PDA

View Full Version : Determining level adjustment?



Grinner
2012-02-24, 02:25 AM
I've been thinking of getting into homebrew, and I've decided to start with developing a system for creating racial traits from stat blocks.

One major stumbling block I've run across is level adjustment. Some stat blocks have it, and some don't. The problem is, it's quite necessary for the project. I've thought of extrapolating it from the creature's CR, but CR seems to be determined by trial-and-error. Any ideas?

Closest thing I could find is this (http://csserver.evansville.edu/~jc84/DD3/Monster_ECL.htm).

Thomar_of_Uointer
2012-02-24, 12:17 PM
I've been thinking of getting into homebrew, and I've decided to start with developing a system for creating racial traits from stat blocks.

One major stumbling block I've run across is level adjustment. Some stat blocks have it, and some don't. The problem is, it's quite necessary for the project. I've thought of extrapolating it from the creature's CR, but CR seems to be determined by trial-and-error. Any ideas?

Closest thing I could find is this (http://csserver.evansville.edu/~jc84/DD3/Monster_ECL.htm).

Generally speaking, templates and monsters with not listed level adjustment are not playable, or they are not recommended for PCs. You have to remember, there are two definitions here:

Effective Combat Level: This is Level Adjustment + Racial Hit Dice + Class Levels. An ECL 10 character should contribute as much to an adventuring party as a level 10 human.

Challenge Rating: A fuzzy number that is most directly used to determine how much experience points and treasure PCs get. There are also some guidelines about attack and AC being roughly 13 + CR on average. A level 10 adventuring party should expect to exhaust most of their resources fighting four CR 10 monsters.

These are two entirely different concepts, which is why they are not related in any way, shape, or form.

Prime32
2012-02-24, 01:32 PM
That said, most LAs are massively over-inflated. By the formulas WotC was using in Core, the ability to cast a spell increases your LA by its caster level. So if you added templates to a commoner 20 to replicate less than half of an lv20 spellcaster's spells, you'd end up with an ECL of at least 40. Likewise, a nymph is basically a 7th-level druid without wild shape or an animal companion (both of which are incredibly powerful)... and is an lv13 character.
Plus, having lower HD than the other PCs means you have worse BAB/hp/saves than anyone else, and anti-mook spells like cloudkill and holy word kill you instantly. This is particularly jarring when you're playing an ogre or something and end up physically weaker than your human teammates.

Yitzi
2012-02-24, 02:49 PM
Likewise, a nymph is basically a 7th-level druid without wild shape or an animal companion (both of which are incredibly powerful)... and is an lv13 character.

But with a deflection bonus and saves bonus based on CHA, which could be quite impressive with optimization. An at-will save-or-lose gaze attack, and a stronger one as an at-will standard action, doesn't hurt either. Without the high LA, phrenic nymph would be an extremely strong build, especially once it level dips in paladin (probably of tyranny) and wilder.

Prime32
2012-02-24, 05:17 PM
But with a deflection bonus and saves bonus based on CHA, which could be quite impressive with optimization.You can pick up those and more in about 3 levels. Plus a nymph has far greater MAD than a druid (who only needs Con and Wis).

As for the beauty+gaze, they're close-range (when you're squishier than a druid), can be replicated by spells, and the first only affects humanoids.

Lyndworm
2012-02-25, 07:38 AM
I've been thinking of getting into homebrew, and I've decided to start with developing a system for creating racial traits from stat blocks.
I can't help with actually calculating the LA; it seems more or less arbitrary on WotC's part and there'll never be concrete methodology on which we can all agree, anyway.

However, there is already a method of creating racial stats from stat blocks. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Monsters-as-Characters, but friend-to-all Urpriest has a truly wonderful guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928) helpful to those both new and experienced.

AugustNights
2012-02-25, 08:00 AM
Pathfinder, while being different in many ways, uses CR as ECL, which seems to work rather smoothly.
There is an argument about abilities monsters have are designed to be used once before dying, while player abilities are meant to be used many times, and there being some balance kerfluffle there.

Also, you may wish to check out the Monster Class Community, we've done away with LA trading it out for Class Levels. Quite a few monsters have already been stated up, and I'm sure any of us would be more than willing to build a monster class by request.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2012-02-25, 11:31 AM
Pathfinder, while being different in many ways, uses CR as ECL, which seems to work rather smoothly.
There is an argument about abilities monsters have are designed to be used once before dying, while player abilities are meant to be used many times, and there being some balance kerfluffle there.

Also, you may wish to check out the Monster Class Community, we've done away with LA trading it out for Class Levels. Quite a few monsters have already been stated up, and I'm sure any of us would be more than willing to build a monster class by request.

Pathfinder also has an official point-buy system for racial abilities. It's currently in playtest, you may want to check it out.

http://paizo.com/store/downloads/v5748btpy8osf

Yitzi
2012-02-25, 09:51 PM
You can pick up those and more in about 3 levels.

How? Paladin does give the saves, but those stack. And I don't know of any way to get the deflection bonus, other than ghost which is also high-LA.


Plus a nymph has far greater MAD than a druid (who only needs Con and Wis).

Not really. You're using mainly CHA, with a lower (acheivable via items and a 12-14 base score) amount of WIS, DEX, and CON. Remember, you're getting big bonuses to everything except STR and CON from racial bonuses, so you don't need to put so many points in them.


As for the beauty+gaze, they're close-range (when you're squishier than a druid)

That's what UPD plus a dorje of vigor is for. And you're not going to be easy to hit; once you can afford a cloak of charisma +6 on top of cheaper stuff (including a monk's belt), you should be able to push AC up to the 40s (30s touch), even using Core-only sources. (My build (http://community.wizards.com/coco/wiki/Thinily) using the actual ECL (15) can push AC up to 54 going all-out on buffs; counting only buffs with a duration of 2 hours or more, it still hits 47. Touch AC is 40 or 38 respectively.) And with a low LA, your PR (from Phrenic) will be enough to cause at least some misses. Grabbing stuff like Wilder 2 and a ring of evasion (which my build couldn't quite afford on top of everything else) will make you all the harder to hit.


can be replicated by spells

Which ones?


and the first only affects humanoids.

Yeah, that is somewhat of a downside. Still a viable option for many campaigns.