[3.P] Help with Witch in a Magic-Heavy Party

[onemorelurker]

Hi everybody,

So I'm a total Pathfinder n00b who's going to be taking part in a game some time in the next month or so. After looking over the SRD, I decided, having no idea what the rest of the party looked like, that the Witch class looked fun.

Well, it turns out that it's a heavily arcane-focused party, consisting of an Alchemist, a Magus, a Sorcerer and some sort of mundane melee character (probably a Barbarian, but the player hasn't decided yet). I know that the Magus is focusing on spells he can channel and the Sorcerer is doing battlefield control. In light of this (and after asking around to make sure that all the other players were okay with yet another caster in the party), I thought that focusing on buffs and/or debuffs would probably be the best way to go with my Witch.

So what I'm wondering about is what are some good hexes, spells, etc. that I can take to buff or debuff without stepping on my fellow party members' toes? Also, my DM is pretty anti-op (I've already had to have a talk with her about the Stormwind Fallacy), so is there anything I should avoid as being too powerful? We're starting at 8th level.

Also, the campaign world is a homebrew desert-y place loosely based on India and the Middle East. Any suggestions for stuff (patrons, familiars, hexes, whatever) that fits that feel particularly well? I'm probably going to be an elf with the Desert Runner alternate racial trait, but I need more information on the setting before I can say for sure.

Thanks in advance!

[Psyren]

If you want to help your party out, be distinct from the others and not worry your DM about power, I would look into being a Healing Witch. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/hedge-witch) You get all the cure spells for free, can cast them spontaneously, and you can also grab Healing Hexes to keep the party going as well. Everyone will love you for it and you'll take a unique approach from the other casters.

[Gnaeus]

If you want to help your party out, be distinct from the others and not worry your DM about power, I would look into being a Healing Witch. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/hedge-witch) You get all the cure spells for free, can cast them spontaneously, and you can also grab Healing Hexes to keep the party going as well. Everyone will love you for it and you'll take a unique approach from the other casters.

I would never ever do that. No. Not even then.

You COULD trade away your best class features to do something you should be using a wand of cure light wounds to do, but wands are just better. Healing in combat is very rarely a good idea, and if you want to be ready for that 1% of the time when it is, keep your extra hex and just memorize a cure spell.

You WANT Evil Eye and Misfortune and Cackle. Those are the Debuff witch's bread and butter. Slumber is way awesome, but may be too strong for some groups. After those, you can consider stuff like flight, healing, and prehensile hair. Take the Accursed hex feat. Round 1: Evil Eye to debuff target saves so your allies can plaster them. Then Cackle. Round 2: Take advantage of the targets crummy saves to misfortune them. Then Cackle the misfortune hex. Anything that can live through your sorcerer's and Magus' next 2 (each) save or loses with a -2 on its save, while having to roll twice on each save, deserves to win. Note that Hexes bypass SR. They bypass magic immunity from stuff like Golems.

At level 10, you want split hex, and there are several awesome major hexes, like Agony, Ice Tomb, and Retribution.

You should be using hexes most of the time in combat. Spells can then be saved for utility.

[Psyren]

How are you "trading away class features?" You lose 2 hexes, not all of them. Do you really need all 11?

[Gnaeus]

How are you "trading away class features?" You lose 2 hexes, not all of them. Do you really need all 11?

Yes, and you may want the Extra Hex feat. More importantly, you aren't losing numbers 10 and 11, you are losing numbers 3 and 5. This delays the combo of Cackle+Evil Eye+ Misfortune+ Slumber for 4 levels. It means that you won't get fly or healing hexes at a level where they are useful.

Note that I consider healing to maybe be useful enough to drop 1 hex on (and many folks would disagree with that). But the Healing Hex to give you a free cure mod on every party member once per day (thereby saving money) is better than trading spells for cures. Buy a wand of CLW. Its cheaper than buying scrolls of spells that are of equal combat effectiveness to your always useful hexes.

[Psyren]

Eh, they're nice choices and all, but you'll still be T1 and thus useful. My point stands, focusing on healing is a good way to differentiate oneself from the other arcanists in the party.

[Gnaeus]

Yes. You will be different in the sense that you have the ability to duplicate a level 1 wand (which you could take a feat and craft for 375 gp) instead of being different in the sense that you make them better at their jobs. I fail to see how that is a good thing.

[Psyren]

CLW wands aren't very good in combat.

Now, you can argue that in-combat healing is itself not optimal, and you'd be right - for fine-tuned and experienced groups. Now re-read the OP (including the "pretty anti-op DM" part) and tell me if you think their group qualifies.

People make mistakes, and that's where having someone that can burst heal is handy.

[Gnaeus]

Very occasionally. And for that eventuality you buy a scroll. Or memorize one spell. That is a much lower opportunity cost than 2 at will hexes which ignore SR, can't be countered, do not provoke, etc.

And dropping Misfortune on an enemy boss, to make him reroll away his crits and do less damage, is better healing than converting to a cure.

[Arbane]

There have been a few decent guide to playing a Witch. here's one I liked (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1avH5AFYaZ838OC_W7BY_Bnt1TH9KGCc2ygTOb0CiYu0/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1).

Do you know what level you're going to be playing at? Starting at first, or...?

As for my own experience:

The Misfortune + Cackle + Fortune trifecta is GREAT. I think I've saved the whole party on occasion by neutering the boss-monster with Misfortune, and since you're going to be Cackling anyway, you might as well buff your allies in the big fights.

It gets even more fun if the GM uses any sort of custom critical/fumble rules. (I hate fumbles with the fury of a thousand burning suns... unless I'm making them happen to enemies.)

Grab the Flight Hex by level 5. Even before then, the unlimited free Feather Fall can be useful.

If you get a lot of Bad Touch spells, Prehensile Hair can help you deliver them from outside 5-foot-step range.

Really good spells, in my experience: (I've only play up through level 6)

Cantrips:
Message: The mage's walkie-talkie. Great for when the sneaky guys are dong their thing.
Stabilize: Emergency field lifesaving spell, at range.
Detect Magic: I don't need to explain this one, do I?

Level 1:
Mage Armor. Witches do NOT have a lot in the way of defense beyond "hide behind the Fighter". This can help.
Ear-Piercing Scream. The damage is only so-so, but the one-round daze can be a big help.
Enlarge Person: My group is unusually Dex-focussed, so they don't like it much, but a Barbarian could get a LOT of mileage out of it.
Obscuring Mist: Can hinder your own team just as much, but a good thing to have if the other team has a lot of archers and someone yells "kill the laughing one!".

Level 2:
Vomit Swarm. Because swarms can be _nasty_, and the image of a witch suddenly barfing up a swarm of spiders all over some unsuspecting orc amuses me.
Web and Glitterdust: Two of the best debuff spells in the game.
Cure Moderate Wounds: For emergency field-medication on anyone I've already used the Heal hex on.

Level 3:
Speak with Dead: Also known as "Necromancer's Diplomacy". Great for asking questions later after everyone shot first.
Suggestion: For when you want to get info out of someone who's NOT dead, or otherwise make up for Diplomacy not being a class skill.
Summon Monster III: The Dretch's DR, immunity to lightning, and Stinking Cloud have been quite useful. (I'm iffy about this, as it IS a full-round, which cuts into my Cackling time, but if you cast it at the start of the fight, it's pretty good.)

What Familiar you pick is up to you, but I'd recommend something small enough that it can hide in one of your pockets. If enemies don't see it, they won't target it, and the GM might forget it's there. Just watch out for AoE spells...

[onemorelurker]

Thank you for the responses, everybody!

I don't think that I'm going to be going the Hedge Witch route, since healbot is not a party role that I particularly enjoy filling. I will probably be the party's healer, but I'm hoping that I can get by with wands and devote most of my resources to other things. Gnaeus already weighed in on this, but to everybody else: is the healing hex worth picking up?

Otherwise, it sounds like the Hexes I should pick up are Evil Eye, Cackle, Misfortune, Fortune, and Fly. Does that seem decent? I was going to get Slumber, but if it's really powerful then I probably shouldn't.

Is the Improved Familiar feat worth getting? Having a familiar who's less likely to die seems like an all-around good thing to me.

Also, Arbane mentioned Enlarge Person as something the Barbarian would appreciate. What other decent buffs do Witches get? Honestly, I'm a little worried about the Barbarian not being able to contribute to such a cast-tastic party (particularly because I know the Magus at least tried to optimize, though I have no idea how good he is at it), so if I can do nice things for her, I would like to.

[Particle_Man]

To save yourself a feat, get a bat familiar. It is diminutive and can fly, meaning that middle sized and larger folk won't get an Aoo on it if you send it in to deliver touch spells and hexes. Plus, thematic!

As for slumber hex, you could take it but only use it if it looks like a TPK could happen otherwise.

And you could take the cure light wounds hex for emergency bat-delivered healing (and to be the local village's best friend ever).

[Arbane]

Gnaeus already weighed in on this, but to everybody else: is the healing hex worth picking up?

I like it. It's most useful at low levels, and its usefulness goes up sharply the more people you have around who might need healing, since it's one free Cure X Wounds spell per target each day. It's no substitute for a CLW wand, but it's good for making one last.


Otherwise, it sounds like the Hexes I should pick up are Evil Eye, Cackle, Misfortune, Fortune, and Fly. Does that seem decent? I was going to get Slumber, but if it's really powerful then I probably shouldn't.

Sounds like a solid assortment to me. (When picking targets, remember that Evil Eye is a mind-affecting power, but Misfortune isn't.)


Is the Improved Familiar feat worth getting? Having a familiar who's less likely to die seems like an all-around good thing to me.

I'm sure it could be. The big dilemma is: Do you want a familiar that can do useful things in battle, or do you want one that can easily stay safe in battle? Unfortunately, most of the ones that can do both (like Imps and Quasits, both of which get at-will invisibility AND have hands) are evil.
What alignment are you planning on being?



Also, Arbane mentioned Enlarge Person as something the Barbarian would appreciate. What other decent buffs do Witches get? Honestly, I'm a little worried about the Barbarian not being able to contribute to such a cast-tastic party (particularly because I know the Magus at least tried to optimize, though I have no idea how good he is at it), so if I can do nice things for her, I would like to.

Some of the Patrons give buff spells. The main Witch spell-list is much more debuff -heavy. Here's a few which look useful to me:

Level 1:
Enlarge Person: already mentioned.
Mount: A possibility, if they've got any Ride skill and you expect outdoor battles. Plus, who wants to walk?

Level 2:
False Life: more HP is always good for a Barbarian. Or anyone, really.
Soothing Word: Turns some save-or-lose conditions into save-or-suffer ones.
Returning Weapon: Might be fun.

level3:
Fly.
Heroism: +2 to various good stuff.
Rage: Possibly. Ask the GM if the Barbarian can use rage powers while under the influence. (I think so.) If not, it's kind of redundant.
Screech: Not a 'buff' exactly, but both the Magus and the Barbarian will probably enjoy having every enemy in range suddenly provoke an AoO.

Not a lot of stuff, but it might help.

[onemorelurker]

To save yourself a feat, get a bat familiar. It is diminutive and can fly, meaning that middle sized and larger folk won't get an Aoo on it if you send it in to deliver touch spells and hexes. Plus, thematic!

As for slumber hex, you could take it but only use it if it looks like a TPK could happen otherwise.

And you could take the cure light wounds hex for emergency bat-delivered healing (and to be the local village's best friend ever).

I'm not sure how much the local village would like getting healed by a bat, but I take your meaning. Whether or not I go Improved Familiar, getting Extra Hex: Healing sounds like a good plan. I still think I'll avoid slumber, though: probably anything that could TPK this party wouldn't take "Slumber" for an answer, and that seems too situational to spend a hex on.


Do you want a familiar that can do useful things in battle, or do you want one that can easily stay safe in battle? Unfortunately, most of the ones that can do both (like Imps and Quasits, both of which get at-will invisibility AND have hands) are evil.
What alignment are you planning on being?

I was planning on being LN, but I'd be willing to go N if there are better familiar choices there. And I'm much more concerned with having my familiar survive battle than having it be useful there. Given those criteria, what would you suggest?

Also, thank you for all your spell suggestions, in both your posts. I'm still a long way from compiling my spell list (and I need to check with my DM about her policy regarding whether I get more than my base allotment of spells), but you've given me very useful advice.

[Arbane]

I was planning on being LN, but I'd be willing to go N if there are better familiar choices there. And I'm much more concerned with having my familiar survive battle than having it be useful there. Given those criteria, what would you suggest?

I'm not sure. I chickened out on taking Improved Familiar for my character when she hit level 7, so all this is theoretical.

For me, one big draw of the Outsider-type Improved Familiars is that they mostly get 1/week Commune. That's a really useful spell, if you can think of the right questions to ask.

Looking over the available list, though:
LN:
Shikigami (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kami/kami-shikigami) looks like it might be interesting - no flight, but invisibility, hands, and fast healing and a few resistances for survival.
Inevitable Arbiters (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/inevitable/inevitable-arbiter) can fly and have hands, have some odd abilities and get a ton of immunities to conditions, but they don't get invisibility, so you can expect some odd stares. They DO get Regeneration (Chaotic), which can make them mighty hard to kill by enemies without chaotic-aligned attacks.

N:
Some sort of Mephit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/mephit) might work - useful spell-like abilities, hands, and some can fly. They don't get Commune, though.

I'd recommend asking your GM if the new familiar will retain any spells you added to the old one, if you're starting at a lower level and improving the familiar later.



Also, thank you for all your spell suggestions, in both your posts. I'm still a long way from compiling my spell list (and I need to check with my DM about her policy regarding whether I get more than my base allotment of spells), but you've given me very useful advice.

Glad to help! I hope it works out well for you.

As regarding spells, don't forget that your familiar can gain new spells by feeding it scrolls, which generally aren't too expensive. It does require a Spellcraft check, so you'll want to keep that maxed out.

[Gnaeus]

Otherwise, it sounds like the Hexes I should pick up are Evil Eye, Cackle, Misfortune, Fortune, and Fly. Does that seem decent? I was going to get Slumber, but if it's really powerful then I probably shouldn't.

If it were me, I would take slumber, but use it sparingly. It is the one actual save or lose on the low level witch list, so it is nice when you really need someone out of a fight.

[Particle_Man]

If it were me, I would take slumber, but use it sparingly. It is the one actual save or lose on the low level witch list, so it is nice when you really need someone out of a fight.

Also, there are a lot of things immune to sleep anyhow, if the DM feels that you are overwhelming the show.

[Particle_Man]

Personally I was planning to play a witch that took Extra Hex every single feat, but alas she died before I could see it all play out. :)

Then again, I was going for theme more than optimization.

[Arbane]

Personally I was planning to play a witch that took Extra Hex every single feat, but alas she died before I could see it all play out. :)

I was pretty close to that, but I finally folded and grabbed Scribe Scroll last level. Having 4 hexes at level 2 was kind of fun, though.

[Laniius]

I would recommend the scar hex. No, not the scar hex from the book, but the updated one from the srd, on a sidebar here http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch .

Why? For this clause "the witch can use any of her hexes on that creature at a range of up to one mile, and the witch is considered to have a body part from the target for the purpose of scry and similar divinations."

There are many ways this can end up being useful. Not least of which is that you Scar your party (it's up to you on how you fluff the scar's looks, and it doesn't really hinder htem in any way) and now you can heal them with your healing hex at a range of up to one mile.

Or combine it with the feat split hex.

When you use one of your hexes (not a major hex or a grand hex) that targets a single creature, you can choose another creature within 30 feet of the first target to also be targeted by the hex.

And you can hex a creature through the Scar. So, scar a small, living creature. Say, a turtle. Now, combined with split hex your hexes have an effective range of 1 mile plus 30 feet.

Edit: Also, it potentially allows you to allow others to use your personal hexes, as the scar hex says that you can use ANY of your hexes through them. Perhaps your wizard would appreciate prehensile hair to allow him to cast his touch spells at a range of 10 feet?

[onemorelurker]

I'm not sure. I chickened out on taking Improved Familiar for my character when she hit level 7, so all this is theoretical.

For me, one big draw of the Outsider-type Improved Familiars is that they mostly get 1/week Commune. That's a really useful spell, if you can think of the right questions to ask.

Looking over the available list, though:
LN:
Shikigami (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kami/kami-shikigami) looks like it might be interesting - no flight, but invisibility, hands, and fast healing and a few resistances for survival.
Inevitable Arbiters (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/inevitable/inevitable-arbiter) can fly and have hands, have some odd abilities and get a ton of immunities to conditions, but they don't get invisibility, so you can expect some odd stares. They DO get Regeneration (Chaotic), which can make them mighty hard to kill by enemies without chaotic-aligned attacks.

N:
Some sort of Mephit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/mephit) might work - useful spell-like abilities, hands, and some can fly. They don't get Commune, though.

I'd recommend asking your GM if the new familiar will retain any spells you added to the old one, if you're starting at a lower level and improving the familiar later.

Thanks for the familiar help! One of the desert-appropriate Mephits looks like it'd be right up my alley. Though now that people are saying "Oh yeah, you should take Slumber," I'm waffling about whether Improved Familiar or Extra Hex would be a better use of my 7th-level feat...


I would recommend the scar hex. No, not the scar hex from the book, but the updated one from the srd, on a sidebar here http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch .

Why? For this clause "the witch can use any of her hexes on that creature at a range of up to one mile, and the witch is considered to have a body part from the target for the purpose of scry and similar divinations."

There are many ways this can end up being useful. Not least of which is that you Scar your party (it's up to you on how you fluff the scar's looks, and it doesn't really hinder htem in any way) and now you can heal them with your healing hex at a range of up to one mile.

Or combine it with the feat split hex.

When you use one of your hexes (not a major hex or a grand hex) that targets a single creature, you can choose another creature within 30 feet of the first target to also be targeted by the hex.

And you can hex a creature through the Scar. So, scar a small, living creature. Say, a turtle. Now, combined with split hex your hexes have an effective range of 1 mile plus 30 feet.

Edit: Also, it potentially allows you to allow others to use your personal hexes, as the scar hex says that you can use ANY of your hexes through them. Perhaps your wizard would appreciate prehensile hair to allow him to cast his touch spells at a range of 10 feet?

These all sound like good ideas...only mostly not for this party. Using turtles as scar targets and scars as a way to give other people my personal hexes seem like they'd make this particular DM throw things at me. They're neat tricks, though, and I'll keep them in mind for any future games where I'm not treading so lightly around the DM.

[Laniius]

Thanks for the familiar help! One of the desert-appropriate Mephits looks like it'd be right up my alley. Though now that people are saying "Oh yeah, you should take Slumber," I'm waffling about whether Improved Familiar or Extra Hex would be a better use of my 7th-level feat...



These all sound like good ideas...only mostly not for this party. Using turtles as scar targets and scars as a way to give other people my personal hexes seem like they'd make this particular DM throw things at me. They're neat tricks, though, and I'll keep them in mind for any future games where I'm not treading so lightly around the DM.

Fair enough, still the Scar Hex is worth considering for healing your party alone.

Also, I would advise against Improved Familiar. It functions like the Wizard familiar unless otherwise noted. Namely, if it dies, you have to wait a week before getting another one. As a witch, your familiar is also your spellbook, and unlike a wizard you don't have backups. So I advise going for the smallest, wimpiest familiar out there and have it safely in your pocket. I would recommend the Compsognathus if you can get it for a +4 to initiative that stacks with improved initiative if you desire, or a thrush or raven because they can speak. If they can speak they can operate wands, if you invest in Use Magic Device, because their skill ranks are your skill ranks.