[3.5] 2st level entry to Master of many forms

[Ryulin18]

This really can't be right...Can it?

Begin level 1 as a human or strongheart halfling for the feat, and be a Unearthed Arcana variant Ranger with wildshape (page 58). You will have 40ft move and can wild shape into small/medium creatures to substitute your losses of hacky slashy.

Take Alertness and Endurance as your beginning feats and at level 2 you can enter Master of Many Forms immediately? That is amazing.

[candycorn]

Nope.


These variants simply swap one or more of that class's features for one or more class features of another class. A class feature gained works just as it did for its original class, including the level at which it is gained and any other effects, except as noted below.

There is a way, though. Look at Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a).

[Ryulin18]

Nope.

Oh thank Vecna! :smallsigh:

This is what one of my players wanted to do. I thought he had found the pinnacle of game breaking! But you can still enter it at 5th right?

[Coidzor]

^: 3rd level, actually. Well, ECL 3. 2nd class level. There's the LA of 1, the 1st level which could be in just about anything, and then the 1st level of MOMF. If retraining of levels or other rebuilding is allowed, then that 1st level could eventually get traded away, IIRC, such that one could be a 10th level MOMF at ECL 10 after LA buyoff and rebuilding. This would allow one to take all 5 levels of Nature's Warrior and Warshaper, IIRC. Though Nature's warrior might require casting...
This really can't be right...Can it?

Begin level 1 as a human or strongheart halfling for the feat, and be a Unearthed Arcana variant Ranger with wildshape (page 58). You will have 40ft move and can wild shape into small/medium creatures to substitute your losses of hacky slashy.

Take Alertness and Endurance as your beginning feats and at level 2 you can enter Master of Many Forms immediately? That is amazing.

You gain wildshape at 5th level as a wildshape ranger.

[Mystify]

Oh thank Vecna! :smallsigh:

This is what one of my players wanted to do. I thought he had found the pinnacle of game breaking! But you can still enter it at 5th right?
6th, since you have to take 5th level to meet the requirements. MoMF is teh typical route for a wildshape ranger.

[Aeryr]

Divine minion is broken, so broken...

It's going pun pun way...

By the way would MoMF increase the duration of the wild shape? It doesn't seem so in my book.

[Rubik]

By the way would MoMF increase the duration of the wild shape? It doesn't seem so in my book.Well, it doesn't matter much on divine minion, since the duration is pretty darned long.

[Ryulin18]

By the way would MoMF increase the duration of the wild shape? It doesn't seem so in my book.

You're very right. It doesn't! How do MoMF's get ridiculous amounts of time in wilshape?

[Aeryr]

I won't allow Divine minion if I were DMing. Unless you actually RP it pretty dam well and you only use it to get in the forms that are allowed by it.

MoMF gets a lot of uses so if you are ranger 5 MoMF 1 you have a total of 10 hours a day wildshaped (using your two uses/day) of course you have to take a lot of care with the forms that you are picking because once you run out of those two uses you will lose much of your punch.

[Ryulin18]

Here we go. Just pulled up his character check list (I get all my players to send in what they want to play.). Here is his level 1 spec.

Dwarf wild shape ranger with 30 foot move (Unearthed Arcana), No animal companion because he is "champion of the wild" (complete champion 50) for an extra feat at 4th, who hates arcanists so he is an "arcane hunter" (complete mage 32).

Wow, that is a lot of alternate class features

So at level 6 he gains access to MMoFs. Ouch. :smalleek:

Does this seem passable?

[Mystify]

Oh thank Vecna! :smallsigh:

This is what one of my players wanted to do. I thought he had found the pinnacle of game breaking! But you can still enter it at 5th right?
6th, since you have to take 5th level to meet the requirements. MoMF is teh typical route for a wildshape ranger.

[Aeryr]

Here we go. Just pulled up his character check list (I get all my players to send in what they want to play.). Here is his level 1 spec.

Dwarf wild shape ranger with 30 foot move (Unearthed Arcana), No animal companion because he is "champion of the wild" (complete champion 50) for an extra feat at 4th, who hates arcanists so he is an "arcane hunter" (complete mage 32).

Wow, that is a lot of alternate class features

So at level 6 he gains access to MMoFs. Ouch. :smalleek:

Does this seem passable?

He should still have his animal companion, champion of the wild replaces spells for feats. The best thing to replace for your animal companion as a multiclassing ranger is the PHB2 feature.

It's called distracting attack, works nicely if there is a rogue around.

Edit: His extra feat must be one of the following: Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Eyes in the Back of Your Head (CW), Improved Disarm, Improved Favored Enemy (CW), Improved Feint, and Improved Trip. And he can no longer cast spells ever.

[Coidzor]

Oh thank Vecna! :smallsigh:

This is what one of my players wanted to do. I thought he had found the pinnacle of game breaking! But you can still enter it at 5th right?

It's not really as broken as that. You're still limited by your HD as to what you can turn into. If you're a 1 HD MOMF you can... basically use alter self and have OK physical stats. If you're a 1 HD MOMF who can turn into animals(I don't believe MOMF gives animals, as it assumes one has them already) you have the HD to turn into cats, dogs, baboons, badgers, bats, dire rats, hawks, lizards, monkeys, owls, toads, weasels, rats, ravens, and vipers.

You have the ability to actually turn into none of them, as while one can technically turn into humanoids, one can't turn into any size category of humanoid, it's not until MOMF 2 that one gets the ability to take on large size forms, so a creature with only MOMF 2 as its levels can only turn into large size humanoids and giants with 2 HD or less. Not particularly captivating or game breaking, that.

Even Divine Minion only allows transforming into specific animal types, not animals in general and not small or medium sized creatures.

Granted, it's all rather asinine if one is allowing the divine minion into MOMF trick to fly in the first place, but it bears pointing out.

The HD limitation is the biggest thing though. You don't really get good combat forms until 3+ HD, maybe 5+ HD.


So at level 6 he gains access to MMoFs. Ouch. :smalleek:

So he gains access to MOMF at the same level as a druid. Main difference is he has very little casting to set on fire(and already traded it out) and he'll have a slightly better BAB than the druid entry.


Does this seem passable?

The ACFs really aren't anything to worry about. If he gets clever, he can cause some trouble, but less than a spellcaster could get up to with judicious use of charm person.

The only real thing is if you define natural spellcasting to be an extraordinary quality, so that by turning into, say, a Gloura (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e), he'd then gain some paltry bardic spellcasting. Even there it's not going to be anything too impressive, as most of the creatures with native spellcasting instead of SLAs are outsiders.

[Aeryr]

A fleshraker has 4 HD and he ditched out his spells so no venomfire for you. It's not going to be overly game breaking at low lvl. And equipment tends to stop working while wildshaped.

Edit: When I normally go MoMF I take a lvl in psychic warrior with practiced manifester and the feat Metamorphic transfer to get supernatural abilities (it's much better than assume supernatural ability) also ranger 5, MoMF 10, PW 1, Warshaper 4 (being a changeling, you are really good at wildshaping, you are actually awesome at it). Wildshape yourself in the tiniest form that you can, get over the enemy wildshape into gargantuan and suffocate it to death.

[darkbuu_1]

You're very right. It doesn't! How do MoMF's get ridiculous amounts of time in wilshape?

They get an extra 1/day usage of wildshape every level.

[TurtleKing]

So don't worry about game breakage so much. He first has to check the type then HD and finally size to see if he can wildshape into it. If what he wildshapes into violates anyone of those then doesn't wildshape into it. Plus whatever he wildshapes into is what he has to use the entire duration or until he changes back. The way around that last limit is to take Warshaper all the way for Multimorph. A Wildshape Ranger 5 then Warshaper 5 and MOMF 10 in either order for the PrCs is quite a capable character. Though doing this still doesn't convey anything supernatural.

[Rhaegar14]

You're very right. It doesn't! How do MoMF's get ridiculous amounts of time in wilshape?

MoMF was errata'd to include a class feature that lets its levels stack with Druid (or Ranger, by RAI if not RAW) to determine the character's effective Druid level for wild shape, so far as durations and (much more importantly) Hit Dice go.

[Aeryr]

MoMF was errata'd to include a class feature that lets its levels stack with Druid (or Ranger, by RAI if not RAW) to determine the character's effective Druid level for wild shape, so far as durations and (much more importantly) Hit Dice go.

That's tasty do you know where is that errata published or where can I read it?

[Rhaegar14]

All errata: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

[candycorn]

That's tasty do you know where is that errata published or where can I read it?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

Go to Complete Adventurer.

[Rhaegar14]

Oh hey, just reread it. Turns out I was wrong about the duration bit. But when you have ten uses a day for five hours... does it really matter?

[Aeryr]

Yep the duration part was the one that I was not able to remember, the HD part was quite logical.

[Gnaeus]

It's not really as broken as that.

Coidzor is correct. Even if you allowed entry at level 1 as a base class, MoMF is really not that scary. He is a pretty good scout, but he doesn't fight as well as a fighter, let alone something like ToB. He is actually weaker than the Druid's pet. There are a couple of forms, like fleshraker, that will give him temporary advantages over normal martial characters, but overall he is not as good in combat as a buffed druid + pet or a ToB class.

At level 7, he can get some very handy things, like blindsight. But at level 7, the wizard is casting Polymorph on the fighter, so it isn't pushing the power curve any.

If you allow druids, and you allow spell compendium, MoMf is pretty much weaker from start to finish. Fun? Yes. Flavorful? Yes. Less work prepping spells? Yes. But the druid is just plain stronger.

[Coidzor]

shapechange does all that and the bag of chips.

The druid spell "Enhance Wildshape" gets everything that MOMF 7 gives and then some, in terms of abilities accessed. Combine with Aberration/Exalted/Frozen Wildshape for further fun.

[deuxhero]

And Dragon Wildshape?

What about Ranger entry?


This really can't be right...Can it?


Nope, it should be 2nd...

[candycorn]

MoMF 7 really combos with the abilities granted through all the types allowed. No, it's not as strong as a druid, but it can well be better than a fighter. Especially since it still gets full feats, and can add on 12 more PrC levels, after MoMF 7. Nature's Warrior, Warshaper, etc. For example:

Dwarf Divine Minion of Anhur (LA Buyoff)
Fighter 1 / Master of Many Forms 9 / Deepwarden 2 / Fist of the Forest 1 / Warshaper 5 / Nature's Warrior 2

There's a build (1 flaw used), that gives quite a bit of Con to AC, a variety of forms and shapes and abilities. It's solid for a Melee type.

[Coidzor]

MoMF 7 really combos with the abilities granted through all the types allowed. No, it's not as strong as a druid, but it can well be better than a fighter.

A drunk commoner can be better than a fighter though, that's hardly a reason to frown on MOMF in and of itself.

[candycorn]

MOMF is a better chassis than a fighter was my point.

[Gnaeus]

MOMF is a better chassis than a fighter was my point.

MoMF is a more useful chassis than a fighter. It has worse bab, worse Hp. Is likely to be worse at doing or taking damage. (Yes, he can pick more optimized forms, but the optimized fighter can take things like charging feats, dip barbarian or Tob, etc). The momf is better. He lives in tier 3, and is always useful. But he won't outshine a vanilla melee build at equal optimization for most levels.

And the fighter can use equipment more easily. And if the party has a friendly arcanist, the fighter benefits from buffs like polymorph, where the MoMF doesn't.

[candycorn]

MoMF is a more useful chassis than a fighter. It has worse bab, worse Hp. Is likely to be worse at doing or taking damage. (Yes, he can pick more optimized forms, but the optimized fighter can take things like charging feats, dip barbarian or Tob, etc). The momf is better. He lives in tier 3, and is always useful. But he won't outshine a vanilla melee build at equal optimization for most levels.

And the fighter can use equipment more easily. And if the party has a friendly arcanist, the fighter benefits from buffs like polymorph, where the MoMF doesn't.

The MoMF, especially with Warshaper, has more attacks, can also dip barbarian, can also take charging feats. Yeah, the MoMF doesn't get all the buffs, but it gets a lot of them, and better abilities along with the forms it shifts into.

No, it won't outdamage an highly optimized ubercharger, but it can outdo any charger build that's lower. Heck, it doesn't even need barbarian. Sphinx Claws + Open Least Chakra gets it pounce.

Really, the ONLY drawback is item difficulties. And those aren't such a big deal, considering the flexibility it has.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Never take Warshaper 5, it is a four-level class at the most. The fifth level is equal to Commoner 1 on BAB, saves, and skills. The class feature it grants is extremely lackluster at best, and often completely worthless. A Divine Minion can already Wild Shape at will as a free action so Warshaper 5 is literally a wasted level for them.

Compare the 5th Warshaper level to a 6th Wild Shape Ranger level:
d8 HP, 2+Int skill points, +0 BAB, +0 to all saves, Multimorph.
or
d8 HP, 6+Int skill points, +1 BAB, +1 to all saves, +1 1st level spell, +1 Wild Shape use, +1 hour Wild Shape durations, +1 max HD of your Wild Shape forms.

I'd say you're better off with that 6th Ranger level over a 5th Warshaper level. Even a Nature's Warrior dip is better than Warshaper 5. You don't really even need the 4th Warshaper level with MoMF 7, as you should be using War Troll (Regeneration, you don't even take damage) or Cryohydra (Fast Healing 22, via Frozen Wild Shape) most of the time anyway. A Divine Minion definitely doesn't need Warshaper 4 because he can Wild Shape at will as a free action: "Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#naturalHealing)."

Yes, you only take Warshaper 3. Everything after that is better spent on another class, like Nature's Warrior or more WS Ranger or MoMF levels.


From the Complete Adventurer Errata:

Page 59: Improved Wild Shape (class
feature)
Add the following text to the end of the improved wild
shape ability description: The master of many forms’
class levels stack with other class levels that grant wild
shape for the purpose of determining the maximum Hit
Dice of a form.

So, it looks like it actually doesn't count toward your Wild Shape durations. That makes the Wild Shape Ranger entry a bit weaker, though at 5 hours/use and +1 use per MoMF level, I don't think it's going to be a problem at all. The Divine Minion entry gets an 11-hour duration with infinite uses, so that MoMF increases your HD limit is really all that matters if you go that route.

Wear a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp attached, it gives you your Wis bonus to AC. Since the item 'continues to function' when you're Wild Shaped, and one function of a belt is to hold other items, you can tuck other non-worn items into the belt and they too will not meld into your form when you Wild Shape. You want to keep the Ranger spellcasting and prepare Rhino's Rush, and get a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power. Be sure to take Power Attack and Leap Attack.

Get Frozen Wild Shape from Frostburn with Robilar's Gambit in PH2, and you can use the form of a 12-headed Cryohydra and make a 12-bite AoO every time someone attacks you, plus you can make 12 bites on a charge. You could possibly even get Whirlwind Attack and make 12 bites against each opponent in reach with it every round. Defensive Sweep in PH2 is also extremely good with that, and another reason to watch your BAB. If the Cryohydra is too big to fit, use the form of a War Troll or a Cave Troll (MM3).

[candycorn]

Divine minion doesn't need WS Ranger levels. It's better off with dips and other things.

How about:

Divine Minion of Anhur (LA buy off)

Spirit Lion Barbarian 1 / MoMF 7 / Warshaper 2 / Frenzied Berserker 10

This build features Rage (+4 Str/Con), Frenzy (+10 Str, extra attack), Morphic Body (+4 Str/Con).

Now, with Improved Unarmed Strike, you get an unarmed strike progression of 17/17/12/7/2 /Natural attacks at 12, all of them. This doesn't include Str bonuses, which will be considerable. There's still enough, given starting race of human, for shock trooper and leap attack, allowing (assuming base form Str of 30, a +6 item, a +4 inherent, and then above boosts... 58 Str, or +24 to hit and damage (1/2 on secondary).

Add on Superior Magic Fang, or the like, huge size, and assume 4 natural attacks at 2d8+1/2 Str, and you have:

Charge: +46/46/41/36/31/36/36/36/36
Added damage will be: +102 per hit, or so.

[Coidzor]

Hmm... Unless their as an 11th level druid clause gets around their actual HD...
:smallconfused:
Though I'm not quite sure how that would interact with MOMF progressing their HD limit.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hmm... Unless their as an 11th level druid clause gets around their actual HD...
:smallconfused:
Though I'm not quite sure how that would interact with MOMF progressing their HD limit.

A Divine Minion can use Wild Shape as an 11th level Druid, but only get access to specific forms. MoMF increases your available forms, within the normal size and HD limits. Yes, that 11th level Druid adds to your MoMF level to determine the max HD of the forms you take. At LA +1/ (Class) 1/ MoMF 2 you can take the form of a Humanoid or Giant of Small to Large size, up to 13 HD. You can take the form of a Firbolg (MM2) and get Str 36, Dex 13, Con 23, +12 natural armor, Rock Throwing, and Trample, at ECL 4.

[candycorn]

In fairness, things level out by the time you hit level 8-10. And your HP don't go up, so you're beefy, but squishy.

[Gnaeus]

The MoMF, especially with Warshaper, has more attacks,

At lower BAB + multiattack penalties.


can also dip barbarian,

If he wants to weaken his wildshape, which reduces his available forms.


can also take charging feats.

But he just set 2 feats on fire just to enter the class. He is going to want Multiattack. You have him taking 2 more feats to get pounce. He can start taking power attack and the shock trooper line at...level 15?


Yeah, the MoMF doesn't get all the buffs, but it gets a lot of them, and better abilities along with the forms it shifts into.

So...it is worse in combat, but with more utility. Hey! Thats what I said!


No, it won't outdamage an highly optimized ubercharger, but it can outdo any charger build that's lower.

Maybe an optimized MoMF can. But an optimized MoMF is compared with the optimized ubercharger. A lower op MoMF won't be picking all the best forms, or Chakra Binds. Blow for Blow, the MoMF is weaker than a fighter. He has more abilities, and is much harder to shut out of a fight if his trick (like charging or tripping) won't work. But for standing in an enemies face and swinging the fighter is better.


Really, the ONLY drawback is item difficulties. And those aren't such a big deal, considering the flexibility it has.

Considering how powerful items are, I would say it is a huge deal.