), it's hard to think of a better cliffhanger to leave us on. This ought to spark tons of discussion.

[Thrar]

I love this strip. From the beginning, there was that tense feeling of exploring an unknown place, without any idea what to expect. Then such a discovery - gruesome, expressive and going beyond anything that they were looking for.
I love moments like this as a player (or reader), when you're suddenly confronted with the seemingly impossible, realize that you're missing crucial background information and wonder if the whole thing may be quite different from what your questgiver or sources said.

Regarding the cause:
As has been mentioned, we're in a desert and corpses dry quickly. In a more humid environment, a body wouldn't dry up but, as time passes, become easier to eat for beetles and the like. Here, though, I'd expect the corpses to be too fresh at first and too dry later, leaving little time for the bugs to eat on them.
Note that there are very few beetles on the corpses, but many on the food. I have no idea how much these guys eat, but since there is still plenty of food left, I'd say we're talking about 3 days tops.

The Familicide explanation seems kinda far-fetched to me anyway, but in my mind it's clearly ruled out by the timeframe. As others pointed out, it's hard to find a plausible explanation for such an illusion. Even for Girard it's a non-trivial investment (time, money, possibly XP) if it's permanent and I don't think he'd make that investment without a clear goal in mind.
I suppose Girard could do this as a non-permanent illusion just for the Order. But again, what for? Wouldn't there be other, easier ways to get them to the pyramid and assume Girard's clan is dead? Probably not a big deal for him, but seems implausible still - I'd say what we're seeing is real.

It appears they all died instantly and simultaneously - it doesn't look like anyone has been rushing to help or examine anybody else, for example. It would be very hard to explain both of these aspects non-magically, imo.

My favorite spell-based explanation is Horrid Wilting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/horridWilting.htm). It insta-dries the corpses, making them unattractive to beetles, who just come in for the food as the strip shows. But a question remains: Who did it?
The LG and Tarquin want to wait for the Order to do the hard work, even if Z could cast this, it seems they have little reason to do so.
Xykon could do this, but it's not his style at all.
The IFCC could have an interest in riling up Girard and making sure he doesn't cooperate with the Order. If they used V off-panel they could probably achieve this. Surely they have ways outfitting V with spells he doesn't normally possess. And using part of V's debt off-panel to set up a plot surprise would be just beautiful storytelling imo.

[Flame of Anor]

:eek:


They might be preserved by the desert, but I'd expect to see them stripped to the bone by the beetles if they were killed a month ago.

I was going to say that the desert would mummify them, but yeah, the beetles are a problem with that. They're only eating the food, though; maybe dead humans aren't to their taste.


I'll bet that his body in interred beneath the statue.

Or maybe he is the statue--either petrified or disguised or whatever.



I'm going to say it's probably not an illusion. This is such a Wham Episode (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhamEpisode) it would be a great pity (from the narrative perspective) to make it not be real. The familicide theory is really good, though there are (as people have pointed out) some potential problems--most especially, why didn't the people who had married into the family survive, and if they did, why didn't they bury/burn the bodies?. Anyway, awesome (if sad and disastrous) comic, and I'm eagerly waiting for the next.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I should be asleep right now. *Sigh*

Anyway, my two thoughts: It's Familicide, and Girard's the statue.

[StClair]

Huh.

So. Jonestown?

[Elfinor]

Okay, I'm sure Xykon, the familicide, or some form of illusion are the more non-impossible answers, but the first thing I thought when I saw that scene was "Oh ****, The Drifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836) is back." :smalltongue: That was exactly what first popped into my head.1
I think the corpses look about a week old, maybe a bit more since things are supposed to decompose more slowly in the desert. It could be that they aren't rotting (like what Belkar said) because of the desert air?

Belkar stated just a couple of days ago that the Greysky City incident happened 'a few weeks ago' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html). This was was about the same time Familicide was cast.

My money is on who-/what- ever killed Penelope just over a week ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html), which couldn't have been Familicide. I'd imagine it's someone who's already in the story. My longshot guess is that one of the remaining members of the Order of the Scribble (Serini or Girard) has gone mad after so long guarding the gate and is responsible for the murder of Penelope and Girard's family.

[Tobrian]

Spoiler/Speculation:Draketooth.... they're related to dragons... the entire family apparently died at once...
V killed them with the epic level spell.

Sheesh. This is getting a bit ridiculous, folks.

First of all, anyone can call themselves "Draketooth". Or "Blade". Or whatever pretentious name an arrogant illusionist who has alternate personas may come up with. It doesn't proof anything, let alone dragon ancestry. Many sorcerers like to pretend they have dragon blood to appear cool.

*sigh*

Secondly... and thirdly and so on...

V's spell only killed off the descendants of ONE family line of ONE SPECIFIC black dragon. Not all black dragons and half-dragons. And certainly not each and every person with a hint of dragon blood. The spell was called "familicide", not "genocide", after all.

Why would anyone with black dragon ancestry have red or auburn hair? D&D is pretty much color-coded, especially with regard to chromatic and metallic dragons.

Black dragons aren't particularly known for illusion powers.

I'm still entertaining the idea that Girard = Haley's father. But that would make everyone even more related to everyone else, verging on soap opera. Also, we've now met Haley's father and... no... he's just a paranoid rogue. Forget what I said.

[Idhan]

Getting into crazy territory here, but isn't one of the major threats to the Order of the Scribble types each other? And isn't the only remaining unaccounted-for member of the Order of the Scribble Serini Toormuck?

Kraagor died near the end of their adventures sealing the rifts.

Lirian, Dorukan, and Soon are all accounted for in Xykon and Redcloak's quest.

Girard is the focus of the current quest.

Serini?

We know the Order of the Scribble parted on quite bad terms. Girard and Serini apparently had a good relationship. Could it be, though, that over the years, formerly the most sensible and companionable member of the Order of the Scribble became the worst of them? An epic rogue, adept with poisons and stealth: who knows what she could pull off? She does have the gate's true coordinates.

I doubt it. For one thing, having Serini be a mass-murderer takes the halfling race as a whole into Always Chaotic Evil territory from what we've seen in OotS, which I doubt is what is intended. For another, even though halflings age more slowly than humans, they're of a comparable order of magnitude, so she'd be pretty elderly by now. Still...

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'm going to note my own observations:


Symbols similar to Girard's tatoo are inscribed on the outside wall of the pyramid top (Panel 3 and close up in Panel 4). Close up shows they are dragon-like symbols versus traditional arcane runes, though arcane runes aren't out of the question.
Similar symbols are present immidiatly above the stairs on the wall prior to the "cafeteria." May simply be arcane symbols in this case as part of defenses.
The "cafeteria" also has the same runes/draconic symbols (I'm leaning runes as a defence here) but also on the walls next to the door, partially obscured by Elan are smaller versions of the symbols.
All of the corpses seem to be either partially decomposed or dehydrated (difficult to tell exactly due to art style but I'm leaning towards dehydrated. Desert and all).
Every corpse has what is presumably a tatoo in similar style to Girard's tatoo and the symbols spread throughout the pyramid
The food seems to be mostly decayed. Further support that, if this is real, it happened a while ago.
The corpses are of varying ages. Young child (bottom right with pigtails on the floor) to middle-aged (greying haired on sack in between tables on the right).
Deaths seem to be simultaneous or the very least in rapid succesion.
I count 7 corpses that do not have a tatoo. Some may be due to their position relative to the "camera" while others may be due to age (the child doesn't seem to have one).
The scarabs seem to have ignored the corpses. Little is left of the food so its unclear if the food has simply decayed (some is still left) or if the scarabs had eaten the food, at least partially.
All the dishes seem to be made of the same red material except one platter on the floor close to Roy's feet. May be inocous but when dealing with an Epic level Illusionist, nothing should be taken for granted.
Judging by the height of the pyramid and the fact "cafeteria" has windows, the room gets plenty of air flow and thus any pungent smell will easily waft outwards.


Thats all I can see, whether any of this is relevant is to be seen. My personal theory
The room is a triggered illusion like with the false gate location. But instead of being programmed with a specific message/image/whatever, its uses epic magic vagueness to produce an open ended effect. Something to the effect of "most effective illusion to make adventurers go away".

[weeping eagle]

I also question the *purpose* of such an illusion.Maybe there's a fake gate in the basement with some very nasty traps on it. Give anyone looking for it just enough difficulty and drama to have them believe they're on the right track, then... *slashing motion across throat*

[Porthos]

Huh.

So. Jonestown?

I do have a theory that is crawling around in the back of my head that I want to have germinate a bit more, but it is related a bit to this. If we have a Jonestown situation, that would explain the lack of guards, or anyone else in the area. Anyone who wasn't apart of the suicide/murder has gone downstairs and left everyone else upstairs to the elements.

Now what could trigger it? Well, and I realize I have to flesh this out a bit more, we do know one thing. Each person who controlled a gate has a system that alerts them to the fact that another Gate has been destroyed.

Thus Girard (or whomever his decedents are that are protecting things) knows that three Gates have now been destroyed, and two within months/weeks of each other.

We also know that Girard is something on the paranoid side.

Just how would Girard (or decedents) react to two Gates going Kersplooie right after each other?

Hmmm.

*pauses*

Saaaaaay. Some people are thinking that this all happened within the last couple of weeks or so.

Well what else happened a week or two ago or so?

That's right. The spell triggering the alarm that the so called other Gate has been visited. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html)

The dates do seem to match up quite well.

Hmmmm.

Gonna think about this. But I'm not sure I'm gonna like where my thoughts go.....

[ThePhantasm]

I trust Belkar's nose. He says the smell is NOT rotting corpses, and he would know what a rotten corpse smelt like if anything. That suggests to me that something else is going on here...

[BobVosh]

I refuse to believe Belkar couldn't recognize rotting corpse, so this is faked somehow.

I same somehow, but it is a master illusionist.

[Red XIV]

...You know, Haerta's soul was never mentioned again. A thought.
The Fiends said they'd need to recover her soul, but they also said she can't actually do anything while not spliced to somebody living.

[Narren]

I didn't read the main thread, so forgive me if this has been answered, but WHY exactly would Girard make this particular illusion? What purpose does a room full of corpses serve?

And Belkar smelling them may not mean much. I'm not up to date on epic illusions, but I imagine simulating smell would not be too hard. If I remember correctly, I think non-epic illusions can do that.

[Echonian]

I would have to say that it probably isn't an illusion.

An illusion would serve no purpose here, objectively speaking. Less so an epic level spell that would avoid detection by Durkon. When you consider the traps at the entrance (that were weak enough for a non-epic party to get past relatively easily), it seems unlikely that there are epic illusions in place.

All of this points to it simply being at least PART of the Draketooth Clan, which would explain the lack of epic illusion spells here. Allowing an adventuring group that isn't even epic level to make it to an epic illusion in the first place seems completely pointless when you could simply hide any knowledge of the illusion.

Also, to anybody coming there without knowledge of the Draketooth Clan, this being an illusion would also be a bit unnecessary.

My only real hope is that it IS real, but that it did not constitute the majority of the Draketooth Clan's ability to defend the gate (such as if Girard is still alive). It also seems unlikely that the gate is within this structure, as the gate would almost certainly have better defenses than the traps bypassed so far.

The deaths are likely due to some kind of food poison, possibly an inside job. I highly doubt it was from familicide (as some have speculated), because familicide only wiped out 1/4 of the remaining black dragons. Even then, only within a couple of generations. Girard and his family are almost certainly human, and even if they have some dragon blood (which has no evidence), it is likely separated by many MANY generations.

[2xMachina]

I vote for Scarab of Death infestation!

[RMS Oceanic]

I refuse to believe Belkar couldn't recognize rotting corpse, so this is faked somehow.

I same somehow, but it is a master illusionist.

Rotting != Mummified. Remember we had a glimpse of Roy's rotting corpse before it was a skeleton, and it didn't look like these.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

One thought I had was "Why didn't Belkar identify the smell as Dead humans?" As opposed to "Weird Smelling" humans.

Belkar has killed more than a few people in his day, so I'm sure he is familiar with the smell of death. He has also identified Roy by smell alone, and it has been shown several times his sense of smell is great.

And of course the title of the strip is a clue: Time is an Illusion, Lunchtime Doubly So. I think that was the Giant's way of saying don't believe your eyes. Or nose. Or any other sense. You have to think your way through.

[turkishproverb]

...


*shudder*

[Willis888]

Well that's weird.

-The high heat and low humidity of a desert would quickly dry anything left in a well ventilated room. Veggies would turn brown and bodies would become odorless jerky.
-The food looks somewhat fresh, like it was just served within the last 24 hours.
-The bodies seem dry, like they've been there at least 2 weeks.

Either it's an illusion, or magic was used that selectively dessicated animal tissue but not plant tissue. If it's not an illusion, it had to have happened recently for there to be an odor.

How did the guy in purple on the bottom right table manage to get a celery stick on top of his arm?

I'm guessing no showers in the desert + hasty illusion when the traps were sprung.


If what we see is real — if the Draketooth clan is dead, and if Familicide is the culprit:
The gate is now unguarded, more or less, except by whatever illusions and deceptions that were left in place...

...because the IFCC gave Vaarsuvius a spell for just that purpose...

...which Vaarsuvius only needed because the Order had to kill a young adult black dragon...

...because they were sent on a side quest to obtain starmetal...

...by Sabine, who is a succubus...

...who reports to the IFCC...

...who now own an hour of Vaarsuvius's soul...

...right next to an unguarded gate.

Just for grins, I'll also mention: we know that Belkar and Durkon are going to die soon. Anybody want to place any bets that it's Vaarsuvius who kills them?

No bet :smallbiggrin:

[Quild]

Has is occurred to anyone that the snarl may be responsible? we see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) that the snarl is able to kill humans without leaving wounds. So perhaps the gate is weak or even already broken. The interesting thing is that the race for the gate could still continue, as it will take some time for the various sides to find the real gate and see it to be destroyed. Meanwhile, the snarl could be waiting to strike again at any party that gets too close.

This is a very interessant theory, but...

Either the rift is still weakened, and the party is in deep trouble.
Either one of Girard's kin managed to reinforce the seal on the rift (presumably before dying himself), but it would seem improbable considering how the others died suddenly.

[sparkyinbozo]

Edit: that's what I get for not reading the forum first...I thought I was going to be early on the familicide train.

[RMS Oceanic]

-The food looks somewhat fresh, like it was just served within the last 24 hours.

Does it? It looked a sickly green to me.

[Seonor]

Okay, I'm sure Xykon, the familicide, or some form of illusion are the more non-impossible answers, but the first thing I thought when I saw that scene was "Oh ****, The Drifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836) is back."

I have to agree with this. A building looking a bit like a Ziggurat? Bugs bigger than they should be? Dead people?

[tcrudisi]

My immediate reaction upon reading this is that they stumbled upon an illusion. I read the first page and a half, so I know others think the same thing as well. I never considered Familicide, but that just doesn't feel like it's the correct answer.

I also have a reason for thinking illusion: this isn't the real Draketooth clan. If it was, the Linear Guild would already be there. Remember their plan to let the OotS clear out everything before the LG swoops in at the last minute to get there first? Yeah, that didn't happen. Therefore this is, in my mind, a clear illusion.

I realize I could be wrong but I stand by my theory! :smallbiggrin:

[Red XIV]

Does it? It looked a sickly green to me.
That might be what the food was like to begin with. More to the point, we see a bunch of the beetles flocking to the food. Yet the food's still there. That would imply that the beetles only arrived recently, which you wouldn't expect to be the case if everybody died weeks ago.

[Porthos]

re: The whole Familicide discussion.

I don't think Familicide matches up though, time wise. I mean, maybe it does, but that food still being there presents a bit of a problem. It seems to me if we are looking for a Triggering Event, the spell going off in the desert seems more likely. It even allows for a few days of panic to set in amongst leadership before someone decides that something horrible needs to be done.

But I've been thinking some more of the Jonestown Theory and I've run into a major roadblock. It's one thing to set a spell trap to take out what you believe to be "fascist lackeys". It's even one thing not to care all that much about innocent bystanders getting caught in the explosion.

It's a whole 'nother level to murder all your kinsfolk in cold blood. A WAY 'nother level. A way way WAY 'nother level.

So. Major roadblock there. And a damn near insurmountable one.

Now what could lift the roadblocks is, mostly, if Girard isn't in the picture anymore and someone who is even more paranoid is in charge. Someone paranoid enough to silence people who might know too much, permanently. That might take care of the biggest objection, but it's still pretty flimsy.

So I think I'll step back a tiny bit from a Jonestown analogue. But, out of all the theories I've heard, some variation of that, as well as some variation of an Epic Illusion are the ones that seem most plausible to me.

Both have their problems, of course. But they might work.

[Conor77]

I personally am holding out for the Illusion idea or that the Snarl killed them all after being released for some reason. My thoughts on the matter, both for others to reference and to support my own views, are thusly:

1. It cannot have been Familicide. This point is important because the rest of my points would support that theory if not for this. I don't know if anyone has said this already, but remember the Arcane Eye/Scrying Eye/Magic Eye Thingy that appeared in the desert to observe the party after they triggered Girard's first trap? Only Scruffy saw it, and he ran away. But, this happened after the party go back together, and after V cast his super spell. The eye may have been an auto-trigger, but I doubt this. This means that someone who knew of the decoy, probably Girard or associates, knew that it had been activated. This further means that they were not dead when the decoy was activated, which was after V's spell, meaning at least one person was left alive, even if the rest were killed, etc. etc.

EDIT: arcane eye thing at the bottom: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html

2. They died recently. The desert will dessicate them quickly, and the bugs would have eaten the food a short time after they died. Since the scarabs have seemingly just discovered the food and not eaten it all already, their death has to be recent.

3. Their death was sudden. Obviously, given their state of being.

4. Their death did not "enter" through the main entrance, if it did at all. Obvious again, due to the traps being unsprung upon entry.

5. Their death was magical. This may be going a bit far, but they all look like sorcerers with Girard's mark, and even if they aren't some of them would have to be. And they all died. Suddenly, with no time to stand up from their tables or offer any resistance? It must be magic. Nothing else has the raw power.

6. they smelled funny to Belkar. More going out on limbs here, but I am fairly sure that Belkar would know the normal smell of dead flesh even in a desert. This further underlines the magical connection for leaving behind a funny smell.

7. It cannot have been poison. Reading up on more theories, this was a sort of popular one. However, all the people in that room died, and they were in various states of meal. The one man died crossing the room, and I find it unlikely that he happened to die at the exact same time as the rest if poison was involved

Okay, so after all those things (I may add more if I think of them) I have three theories:

Theory 1:
The Snarl killed them. This fits all my points. It wasn't familicide, it could have been released recently for all we know, it would have been sudden if it finally got an outlet, it didn't need to enter, it would certainly be considered magical, it may leave a strange scent upon the death of its victims for all we know, and it isn't poison.

Theory 2:
It is an illusion. In this case, all of the above can be thrown out a window. It doesn't matter what they are like, because everything there is just covering up the fact that everyone is alive and well. They smell funny because the smell part of the illusion doesn't work properly or Girard doesn't know how to duplicate it properly. The scarabs and food are an illusion, so the one never depletes the other. Thinking more on this theory, I like it better and better, because Girard is of course an Epic Sorcerer who specializes in illusion and is extremely paranoid. The room may be a huge booby trap like the ones he has already set up, or it may be an alert for him and associates to stage a defense.

theory 3:
Betrayal. If you'll give me a little leeway for metagaming here,I think Rich would find this an ironic twist to have to someone who was always paranoid of those not his family to be killed by his family. In this case, his family member would have used some kind of a spell to kill them, such as horrid wilting, and would already have been inside the castle, so no need for the traps to be sprung.

Just my huge number of cents that is in no way 2. But might be worth less than 2. I could be rolling a 1 on my Intuition check here. Please, criticize away and counter my arguments and do all those kinds of things to it. I welcome them.

EDIT: I just thought of poison gas being used in conjunction with the betrayal, so disregard my 7th point, because gaseous poisons may exist and may have been used. However, this would have to have been delivered in some way, which I still think best befits a betrayal by a family member

[Conor77]

Sorry. Forum shenanigan clone. Please disregard.

[psijac]

when I read the title of the comic, I thought that YY would kick the bucket in this one.
upon seeing the last panel of the comic, I immediately thought about poisoned food and for the time being I'll stick with this theory
the sight of the last panel made me want to vomit

after some time an awful realisation came to me
this was the last comic of the mystery-prize-continous-comics, so - especially with Rich burdened with resolving kickstarter issues - we won't likely see the next comic for weeks if not months to come.

An excellent cliff hanger/WTH moment.

Unless its an illusion. It doesn't matter Who/whatever killed these people OOTS will have to defend the gate by themselves against Linear and Team Evil. Unlike Azure city where they had an entire army

Everyone was wondering how The Giant would write an encounter around an illusions without everything being a red herring. The answer is to throw that hat out and turn it into the last act of the movie Serenity

[Flame of Anor]

I personally am holding out for the Illusion idea or that the Snarl killed them all after being released for some reason. My thoughts on the matter, both for others to reference and to support my own views, are thusly:

1. It cannot have been Familicide. This point is important because the rest of my points would support that theory if not for this. I don't know if anyone has said this already, but remember the Arcane Eye/Scrying Eye/Magic Eye Thingy that appeared in the desert to observe the party after they triggered Girard's first trap? Only Scruffy saw it, and he ran away. But, this happened after the party go back together, and after V cast his super spell. The eye may have been an auto-trigger, but I doubt this. This means that someone who knew of the decoy, probably Girard or associates, knew that it had been activated. This further means that they were not dead when the decoy was activated, which was after V's spell, meaning at least one person was left alive, even if the rest were killed, etc. etc.

Dude, that was Zz'dtri, almost certainly. Girard's magic is purple.


theory 3: Betrayal. If you'll give me a little leeway for metagaming here,I think Rich would find this an ironic twist to have to someone who was always paranoid of those not his family to be killed by his family. In this case, his family member would have used some kind of a spell to kill them, such as horrid wilting, and would already have been inside the castle, so no need for the traps to be sprung.

It seems kind of a stretch to think that people raised by a probably good-aligned adventurer-hero would brutally murder their entire family, including children, and then, as though that wasn't enough, leave them to rot.


Sorry. Forum shenanigan clone. Please disregard.

You know you can just delete that post? The threads here would be a lot cleaner if people would delete their double posts.

[ArtosSwiftblade]

Options as I see them.

1. Natural disaster/accident; utterly unrelated to main plot so far, to shock us all. Could have been some time ago, based on the bodies, and the fact you don't decompose much in a desert; too hot. And that many bodies would take a while for the scarabs to eat.

2. Some other villain we don't know about yet. Another of the supposed 9 sides?

3. Xykon got there first; but no zombification seems odd.

4. It's an illusion; we haven't seen many impressive ones so far; now that could be because they're all dead, or it could be Girard/descendents of Girard are more skilled than the Order are giving them credit for.

I can't see it being the Snarl; if it was able to act that way surely there'd be more awareness of it/sign of it.

[Conor77]

Dude, that was Zz'dtri, almost certainly. Girard's magic is purple.



It seems kind of a stretch to think that people raised by a probably good-aligned adventurer-hero would brutally murder their entire family, including children, and then, as though that wasn't enough, leave them to rot.



You know you can just delete that post? The threads here would be a lot cleaner if people would delete their double posts.

Ah, the color-coded magic. Alright, that's true, but the food/scarab time period still seems wrong. Also, we have no idea of the family circumstances that would have led to a betrayal, including some kind of paranoid schizophrenia induced breakdown. And thanks for the tip. I had no idea.:smallredface:

[Flame of Anor]

I can't see it being the Snarl; if it was able to act that way surely there'd be more awareness of it/sign of it.

Plus, they're not right next to the gate.

Or are they?!?

(No, they're not)

[Conor77]

Options as I see them.

1. Natural disaster/accident; utterly unrelated to main plot so far, to shock us all. Could have been some time ago, based on the bodies, and the fact you don't decompose much in a desert; too hot. And that many bodies would take a while for the scarabs to eat.

I can't see it being the Snarl; if it was able to act that way surely there'd be more awareness of it/sign of it.

The other theories seem fine, but I wasn't talking about the bodies. The food is what I was referring to them eating. They hadn't even touched any of the bodies, so either they wouldn't eat them or would eat them after the more viable food, which, as I mentioned, was still there. Also, given what Blackwing saw when he tried to throw Xykon's phylactery into the Azure City rift, it is not entirely implausible that the Snarl's nature has somehow shifted or something. Just saying, it could be different. Redcloak may not have gotten around to reanimating the bodies yet, if that's what happened.

EDIT: "That's what happened" referring to Xykon and co. arriving, not the Snarl killing everybody. A little clarification.

[i6uuaq]

My bid to win an internet.


To those who say that the timing is wrong for familicide, besides the fact that dry air can mummify bodies effectively, and this has been observed in real life, I offer this second thought:

Familicide was cast around lunchtime (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html).



Do I win?

[Burner28]

I suppose so.

[B. Dandelion]

Belkar stated just a couple of days ago that the Greysky City incident happened 'a few weeks ago' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html). This was was about the same time Familicide was cast.

Keep in mind that he's talking about kicking Bozzok's butt, which doesn't align with their day of departure from Greysky, the same day Vaarsuvius was spliced and cast Familicide. They kicked his butt and wound up staying with the Guild afterwords. (How long I'm not sure, but Kazumi later tells Vaarsuvius "She called Durkon with a Sending spell, like, days ago." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html))


The familicide theory is really good, though there are (as people have pointed out) some potential problems--most especially, why didn't the people who had married into the family survive,

Marry into the family, and have a kid with the family, and you've signed your own death warrant via Familicide, because via that child you are "directly related to someone directly related."

If Orrin's treatment of Penelope is any indication, they didn't likely have any non-relatives around anyway.

[Conor77]

My bid to win an internet.


To those who say that the timing is wrong for familicide, besides the fact that dry air can mummify bodies effectively, and this has been observed in real life, I offer this second thought:

Familicide was cast around lunchtime (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html).



Do I win?

That, my friend, Is a VERY good bid to win an internet. I do agree that the bodies can totally be mummified for a long time. My main reference was the food and the scarabs, but honestly I think it might have been a detail that wasn't actually that important. :smallfrown:

[RMS Oceanic]

My bid to win an internet.


To those who say that the timing is wrong for familicide, besides the fact that dry air can mummify bodies effectively, and this has been observed in real life, I offer this second thought:

Familicide was cast around lunchtime (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html).



Do I win?

Ooh, that's a subtle hint indeed. Well done.

[Cynric]

My first instinct was Girard. he's old, mad and paranoid. Can't trust anyone anymore, not even his own family. They have to go, for the good of the universe!

Although, after reading this forum, either illusion or the "V thing" seem perhaps more probable.

[Katana_Geldar]

Durkon also can smell the dead bodies, it can't be an illusion.

[ti'esar]

My bid to win an internet.


To those who say that the timing is wrong for familicide, besides the fact that dry air can mummify bodies effectively, and this has been observed in real life, I offer this second thought:

Familicide was cast around lunchtime (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html).



Do I win?

Unholy crap. That's hardly conclusive, but it's very worrying. We know the Elven Lands are on the Western Continent, so it's not like we've got a significant time differential.

I do think we can rule out mass suicide. It's just too odd a way to do it, I think. Girard's still an option - I always took him as CN more then CG, and it's possible that something - finding that there's visitors on the way - finally sent him completely over the edge. But I consider it a bit unlikely.

[Karuth]

So much to see, so little do we really know.

How hot/dry is it to estimate decay?
Do the beetles eat flesh?
What are this scribbly things all over the walls and the faces?

Here is one thing I'd like to add. Just because Girard is a well known illusionist, it does not mean he has to rely solely on illusions for deception.
Transmutation allows some trickery as well. And there are also mundane tricks and stuff (optical illusions and such).
Maybe Girard has specialized in diversion/trickery/psychology in a more general meaning? Such as using all means available be it magical or mundane to create his "illusions".

If the massacre is indeed a deception it could very well not be an illusion.
I could see the corpses as being "Stone to Fleshed" statues, with a permanent "Gentle Repose" on them (all the scribbly lines could be such a spell). That would make them very real even for True seeing.

The bugs could be tiny constructs, just waiting for people to make a mistake.

[Omergideon]

And now we find out what smells worse than normal humans.

Option 1: Illusion. Put there to convince people to get out as quickly as possible, or lull them into a false sense of security.

Option 2: V's familicide. I didn't think of it until I read it in the forums, but it could be possible. Seems like a stretch though.

Option 3: Team Evil got there first (we don't know how much time passed between strips) and found a way to do that. Seems unlikely.

So I'm thinking illusion.

OhMy. Now having seen the strip I think these are the 3 most likely theories based on who/what we know in the comic. However there are of course always a lot of other possibilities to explain what has happened. Now Familicide is the least likely I would suggest, as there are many types of dragon/only 1/4 of black ones died etc. The placement of Team Evil's departure suggest they could have arrived/be about to arrive so this one is a stronger guess. But considering Roy's in universe speculation on the weakness of the protections I lean towards this being another illusion. Probably.


No I won't speculate on how recently the deaths occurred. Considering the kind of dehydration etc people can recieve in a desert environment their appearance is not entirely unexpected. In extremely hot temperatures decomposition can be much more rapid. In dry environments it slows down considerably as bacteria cannot breed as fast. Bugs could have arrived immeadiately, or they could have been scratching around for weeks and driven off by illusions time after time. For all we know they are the source of the apparent death themselves. And anything that can kill a huge group almost instantly, without any sign of struggles is unknown to me.

But overall it leads to an incredible cliffhanger moment. It also adds a small amount of value back to the strip where Belkar found the smell. It means it provided some foreshadowing of this moment, even if we cannot tell how much. A good use of prior materials.

So onto my thoughts.

The Good:
1) The art. From the excellent detailing and scope of the Temple and the runes on the walls, to the horrifying but well drawn image of the dead. What is most impressive abot that image is how every corpse appears to be in a different position. This was not a copy paste job. It was all well drawn, including the rare shots of the backs of many order members. They are not too common so it is nice to see them done here. Finally the starkness and barrenness of most of the rooms adds to the air and atmosphere of this place as a desert tomb-like temple. All excellent work.
2) OF course second must come the final moment. There have been some brilliant cliffhangers in the past and this one is no exception to the rule. none of us is quite sure what is going on and there are many possibilities. And the moment is not just a good cliffhanger like some strips (e.g. 825). Every piece of dialogue almost, every scene and panel builds to it. Comments from Durkon about smell, Roy about lack of traps, the emptiness of the place, the whispers. They all slowly build tension to the final moment. Truly brilliant structuring.
3) As well as this though we do get some beautifully in character jokes and references, such as the up/down a level callback. And Belkar was on top form with his one liners too. Also Elan was funny. It does not detract from the building tension, but keeps it from being overwhelming. Plus the jokes are based on character traits, not situation, which is always my favourite type. All great writing.
4) And finally I must comment on how this adds to the overall story arc. This strip has a great moment as is, but the sheer volume of possible stories coming from this, the ways it could go, and the amount of speculation now is testament to the craft here. A great story needs to have more than one plausible way it could go. If we only have one then it becomes predictable. Now we do not have enough potential plots for total confusion, but we have plenty of places to go from here. Fantastic work.

The Bad:
1) I have only one complaint, and it is more a personal preference than objective. I feel like we have glossed over the situations with YukYuk so far. I expect them to be addressed fairly soon. And the fact Haley is on trap duty seems to imply Roy did have "a talk" about the Kobold. But there is not direct addressing of the issue thus far. I think a throwaway line would have added a lot to this element that formed the core of the last strip. But this is more my preference and does little to detract from the power of this strip. Still a minor issue is an issue all the same.

So as you can probably guess I really thought this was a great strip. I mean it is incredible work. The atmosphere, the character humour, the cliffhanger, the pacing and the artwork all come together in that rare brilliance that makes a great story. **** for my view and certainly worth the reading. I am now desperate to see what happens next and while of course I want my Kickstarter swag I hope it doesn't mean no work on OoTS comics. I will go insane without them.

[Onyavar]

....main thread; I just wanted to focus on this aspect and get some specific discussion.

Heh, I'm glad about that, this way I don't even need to sift through the many discussions in the main thread and can go directly to the point that immediately sprung to my mind: It's an illusion.


One thought I had was "Why didn't Belkar identify the smell as Dead humans?"
Exactly. He specifically EXCLUDED rotting corpses as the cause of the smell, see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0838.html). So EITHER these dead humans don't smell like dead humans (maybe because of the beetles) OR they aren't dead.

My theory at the moment is that all the "dead" Draketooths are in fact alive, and every single one of them is an illusionist raised by the paranoid ideas of Girard (maybe something like the ideas of Ian times twenty).

As for the illusion theory, my biggest objection: what would it gain?
In case of my theory, they don't trust strangers, and screw around with the order - especially if they have been observing the order in 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

[RMS Oceanic]

Also, I don't have Don't Split The Party handy to confirm this, but didn't Rich imply that V's soul splice would have consequences beyond what was already apparent? I'd say inadvertently stripping away the defences around Girard's gate would be pretty consequential.

[Conor77]

What are this scribbly things all over the walls and the faces?

I'm pretty sure those are related to Girard Draketooth's symbol, meaning that this is his base and those are his family members. Who knows though, they could be part of some incantation woven by him to totally mess up everyone who visits.

[Beelzebub1111]

Pretty obvious that familicide killed them.

All at once, recently (Since the beetles didn't strip them to their bones yet), and without any signs of physical damage.

[Toxinthegreat]

One thought I had was "Why didn't Belkar identify the smell as Dead humans?" As opposed to "Weird Smelling" humans.

Belkar has killed more than a few people in his day, so I'm sure he is familiar with the smell of death. He has also identified Roy by smell alone, and it has been shown several times his sense of smell is great.

And of course the title of the strip is a clue: Time is an Illusion, Lunchtime Doubly So. I think that was the Giant's way of saying don't believe your eyes. Or nose. Or any other sense. You have to think your way through.

But has he stayed near plenty of rotting human corpses that have been in the desert for quite a while? You could argue Roy's corpse back in War and Xp's but that was one and Not in a stinking hot desert.

My opinion? It's merely what it seems. Not an Illusion. The whole corpse thing would deter many adventurers. BUT! How were those corpses made? Xykon? The linear guild? We don't know. Only time will tell us what Made the corpses. (Taking bets on Xykon creating them)

EDIT: Looking back, Belkar DID exclude Rotting corpses from the list. But then again, he tracks like he understands prophecies. Crapily

[B. Dandelion]

Also, I don't have Don't Split The Party handy to confirm this, but didn't Rich imply that V's soul splice would have consequences beyond what was already apparent? I'd say inadvertently stripping away the defences around Girard's gate would be pretty consequential.

"Vaarsuvius is essentially destroyed by his/her grab for power, and let me tell you, he/she doesn't even know all of the consequences that his/her actions while spliced had."

[RMS Oceanic]

"Vaarsuvius is essentially destroyed by his/her grab for power, and let me tell you, he/she doesn't even know all of the consequences that his/her actions while spliced had."

Ah, thanks for that. So that's more cirumstantial evidence in favour of Familicide.

[Conor77]

Pretty obvious that familicide killed them.

All at once, recently (Since the beetles didn't strip them to their bones yet), and without any signs of physical damage.

Familicide was cast a long while ago (a few weeks). But as someone said, the beetles may only have arrived recently or been driven off by the illusion covering the place up or some other existing spell for the comfort of the inhabitants.

[The Pilgrim]

A wizard did it.

[The Pilgrim]

Maybe it's just an illusion with the purpose of showing the readers how an epic-level illusionist Girard is.

[ti'esar]

But has he stayed near plenty of rotting human corpses that have been in the desert for quite a while? You could argue Roy's corpse back in War and Xp's but that was one and Not in a stinking hot desert.

My opinion? It's merely what it seems. Not an Illusion. The whole corpse thing would deter many adventurers. BUT! How were those corpses made? Xykon? The linear guild? We don't know. Only time will tell us what Made the corpses. (Taking bets on Xykon creating them)

It's almost certainly not the Linear Guild. Leaving aside how unlikely it is they could slaughter the whole clan - even if we assume Girard wasn't there/was already dead of old age - Tarquin is planning on pulling a Belloq. He wouldn't show up before the Order and wipe out the defenders.

As for Xykon, it's not his MO. Forget the fact that he hasn't raised them as undead, although that's pretty convincing on its own: there's no signs of a struggle, no marks on the bodies. Xykon is anything but subtle, and anyone who did this in person would have had to be subtle.

[Corneel]

Some seem to say there are only scarabs on the food.

But as far as I can see, at least some scarabs are on some of the corpses.
- upper left, corpse with light blue shirt & grey blue pants: scarab on face.
- to the right of this corpse, corpse slumped over table, dressed in grey blue: scarab on sleeve.
- to the right of this corpse and somewhat lower, corpse lying in front of table, hair tinged with white and dressed in armour: scarab just below face.
- to the right of this corpse again, corpse sitting at table, dressed in purple: scarab on face.
- lower left corner, corpse with ponytail and dressed in purple: two scarabs in the hair.

Another thing, maybe the scarabs just eat the food and use the bodies as egg repositories? So the eating of the corpses is happening as we look, but from the inside out? Or maybe the beetles themselves entered the corpses through various orifices?

[pcgneurotic]

Wow, that was a kicker!

I'm going with 'It's real, they really are dead', because that would be waaaay more interesting than just trickery or deceit. And let's face it, how often have we nailed down everything for the next six weeks, only for Rich to go off in a totalty unexpected direction the very next day?

[Toxinthegreat]

It's almost certainly not the Linear Guild. Leaving aside how unlikely it is they could slaughter the whole clan - even if we assume Girard wasn't there/was already dead of old age - Tarquin is planning on pulling a Belloq. He wouldn't show up before the Order and wipe out the defenders.

As for Xykon, it's not his MO. Forget the fact that he hasn't raised them as undead, although that's pretty convincing on its own: there's no signs of a struggle, no marks on the bodies. Xykon is anything but subtle, and anyone who did this in person would have had to be subtle.

You may just be right. The whole clan isn't just low level mooks. There is at least one Spellcaster there, some form of Fighter and, we can assume, many rogues/rangers. I doubt there *ALL* Directly related to any draketooth though. Plus, the food appears to have spoiled, meaning they've been dead for a few days at least.

Also, if its an Illusion, its a Really good one. I doubt it being an Illusion though.

[Secris]

I'm going to put my money down on a huge longshot; That it is an epic illusion, but that it's also the real Draketooth clan. The illusion is the smell, the beetles and the appearance of rotting flesh and food. When the family was alerted to the presence of the OoTs, they simply assumed their rehearsed positions. I suppose the smell may be a separate illusion that is always on, and the death, et al is a second one that is used when needed. Now the OoTS is walking into the biggest trap of all, but nothing that be disarmed so easily.


If it's not that, my second bet goes to familicide. I just have trouble believing the whole thing is some big illusion and nothing more, nor do I believe any introduced characters could and would kill so many people so rapidly without leaving any signs of the battle. So I guess my third place bet goes to new characters, but that seems like a bigger stretch than my above theory.

[Conor77]

Some seem to say there are only scarabs on the food.

-locations snip-

I personally meant that they were only eating the food, though in retrospect I seem to have been mistaken. Its just that you can't see any signs of the people being eaten, which as you rightly point out, may not even be present if they were being eaten from the inside out.

[Stadge]

It occurs to me that
the IFCC might be directly responsible for the deaths of the Draketooths.

If they can give V the ability to cast Familicide, what's to stop them from giving the same power to anybody else and instructing them to cast it on one of the Draketooths? (Yes, I know they said it was a "once-a-century deal", but Redcloak recognized the soul splices on sight, so it's not as uncommon an event as they implied.) They know through Sabine about Girard and Orrin, and may have guessed that Girard's Gate was guarded only by his family.

V's use of Familicide may have been The Giant's way of showcasing its destructive power.

I could buy this, especially as it would also probably lead to V having to come clean to the rest of the Order, whcih would be quite interesting, as V would be able to guess what happened. Though again, that would be the case if it was our favourite elf wizard's familicide that did this.


My bid to win an internet.


To those who say that the timing is wrong for familicide, besides the fact that dry air can mummify bodies effectively, and this has been observed in real life, I offer this second thought:

Familicide was cast around lunchtime (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html).



Do I win?

That is good timing. Well noted!

Part of me is still thinking it might be an illusion, despite the fact that Familicide would make for much more dramatic tension. This is because, you know, illusionist-family and then a small point; it could be a dust effect kind of thing, but does anyone else think the food looks a bit faint and not-completely solid looking?

[Blackdrop]

Familicide also explains what happened to Penelope, who was a blood-relative to a member of the Draketooth clan.

[Susil]

Wow.

This is the first time in quite a while this comic has shocked me. Genuine tension, building to shock, and the sort of cliffhanger that has kept me reading for as long as I have!


Now... if I may weigh in on the whole familicide 'debate'... I'm not convinced everything is as it seems, but if we do have a whole dead clan:

I don't think that this was V's spell. The timing is close, but it seems that even if Girard himself was as much as half-dragon, there still would be too many 'degrees of separation' for the spell to have hit everybody.

However - we've seen familicide in action. If there's any way that a whole room of people related to one another can be killed instantly (as must have been if this is a real scene) then its the familicide spell. Now, correct me if I'm wrong - but one of the material components of the spell is a physical member of the family you wish to target, correct? In the case of Mamma Dragon, V animated the head. So... if you wanted to take down the Draketooth clan with Familicide, you'd need one of them first. What if Penelope did actually find her daughter, inadvertantly providing the means for somebody to target all the rest of them?


Meh, not convinced now I've typed it. My money's still on trickery.

[Leolo]

Familicide was cast a long while ago (a few weeks). But as someone said, the beetles may only have arrived recently or been driven off by the illusion covering the place up or some other existing spell for the comfort of the inhabitants.

It is also possible that only some beetles have arrived a few weeks ago, and have just getting more over the last weeks. We are still in windy canyon, it seems unlikely that an entire swarm of beetles flies to this place. There may be only a few at the beginning, eating only some of the food - and over the last weeks they become more and more.

Plus there is the point that it makes no good story to tell us (in a few strips): "oh, all you have seen where illusions!"

More so because the order would have no means to counter those epic illusions and would likely be killed by an epic level illusionist if he tries it. It would be like: "rocks fall, everyone dies" and i don't think that this will happen.

[Conor77]

So, someone else's Familicide? That was a theory I had never even considered! In fact, considering what we know, that makes perfect sense. You sir, are a fine gentleman!

[Eldray]

If Familicide indeed killed them all, then I guess Durkon would probably try to resurrect Girard or Orrin, and that would be the perfect moment to introduce the Linear Guild or Team Evil interrupting that.

[Eldray]

So, someone else's Familicide? That was a theory I had never even considered! In fact, considering what we know, that makes perfect sense. You sir, are a fine gentleman!


Familicide is an unique epic spell, so it seems unlikely someone other than Haerta can cast it; so, this would mean the IFCC did this somehow, but that doesn't seem to fit their passive demeanor.

[Murray]

... and I was wondering where Xykon was going to find his next batch of disposable minions...

If the cause is familicide and not some elaborate illusion, then I'm curious how the mechanics of the spell work out precisely. In particular to how Haera defined 'family' and 'directly related' and so on, ...in regards to Tarquin. Depending how the spell worked, such as eliminating any Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon DNA for example, does that mean that there might be non-related survivors present in the Draketooth compound? Or did Tarquin need to get a resurrection from one of his army's clerics recently, possibly without Malack's blessing? Or was there an emotional attachment that simply did not exist between Penelope and her second 'husband'?

[raphfrk]

And given just how paranoid Girard has proven to be, I doubt he's going to be very predisposed to listening to V's explanations on how this was just an awful coincidence.


If if he 100% believed V, I don't really think it would matter much. "You killed my entire family, but it was an accident, so no problem then."

The intention behind Familicide was to prevent vengeance for killing the black dragon, but mass killing just means more people dead and thus more people to be vengeful.

It would needed to scan people who cared about each target. If you have any friends/family who care about you enough to avenge your death, add them to the list and apply recursively. However, that might scan to far.

[Vodnuth]

With the related to dragons theory: that would explain the dragonmarks. In DDO you can get the dragonmark feats which show you are related to dragons. This is all evidence for the familicide theory but I personally don't think they were familicided. I don't know what to think, but I'm leading towards illusion because this would be a great trick to lead people into the madness of illusions.

EDIT: And I doubt the spell familicide could go cross-race even if the cross-races were related but what would I know? I'm no Epic Necromancer.

[Zorgophlats]

Familicide is an unique epic spell, so it seems unlikely someone other than Haerta can cast it; so, this would mean the IFCC did this somehow, but that doesn't seem to fit their passive demeanor.But that was the splice that got away! Have we seen her "Rounded up" as the IIFC said it had to? Not to my memory, on screen that is. Isn't it possable that Haerta found a way to interact with somebody else?

My head… explodes on each page nowadays.

[UtimaII]

You know, it never ceases to amaze me just how violent, depraved, and morbid this comedic comic can be. An entire family/clan is found dead and their corpses are in the middle stages of decomposition. Wouldn't see that in most other comics, comedy or otherwise. Good job, Giant.


Also, I don't know if this has been said already, but how much do you want to bet that the OotS is going to be blamed for this. If Girand or his son isn't among the dead, and they just happen to come back know, then they're going to find their dead family with the Order standing over their corpses. Pretty suspicious if you ask me.

[AngelusAlvus]

At first I thought it was poisoned food which killed them, but if you look crarefully, you'll see some people still carrying their food when they dropped dead.

[Tom the Mime]

Has is occurred to anyone that the snarl may be responsible? we see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) that the snarl is able to kill humans without leaving wounds. So perhaps the gate is weak or even already broken. The interesting thing is that the race for the gate could still continue, as it will take some time for the various sides to find the real gate and see it to be destroyed. Meanwhile, the snarl could be waiting to strike again at any party that gets too close.

That seems to be unlikely given the observation by Redcloak here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html).

[King of Nowhere]

this has NOT been done by nale or Xykon, simply because those corpses have been rotting for a while. xykon has yet to arrive, nale couldn't have been there more than a day.
now, i think it would be more likely that the stuff is real. remember, durkon still has his true sigth on. I'm sure girard could have fooled that, but i see no reason for it. belkar's smell can be justified by those corpses being semi-mummified by desert climate, and thus smelling different from normal corpses.
My bet is that girard is becoming so increasingly paranoid that he decided he can't trust even his family, so he killed them all and is planning to become a lich or something to guard the gate himself forever, alone cause he can't trust anyone.

of course, it is also possible that it is an epic illusion capable of fooling true sigth.
I understand now how girard could become so paranoid: illusionist is the kind of class that encourages you to not believe what you see. And if you consistently not believe in what you see, you are going to believe whatever delusion of yours, and you'll keep finding confirmation of it because every contrary evidence is illusion or fabricated or such. I pity him, being an epic illusionist can drive you mad.

[toughluck]

I agree. This is an illusion, to throw people who are blatantly looking for the Gate off, while the Draketooth Clan is safe elsewhere. These kinds of permanent illusions (to create the smell in the canyon as a false trail) are more in line with an epic level Illusionist, and the petty traps leading into the temple only reinforce this: the Draketooth clan wants people to enter and think they were all murdered in the temple.

Ah, no. Definitely not to throw people off, at least -- while it would lull some into a false sense of security, this would also say "Ding, ding, free access to the gate!"

On the other hand, the theory that this is Familicide's work, simply fits brilliantly with the story. Nobody aside from V in OotS knows about Familicide, nobody has any idea what might have happened.
Poisoning is out of the question, although I originally thought it was possible, but consider the difficulties:
1. If it was a slow poison, it would affect the cooks first, and slowly claim one victim after another. Somebody would notice and stop eating, at least, if not a cleric who could purge poison from those alive, and successively raising or burying the dead.
2. If it was fast poison, it would kill the cooks immediately, and the body count would be much lower.
If that wasn't enough, there are dead people who were still carrying food to their table. The sheer number of them indicates that it would be impossible for everybody to eat at the same time.
To reiterate: if it was poison, there'd be at least some survivors and the eating room would not have any of the dead by now.

Familicide would also kill those with ties to the family, including mothers of children that were killed by the spell -- which includes Penelope, hence explaining why nobody is responsible for her death.

[Dire Llama]

Normally I don't comment on the new strip posts, but I did have to say I found the image of the dead little girl lying next to apparently her mother's outstretched arms very sad and depressing.

Good dodge of the Stuffed Toy Gratuitous Pathos, actually showing the kid.



Must have been a pretty bad lunch.

They had the fish. (And don't call me Shirley.)



Time to pin the blame on the order of the stick.

That would be textbook. Nice call.



2) What's Haley breaking in the first panel?

The last 'trap' I think. At least it's a physical object and not just a transparent overlaid rectangle.



How did the guy in purple on the bottom right table manage to get a celery stick on top of his arm?

Hehe! Comments like this is why I read the forum! :)

[Unisus]

Just a thought on the question, why Belkar would explizitly say it were no rotting corpses if this was not an illusion: If it's to dry there in the desert, the corpses may not rot but simply mummify - they don't look rotten. And i guess the smell of a mummy would be someway other than the smell of rotting flesh.

[B. Dandelion]

... and I was wondering where Xykon was going to find his next batch of disposable minions...

If the cause is familicide and not some elaborate illusion, then I'm curious how the mechanics of the spell work out precisely. In particular to how Haera defined 'family' and 'directly related' and so on, ...in regards to Tarquin. Depending how the spell worked, such as eliminating any Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon DNA for example, does that mean that there might be non-related survivors present in the Draketooth compound? Or did Tarquin need to get a resurrection from one of his army's clerics recently, possibly without Malack's blessing? Or was there an emotional attachment that simply did not exist between Penelope and her second 'husband'?

Tarquin was never at risk.

Nothing is said about emotional attachment, just the bloodline. IF Familicide is what's in play, Penelope wasn't put at risk for having been married to Orrin, but for having a child with him. That daughter, being directly related to Girard, would be targeted by the spell, and Penelope, being directly related to her daughter, would also be.

Tarquin, who'd gone out of his way not to have children after Nale, would not have been at risk through Penelope, whether or not they were genuinely in love.

[King of Nowhere]

the way there was no violence on the bodies, and some of them were clutching their bellies, I assumed it was food poisoning, and I tougth girard became so paranoid, he decided to kill his family because he could not trust them.

but now that i read the familicide idea, it makes a lot of sense. all those guys were direct descendant of girard, so if girard was directly related to the abd, he and all his descendant have been targeted. the time is also very rigth: those guys died at lunchtime a couple weeks ago, which is exactly when familicide was cast.
if girard has not died of old age already, there is a chance of him having survived the spell somehow, being epic and having access to powerful magic. or maybe he turned nto some sentient undead, so he would be immune to death effect in the first place.

All i know is, there could not have been a worst time to interrupt the comic-a-day thing. I can't wait to see what happens.It's gonna rip me inside until I see!

[Sir Conkey]

In case of my theory, they don't trust strangers, and screw around with the order - especially if they have been observing the order in 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

Pretty sure that was Zz'dtri scrying on them. Hence how Nale knew their location (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0801.html)

Unrelated to that, but related to the actual point at hand. Major Image is a third level spell that can replicate sound, smell and thermal effects. I'm not saying this last panel is an illusion (I personally believe it isn't)... But yeah, could be, could be.

In favour of the "It's an illusion" theory. The reason it might not smell like corpses should smell is cause Girard is using his obviously inferior human senses to replicate the smell.

[Roberto]

Anyone else think that the statue of Girard would mean he died a while back? Therefore no epic illusions...

[Krim]

My favorite spell-based explanation is Horrid Wilting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/horridWilting.htm). It insta-dries the corpses, making them unattractive to beetles, who just come in for the food as the strip shows. But a question remains: Who did it?
The LG and Tarquin want to wait for the Order to do the hard work, even if Z could cast this, it seems they have little reason to do so.
Xykon could do this, but it's not his style at all.
The IFCC could have an interest in riling up Girard and making sure he doesn't cooperate with the Order. If they used V off-panel they could probably achieve this. Surely they have ways outfitting V with spells he doesn't normally possess. And using part of V's debt off-panel to set up a plot surprise would be just beautiful storytelling imo.
It still allows FOR save, is still subjected to SR, and still deals damage that may not be enough to mid to high level subjects.

Besides, you still have to find the place, still have to make it there undetected to surprise them, and still have to actually make it out alive.

It takes FAR, FAR, FAR more than a 8th level spell to anhihilate such a clan.

[Kish]

The familicide theory is really good, though there are (as people have pointed out) some potential problems--most especially, why didn't the people who had married into the family survive,
What people who married into the family? If the Order's theory on what happened with Orrin Draketooth is right, the Draketooths are given to using people in the outside world to reproduce and abducting the resulting children--not to bringing outsiders into the family.