Chaotic Mentality: Shojo and Girard

[Crisis21]

Compare the following two comics:

Shojo's words in Comic #405 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html)

Girard's words in Comic #694 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html)

I find it very interesting that, for all his paranoia, Girard's prediction about the Sapphire guard coming around to his gate would be brought about (sort of) by Shojo, a man who seems to share Girard's opinion about a paladin's code of honor, rather than Soon.

Please discuss.

[ThePhantasm]

That's a good observation; aside from that I'm not sure I have anything particularly insightful to add...

I guess the crux of it is this: Girard is simply wrong. I do wonder what happened exactly at Kraagor's Gate that made him hate Soon so...

[Kish]

I would venture that Girard was always as ideologically blinded as Soon himself was.

Every time Soon said anything about honor, Girard thought, "Yeah, right. No one could believe that. When are you going to show what you're really like, hypocrite?" And every day that passed without Soon "showing his true colors" made Girard more convinced that Soon lacked even the honesty to admit that he was dishonest.

[ti'esar]

I would venture that Girard was always as ideologically blinded as Soon himself was.

Really, I'd say he was more so. Soon generally seems to have been an ideal paladin, his role as the originator of the SG's crusades aside.

[The Extinguisher]

Yeah, given that Soon was the only person to adhere to the "let's never talk to each other thing", I think Girard was a little wrong about paladin honour.

[dps]

I don't see that Girard and Shojo are expressing the same view at all. Girard doesn't believe that paladins actually adhere to the code of honor they claim, while Shojo clearly sees that while he doesn't share that code, the paladins do uphold it: "a pointless promise by a guy who's been dead for decades may not mean much to you or I, but it means a lot to the paladins".

[Grey Watcher]

That's a good observation; aside from that I'm not sure I have anything particularly insightful to add...

I guess the crux of it is this: Girard is simply wrong. I do wonder what happened exactly at Kraagor's Gate that made him hate Soon so...

Somehow, I've always thought it was more than just whatever went down over Kraagor's Gate. I kinda see the two of them as having antipathy and mistrust of each other pretty much immediately upon meeting. It's just that between having a bigger problem to deal with (the rifts) and their fellow party members, they were able to keep it in check and get on with the work at hand.

I don't know why, but I imagine that Kraagor, as much as Serini (perhaps moreso) was the glue that held the party together. His (apparent) death while sealing the rift that would later bear his name seems to have hit all of the other five pretty hard and brought the all the tension to the surface.


Yeah, given that Soon was the only person to adhere to the "let's never talk to each other thing", I think Girard was a little wrong about paladin honour.

Do we have evidence that anyone other than Dorukan and Lirian have actually broken the Oath? I mean, Serini apparently had the true coordinates for Girard's Gate, but is there any indication that she ever actually visited there? Girard's family over ever seem to leave the compound to get supplies and procreate, so I would hazard a guess that the Draketeeth, too, have been upholding their end of the bargain. (Of course, if they're anything like their patriarch, they probably don't consider themselves bound by an Oath sworn before they were even born.) And, apart from having the misfortune to cross paths with Xykon, I can't think of anything telling us what Serini's been up to since setting up Kraagor's Tomb.

[KingFlameHawk]

I guess the crux of it is this: Girard is simply wrong. I do wonder what happened exactly at Kraagor's Gate that made him hate Soon so...

This is mostly speculation but based on the scene were it happened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) (and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html)) it would seem to be when Soon told Lirian and Dorukan to seal the rift when both himself and Kraagor were next to it and Soon survived and Kraagor didn't. Girards words in the scene after this, and really in 695, indicate to me that he felt that Soon must have sacrificed Kraagor to save himself (a logical conclusion he would reach but we know otherwise). There was likely problems before that we have not seen but this seems to be the biggest problem he has with Soon.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Do we have evidence that anyone other than Dorukan and Lirian have actually broken the Oath? ...

Well they have a betting pool set up after the agreement was made, so it seems likely that they are at least in passing communication with one another, even if it's just to hand over the other's winnings.

[Grey Watcher]

Well they have a betting pool set up after the agreement was made, so it seems likely that they are at least in passing communication with one another, even if it's just to hand over the other's winnings.

Huh, I figured that bet was within the Draketooth clan, not with Serini or the others.

I do agree with dps, there is a big difference in the way Girard and Shojo look at paladins and their ilk. Girard, being a huge cynic, looks at all the paladins' talk about duty, honor, truth, justice, and so forth and just sees a big lie used to cover up and justify their failings. Shojo accepts the paladins and their values as being true to what they say, he just thinks it's all grossly impractical. Shojo's more of a pragmatist than a cynic, I guess.

I also feel like Girard has a much bigger chip on his shoulder about Soon than Shojo ever did about the nobles who tried to have him killed.

[JaxGaret]

This is mostly speculation but based on the scene were it happened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) (and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html)) it would seem to be when Soon told Lirian and Dorukan to seal the rift when both himself and Kraagor were next to it and Soon survived and Kraagor didn't. Girards words in the scene after this, and really in 695, indicate to me that he felt that Soon must have sacrificed Kraagor to save himself (a logical conclusion he would reach but we know otherwise). There was likely problems before that we have not seen but this seems to be the biggest problem he has with Soon.

I believe that part of this issue hasn't been brought up; I don't think that Soon directly "sacrificed" Kraagor to save himself, however, it is obvious that Soon survived the sealing and Kraagor did not. Now, we must ask ourselves, why did this happen?

The answer, I believe, lies in one of the Paladin's most directly god-granted abilities: Divine Grace. Epic Paladins with high Charisma will have much higher Reflex and Will saves than their Barbarian counterparts. This, I surmise, can be reasonably leaned upon as the crux of the matter.

Soon, knowing that he had higher saves than Kraagor by the grace of his connection with his god, was knowingly putting Kraagor in much more danger than he himself was in. Girard knew this as well, and may see this as the hypocritical straw that broke the camel's back.

[Grey Watcher]

Soon, knowing that he had higher saves than Kraagor by the grace of his connection with his god, was knowingly putting Kraagor in much more danger than he himself was in. Girard knew this as well, and may see this as the hypocritical straw that broke the camel's back.

Well, in fairness to Soon, I don't think his chances of surviving figured into his thought process. Doesn't change that, from an objective perspective, Kraagor was probably at much greater risk than Soon, but I think claiming that Soon "knowingly put Kraagor in much more danger than he himself was in" is just a little harsh. Of course, that's exactly how Girard seems to see it. And Soon stating that he survived thanks to the grace of his Gods would just seem that much more outrageously disrespectful in the eyes of Girard.

[Kobold-Bard]

Random theory: Kraagor was raging like a boss & wouldn't jump out of the way when they cast the spell (Berserker PrC maybe?). Soon jumps clear, leaving Kraagor to get killed, and Girard blames Soon for either not doing more to save them both, or for not tossing the Dwarf to safety rather than saving himself (him being a Paladin and all).

Dunno if it's at all right, just a thought rattling around my brain.

[Euodiachloris]

Or, Girard just took his Chaotic label a little too seriously and just butted heads with anything Lawful in the vicinity with or without a reason. Ironically enough: you'd think Chaotic would be a bit more flexible... <says she who tends towards various shades of Neutral>

[Super_slash2]

Soon, knowing that he had higher saves than Kraagor by the grace of his connection with his god, was knowingly putting Kraagor in much more danger than he himself was in.

Soon, being a paladin, would have no fear of dying. If he asked for them to cast the spells immediately, it would be because it would have served the cause, not because he can get away with it. He lacks a need to think about things in terms of survival; only in terms of success. I think he'd have said the same thing to Lirian or Dorukan even if Kraagor wasn't there, I guess the issue would be him expecting others to be as willing to make the sacrifice as he did.

[Nilan8888]

Every time Soon said anything about honor, Girard thought, "Yeah, right. No one could believe that. When are you going to show what you're really like, hypocrite?" And every day that passed without Soon "showing his true colors" made Girard more convinced that Soon lacked even the honesty to admit that he was dishonest.

I think there's a fair amount of truth to this.

I also think a lot of it came down to the issue of respect. Shojo was Chaotic, but he respected the Paladin code. That is to say, while he might not have agreed with the code and thought it silly, he might have understood that it was a perfectly valid way of looking at things. And if the Paladins really WERE lying to themselves about being 'good', then they were doing it to a point where if it was a lie, it made no practical difference anyway.

Think about it: if a selfish man is so self-deluded that he spends his ENTIRE LIFE trying to prove to himself or others that he is not selfish and takes up an entire code of honor to prove the point -- in the end how is that any different from someone that is actually unselfish? That the deluded man frets about the question while the "true" unselfish person just carries on like Elan not worrying about any of it?

Is it a question that the deluded man was just not 'tempted' enough? Well what was he tempted with? If Girard says O'Chul was just never tempted with a million dollars to betray the Sapphire Guard, that's something. But if Girard says O'Chul was just never tortured and then tempted with the promise that the torture would stop if only he 'betrayed' the Sapphire Guard, then the question of temptation sort of becomes... meaningless.

You know the old aggage "Everyone has a price"? The thing they never tell you is: everyone SHOULD have a price. If the price is the lives of the people you care for, or an end to pain so intense it could make you black out or cause serious brain damage -- for Girard to see that then take a step back and say "see, I told you everyone has a price, even a Paladin" is a juvenile attitude.

[FafnerMorell]

At this point in the story, I don't really believe what Girard is saying in 694. I'm saying this because Girard is an illusionist, and one of the keys to illusion is misdirecting the audience.

And the message does an awesome job of making sure that everyone stops looking in that spot for the gate. Now, maybe the gate isn't there at all, but if I were an epic-level illusionist trying to hide a gate, I'd be pretty happy with the end result. If this isn't how Girard hid his gate, it's how he should have hid it.

In comic 693, it's made clear that this message is one to be shown to folks with knowledge of Soon - I'd be real curious if there are other messages which mentioning other leads would give.

[veti]

I think it's easy to overstate the conflict between Soon and Girard. Sure, in the end they fell out, but before that point they'd been companions on a genuinely epic quest that, presumably, must have run on for some years. We simply have no information on their relationship during that time. I think it's a stretch to extrapolate backwards from what we see of them after the game-changing event of Kraagor's death.

Here's an alternative construction:

The bitterness of betrayal is directly proportional to how much you previously trusted someone. If you always privately despised them, you'll be neither surprised nor very angry when they let you down. But if you really believed they were working to the same goals and ideals as you, you'll be shocked and saddened when they show that they have their own agenda.

I think Soon was a hardworking and conscientious party leader, who probably risked his life more than once to keep his team alive, and earned their trust through all alignment differences. But for whatever reason, at Kraagor's gate he felt he could or should no longer do that, and he "allowed" Kraagor to die for the sake of the greater good. That was shocking to all the other Scribblers precisely because it was so different from what they thought they knew about him.

That's why the group split up: they lost faith in their leader.

Maybe the other members could understand why Soon "betrayed" Kraagor, and maybe they could have forgiven him, but they would never again have trusted him as absolutely as they had before. And Girard went completely off the deep end - he was never going to fall for Soon's bullplop about 'honour' and 'trust' again.

[Jiggs]

Why do we presume that Soon sacrificed Kraagor?
Could it not merly be a misfortunate accident, that led to Kraagors death, that Girad blamed on Soon because of the feeling of loss and the dislike he had for him?

[ti'esar]

No, Soon probably didn't sacrifice Kraagor deliberately - but I expect his death happened in circumstances where it very well could have looked that way.

[eilandesq]

Chaotic Outlooks:

Chaotic Good: "Yeah, if we follow the paladin's rules the bad guys are going to win--I'm just going to work around him."

Chaotic Neutral: "Rules--we don't need no stinking rules! Buzz off, iron shorts!"

Chaotic Evil: "Stab stab stab--run run run!"

Using an intentionally lethal force explosion in that trap--along with the Draketooth clan's method of "recruitment"--puts Girard into the CN, leaning heavily CE (notwithstanding a very strong commitment to the goal of protecting the Gate) category.

[Talvereaux]

I think of Girard as being to the chaotic mindset what Miko was to the lawful mindset.

While they're ideologically opposites, they were both extremists for their alignments. They both believed the only way they could fulfill their alignments was by treating them as inflexible crutches, and assuming that they were so infallible as concepts that they couldn't accept any sort of compromise or deviation.

[krko]

....
Do we have evidence that anyone other than Dorukan and Lirian have actually broken the Oath?

Cloister's loophole exists for this very reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

[Grey Watcher]

Cloister's loophole exists for this very reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)


Do we have evidence that anyone other than Dorukan and Lirian have actually broken the Oath?

There seems to be a broad consensus that Serini and Girard have stayed in touch, and I'm genuinely curious where that idea comes from. As far as I am aware, while Serini had the true coordinates, we don't actually know how she got them (did Girard give them to her, or did she manage to out-sneak him?), why she bothered to write them down (has she been keeping tabs on her fellow Scribblenauts Order members, or does she just write down EVERYTHING, useful or not?), or if she ever even got a chance to act on before Xykon ended up with her diary.

[SaintRidley]

Scribblenauts

Did I manage to start a thing? Or did you arrive at this independently?

Either way, awesome!

[Grey Watcher]

Did I manage to start a thing? Or did you arrive at this independently?

Either way, awesome!

I think I arrived at it independently, but the subconscious is a tricky thing....

[Porthos]

I think it's fairly obvious that Girard thinks he has (had?) a good reason for mistrusting Soon so much.

Now is Girard right? That is an entirely different question (and one which will probably alight the board when it inevitably shows up in the comic :smallwink:).

It is possible that Soon royally screwed up, perhaps several times, and was too proud to admit he was wrong.

Or maybe he just had the social graces of Miko and Girard finally snapped. :smalltongue:

Its also possible that Girard is massively overreacting to things and thus his own prejudices caused him to view whatever happened in the worst light possible.

One interesting twist might be that Soon was unworthy of respect for whatever reason, only to seek redemption and forgiveness afterwards. Which would put this strip in a rather interesting light. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) Of course his little Oath thing would make it hard for him to seek Girard's forgiveness and redress for whatever wrongs may or may not have occurred.

But no one ever said redemption was easy. :smallwink:

[Roland Itiative]

I think it all boils down to Girard projecting his own (Chaotic) mentality into others, thinking people would act the way he would in the same position.

And since Shojo shared at least the Chaotic part of his alignment, what Girard imagined Soon would do, Shojo actually did. It kind of reminds me of Haley's "think like a Rogue" comment way back when Xykon had his decoys during the Battle of Azure City.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Draketooth actually kept tabs on the other Gates, or at least on the Azure City one.

[ti'esar]

One interesting twist might be that Soon was unworthy of respect for whatever reason, only to seek redemption and forgiveness afterwards. Which would put this strip in a rather interesting light. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)

This has occurred to me before - I've often wondered just where Soon got his knowledge of redemption from.

[willpell]

These two characters are the best illustrations of the non-Evil Chaotic alignment's range that I could have asked for. (Which makes it so very fun that D&D 4E ditched both of these alignments.)

[Snails]

No, Soon probably didn't sacrifice Kraagor deliberately - but I expect his death happened in circumstances where it very well could have looked that way.

One example scenario...

Both Kraagor and Soon are standing right next to the rift. So, by one rational measure they are accepting the same risk: make a Reflex save or get trapped with the Snarl.

But Girard might have seen it otherwise: "Kraagor is a high Str/Con, low Dex Fighter. You are a Paladin with a save bonus. He needs to roll a natural 16 or better to jump free of an epic spell like that. You only needed to roll a 10."

Of course, if Kraagor had actually jumped clear, magnanimous fellow he was, it is quite likely he would have come to Soon's defense, and Girard would have dropped the topic.

OTOH...
I think is it possible Kraagor is still alive. He was trapped with the Snarl. It is possible he is alive and hanging with his pal the Snarl, moving mountains, the happiest dwarf that ever lived.