True Seeing and Illusions

[torugo]

I am having a big doubt here. We are talking about an epic illusionist and an spell that, by description, bypasses illusions.

According with the description of the spell, it
"sees through illusions" no restrictions there. So what is the point of being an epic illusionist if a 5 circle priest spell (6 for mages) can bypass even the stronger illusion and make it visible on how it truelly is?

If what we are seeing in the last comic is an illusion, Durkon should be able to tell right away so in the next strip we will be 100% sure on what is going on.

Am i interpreting wrong the spell description? Is there a bypass from true seeing an epic illusionist can make?

[JaxGaret]

Epic magic trumps non-epic magic, period.

The question is what form Girard's illusions will take. Illusions can be defeated, just as all magic can be defeated.

EDIT: Keep in mind that not all of Girard's levels are/were in spellcasting classes. There's no way to know how much epic magic he has or had.

[SaintRidley]

As said above, epic spells simply trump non-epic spells. Non-epic spells generally require an opposed caster level check against the epic spell in order to apply their effects (see anti-magic field for the primary example).

[MammonAzrael]

From a strict rules perspective, I don't believe that's true. The only two mentions I recall regarding epic and non-epic magical interaction is on dispelling and an antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld). This bit notes that the game mechanics do not change and epic magic receives no special resistance aside from it's naturally high caster level. That the part about antimagic fields is there shows that it's an exception, and without a similar entry for true seeing we have to assume that it pierces epic illusions just as easily as standard ones.

In terms of the story, we know that The Giant will not be held slave to the rules, particularly rules as poorly defined as epic magic. It is very possible that Girard is capable of weaving illusions true seeing cannot reveal.

[Ravian]

He only had 2 levels in ranger, probably to get the two-weapon fighting style, but it strikes me as rather pointless to only take two levels in a Melee class. But we can assume he has enough in Sorceror or illusionist to make epic spells.

[ti'esar]

He only had 2 levels in ranger, probably to get the two-weapon fighting style, but it strikes me as rather pointless to only take two levels in a Melee class. But we can assume he has enough in Sorceror or illusionist to make epic spells.

Wait, where do we get actual numbers? All we know is that he has levels in ranger.

[Kornaki]

Wait, where do we get actual numbers? All we know is that he has levels in ranger.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html

Last frame

[SaintRidley]

Wait, where do we get actual numbers? All we know is that he has levels in ranger.

Two levels of Ranger. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html)


As for True Seeing's interaction, I've not read the specifics of interaction in a while. I was under the impression that, particularly for magic "no" buttons like AMF and True Seeing that was how it worked, but perhaps houserules have begun to stick as strongly as official rules.

[Sith_Happens]

From a strict rules perspective, I don't believe that's true. The only two mentions I recall regarding epic and non-epic magical interaction is on dispelling and an antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld). This bit notes that the game mechanics do not change and epic magic receives no special resistance aside from it's naturally high caster level. That the part about antimagic fields is there shows that it's an exception, and without a similar entry for true seeing we have to assume that it pierces epic illusions just as easily as standard ones.

Similarly, it appears that Disjunction still auto-dispells epic magic.:smallsigh:

[Cavenskull]

I am having a big doubt here. We are talking about an epic illusionist and an spell that, by description, bypasses illusions.

According with the description of the spell, it
"sees through illusions" no restrictions there. So what is the point of being an epic illusionist if a 5 circle priest spell (6 for mages) can bypass even the stronger illusion and make it visible on how it truelly is?

If what we are seeing in the last comic is an illusion, Durkon should be able to tell right away so in the next strip we will be 100% sure on what is going on.

Am i interpreting wrong the spell description? Is there a bypass from true seeing an epic illusionist can make?

Spellcasters don't run around all day using True Seeing on everything they lay eyes on. If an illusionist is doing their job right, there's no reason for a spellcaster to suspect the presence of an illusion in the first place.

As an example, even though it was obvious to everyone involved that illusion magic would likely be in use, Durkon didn't cast True Seeing until after being given something specific to check.

[Kobold-Bard]

I am having a big doubt here. We are talking about an epic illusionist and an spell that, by description, bypasses illusions.

According with the description of the spell, it
"sees through illusions" no restrictions there. So what is the point of being an epic illusionist if a 5 circle priest spell (6 for mages) can bypass even the stronger illusion and make it visible on how it truelly is?

If what we are seeing in the last comic is an illusion, Durkon should be able to tell right away so in the next strip we will be 100% sure on what is going on.

Am i interpreting wrong the spell description? Is there a bypass from true seeing an epic illusionist can make?

From the SRD (emphasis mine):

The conceal seed can also be used to block divination spells, spell-like effects, and epic spells developed using the reveal seed; this increases the Spellcraft DC by +6. In all cases where divination magic of any level, including epic level, is employed against the subject of a spell using the conceal seed for this purpose, an opposed caster level check determines which spell works.

So he could add that to his illusions, meaning Durkon would need to make a CL check against Girard to succeed, which given Girard's level & epic WBL I doubt our bearded friend would be able to succeed at.


He only had 2 levels in ranger, probably to get the two-weapon fighting style, but it strikes me as rather pointless to only take two levels in a Melee class. But we can assume he has enough in Sorceror or illusionist to make epic spells.

Two levels in Ranger gets you the first TWF feat for free (useful given mages are generally fairly feat-starved, or if he didn't meet the Dex 15 pre-req), a boost to his HP, BAB & Saves, and it also got him a load of extra skill points, perception skills as class skills for a couple of levels in order to spend them & the Track feat; all which would be useful when your twin professions are Illusionist (telling real from fake) and a Rift-Hunter (actually locating them).

I'd say it was a practical choice, it cost him a couple of spell levels, but optimised his particular niche in life.

[Psyren]

He only had 2 levels in ranger, probably to get the two-weapon fighting style, but it strikes me as rather pointless to only take two levels in a Melee class. But we can assume he has enough in Sorceror or illusionist to make epic spells.

Putting aside that nobody in OotS is particularly optimized, have you seen Elminster's build? :smalltongue:

Not to mention that once you hit epic spellcasting, 2 random levels of... well, anything, aren't going to hurt your build in any appreciable way.

[Douglas]

True Seeing does, by default, automatically defeat even epic illusions. There are, however, multiple different ways to build in "True Seeing doesn't beat this" when designing epic illusion spells, and it would be rather silly and stupid of Girard to not make use of them. There are even ways to beat True Seeing with non-epic stuff, though those tend to be more obscure and less reliable.

True Seeing is the standard premier anti-illusion spell, and as a dedicated illusionist Girard would be well aware of it. As an epic illusionist, he has the tools in the epic spell system to make True Seeing do whatever the heck he wants it to against his epic illusions, so we can't really rely on True Seeing working properly. Heck, it would even be possible for Girard to reverse things - make it so ordinary sight sees what's actually there while True Seeing is fooled with an illusion.

In short, the guesses about what's real and what isn't will continue for the entire Windy Canyon/Girard arc, and no spell the Order uses can change that, not even True Seeing.

[Tulya]

True Seeing does, by default, automatically defeat even epic illusions.


Both the Delude and Conceal epic spell seeds are part of the Illusion school. While that's true of a Delude-based epic spell without the Conceal seed, it's not true of any epic Illusion making use of the Conceal seed. As already mentioned, the Conceal epic spell seed blocks all Divination effects (including Epic Divinations) unless the caster succeeds on an opposed caster level check. True Seeing is a Divination, and hence, is blocked normally without a successful check.

[Douglas]

Both the Delude and Conceal epic spell seeds are part of the Illusion school. While that's true of a Delude-based epic spell without the Conceal seed, it's not true of any epic Illusion making use of the Conceal seed. As already mentioned, the Conceal epic spell seed blocks all Divination effects (including Epic Divinations) unless the caster succeeds on an opposed caster level check. True Seeing is a Divination, and hence, is blocked normally without a successful check.
Not quite. Blocking divinations is one of the possible uses of the Conceal seed, not a default effect that it gets automatically. If you want that effect in addition to whatever your illusion is actually doing you have to take an additional spellcraft DC increase.

[Tulya]

Not quite. Blocking divinations is one of the possible uses of the Conceal seed, not a default effect that it gets automatically. If you want that effect in addition to whatever your illusion is actually doing you have to take an additional spellcraft DC increase.

Spellcraft DC is almost irrelevant* to stronghold defense, though. Barring unusual circumstances, you can usually max out Backlash damage, ramp the casting time up to at least 10 minutes, and make it a ritual without any drawback.
*Not literally, obviously. There IS a practical limit, but you're unlikely to encounter it with practical usage. Permanent duration is an expensive 5x DC, but it allows you to construct your magnum opus piecemeal.

[Douglas]

Oh, I agree that any half-way intelligent epic caster would use the Conceal seed for that purpose when designing epic spells to hide and disguise his stronghold, I'm just saying that it is in fact an extra that you have to pay for rather than a default that you get for free.

Oh, and forget about backlash damage on something like this. RAW is that backlash on a permanent spell is essentially a death sentence - you take the backlash damage once per round for the duration of the spell.

[Tulya]

Oh, I agree that any half-way intelligent epic caster would use the Conceal seed for that purpose when designing epic spells to hide and disguise his stronghold, I'm just saying that it is in fact an extra that you have to pay for rather than a default that you get for free.

Oh, and forget about backlash damage on something like this. RAW is that backlash on a permanent spell is essentially a death sentence - you take the backlash damage once per round for the duration of the spell.

Ha ha, so it is. Shows how infrequently I actually get to play with epic spellcasting. I guess that's the true reason my villain vanished from his stronghold: He forgot the epic backlash rule and died from casting the final defense on his stronghold.
Edit: And didn't have any kind of contingency plan in place for his demise, of course. Because obviously, that's how a wizard makes it to epic levels: Bad planning and research skills.

[Douglas]

Edit: And didn't have any kind of contingency plan in place for his demise, of course. Because obviously, that's how a wizard makes it to epic levels: Bad planning and research skills.
No, no, he had a contingency plan for reviving himself, it's just that the backlash damage started right up again the instant he came back. And there's that pesky rule about death-by-backlash causing level loss no matter how you get resurrected...

The backlash started, he realized his horrible mistake, and he tried to cast his epic dispel to stop it (because the spell with backlash wasn't dismissible), but the ongoing damage from backlash forced a concentration check and he failed it. He died before he could manage a successful dispel, got revived a level lower by his contingency plan, and got trapped in a vicious cycle. The backlash kept blowing his concentration so he couldn't cast anything, and it took too long to find non-spellcasting ways to contact friends powerful enough to help. By the time his allies arrived, he'd gone through so many revivals (because overkill contingency planning, duh) that he was down to level 1 with 1 constitution. And then died again, becoming impossible to revive because his constitution is permanently 0.

:smallbiggrin::smallcool:

[SoC175]

Spellcasters don't run around all day using True Seeing on everything they lay eyes on. Actually epic level spellcasters (and not only them) should be doing exactly that (usually true one of their many magic items).

A great many epic level creatures also have permanent true seeing build in.


As said above, epic spells simply trump non-epic spells. Non-epic spells generally require an opposed caster level check against the epic spell in order to apply their effects (see anti-magic field for the primary example).Not automatically, however such can be added to epic magic at the price of a higher DC


Even worse for epic level illusionists is that a epic ranks in spot eventually also pierce all illusions.

[Cavenskull]

Actually epic level spellcasters (and not only them) should be doing exactly that (usually true one of their many magic items).

A great many epic level creatures also have permanent true seeing build in.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that epic level spellcasters and epic creatures account for a small minority of the overall population, so there are still a large number of people who aren't going to be scanning anything and everything for possible illusions.

As for the those who can use True Seeing all the time, that still won't help them against illusions that aren't vision-related. It also won't help them against clever illusionists who use an illusion to hide a "secret" passage that's really nothing but a trap (of the non-magical sort). Or considering the 120-foot range of True Seeing, an illusion beyond that range could still be perfectly effective, especially if it requires a great deal of effort and personal risk to get close enough to discern the truth. Or what if the illusion is actually needed to perform some task? Imagine for instance that there's a trapped door that will only open safely whenever three pulsating illusions are visible at the same time. A person with True Seeing on all the time may never see the necessary clue.

[Susil]

Presumably its quite within the rules to stack illusions on top of one another?

For instance, you could create an epic illusion using the conceal seed as mentioned. Then, you could cast a different illusion over the top of that at a lower level - so, anyone who uses a true seeing will penetrate one layer but not the other. Just if your plan relies on deception (like Girard's) then that would be quite a simple way of making the party believe they were more successful than they actually are.

[AlexanderRM]

Heck, it would even be possible for Girard to reverse things - make it so ordinary sight sees what's actually there while True Seeing is fooled with an illusion.


Really? That is an AWESOME idea. Could he really do that, though? I don't see any way that True Seeing can really be specified... although he could perhaps use a non-epic illusion (that True Seeing sees through) of what's really there, with an Epic illusion *under* that which blocks True Seeing? That might work, if it's possible to layer illusions like that. It might be better to simply have the surface illusion be something also different from what's there (especially in case people got that far without having True Seeing in use!), but it's still an AWESOME idea. 0_0
That would be great for a story plot, where the person with True Seeing or who made their will save sees something, but it turns out they're actually wrong and the people w/o True Seeing are seeing the real thing.

[SinsI]

Really? That is an AWESOME idea. Could he really do that, though? I don't see any way that True Seeing can really be specified... although he could perhaps use a non-epic illusion (that True Seeing sees through) of what's really there, with an Epic illusion *under* that which blocks True Seeing? That might work, if it's possible to layer illusions like that. It might be better to simply have the surface illusion be something also different from what's there (especially in case people got that far without having True Seeing in use!), but it's still an AWESOME idea. 0_0
That would be great for a story plot, where the person with True Seeing or who made their will save sees something, but it turns out they're actually wrong and the people w/o True Seeing are seeing the real thing.
That's actually pretty easy. You cast Solid Fog using Invisible Spell Effect feat, so that our True Seeing guy sees only that fog - everyone else sees whatever illusion you want them to see. Should be a standard feature for any self-respecting illusionist.

[ericgrau]

True seeing doesn't defeat illusions. Permanent true seeing defeats illusions. The best illusions are the most subtle ones where the observer sees no need to cast true seeing. You can also set people to hide, make fog and pull other such tricks. Good illusionists are clever, not reliant on raw power. It is conceivable that an epic level spell could be designed specifically to be immune to magical detection like Dust of Disappearance but such a thing should be included specifically and added to the DC.