Is Sun Domain Inherently Good-Aligned?

[Tortoise262]

I gave this some thought, and I decided that if I'm running a game with a rebuking/inflicting cleric, I wouldn't let him take Sun Domain. You might say that the sun is part of nature, and thus a neutral entity, but those deities that represent the sun are generally taking the role of either providing for their people or vanquishing darkness and evil. In fact, I've looked through Deities & Demigods, and all of the deities listed there with Sun Domain are also good (Taiia is technically Neutral, but only her good "Creator Aspect" provides the Sun Domain). The fact that Aurifar from Sandstorm gives Sun Domain and is Neutral seems like a cop-out to me. Can you think of any Forgotten Realms or Eberron deities that have Sun Domain and are Nongood?

Discuss!

SUN DOMAIN DEITIES
{table="head"]Name|Pantheon/Source|Alignment
Ehlonna|D&D|NG
Pelor|D&D|NG
Apollo|Olympian|CG
Artemis|Olympian|NG
Re-Horakhty|Pharaonic|LG
Frey|Asgardian|NG
Odur|Asgardian|CG
Taiia (creator aspect)|"other"|N*
Elishar|"other"|NG
Lathander|Forgotten Realms|NG
Horus-Re**|Forgotten Realms|LG
Aurifar|Sandstorm|N
[/table]
*Taiia has somewhat of a dual nature, and only the clerics that worship the "good" aspect have access to Sun Domain.
**Indistinct from Re-Horakhty, I think, but I included him for sake of completeness.

[Jeraa]

Once per day, you can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning. The greater turning is like a normal turning except that the undead creatures that would be turned are destroyed instead.

Its granted power is only useful to good-aligned clerics (or neutral ones who channel positive energy.) Evil clerics could still cast the spells (as none of them have an alignment descriptor), but the granted power is useless.

That at least implies thats its leans more toward good. But nothing prevents it from being chosen by an evil cleric, or granted by an evil deity. The granted power would be useless, but if they are fine with that, they could still select it.

No evil deity has it because in D&D, light/positive stuff is good, while dark/negative stuff is evil. Even if they don't actually have an alignment descriptor attached to them.


Can you think of any Forgotten Realms or Eberron deities that have Sun Domain and are Nongood?
In the Forgotten Realms, only Lathander (NG) and Horus-Re (LG) have it.
In Eberron, only Boldrei (LG) has it. However, you can have an evil cleric of a good god in Eberron.


A cleric’s status within her church is usually more important than her relationship to her deity, who is—at best—a distant patron. Therefore, a cleric’s alignment need not remain within one step of her deity’s alignment.

[Mystify]

The spells aren't good aligned. Most of them are just fire or light spells. A couple of them are anti-undead, but in a "sun hurts undead" way, not a positive energy, good aligned way. The power is only useful to good clerics(or neutral that turn), which just makes it more beneficial to good clerics, but that doesn't mean evil should be forbidden it.

[Prime32]

Non-good sun deities? Pelor. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate) :smalltongue:

Annam is a N Sun god mentioned in Complete Divine. Or you could always go with the "worship a concept" route.

Yes, the granted power is useless to Evil clerics. I'd just let clerics of Evil sun gods channel positive energy (you could have a Good god who grants negative energy, but I can't see a lot of those).

[FMArthur]

Just look through Sandstorm if you want to see how sun worship can portray it as an anti-life idol instead of the opposite. Damage through desiccation is a part of the book - sapping the life out of things by drying them up. Worship is only partly about deities and many cleric don't involve deities at all. I would argue that it is more about ideals than the deities themselves, even.

A Walker in the Waste or dry lich in general would be the sort of thing that could easily and appropriately bear the Sun domain for sinister themes.

Character creation is versatile to support a broad range of creative character concepts. Don't narrow it just because some of those concepts are outside your view at one particular moment. Not everyone wants to play the barest archetypes just because that's how it's supposed to be in the mind of someone else at the table.

[Tortoise262]

Thanks for the input, everyone! Though, I wasn't looking for a RAW perspective on the Sun Domain, but how to conceptualize the domain and the practitioners of it. Maybe the rules don't explicitly say that an evil cleric can't utilize the Sun Domain, but how rare or out-of-character would such a practice be?

[Tortoise262]

Just look through Sandstorm if you want to see how sun worship can portray it as an anti-life idol instead of the opposite. Damage through desiccation is a part of the book - sapping the life out of things by drying them up. Worship is only partly about deities and many cleric don't involve deities at all. I would argue that it is more about ideals than the deities themselves, even.

A Walker in the Waste or dry lich in general would be the sort of thing that could easily and appropriately bear the Sun domain for sinister themes.

Character creation is versatile to support a broad range of creative character concepts. Don't narrow it just because some of those concepts are outside your view at one particular moment. Not everyone wants to play the barest archetypes just because that's how it's supposed to be in the mind of someone else at the table.

That's a good point. It makes me question my position and gives me something to think about.

[OracleofWuffing]

Something silly to note, is that the Sun is the default Holy Symbol for good unreligious Clerics, while the Moon Skull is the default Unholy Symbol.

[Psyren]

Amaunator has Sun, and I'm pretty sure he was LN at one point. Apparently when Lathander gets old enough he'll turn back into him or something.

[Aeryr]

Just look through Sandstorm if you want to see how sun worship can portray it as an anti-life idol instead of the opposite. Damage through desiccation is a part of the book - sapping the life out of things by drying them up. Worship is only partly about deities and many cleric don't involve deities at all. I would argue that it is more about ideals than the deities themselves, even.

A Walker in the Waste or dry lich in general would be the sort of thing that could easily and appropriately bear the Sun domain for sinister themes.

Character creation is versatile to support a broad range of creative character concepts. Don't narrow it just because some of those concepts are outside your view at one particular moment. Not everyone wants to play the barest archetypes just because that's how it's supposed to be in the mind of someone else at the table.

I was going to mention that. "Sun" might be a good thing in a place that is normally rainy but in the desert "sun" is a bad thing. It will just depend on the point of view. But the in d&d core it seems to tend towards: sun (as in day/light) vs shadow (as in bad) so the sun domain seems to fall in a good category. If I am DMing expect evil worshipers of the Sun (Seth mode).

[Namfuak]

IIRC, there is a feat that allows you to be two steps away from your deity rather than 1 without losing your cleric powers, so any good god with the sun domain could theoretically have evil clerics who worship them.

Mechanically, an evil cleric could actually take advantage of the granted power by using Sacred Exorcist or Radiant Servant of Pelor, since those specifically increase your use of turn undead, rather than rebuke, so they give you a separate pool. Usually someone would do this for DMM cheese, but it could work in theory.

Fluff-wise, an evil person could hate undead and therefore want to increase their ability to destroy them, or could use their powers to become the lord of a land that commonly fights undead (since they would be so good at it), and subsequently become a dictator.

[Coidzor]

Something silly to note, is that the Sun is the default Holy Symbol for good unreligious Clerics, while the Moon is the default Unholy Symbol.

Huh. I thought it was a skull. :smallconfused: I would've sworn that I'd read that even way back in the 3.0 PHB. *goes to check* Yep, page 111. Now if only I could find my 3.5 phb....:smallsigh:

Wonder why they'd change it.

[OracleofWuffing]

Erp, you're right, Skull for unholy symbol. Still Sun for Holy Symbol, which means if you're an unreligious evil cleric you're still unleashing the power of the sun just as much as a Sun-worshipper.

[Rubik]

Sunburns!

Sun Cancer!

The Burning Hate!

Raaaaaaage!

[Tortoise262]

Violence and death are not necessarily Evil. Saying the sun can be destructive doesn't make it evil (or good, for that matter). Like I said, as a natural body, the sun itself would be considered a neutral entity, but what kind of gods are associated with the sun? An overwhelming majority of them are Good. I'm not so stubborn regarding my mechanics ruling, but I still hold that a Sun Domain, philosophically speaking, is inherently Good.

I did enjoy reading over the "Evil Pelor" conspiracy, though! When he brought up the picture of Jozan stepping on Krusk's face, it immediately came to mind and I had to laugh! I wondered if there was actually any support that Jozan and Krusk were allies. It is quite profound that Jozan casts Symbol of Pain, though!

[Aeryr]

And if an evil cleric gets a hold of a sun domain could he go around searching for powerful sentient undead and use greater turning on them for later on rebuke its minions?

Don't believe there is to much sense in discusing Sun domain goodness. The core deities that offer it are inherently good, so yes, its domains by association will tend to the good axis.

[Talakeal]

An evil sun god would require a mindset that is alien to most humans, but not impossible. For example, in Warhammer 40k the Necrontyr lived on a dying world that was slowly being transformed into a scorched desert, kind of like the Dark Sun campaign setting. For the Necrontyr the sun god is also the god of death and amongst the most evil entities in the setting.

[Dr_S]

My egyptian mythology is weak, but wasn't Ra a bit of a tyrant? despite being the creator.

[Tortoise262]

My egyptian mythology is weak, but wasn't Ra a bit of a tyrant? despite being the creator.

I have no idea, but Dungeons & Dragons calls him Lawful Good.

[Crasical]

I love how the one step rule means that LN, TN, CN aligned dieties can have good -and- evil clerics and paladins serving them. It's always been my fantasy to have a party with two clerics of the same god, one good and one evil, because of differing interpretations of the creed.

[sonofzeal]

I gave this some thought, and I decided that if I'm running a game with a rebuking/inflicting cleric, I wouldn't let him take Sun Domain.
While I don't dispute the rest of your analysis, I do disagree with this part. Adding houserules to ban content based on fluff completely discounts the ability of players to find justification that might be dynamic and interesting.

Orcs in my campaigns have a mythology whereby light and darkness occupy opposite roles. Light is harsh, burning, the time of massed warfare and violence. Dark is gentle, soothing, rebuilding to face the next day. Sun would be the perfect domain for an evil orc cleric under that mythos. It's all about the violence and danger of light.

Don't ban content just because it doesn't fit preconcieved pidgeonholes. That way lies totalitarianism and the sorts of bad-DM horror stories that get retold for years.

[Dr_S]

Fair enough, I almost never use the D&D gods, me and the DMs who run the campaigns I play in almost exclusively run settings they've made up so I can't name more than 3 gods in the D&D pantheon

Bahamut, Pelor and Tiamet. (in case you were wondering which 3)

The campaign I'm running has an evil sun god, so I'm wondering if I should make any changes to their clerics because (pathfinder) the first power of the sun domain can't be used by an evil cleric because it involves channeling good energy.

[deuxhero]

I have no idea, but Dungeons & Dragons calls him Lawful Good.

It also calls Zeus Lawful Good and says a cripple moves faster than the average human, so take Deities and Demigods with a grain of salt.

[Tortoise262]

While I don't dispute the rest of your analysis, I do disagree with this part. Adding houserules to ban content based on fluff completely discounts the ability of players to find justification that might be dynamic and interesting.

Yeah, I'm learning not to underestimate players!

[The Dark Fiddler]

"Pelor? The god of the sun? Don't get me started on him. Everybody loves him. 'Pelor the Great! The Shining One! The Slayer of Undead!' Bah, all he ever did for us was cause trouble. He dries up our land, leaving us without water. He kills our crops. He'd kill us if we weren't smart enough to find what little water he leaves us, and sometimes he still drives men insane. Everybody loves him, but as far as I'm concerned? He's the god of death."

[sonofzeal]

Yeah, I'm learning not to underestimate players!
Glad to hear it!

It's okay to notice potential problems, as long as they're approached with the perspective of seeing how they can be overcome rather than using them to limit the game. Sometimes, the more counterintuitive approaches are the most evocative when they're pulled off. One of my favorites was a Necropolitan Paladin, since taking Necropolitan doesn't actually make you evil. It shouldn't work, but it does, and then we're left pondering the implications. How does the character feel about this? How does it affect his interactions with others? What chain of events led it to happen in the first place? Is he looking for a "cure" for his condition?

By taking a logical absurdity (LG undead paladin) and running with it, it's almost impossible to avoid major character development and a plethora of potential plothooks. The character is almost guaranteed to have interesting roleplay and add something to the game world.

[The Dark Fiddler]

One of my favorites was a Necropolitan Paladin, since taking Necropolitan doesn't actually make you evil. It shouldn't work, but it does, and then we're left pondering the implications. How does the character feel about this? How does it affect his interactions with others? What chain of events led it to happen in the first place? Is he looking for a "cure" for his condition?

By taking a logical absurdity (LG undead paladin) and running with it, it's almost impossible to avoid major character development and a plethora of potential plothooks. The character is almost guaranteed to have interesting roleplay and add something to the game world.

Nice to see somebody made a successful character out of this idea. I've had a similar idea (a distinguished and favored champion of... Pelor, fittingly for the topic, who died and was brought back as an undead) bouncing around for a while. Seemed like the paradox would be really fun to play.

[Talionis]

But for most things that see better during the day, its easy to associate the Sun with Good. But, I don't know much about Underdark, but I would imagine that a lot of the races of Underdark would think that Sunlight and the Sun were evil.

I also think that the Sun is a life bringer. Even tyrants can be thankfulf or bringing life. Maybe an Evil summoner or an Evil plant creature might worship the Sun.

A religion also see the Sun as a or the source of energy in the world. As a source of energy or power it could be easily considered an excellent choice for a tyrant.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I have no idea, but Dungeons & Dragons calls him Lawful Good.

Actually, I think that was Re-Horakhtay, which is Horus infused with Ra's power.

And keep in mind practically all Greek gods except Ares and Athena can be described as TN. Ares is firmly CE, he basically does anything for a shot at killing people. Athena is either LG, LN, or TN, probably LG since she's one of the most benevolent of the Greek gods, even if she does have too much pride, but that's kind of expected in gods.

[Crasical]

Glad to hear it!

It's okay to notice potential problems, as long as they're approached with the perspective of seeing how they can be overcome rather than using them to limit the game. Sometimes, the more counterintuitive approaches are the most evocative when they're pulled off. One of my favorites was a Necropolitan Paladin, since taking Necropolitan doesn't actually make you evil. It shouldn't work, but it does, and then we're left pondering the implications. How does the character feel about this? How does it affect his interactions with others? What chain of events led it to happen in the first place? Is he looking for a "cure" for his condition?

By taking a logical absurdity (LG undead paladin) and running with it, it's almost impossible to avoid major character development and a plethora of potential plothooks. The character is almost guaranteed to have interesting roleplay and add something to the game world.

I've wanted to play a NG necropolitan based on one of those Buddhist Mummies (http://www.odditycentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Sokushinbutsu3.jpg) for a while. A friend of mine noticed that lichdom is not barred from Druids and based a character off that. Incongruities sometimes lead to interesting ideas.

[sonofzeal]

And keep in mind practically all Greek gods except Ares and Athena can be described as TN.
Europa, Callisto, Leda, and Alcmene would like to have a word with you, among others. And that's just for Zeus.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Europa, Callisto, Leda, and Alcmene would like to have a word with you, among others. And that's just for Zeus.

Okay, major Greek gods.

Also, I meant to say "TN or CN".

[sonofzeal]

Okay, major Greek gods.

Also, I meant to say "TN or CN".
Er. You seem to have missed my meaning. Try looking up those names. And bear in mind that these stories are pretty typical of Greek gods.

[NinjaStylerobot]

Not realy. It can also be the domain of slow painful death and hate. Slow, burning hate.

[Elric VIII]

Tezcatlipoca is a CE Olman diety that offers the Sun domain.

"His priests sacrifice to him to bring gently sunlight to crops and parching heat to the crops of their enemies." - Living Greyhawk Dieties

[deuxhero]

I've wanted to play a NG necropolitan based on one of those Buddhist Mummies (http://www.odditycentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Sokushinbutsu3.jpg) for a while. A friend of mine noticed that lichdom is not barred from Druids and based a character off that. Incongruities sometimes lead to interesting ideas.

> You can feel the presence of a terrifying demon...
> Will you stay here?
> Are you sure?

The comfort of death will come, for men and demons alike...by the guidance of the Great Will.

[ericgrau]

The sun fluff is more anti-undead than good. The real issue is whether or not someone who channels negative energy (be he neutral or evil) should be allowed the sun domain. Maybe technically yes but I can see why a DM would disallow it.

Plus the philosophy of the diety himself might be in conflict; maybe he hates negative energy, maybe he hates undead, maybe he hates both. Clerics that go strongly against their deities philosophy fall: often deity philosophy is more important than their alignment because clerics have 3-5 valid alignments for any given deity.

[Alleran]

Not realy. It can also be the domain of slow painful death and hate. Slow, burning hate.
This is also why Zarus grew a beard (literally) and changed his name to Pelor. It's such a simple changeover.

[Mystify]

The sun fluff is more anti-undead than good. The real issue is whether or not someone who channels negative energy (be he neutral or evil) should be allowed the sun domain. Maybe technically yes but I can see why a DM would disallow it.

Plus the philosophy of the diety himself might be in conflict; maybe he hates negative energy, maybe he hates undead, maybe he hates both. Clerics that go strongly against their deities philosophy fall: often deity philosophy is more important than their alignment because clerics have 3-5 valid alignments for any given deity.
But channeling negative energy does not necessarily mean pro-undead. They may just prefer to inflict harm on others instead of heal, and hence spontanous access to the influct line is to their liking.

[ericgrau]

There is a strong association between negative energy and unlife though; much closer than negative energy is to evil I'd say. It's technically ok but I could easily see a DM disallowing it. I could also see a DM disallowing rebuke/command only and allowing inflict. Or I could see a DM merely say that the domain power is useless (allowing rebuke and inflict) and shrug away the conflict as merely an interesting concept unless the PC goes strongly against his deity's specific philosophies. Any of the 3 are valid for the fluff.

[Dr_S]

Now that I've thought about it, why shouldn't an evil cleric be able to heal?

Why shouldn't good clerics be able to cause extra damage.

If an army of Good attacks the armies who follow an evil god, it seems that the evil team better sure as **** have wants of cure light, because they're at a distinct disadvantage.

like wise, some event happens and a group of people following a good god turn on the church and commit unspeakable evil, of the remaining followers, one man is selected to go hunt down the traitors.

I'm not sure I can explain a situation in which a cleric would heal undead though

[ericgrau]

Good clerics may prepare inflict spells, they aren't [evil]. Evil clerics may prepare cure spells. It's more that the spontaneous ability to use them comes from their direct connection with positive or negative energy.

[Dr_S]

ah, see I read this in the pathfinder listing for ceric


A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity’s (if she has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaotic, evil, good, and lawful descriptors in their spell descriptions.

and was thinking "inflict" would be evil, "cure" would be good, I assumptioned wrong, very few spells seem to be one or the other

[kardar233]

Speaking of Egyptian mythology, at one point the Eye of the Sun (often equated with Hathor) is turned loose on Earth by Ra to punish the human race for turning away from him, or some other "jealous god" prattle. She ends up going on a gleeful rampage and is only stopped by drinking a lake primitive beer made with red clay, thinking it was blood.

I'd call that CE.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Speaking of Egyptian mythology, at one point the Eye of the Sun (often equated with Hathor) is turned loose on Earth by Ra to punish the human race for turning away from him, or some other "jealous god" prattle. She ends up going on a gleeful rampage and is only stopped by drinking a lake primitive beer made with red clay, thinking it was blood.

I'd call that CE.

One CE act of anger does not make you CE.

Sekhmet is definitely CE though.

[willpell]

I definitely vote "no" to the OP. I'm extremely sensitive to the sun's light and heat, and become utterly miserable when forced to endure it. To say nothing of skin cancer. It's a genre convention to associate light with goodness, but it's far from obviously right. Orcs and drow being automatically evil went out the window some time ago, and other subterranean races like underfolk and svirfneblin were never evil in the first place; such creatures are evolutionarily adapted to the darkness of the underground realms, and so they definitely aren't going to consider the sun inherently good. Ditto for desert cultures; to them the sun brings death a lot more often than it does life.

My campaign doesn't have an Evil sun god, but it does include an Evil god who governs healing; he's a modified version of Incabulos, the god of plague, and is referred to as the Cancer-God as one of his titles. He heals people because he doesn't think they deserve a respite from suffering just yet, aiming to keep them alive and miserable forever.

Slight digression: In my campaign setting clerics have access to four energy types instead of two: Positive, Negative, Temporal, and a fourth that I don't have a good name for so for now I'm just calling it Flux (it's the opposite of Temporal, which is associated with Law much as Pos/Neg are with Good/Evil, since Law governs the continuity of time and the inevitability of consequences or prerequisites for all actions). Just as any non-Evil cleric can channel Positive and any non-Good can channel Negative, any non-Chaotic cleric can channel Temporal and any non-Lawful can channel Flux; certain deities may restrict the choice further. A cleric who channels Temporal energy spontaneously casts Cure spells, which are flavored not as healing with "life force" but as rewinding time to before you were injured; however he Rebukes or Controls Undead because they're creatures in a state of temporal stasis, and the doctrine of Temporal deities tends to encourage using undead as servants because they've "lost their chance" at being free-willed living beings. Flux energy is the opposite - it sponcasts Inflict but turns/destroys Undead, because it represents the impermanence of all things and the ease with which they can be destabilized into their component elements. I do a lot of subversion of good and evil in my game, and these extra energy types play into it a lot.

[Tortoise262]

That's funny, I just became a lifeguard and I'm forever outside in the sun and need to put on sunblock all the time! I really, really like your Temporal/Flux cleric concentrations!

[Kuulvheysoon]

Amaunator has Sun, and I'm pretty sure he was LN at one point. Apparently when Lathander gets old enough he'll turn back into him or something.

In 4E Forgotten Relams (which I pretty much consider a whole new campaign setting) Lathander has actually already turned into Amaunator.

There's also more than a few sects of the Church of Lathander (see Paul S. Kemp's novels) in 3.5E that worship Amaunator, likely using the Heretic of the Faith feat.


I love how the one step rule means that LN, TN, CN aligned dieties can have good -and- evil clerics and paladins serving them. It's always been my fantasy to have a party with two clerics of the same god, one good and one evil, because of differing interpretations of the creed.

I've technically done this. My sister played a LG paladin (OneWinged4ngel variant) of Hoar, while I played a LE cleric of Hoar. The roleplaying was actually amazingly fun. Even more so when you consider that his portfolio includes poetic justice. Oh, the times we had...