A Dread Necromancer's Familiar?

[5w337x7007h]

I'm looking through the Heroes of Horror, and note that my Dread Necromancer, upon reaching lvl 7 will gain the summon familiar ability, but I'm having trouble deciding which creature I should use; imp, quasit, vargouille, or ghostly visage? Also, are there more familiars I can choose from, for a Dread Necromancer?

[hushblade]

There's an AFC for a necromancy specialized wizard where he trades his familiar for a permanent humanoid skeletal minion. Most reasonable DMs would be okay with that tradeoff since its the same thing for a dread necromancer or a wizard.

[5w337x7007h]

Not to sound stupid, but what does AFC mean? (Not used to using abbreviations)

[Wavelab]

Not to sound stupid, but what does AFC mean? (Not used to using abbreviations)

I think he meant ACF which is Alternate Class Feature.

I personally opt for the ghostly visage due to the range of useful abilities it has, and it can also act as a great incorporeal spy if you want.

[Amphetryon]

While individual opinions vary based on experiences at table, I tend to find the advice in the old Dread Necromancer's Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook) cogent on the Familiar question. Quasits are arguably the best for their 'always on' abilities and subterfuge, while Ghostly Visages have arguably the best special attack.

[5w337x7007h]

Ok, now that I understand the choices of Quasit or Ghostly Visage, I have a question about the visage. What are it's limits when it comes to it's abilities? Referring to meld and gaze of terror.

[Psyren]

Ghostly Visage is best because it effectively gives you mind blank at level 7. But I have a soft spot for Vargouille because you can start a mini-Wightocalypse with them. (Plus they look cute)

[5w337x7007h]

And it's intelligence? Should I run off the familiar list in the player's handbook pg 52-53?

[Need_A_Life]

Ghostly Visage, re-tinker its feats to include such goodies as Ability Focus (familiars get feats too! ).

Mind Blank lite, save-or-suck and general awesomeness.
Also, remember that the action economy will be shifted in your favour by having an actually useful familiar* with a ranged attack (which makes up for its low hp) who can add to your de-buffing function in the party.

Reanimating a couple of giants and maybe using Summon Undead N will let you do the whole "unstoppable undead army off doom" aka Battlefield control

* Beyond +4 Initiative. Thank you Pathfinder for letting a Divination Wizard start with +(Dex+9) Initiative and always act in surprise rounds. That'll go really well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get the Ghostly Visage. It should always be possessing your character, so you get immunity to all mind-affecting effects. During combat it can manifest over your face to use its paralyzing gaze attack, which is a fear effect so your undead minions are immune to it. It can spend a standard action to focus its gaze on someone, so they have to immediately save or suffer its effect, even if they're not looking or if they've already made a save for it that round.

[5w337x7007h]

Alright how exactly would I go about building the Ghostly Visage as my familiar, because I'm getting confused.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Alright how exactly would I go about building the Ghostly Visage as my familiar, because I'm getting confused.

You gain the ability to summon a familiar as a class feature, with the capability of summoning a Ghostly Visage for the purpose of being your familiar. According to the class feature which allowed you to obtain it, "The creature serves as a companion and servant. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcererFamiliar)" You don't have to put any additional effort into binding it apart from what's required for any other familiar.

[Urpriest]

You gain the ability to summon a familiar as a class feature, with the capability of summoning a Ghostly Visage for the purpose of being your familiar. According to the class feature which allowed you to obtain it, "The creature serves as a companion and servant. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcererFamiliar)" You don't have to put any additional effort into binding it apart from what's required for any other familiar.

He said building, not binding.

The familiar class feature describes most of what you need to do. You modify your familiar according to the table, just like a Sorceror or Wizard. Just remember that since your familiar already has its own Int etc, it keeps its own stats if they're better than the ones in the table.

If you're unclear on how to modify monsters in general, the guide in my sig may be of use.

[5w337x7007h]

He said building, not binding.

The familiar class feature describes most of what you need to do. You modify your familiar according to the table, just like a Sorceror or Wizard. Just remember that since your familiar already has its own Int etc, it keeps its own stats if they're better than the ones in the table.

If you're unclear on how to modify monsters in general, the guide in my sig may be of use.

Ok, but there's one final question about the Ghostly Visage.. It's a Symbiont subtype as well as an Incorporeal subtype. I read everything in the Fiend Folio about it, but it doesn't say anything about it's feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ok, but there's one final question about the Ghostly Visage.. It's a Symbiont subtype as well as an Incorporeal subtype. I read everything in the Fiend Folio about it, but it doesn't say anything about it's feats.

Any familiar always starts with whatever feats that creature would typically have. It gets counted as a higher HD creature for game mechanics, such as whether certain spells will affect it, but it doesn't actually gain any HD so it won't get any extra feats or skill points. Use the Ghostly Visage as-printed, but its HP is half your max HP, it uses the higher of your skill ranks or its own for a given skill. It uses the higher of your base saves or its own for a given save, it uses the higher of your BAB or its own, and it gets all the standard familiar benefits shown on the table in the PHB. There's not really any room for customization, it's stuck with the standard feats printed for it and it never gains any new ones.

[Wookie-ranger]

imp, quasit, vargouille, or ghostly visage

Imp, is probably the weakest. he has alternate form, which is neat if you dont want the temple of Pelor knocking on (or down) your door. the invisibility comes in handy too for that reason, but with this he can also spy ahead of the party. at level 7, simple invisibility may not always work though. the suggestion ability is nice; sometimes.

Quasit, same as imp, but better (imho). the only real difference is that he gets a 'cause fear' attack; which stacks with your fear aura; and also stacks with your other fear effects. if done right you can get a perfectly stable individual to a panicking wimp in about 1 round!

Vargouille, sounds very neat, but i have never with one. it has a paralyzing cone attack, but it has a fairly low DC (fort 12). on the up side he can use it as often as he wants. he can also convert paralyzed opponents into more Vargouilles, but not under its control. not sure why what its good for.

Ghostly Visage, always popular and for good reasons. it has lots of good attack abilities, can buff you, is incorporeal.
The paralyze cone is a little better but does not last as long. it is Will DC13 (fighters be gone), last 'only 1d4 rounds (but it usually does not matter if someone is paralyzed for 1 round or 10 minutes), but most importantly it can use it at will and if someone makes his save they are NOT immune to it in the next round!
Incorporeal, nuf said.
The buff of mind shielding is pretty nice, but utterly pointless if you are a Necropolitan (which a DN should always do, IMHO). unless one of your companions would like to give it piggyback ride that is.

[5w337x7007h]

Thanks, I think I understand now. If ya want I'll let ya know how it turned out! :3
(Could I possibly use an intimidate check to boost the Will DC for the Gaze of Terror?)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Thanks, I think I understand now. If ya want I'll let ya know how it turned out! :3
(Could I possibly use an intimidate check to boost the Will DC for the Gaze of Terror?)

You could make an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent, so they'll be Shaken and take a -2 penalty on saves. You could even get the Never Outnumbered skill trick in Complete Scoundrel to demoralize every opponent within 10 ft. at once, once per encounter. It would actually be extremely effective to do that just before the visage activates its gaze attack.

A Dread Necromancer gets a 5-ft. fear aura at 5th level that causes opponents to become shaken. You could also pick up the spell Aura of Terror (SC) via Advanced Learning, though there are a few other extremely strong 6th level choices (Awaken Undead, Animate Dread Warrior). That would make it a 15-ft. radius and give it +2 DC, plus it would make opponents frightened instead of shaken. You can also take Ability Focus: Fear Aura for another +2 DC.

[deuxhero]

t's stuck with the standard feats printed for it and it never gains any new ones.

Dark Chaos Shuffle, or, less cheasily, Psionic Reformation.

[5w337x7007h]

Now what would I do if some of my undead minions turn on me? Can I use my 'shaken' abilities on them?
Also, where are you getting Advanced Learning on 6th level?

[Amphetryon]

Now what would I do if some of my undead minions turn on me? Can I use my 'shaken' abilities on them?
Also, where are you getting Advanced Learning on 6th level?

Shaken is a mind-affecting ability, meaning all your undead are immune without shenanigans. 6th level is the spell level, which is obtained for a straight DN at 12th character level. Note that Advanced Learning is available at 12th level.

[Psyren]

Dark Chaos Shuffle, or, less cheasily, Psionic Reformation.

There's also a Save My Game article that states Limited Wish/Miracle can be used to duplicate Psychic Reformation's effect for non-psionic characters.

[deuxhero]

Can't the two duplicate powers anyways without the article?

[Psyren]

Can't the two duplicate powers anyways without the article?

That depends on how liberal your (or more accurately, your DM's) reading of the transparency rules is. In case he/she isn't, it's nice to have a WotC source to point them to and back you up.

[Venger]

Ghostly Visage is best because it effectively gives you mind blank at level 7. But I have a soft spot for Vargouille because you can start a mini-Wightocalypse with them. (Plus they look cute)

I could have sworn that there was an addendum someplace about dread necromancers' vargouilles not getting the kiss ability.

I personally would endorse quasit. one of the players in my game is a dread necromancer and he loves his quasit familiar. while mind blank is pretty neat, it's a lot more fun to roleplay interactions with a little demon over your shoulder telling you to do bad things than a mask with tentacles on it.


plus quasits are preposterously good in a fight. their wolf form lets them get the neat trip ability and their at-will invisibility is useful for quite a long time (especially since DNs can't cast invisibility)

[mikau013]

I could have sworn that there was an addendum someplace about dread necromancers' vargouilles not getting the kiss ability.



You're probably thinking about Complete Scoundrel which states that Vargouilles summoned as familiars do not posses the kiss ability.

[monkey3]

Personally I love the imp. Inv at will, has hands for wands, and a spell component pouch. Why do you need that? Check out this trick:

Magic Jar into a big baddy a couple of rooms away. Your inv. imp flys in and delivers your spell component pouch. You now proceed to use all your AOE dead spells with no down-side. Worst case: they eventually kill you, sending you soul back to your own body.

If you want to be a mobile Magic Jar guy away from your body, have the inv. imp carry the gem your soul is going to get sent back to.

(Quasit works the same, and I don't know why I love the imp more)

[Psyren]

I could have sworn that there was an addendum someplace about dread necromancers' vargouilles not getting the kiss ability.

I don't see that anywhere in HoH myself. Not sure about CSco.

[Venger]

You're probably thinking about Complete Scoundrel which states that Vargouilles summoned as familiars do not posses the kiss ability.

that is exactly what I was thinking of, thank you. that makes sense. you sink 7 levels into DN, you deserve the chance to turn someone into a vargouille once in a while as opposed to someone who just took improved familiar


I don't see that anywhere in HoH myself. Not sure about CSco.

it's not in HoH anyplace.


Vargouilles summoned as familiars do not possess the kiss supernatural ability.