Warlocks broken(later in the game)?

[Venser]

Hello :)

I was just checking warlock and I thing that, once it reaches level 20, it is completely broken.

His eldrich blast never misses and his invocations let him bypass spell resistance and damage reduction. If he takes 3 levels of hellfire warlock, that thing is unstoppable.

[MagnusExultatio]

Nobody tell this guy about the core Wizard. I think it'll make his mind explode.

[Venser]

I play a level 21 core wizard xD

Wizard has many variables unlike warlock. There are things like saves, spell resistance, immunities, energy resistance etc.
Warlock bypasses all of these.

[sonofzeal]

Hello :)

I was just checking warlock and I thing that, once it reaches level 20, it is completely broken.

His eldrich blast never misses and his invocations let him bypass spell resistance and damage reduction. If he takes 3 levels of hellfire warlock, that thing is unstoppable.
.......yyyyyyeahhh.... but he's doing how much damage a turn?

[sonofzeal]

I play a level 21 core wizard xD

Wizard has many variables unlike warlock. There are things like saves, spell resistance, immunities, energy resistance etc.
Warlock bypasses all of these.
Solid Fog bypasses all of those too. So do the Orb spells, form the same book Warlocks are in.

[Dark Tira]

Solid Fog bypasses all of those too. So do the Orb spells, form the same book Warlocks are in.

Aww, don't be stripping him of his wizard innocence. It's so rare and cute these days.

[MagnusExultatio]

Alright, here's a serious answer.

Eldritch Blast + Hellfire Warlock is not as cracked up as you make it to be. Adding Uncanny Whatsit or Legacy Something to supercharge it makes it funnier, but the damage can be outpaced somewhat easily, especially by melee characters. Its only draw is that it's very reliable damage, but being pure dice and only having a single shot a round puts a damper on it.

Invocations are nice, especially since they're at-will, but you get a lot of the good ones later than the full casters, and they're not quite all that good. And you get so few of them it's a pain in the dangly bits.

As for saves, Wizards don't really have to care about them, or they can just hit the weak ones. Same goes for SR. Immunities can be worked around, same with resistances. And Wizards have spells that outright ignore all of the above.

The fact that warlocks ignore them doesn't really mean much when they're not in a great position to flagrantly abuse them.

[Venser]

.......yyyyyyeahhh.... but he's doing how much damage a turn?

Not counting any feats and adding a hellfire warlock prestige(which is a must, IMO) he deal 15d6 each turn.

[MagnusExultatio]

Not counting any feats and adding a hellfire warlock prestige(which is a must, IMO) he deal 15d6 each turn.

That's an average of 52.5 damage.

That's not a lot at the level you're doing it.

[Mystify]

Not counting any feats and adding a hellfire warlock prestige(which is a must, IMO) he deal 15d6 each turn.
Thats only about 50 damage. Thats low for a single hit, much less as your entire damage output for the round. If you are a glaivelock and can full-round it then its more appealing, but still not outstanding. A gish could be using wraithstrike to get the same accuracy while dealing a lot more damage on a lot more attacks.

[sonofzeal]

That's an average of 52.5 damage.

That's not a lot at the level you're doing it.
It's also dealing Constitution damage to you, so you need Incarnum or Binding to really abuse it.

Also, I think most people can agree that the Hellfire Warlock PrC is doing a lot of the heavy lifting there, rather than the power coming from the base class like the OP seems to be suggesting.

[Krazzman]

You do about 50 DMG per round. At level 20 where some enemies tend to have about 400 HP. Furthermore there are still miss chances, Spell Resistance and other forms of defense.

The Invocations you'll take are great but not really gamebreaking (except for some single ones [shatter could be game-breaking]).

On the long run you have a solid class that is sort of... lacking behind other classes simply because his form of damage isn't high but reliable, his array of tricks is far superior to that of a fighter but a sorcerer will have a better spell selection, if the player knows what he is doing.

[Keneth]

A warlock, even fully optimized, will never stand toe to toe with full casters, neither in terms of utility or pure blasting power and any properly optimized melee-type character will often outdamage a warlock even with his 36d6 energy + 24d6 hellfire damage with a full glaive attack (~210 damage might seem like a lot, but it's really not).

They can however be incredibly flavorful and fun characters, and some of their epic feats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) can make them quite cheesy.

[sonofzeal]

A warlock, even fully optimized, will never stand toe to toe with full casters, neither in terms of utility or pure blasting power and any properly optimized melee-type character will often outdamage a warlock even with his 36d6 energy + 24d6 hellfire damage with a full glaive attack (~210 damage might seem like a lot, but it's really not).
Well, no. If you're reliably doing >200 damage in a round, against most opponents, that is a lot in most games. But that's it's doing a fair amount of backlash Con damage (you're losing 40 points of health in the process), there's still defenses by way of miss chances and illusions (Hellfiring a mirror image will make for a sad Warlock, and that's a 2nd level spell), and it's a pretty specific combo. It's still good, but if you're digging around for that kind of synergy then you're going to find it on almost any class.

[Randomguy]

That's like saying martial characters are overpowered because their attacks bypass spell resistance, saving throws and energy resistance, and always hit with their huge BAB unless they power attack, which just gives them more damage.

Needless to say, they aren't. Although it is true that the best type of damage dealing is melee damage dealing because of this.

[Eldariel]

Full attack from a Core Barbarian 20, with no frills, is easily going to do 200-300 damage to a level appropriate encounter accounting for AC. Full attack from a Great Wyrm your Wizard Gated in is going to do more.

And Wizard can Time Stop and Gate a bunch in turn if necessary. Hell, he can Shapechange him and his companion into something big (say, Pit Fiend) and do quite reasonable damage himself.


15d6 is orders of magnitude lower than what any level 20 character does; it's about what you'd expect from a level 9 character or so. You need Eldritch Glaive & Binder to get anything done; that'll at least get your damage up there with Core Melee so you aren't wasting your turns entirely.

And to truly approach Wizard-like powers? Warlock 4/Binder 1/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Hellfire Warlock 3/Eldritch Disciple 9 is a good baseline Warlock 20. You basically lose out on Imbue Item but that alone isn't worth 12 levels.


Basically, the big misconception here is that AC is something of a problem later on (it only limits how much you can Power Attack for, and that's before Shock Trooper comes into the equation), SR is something of a problem (your caster level tends to be inflated over your character level and then there's True Casting and Assay Resistance which both more or less bone SR in the eye) and that dealing damage is the most efficient action to take in combat (it's not unless it one-shots your target, in which case you're denying actions properly).

[Tr011]

Hellfire Warlock + Uncanny Trickster + Legacy Champion + Major Bloodline for a Hellfire Warlock lvl of 16 is kind of cheesy. First, you read some rules intentionally wrong and need a stupid GM that allows this. Of course, the damage would be quiet good.

But regular Warlocks with simply their 9d6 (+2d6 from item, +6d6 from Hellfire Warlock) are not OP. That's 60 average damage. Not much at all.
You can get a magic missle to an average damage of 100 per casting, WITHOUT metamagic (so simply as lvl 1 spell slots). With metamagic you get this to broken levels. And it's just one trick you can do with a wizard.

[Wings of Peace]

Hellfire Warlock + Uncanny Trickster + Legacy Champion + Major Bloodline for a Hellfire Warlock lvl of 16 is kind of cheesy. First, you read some rules intentionally wrong and need a stupid GM that allows this. Of course, the damage would be quiet good.



What rules are being read wrong and why does it require a stupid GM/DM? I'd allow this in my games, hell, I encourage my players to build things like this. Though, I'd advise my players to use a more optimal build than the one you're proposing.

[Tyndmyr]

Hello :)

I was just checking warlock and I thing that, once it reaches level 20, it is completely broken.

His eldrich blast never misses and his invocations let him bypass spell resistance and damage reduction. If he takes 3 levels of hellfire warlock, that thing is unstoppable.

{{scrubbed}} Level 20 anything is powerful. Warlock...not particularly so. The damage is not great, and making touch attacks that bypass SR is...extremely normal. You realize that bog standard core blasty spells are d6/level instead, right? It only gets better from there.

Spells are not generally affected by DR. I don't know why that part bothers you.

There's nothing even slightly broken about warlock.

[Ast]

Can someone please explain to me, how do you achieve 100 dmg with Magic Missile without metamagic?

Warlock gets the good stuff in epic levels, though ;)

[Mystify]

Can someone please explain to me, how do you achieve 100 dmg with Magic Missile without metamagic?

Warlock gets the good stuff in epic levels, though ;)
I'm curious about that one myself. I've cranked magic missiles before, but it always needed meta magic to get the damage to that level.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I play a level 21 core wizard xD

Wizard has many variables unlike warlock. There are things like saves, spell resistance, immunities, energy resistance etc.
Warlock bypasses all of these.

Spell Compendium, Orb of X.

Core rulebook, Maze, Planar Binding, Summon Monster, Spell Penetration, Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Focus, various Transmutation buffs, being able to prepare for enemies you have any info on.

Complete Arcane, Energy Substitution.

Wait, why am I doing the work? Look up D&D 3.5 GOD Wizard, Batman Wizard, and The Mailman.

[blazingshadow]

warlocks are not as broken as monks though...

[Igneel]

To say the Warlock is broken compared to the Wizard is like comparing the Dragon Shaman with the Vigor Aura vs a Cleric.

Besides, imho a Dragonfire Adept that was able to get metabreath feats can use Tiamat's Fivefold with Maximize along with several others to deal more damage by level 20 then a Warlock.

[Voyager_I]

warlocks are not as broken as monks though...

Let me tell you about partially charged wands...

[Tyndmyr]

Can someone please explain to me, how do you achieve 100 dmg with Magic Missile without metamagic?

Warlock gets the good stuff in epic levels, though ;)

Force Missile Mage for increased cap, extra missiles and avoiding immunties, and action economy abuse, typically starting with sorcerer and utilizing methods like arcane fusion to get lots of magic missiles cast per round. Typically, you would toss at least some metamagic on this, but bulk unmodified missiles can provide notable damage.

It's not particularly broken without metamagic, but this sort of build probably has a lot more flexibility and other options than a warlock build would.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Force Missile Mage for increased cap, extra missiles and avoiding immunties, and action economy abuse, typically starting with sorcerer and utilizing methods like arcane fusion to get lots of magic missiles cast per round. Typically, you would toss at least some metamagic on this, but bulk unmodified missiles can provide notable damage.

It's not particularly broken without metamagic, but this sort of build probably has a lot more flexibility and other options than a warlock build would.

Or take Leadership and make your cohort and all your followers wizards. Have them prepare Magic Missile. You now deal a lot of damage with Magic Missile. :smalltongue:

[Mystify]

Force Missile Mage for increased cap, extra missiles and avoiding immunties, and action economy abuse, typically starting with sorcerer and utilizing methods like arcane fusion to get lots of magic missiles cast per round. Typically, you would toss at least some metamagic on this, but bulk unmodified missiles can provide notable damage.

It's not particularly broken without metamagic, but this sort of build probably has a lot more flexibility and other options than a warlock build would.
But arcane fusion would be using a 5th level spell slot, and action economy abuse would not be a single casting. He said a single casting out of a 1st level slot with no metamagic.

[Tyndmyr]

But arcane fusion would be using a 5th level spell slot, and action economy abuse would not be a single casting. He said a single casting out of a 1st level slot with no metamagic.

Then he's guilty of either hyperbole or extreme cheese.

That aside, any vanilla level 20 wizard can easily deal 20d6 damage in a round. Anyone who cares about damage can do notably more. I don't think the warlock is particularly broken in blasting damage.

[mikau013]

Turn into a spellweaver and cast magic missiles 6 times as a standard action :smallcool:

[Mystify]

Turn into a spellweaver and cast magic missiles 6 times as a standard action :smallcool:

I know from experience that can be absolutely devestating to a party. Esp. with multiple spellweavers.

[Eldariel]

Then he's guilty of either hyperbole or extreme cheese.

That aside, any vanilla level 20 wizard can easily deal 20d6 damage in a round. Anyone who cares about damage can do notably more. I don't think the warlock is particularly broken in blasting damage.

Yeah, a Vanilla Wizard can do that with one level 6 slot as a multitarget ability with no feats, class features, items or...well, anything else. It's...not even remotely impressive.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I love how OPs disappear in threads like t

[Zombulian]

I love how OPs disappear in threads like t(his)

It's because he has realized his complete ignorance and has left for a ritualistic cleansing in the Temple of Brilliant Gameologist to learn the ways of optimization.

[Darth_Versity]

It's because he has realized his complete ignorance and has left for a ritualistic cleansing in the Temple of Brilliant Gameologist to learn the ways of optimization.

May Bahamut watch over him. That is long and difficuilt road that not all survive, and those that do are forever changed by the experience!

[ericgrau]

At level 20 a core fighter does about 250-300 damage a round with little more than the fighter tree and a magic weapon. He doesn't auto-hit though against average CR appropriate monsters so power attack alone actually hurts him b/c 2 more damage is pitiful compared to making him lose part of that pool of hundreds of damage. It takes shock trooper to squeeze out more. But point is a core fighter is doing more than a warlock's blasts without even trying and he probably flies and so on via magic items too.

That much damage isn't breaking the system; not when a warlock does it, not when a wizard does it, not when a fighter does it better. It's just par. Breaking the system is chain gating infinite wishes or auto-winning an encounter via exploiting some lazy book editing. Otherwise the nerf bat is more dangerous to fun play than the player whether it's used against warlock or wizard. Use it but use it conservatively.

The OP probably left b/c many people were being so hard on him. Or maybe he has better things to do than camp forums and hasn't even checked yet. Chill.

[Eisenfavl]

What rules are being read wrong and why does it require a stupid GM/DM? I'd allow this in my games, hell, I encourage my players to build things like this. Though, I'd advise my players to use a more optimal build than the one you're proposing.

I think the major bloodline is the really broken bit. It's technically RAW, but still.

Legacy champion & Uncanny trickster boost HF warlock. Assuming 3 (MBL) + 3 (HFW) + 3 (UcT) + 4 (LC) + 3 (W) you would think it is 3+3+3+2=11 levels of HFW. But it's not, because MBL advances Uncanny T and LC and base warlock as well. This gives you (3+3)+3+(3+3)+(2+3)=20 levels of HFW, or 40d6.
Still not much, but fun with the glaive. And remeber that you are technically level 13, thankyou bloodlines.

Honestly a bloodline is the gate to infinite cheese redux.

[candycorn]

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

The relevant text is bolded.

So, a Wizard 3 / Master Specialist 2 / Alienist 1 / Blood Magus 1 / Elemental Savant 1 / Fatespinner 1 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1 / Incantatrix 7 / Bloodline 3?

Would cast spells as a Wizard 17 (for spells per day, and the like).

However, since bloodline levels add to each class for calculating the level-based ability of determining caster level... He would be caster level 41.

3 (Wizard) + 3 (Bloodine added to Wizard) = 6
2 (Master Spec) + 3 (Bloodline added to Master Spec) = 5
1 (Alienist) + 3 (Bloodline added to Alienist) = 4
1 (Blood Magus) + 3 (Bloodline added to Blood Magus) = 4
1 (Elemental Sav) + 3 (Bloodline added to Elemental Sav) = 4
1 (Fatespinner) + 3 (Bloodline added to Fatespinner) = 4
1 (Iot7V) + 3 (Bloodline added to Iot7V) = 4
7 (Incantatrix) + 3 (Bloodline added to Incantatrix) = 10
Add all together, and your caster level is 6+5+4+4+4+4+4+10, or 41.

This can be used with Clerics and holy word/blasphemy shenanigans to get auto killing.

For example: Cleric 8 / PRC 1 / PRC 1 /PRC 1 / PRC 1 / PRC 1 / Bloodline 3
level 16 character. Casts as a cleric 13, but caster level is 31, enough to kill any 21 HD or lower creature, no save. Add on prayer beads, and that goes to 25HD. As for SR? Well, let's assume SR 31, a healthy number for a CR 16 encounter. CL 31 automatically bypasses it. Even SR 36, something a normal ECL 16 cleric would need a 20 to get? Is passed 80% of the time (100% if you add on the karma beads).

In addition, when such a cleric casts Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellResistance.htm), he gains a SR of 43 or so, making him all but immune to most spells.

That's the text that makes bloodlines broken, and the explanation, complete with examples, for it being RAW.

[Myth]

I would expect such a thread by someone who has Jan 2012 as his join date. How does one spend several months on GITP without knowing about le Wizard?

[Tr011]

@Magic Missles: Force Missle Mage increase the number of missles and can add Energy descriptors, then you stack stuff like "+force damage" "+cold damage" "+fire damage". Reserves of Strength (noncheesy reading) gives another missle per casting.

[Mystify]

@Magic Missles: Force Missle Mage increase the number of missles and can add Energy descriptors, then you stack stuff like "+force damage" "+cold damage" "+fire damage". Reserves of Strength (noncheesy reading) gives another missle per casting.

Force missile mage makes a great mailman.

[Telonius]

Warlocks are (or can be) broken later in the game, but not for the reason you think. A dedicated item-crafting Warlock can be almost as devastating by WBL-mancy as an Artificer. (Artificer has a serious edge due to the craft pool, retain essence, and free crafting feats; but given enough levels the Warlock catches up to the point that there's not much difference). 12d6 hellfire? Bah. This guy is busy emulating Batman with scrolls, wands, and staffs.

Like the Artificer, he has potential access to every spell in the game. But unlike the Artificer, the things he creates actually are divine or arcane magic items. Errata states that Artificer items are neither divine nor arcane. A Wizard would have to UMD a scroll that an Artificer made for him; if he bought it from a Warlock he could use it normally. So a Warlock's trigger and completion items are (slightly) more useful to other members of the party.

(EDIT: I have seen it argued that Warlock items are all Arcane since Warlock is subject to Arcane Spell Failure. If that's the case, divine casters are out of luck. Personally I think that's splitting hairs a bit too close. But even if that's the case, the items are still more useful to half the casters out there).

[Psyren]

The Warlock's major weakness as a crafter is that he doesn't get the crafting feats for free like the Artificer does. Furthermore, the Artificer's "drawback" of their items being neither arcane nor divine really only applies to the spell-trigger and spell-completion stuff. Many Wondrous Items, Magic armor, weapons etc. don't care who wears them and these items are therefore free-for-all.

The Psionic Artificer eclipses them both, however.


Force missile mage makes a great mailman.

In many respects, yes... but remember that while they have a better chance of piercing SR, they are still subject to it, and therefore to other such defenses like immunity, globe of invulnerability etc.

[DigoDragon]

The Scintillating Scales spell cast on a dragon can annoy many Warlocks. :smallsmile:

[Keneth]

It isn't that problematic really. A great gold wyrm still only gets a +11 deflection bonus. Hardly problematic for your average warlock of the appropriate level.

There are of course other ways to buff the touch armor of creatures if you really wanted to. For opponents such as dragons, it's wise to explore such options, warlocks are the least of their problems as far as touch attacks are concerned.

[candycorn]

The Scintillating Scales spell cast on a dragon can annoy many Warlocks. :smallsmile:

That spell will annoy most characters, actually. Martial types will be using heartseeking amulet. Gishes? Wraithstrike. Wizards? Touch Spells.

In fact, almost any character can gain access to touch attacks, and effective ones.

And if you think those are bad? Ray of Enfeeblement is one of my more favorite spells for a dragon. Combine it with Fatigue effect abilities, and in the case of gold dragons, strength damage breath weapons, and you can practically paralyze a party in short order.

I mean, look at a 30 strength barbarian. Gets hit with an 8 point str damage breath weapon, a 8 point ray of enfeeblement, and gets exhausted? He's now 8 strength. Won't even get to use power attack, not to mention no running or charging.


It isn't that problematic really. A great gold wyrm still only gets a +11 deflection bonus. Hardly problematic for your average warlock of the appropriate level.

You're looking at the wrong version of the spell. Spell Compendium has the reprint, which is: "change the creature's natural armor bonus to a deflection bonus." Great Wyrm Golds get a +40 deflection, more with the right spells (+5 nat armor spell first, for example).

[Telonius]

The Warlock's major weakness as a crafter is that he doesn't get the crafting feats for free like the Artificer does.

Absolutely agree. Artificer gets his feats sooner, more often, and for free. All that stuff together with his infusions is why he's Tier 1. A high-level crafting Warlock would probably be, effectively, low Tier 2. Not because of any particular class feature, other than Imbue Item; but because access to all spells and magic items is just that powerful. Totally capable of breaking the game, just takes a lot more time, gold, XP, and Feat investment to do it.

[Mystify]

In many respects, yes... but remember that while they have a better chance of piercing SR, they are still subject to it, and therefore to other such defenses like immunity, globe of invulnerability etc.
Being a force missile mage does not mean you don't have other spells. You can assay spell resistance and heighten out of globes and dispel immunities if you need to, or you can use a different spell. But magic missiles are highly reliable.

[Keneth]

You're looking at the wrong version of the spell. Spell Compendium has the reprint, which is: "change the creature's natural armor bonus to a deflection bonus." Great Wyrm Golds get a +40 deflection, more with the right spells (+5 nat armor spell first, for example). Meh, I didn't even think of looking into Spell Compendium. I'm not surprised, the book is full of broken spells.

[Tyndmyr]

Meh, I didn't even think of looking into Spell Compendium. I'm not surprised, the book is full of broken spells.

Not really. It's got one or two shaky spells, but it's literally a catalog of stuff, much of which was printed elsewhere. It's ratio of broken to non broken is a lot better than say, core.

[Socratov]

*sniffs some oxygen after blacking out from laughing*

teeheee...

In what way do warlocks ignore SR on offense with their invocations (other then vitriolic blast)? I mean, the blasts and actually any targeted offensive ability for the warlock. If you really want to pierce SR you need vitriolic blast, but after a few times your DM is going to find out and say "hang on, this guy now has SR and is immune to acid (easy te get with items/castings/whatever)" From then on you are pretty much screwed over and can't hit anything anymore (your blast is hindered by both AC and SR although AC doesn't really matter much). I sill think it's not his EB that is great, but indeed his potential for crafting and using items. Imbue item is great when combined with decieve item. Congratulations: whatever/whomever the item was intended for, you can now use it and make it. (just remember to go chamelion2 for the floating feat). Warlocks are equally OP as the druid is a one trick pony...

disclaimer: to be honest, i was once like this too, "omg infinite castings, how op!" and "a damaging attack on touch AC, fully customizable!" Little did i know that SR is a real pain in the backside. I once had a fight where i could do nothing because the simple task of overcoming SR before vitriolic blast was nigh impossible...

[Tr011]

Warlocks are (or can be) broken later in the game, but not for the reason you think. A dedicated item-crafting Warlock can be almost as devastating by WBL-mancy as an Artificer.

+1 For that. And the ability to take 10 on UMD is really nice.

[Socratov]

+1 For that. And the ability to take 10 on UMD is really nice.

remember, he can not only take 10 on UMD, he can pretend to be anything he wants when he tries to use an item. at lvl 4 a warlock can basically use all the items in the dnd universe.

[Person_Man]

When evaluating a class, consider it's overall resources, and how many of it's resources that it can use in a single round, encounter, and game day (assuming 4ish encounters per game day).

A Warlock is generally considered (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=bc18425e5fa73d30e4a9a54889edf4 4e&topic=1002.0) to be quite weak. Although it theoretically has "unlimited" resources that it can use throughout the game day, it's ability to use resources in any given encounter or round are fairly limited compared to other classes.

Being in a weak tier isn't necessarily a good or a bad thing. It just means that compared to other classes, you will have fewer options available to you, and that those options will generally do less.

For example, a 10th level Barbarian can easily Rage, charge, and deal +200 damage per round. That's pretty useful in defeating standard enemies. But that's pretty much all he can do. By comparison, a 10th level Wizard can often win combat with a single spell, and his spells have such a huge variety of open ended options (Polymorph, divination, battlefield control, direct damage, etc) that he can proactively shape his future and set the terms for encounters, instead of just reacting to them.

[Socratov]

And while the warlock has considerably more options then the barbarian he has not enough raw power to end a given combat by sheer damage, he can quite adeptly do battlefield control though. the problem, however, remains that the warlock can;t effectively end an encounter by himself like the barbarian and wizard can. I think the sweetspot for the warlock as a debuffer lies around the moment he can get chain blast so he can debuff with essences a lot more targets in a battle (or at least disrupt their coördination of movement and place enough).

[JadePhoenix]

Alright, here's a serious answer.

Eldritch Blast + Hellfire Warlock is not as cracked up as you make it to be. Adding Uncanny Whatsit or Legacy Something to supercharge it makes it funnier, but the damage can be outpaced somewhat easily, especially by melee characters. Its only draw is that it's very reliable damage, but being pure dice and only having a single shot a round puts a damper on it.

I believe you are mistaken, my friend. Please, allow me to enlighten your thoughts about melee warlocks. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159708)

[kardar233]

I believe you are mistaken, my friend. Please, allow me to enlighten your thoughts about melee warlocks. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159708)

The Clawlock is nasty. I make mine Dragonwrought Kobolds, get 3 levels of Bard and stack Beast Strike, DFI and Rapidstrike for tons of damage.

[Socratov]

So yes, we have established with cheddar-ish build you can abuse the heck out of eldritch blast, however, that is about as far as optimization goes. with the same level and effort of optimization a wizard sort of surpasses the gods, druids become primordial forces of nature, clerics -> see wizards, artificers have made absolutely every artefact ever and spell to power erudites have broken the world, timeline, reality and anything remotely reminding reality after warping it inside out and back again. The only cheese missing is the sarrukh and we all know where that gets us...

and even then, an übercharger can race past and leave a bloodsmudge of anything beatable by mundane damage in 1 action where you will take slightly more effort. Remember, the dice are all d6, that means on average only 3.5 dmg, no extras what so ever. Even with DFI, sneak attack, etc. you still need to work around immunities, precision damage conditions and ye olde SR, which brings me back to my previous point: when you make these kinds of builds, no sane DM is giving a monster either acid resistance or SR, he will probably give them both so you will have a chance to fail (and in the case of SR quite a big one) since a warlock is so feat starved he can't really spare the feats for the SR penetration lines. And even if you did a glave/claw lock, congratulations: you have now created a one trick mass murderer, which brings us back to point where the discussion of the tier system began (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga-ijQP0KxY).

have a nice day :smallamused:

[nedz]

In my experience people who first look at the Warlock fall into two camps.

Camp X
Infinite use SLAs + Infinite use, customisable range touch attack = Broken

Camp Y
Very narrow set of options from a small pool = Useless: who would want to play such a weak archer.

Both views are wrong, but are common first impressions.

[Voyager_I]

That's the text that makes bloodlines broken, and the explanation, complete with examples, for it being RAW.

That's probably one of the worst clauses in the entire game. It takes an interesting feature that's probably decently balanced (as far as D&D goes) and makes it much more complicated to implement while also hilariously broken if any effort is made to abuse it.


...just...why did they even have to add that? It would have fine if you just repeated a level.

[mikau013]

Can't you just quick draw a weapon and then use eldritch blased + ijatsu focus? :smalltongue:

Still not very good, but a little better

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

It makes perfect sense for the simple humanoid mostly single-classed PCs that the rules assume. It does not however say that multiple boni from the same BL stack simply by adding redundant PrCs. Common BL fail #24


It's because he has realized his complete ignorance and has left for a ritualistic cleansing in the Temple of Brilliant Gameologist to learn the ways of optimization.Wow someone here ac

[Wings of Peace]

It does not however say that multiple boni from the same BL stack simply by adding redundant PrCs. Common BL fail #24

Sure it does unless I've misunderstood your statement.


Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels...

The Soul Binding Bonus ability progresses based on levels in the prc. It's not different than saying 2 levels of Anima Mage and 2 levels of The Knight of the Sacred Seal grant a +4 bonus to your effective BL.

[JadePhoenix]

Can't you just quick draw a weapon and then use eldritch blased + ijatsu focus? :smalltongue:

Still not very good, but a little better

No, because iaijutsu focus increases weapon damage and eldritch blast is not a weapon.


So yes, we have established with cheddar-ish build you can abuse the heck out of eldritch blast, however, that is about as far as optimization goes.
Erm... no. Aside from good damage, a melee warlock has utility from UMD, skills and invocations.


with the same level and effort of optimization a wizard sort of surpasses the gods, druids become primordial forces of nature, clerics -> see wizards, artificers have made absolutely every artefact ever and spell to power erudites have broken the world, timeline, reality and anything remotely reminding reality after warping it inside out and back again. The only cheese missing is the sarrukh and we all know where that gets us...
...So? It basically means the warlock is a better designed class, because you can optimize it and not break the game.


and even then, an übercharger can race past and leave a bloodsmudge of anything beatable by mundane damage in 1 action where you will take slightly more effort. Remember, the dice are all d6, that means on average only 3.5 dmg, no extras what so ever. Even with DFI, sneak attack, etc. you still need to work around immunities, precision damage conditions and ye olde SR, which brings me back to my previous point: when you make these kinds of builds, no sane DM is giving a monster either acid resistance or SR, he will probably give them both so you will have a chance to fail (and in the case of SR quite a big one) since a warlock is so feat starved he can't really spare the feats for the SR penetration lines.
OK, now I know you haven't read the melee warlock handbook.
Eldritch Claw ignores spell resistance. Immunity makes no difference for warlocks - eldritch blast is untyped damage. Vitriolic blast is not as important as you make it seem. And really, 'no sane DM' is going to let play your build? Do Rogues only face undead, constructs, elementals and plants? Are Wizards stuck facing Golems through their whole careeers? That point makes no sense. You have weak points as a melee warlock, sure. That's not a bad thing, since it helps the DM.


And even if you did a glave/claw lock, congratulations: you have now created a one trick mass murderer, which brings us back to point where the discussion of the tier system began (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga-ijQP0KxY).
You completely misunderstand the point of any melee lock.
You focus a few resources on optimizing damage, but because of Warlock structure, you still have utility options. A melee warlock is by definition not a one trick pony. It can even be versatile within the combat shtick - it can do melee and ranged just as easily, which is a rare thing to find.

Warlocks are not tier 1 and they are not overpowered. That's a big plus for me. They are far (far) from underpowered and I have a lot more fun playing a melee lock than, say, a martial adept.

[PersonMan]

No, because iaijutsu focus increases weapon damage and eldritch blast is not a weapon.

Weaponlike spell, though. Not sure about the exact wording (don't have C Arc with me ATM) but it's close enough to count for Weapon Focus, etc.

[FMArthur]

Iaijutsu Focus is notoriously loose with its wording. Any attack made against a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon is fair game for Iaijutsu Focus.

Eldritch Blast can work with Iaijutsu Focus applied to it. It shouldn't, but it absolutely can. If it has an attack roll, the answer is yes.

[JadePhoenix]

Weaponlike spell, though. Not sure about the exact wording (don't have C Arc with me ATM) but it's close enough to count for Weapon Focus, etc.

Complete Arcane lists everything that works with weapon-like spells. It's a very narrow list.


Iaijutsu Focus is notoriously loose with its wording. Any attack made against a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon is fair game for Iaijutsu Focus.

Eldritch Blast can work with Iaijutsu Focus applied to it. It shouldn't, but it absolutely can. If it has an attack roll, the answer is yes.
RAI is so clear here I won't even bother arguing about it.

[Socratov]

while i haven't read the guide in detail, i have skimmed it and at least for glaive SR matters, for claw you sacrifice some of your feats or classlevels and quite possibly some WBL. that limits your options on an allready limited list of options for a caster (yes a warlock is a caster). sure you get nice damage (ok, maybe even great), but you do limit your options quite hard.

Then again, if you forsake the whole damage aspect of you eldritch blast you can focus on UMD (as in, really invest breaking that, which isnt that hard, especially with an artificer and archivist near) and go into full battlefield control mode, you rip out Edvard's chilling tentacles of manga spiked forced intrusion (that was the full spellname right? :smallconfused: ) you rip out your eldritch chain and blind, negative level, sicken, anything out of the bleedin enemies. necromancer? Warlock is waaayyyy more fearsome, including about every status condition in the whole bloody book, ok, instead of NAD you go SAD (you will want CHA now), but hey, as if that's a problem. then you pick 4 feats that matter: Spell penetration, Greater spell penetration, Ability Focus, Quicken SLA. Now you have a lot of options to go to in a fight (even making yourself useful next to the wizard), you can either go for the item creation line (maybe even investing 2 levels on chameleon), or go really beserk on extra invocations and in both cases still be an almost better face then the rogue (you only don't get diplo as a class skill, but that could be remedied in some way, and by the way, you get enough from beguiling influence and a massive cha score, it's not as if diplo is hard to do). I do think in the right circumstances a claw or glaivelock can work, but in all those situations a lion totem shocktrooper barbarian works equally well. In all other situations (except the face, both builds can do the face easily, but yeah, that comes naturally to warlock) the debuff/crafter/invocation warlock works better (more efficient with their action economy too with the whole quickening business).

I do agree on the fact that warlocks are better designed for balance then wizrds/clerics/druids/StP Erudites/artificers, but then again, that is quite common...

[FMArthur]

RAI is so clear here I won't even bother arguing about it.

You were responding to a silly suggestion anyway. I don't think it was ever meant to be taken seriously.

If we were to take the serious route, I guess it would make a certain amount of sense if a melee warlock using Eldritch Glaive or Eldritch Claws could count as 'drawing a weapon' by creating the blades of energy each round for the sake of Iaijutsu Focus. It doesn't work by the rules, though; you'd have to get the DM to rule-of-cool it.