Question about half-dragons and familicide [Archive]

Jay R

2012-02-25, 07:39 AM

Kish

2012-02-25, 07:43 AM

Is a half-dragon a blood relation of a dragon and a human?

Not necessarily. A half-dragon is half dragon, half...something else. (Barring a joke about, "Half dragon, other half also dragon.") But a half-dragon can certainly also be half human.

Dragons and humans have something in common: They both can and do breed with everything. Dragons have shapeshifting as an excuse and generally breed with whatever they're breeding with in the form of a member of the same species. Humans? Don't seem to feel the need for an excuse.

Studoku

2012-02-25, 07:45 AM

Half-dragons are usually the offspring of a dragon and another creature. One can only hope that shapeshifting magic was involved.

I'm still not sold on the familicide theory, but it's possible for the Draketooths to be related to dragons.

Shhalahr Windrider

2012-02-25, 07:48 AM

Half dragons are also noticeably draconic. See Gannji, the half-ogre/half-blue dragon, for instance.

Ron Miel

2012-02-25, 08:17 AM

I don't know ... how they are made.

When a mummy human and a daddy dragon love each other very much ...

for the rest google on "how is babby formed"

KillianHawkeye

2012-02-25, 08:54 AM

I'm an old-school player. I've played more OD&D than anything else, and nothing more recent than 2E.

I know that half-dragons exist in modern D&D, but I don't know what they are or how they are made.

Is a half-dragon a blood relation of a dragon and a human? If so, would this be how the familicide spell jumped to a human clan?

In 3rd Edition, Half-Dragon is a creature template which can be applied to almost anything. It represents what you'd get if a dragon mated with creature X. So you can have half-dragon humans, half-dragon centaurs, half-dragon trolls, half-dragon storm giants, etc.

As for the Draketooth clan, they are obviously not half-dragons. However, they could still have a half-dragon in their ancestry. After several generations of mating with humans, the draconic bloodline would be weak enough that the heirs wouldn't be noticeably different from standard humans, although it's likely that they'd be gifted with skill in magic and they may show a propensity for sorcery. We know that Girard Draketooth was a skilled illusionist, but I don't think it's been mentioned whether he gained his skills through study as a wizard or if he came to magic more naturally as a sorcerer.

Ravian

2012-02-25, 09:23 AM

Half dragons are also noticeably draconic. See Gannji, the half-ogre/half-blue dragon, for instance.

Gannji's the lizardfolk, you're thinking of Enor ( lol the auto-correct for Enor is enormous, that could be where the name came from)
He's actually half half-ogre and half-blue dragon in other words:
Grandparents: one human/one ogre and two blue dragons
Parents: one half-ogre and one blue dragon
Enor: the half half-ogre/ half blue dragon

Jay R

2012-02-25, 10:13 AM

As for the Draketooth clan, they are obviously not half-dragons.

I know that. And I'm not even asking if they could be descended from one. V's explanation of the spell was, "Every living creature that directly shares your bloodline now dead. Every living creature that is directly related to any of those creatures is also dead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html)"

So if a human of the Draketooth clan and a Black Dragon had created a half-dragon, then the half dragon would be killed by the first sentence, and all the Draketooths (Draketeeth?) would be dead by the second sentence - even though they are completely human.

Note also that in comic 639 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html), there is a half-dragon half-centaur in the fifth line of dragons, and what looks like a clothed half-human half-dragon in the sixth line, clearly a spellcaster.

Grey Watcher

2012-02-25, 10:15 AM

When a mummy human and a daddy dragon love each other very much ...

Took me a second to parse that as "mommy" and not "dead person preserved and wrapped in bandages", which gave me an entirely different mental picture.

Doxkid

2012-02-25, 11:20 AM

I've always wondered how you handle Half Dragons, when the other half is also dragon.

Do you end up with a...black, half red dragon, for example or just either a red dragon or a black dragon?

Tass

2012-02-25, 11:33 AM

Gannji's the lizardfolk, you're thinking of Enor ( lol the auto-correct for Enor is enormous, that could be where the name came from)
He's actually half half-ogre and half-blue dragon in other words:
Grandparents: one human/one ogre and two blue dragons
Parents: one half-ogre and one blue dragon
Enor: the half half-ogre/ half blue dragon

That is your interpretation. There are many others. Mine is this:

1. Gannji uses the D&D mechanic and calls Enor a half-dragon ogre - that is an ogre with the half dragon template.

2. Enor uses the more down to earth real world mechanic and thinks "one parent is a dragon, one is an ogre - I must be a half-dragon half-ogre"

3. Gannji doesn't care. (It is often the simple characters pointing out inconsistencies and the like in the system, while the more intelligent close their eyes to it).

Ravian

2012-02-25, 12:21 PM

That is your interpretation. There are many others. Mine is this:

1. Gannji uses the D&D mechanic and calls Enor a half-dragon ogre - that is an ogre with the half dragon template.

2. Enor uses the more down to earth real world mechanic and thinks "one parent is a dragon, one is an ogre - I must be a half-dragon half-ogre"

3. Gannji doesn't care. (It is often the simple characters pointing out inconsistencies and the like in the system, while the more intelligent close their eyes to it).

I assumed through the emphasis Enor put on "Half" ogre that he was being specific on his ancestry, thus Gannji's genacologist reference.

Grey Watcher

2012-02-25, 12:30 PM

I thought Enor's ancestry was one of those deliberate ambiguity things: is he (from a mechanics perspective) an ogre with the half-dragon template, a half-ogre with the half-dragon template, or a human with two templates? (My 3.5 is rusty; is there a half-ogre template, or did I just make that up?)

BaronOfHell

2012-02-25, 12:51 PM

jere7my

2012-02-25, 01:17 PM

I'm still not sold on the familicide theory, but it's possible for the Draketooths to be related to dragons.

All 3E D&D sorcerors are suspected to be descended from dragons, which is where their innate magical power comes from. From Wikipedia: "Many sorcerers claim that their magic comes from draconic blood, from some ancestor who was a dragon in human or other form. In the D&D world, this theory has not been confirmed, but people with dragon ancestors seem to be more common than most would think."

"Draketooth" is also a fine name for a half-dragon clan progenitor, if his draconic features included a mouthful of dragon-teeth.

Grey Watcher

2012-02-25, 01:19 PM

If he was human, I don't think Gannji would love him like we've seen.

I really liked the question about how the offspring would look, should the young black dragon had mated with the "nice green dragon girl from the next wood".

Well, unlike Redcloak's very specific hatred of humans, Gannji seems to have more of a mild contempt for mammals in general. And your basic vanilla ogre is a mammal, right?

sr123

2012-02-25, 01:30 PM

All 3E D&D sorcerors are suspected to be descended from dragons

Though if you like Pathfinder, it goes beyond "suspected" and explicitly gives many possible bloodlines (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer#TOC-Bloodline) from which Sorceror magic derives naturally.

I'd like to bump Doxkid's question: how does D&D handle something like half-red-half-black dragons?

Petey7

2012-02-25, 01:59 PM

I'd like to bump Doxkid's question: how does D&D handle something like half-red-half-black dragons?
You have to pick which would be the base dragon and which would be the type used for the half-dragon template. The following is how I see it as working based on my knowledge of the general 3.5 rules.

Type is unchanged. Hit Dice is unchanged. Fly speed and maneuverability is one of those tougher situations, but the general rule is when you have two abilities that would overlap, you go with the best of the two. I would say that since the Half-dragon flying ability only applies to creatures larger than medium, and it looks like all true dragons larger than medium have a fly speed of at least 150 (poor maneuverability) (as opposed to the half dragons 120 (average maneuverability)) I would just go with the true dragons regular flying speed and maneuverability. It says that natural armor improves by +4. Usually natural armor doesn't stack but since it says "improves" I'd say it does in this case. Bite and Claw attacks work exactly as described on the half-dragon entry. The base dragons attack will always do more damage so use those values. It gains a breath weapon in addition to its regular one, even if they are both of the same element. It also gains the immunity listed. Stats increase as listed. Skill points by RAW would increase as described as far as I can tell, but I could see a strong argument against that since it says it "gains skill points as a dragon". CR and level adjustment increase as stated. The alignment would be a judgment call based on the alignments of the dragons making up the half-dragon dragon.

Kish

2012-02-25, 02:10 PM

I am skeptical about whether WotC would sign off on something that amounted to, "And if you breed a gold dragon with a shadow dragon, you get the most powerful dragon who ever lived."

Ravian

2012-02-25, 02:10 PM

Now the only question is how do you determine which parent is the base creature and which is the template...

Petey7

2012-02-25, 02:22 PM

Kish, the CR and level adjustment increase are supposed to account for that. An adult black dragon already has +18 natural armor. An extra +4 wouldn't be that much of an increase. An extra breath attack and immunity would be annoying but can still be handled just fine. Everything else is basically the same.

Ravian, it is one of those things that would be up to the DM. Personally I actually wouldn't use a half-dragon dragon. But if I had to make a rule for it, I would say that the base creature is the same as the mother and the extra stuff comes from the father. What you might call the pokemon method if you are familiar with that games rules for breeding.

Ravian

2012-02-25, 02:43 PM

Ravian, it is one of those things that would be up to the DM. Personally I actually wouldn't use a half-dragon dragon. But if I had to make a rule for it, I would say that the base creature is the same as the mother and the extra stuff comes from the father. What you might call the pokemon method if you are familiar with that games rules for breeding.

The only thing I know about Pokemon breeding unfortunately is that you can breed a skittie with a giant Whale thing, I only hope the whale was the mother...:smalleek:

BaronOfHell

2012-02-25, 03:38 PM

And your basic vanilla ogre is a mammal, right?

I honestly don't know, if ogres are mammals. Though if they are, then I understand your point.

Manga Shoggoth

2012-02-25, 04:11 PM

When a mummy human and a daddy dragon love each other very much ...

for the rest google on "how is babby formed"

If it is as good as The Goodies version, I'm sold...

SoC175

2012-02-25, 04:22 PM

Gannji's the lizardfolk, you're thinking of Enor ( lol the auto-correct for Enor is enormous, that could be where the name came from)
He's actually half half-ogre and half-blue dragon in other words:
Grandparents: one human/one ogre and two blue dragons
Parents: one half-ogre and one blue dragon
Enor: the half half-ogre/ half blue dragon
No, he's half-ogre/half-dragon since due to being a half-dragon his other part is also only half.

Calling him ogre/half-dragon makes no sense since you are just arbitrarily deciding to count one half full and the other half only half.

Enor is half-ogre/half-dragon meaning that his parents are one ogre and one dragon.

Just like a human/half-dragon is actually a half-human/half-dragon, meaning that his parents are one human and one dragon.

Enor insisting on half-ogre was highlighting the fact that it's completly nonsense to name the non-dragon-species full while naming the dragon part as half

Tricia

2012-02-25, 05:25 PM

I've always wondered how you handle Half Dragons, when the other half is also dragon.

Do you end up with a...black, half red dragon, for example or just either a red dragon or a black dragon?I ran a campaign (somewhat) based on this idea once. I basically just treated it as a dragon, except with an extra immunity and an option for another breath attack. I may have made a couple other changes, I'm not sure...it's been a while. But I basically just made a new dragon rather than using a template or anything.

But then again, I also decided that the offspring of a Red and White dragon was a Pink Dragon, so...

Ravian

2012-02-25, 06:26 PM

But then again, I also decided that the offspring of a Red and White dragon was a Pink Dragon, so...

Did it breath bubblegum or candy hearts?

NerfTW

2012-02-25, 07:15 PM

I honestly don't know, if ogres are mammals. Though if they are, then I understand your point.

They're mammals. They have hair, mammary glands (breasts), and give birth to live young. (not eggs)

dps

2012-02-25, 07:21 PM

Dragons and humans have something in common: They both can and do breed with everything. Dragons have shapeshifting as an excuse and generally breed with whatever they're breeding with in the form of a member of the same species. Humans? Don't seem to feel the need for an excuse.

Jack Harkness is human. That probably explains it.

Thump

2012-02-25, 07:29 PM

The familicide would have affected anyone in the ABD's family, immediate or not. Basically, her parents/children, her husband's parents/children, going up and down the family lines, crossing into other families if they're related by any means other than by species. That's why it killed so many dragons.

Now, if Orrin Draketooth has any relations to that family, or Girard having relations....

that would be why they all simultaneously died.

or

ILLUSION.

ti'esar

2012-02-25, 07:35 PM

For the record, there seem to be at least three half-dragons being hit by Familicide in 639: the half-centaur, the caster in row 5, and the armored guy in row 3.

Lord Torath

2012-02-25, 09:27 PM

Jack Harkness is human. That probably explains it.
That's Captain Jack Harkness.

"I think Jack would like this dance."

"I'm sure he would. But the question is with whom?"
(Roughly paraphrased from "The Doctor Dances")

BaronOfHell

2012-02-26, 08:48 AM

They're mammals. They have hair, mammary glands (breasts), and give birth to live young. (not eggs)

Okay. Thank you. :smallsmile:

Particle_Man

2012-02-26, 10:34 PM

In 3rd Edition, Half-Dragon is a creature template which can be applied to almost anything. It represents what you'd get if a dragon mated with creature X. So you can have half-dragon humans, half-dragon centaurs, half-dragon trolls, half-dragon storm giants, etc.

Heck, in 3.x you can have half-dragon treants and half-dragon gelatinous cubes!

Red XIV

2012-02-26, 10:52 PM

"Draketooth" is also a fine name for a half-dragon clan progenitor, if his draconic features included a mouthful of dragon-teeth.
However, "drake" is not simply a synonym for "dragon" in D&D. Drakes are a type of lesser dragons. As in, definitely not chromatic.

Particle_Man

2012-02-27, 01:43 AM

Yeah I am thinking this is a different familicide, myself. Or a Girard-level illusion.

Nightmarenny

2012-02-27, 02:08 AM

Yeah I am thinking this is a different familicide, myself. Or a Girard-level illusion.

Narratively I'd put the chances of it being a different Familicide somewhere around .01%.

Drakes might technically be separate from Chromatic's but they can't breed with everything like Dragons and as a descriptor its probably close enough is good enough.

What I'm trying to say is that if Girard has anything weird in his backstory I'd put my money on it being a Black Dragon.

But for now I'm assuming Illusion. The only reason I consider familicide a possibility is because now it feels like serious Chekhov gun.

jere7my

2012-02-27, 02:10 AM

However, "drake" is not simply a synonym for "dragon" in D&D. Drakes are a type of lesser dragons. As in, definitely not chromatic.

That's a very low bar to clear. Naming conventions follow the rules of poetry and sonority, not the SRD.

Dervag

2012-02-27, 02:12 AM

Narratively I'd put the chances of it being a different Familicide somewhere around .01%.

Drakes might technically be separate from Chromatic's but they can't breed with everything like Dragons and as a descriptor its probably close enough is good enough.

What I'm trying to say is that if Girard has anything weird in his backstory I'd put my money on it being a Black Dragon.

But for now I'm assuming Illusion. The only reason I consider familicide a possibility is because now it feels like serious Chekhov gun.The problem is that it's a Chekhov's gun that's already been used to kill hundreds of dragons- it was in some ways the climax of the "V gets superpowers" arc, because it represents just how incredibly evil V's amorality could make him when he had something to be angry about. It really drives home the realization that V's actions are not fundamentally all that rational when he's hopped up on all this power. And I think the fact that he did it is one of the things that makes him so shaken about the whole affair, at least to a limited extent.

Nightmarenny

2012-02-27, 02:20 AM

The problem is that it's a Chekhov's gun that's already been used to kill hundreds of dragons- it was in some ways the climax of the "V gets superpowers" arc, because it represents just how incredibly evil V's amorality could make him when he had something to be angry about. It really drives home the realization that V's actions are not fundamentally all that rational when he's hopped up on all this power. And I think the fact that he did it is one of the things that makes him so shaken about the whole affair, at least to a limited extent.

It killed hundreds of dragons and hasn't personally effected the cast yet. It's still hanging on the shelf.

Nightmarenny

2012-02-27, 02:22 AM

Also it isn't a "Chekhov gun" if its something that is introduced and immediately used.

That's just, like, a plot point.

NinjaStylerobot

2012-02-27, 03:32 AM

By bow chika bow wow.

aldeayeah

2012-02-27, 07:36 AM

I was skeptical about this theory, but then I noticed:

It was lunchtime in the Western Continent when V casted Familicide. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html)

Just a coincidence?

DUN DUN DUNNN

blazingshadow

2012-02-27, 09:50 AM

Calling him ogre/half-dragon makes no sense since you are just arbitrarily deciding to count one half full and the other half only half.
how would you call a half dragon with a half elf parent?

Cronos988

2012-02-27, 10:31 AM

how would you call a half dragon with a half elf parent?

A half-dragon half-half-elf? I always took that sentence to mean that Enor simply does not understand the naming convention, but its not like it matters...

We don't really know how familicide defines being related, but it seems that if there is some black dragon in Girard's family anywhere, familicide would have killed him (he is probably long since dead anyways, considering that we are 3 Generations after the Crayons of time).

I would have expected some foreshadowing of that though. It seems like familicide was used up for Vs arc, it seems odd to pull it back up now.

martianmister

2012-02-27, 11:11 AM

how would you call a half dragon with a half elf parent?

Half-Dragon with human/elf background.

Petey7

2012-02-27, 11:33 AM

Typically, if you're less than half, then that part of your heritage does not matter game mechanic wise, but half-dragon half elf would be perfectly acceptable by RAW since it is listed as a seperate base race instead of a template. You can't be a half-dragon half-celestial half-fiend halfling for example. You'd just be a halfling with a colorful background.

Gorm_the_DBA

2012-02-27, 12:00 PM

hamishspence

2012-02-27, 01:06 PM

You can't be a half-dragon half-celestial half-fiend halfling for example. You'd just be a halfling with a colorful background.

You can in fact apply multiple templates to one race.

SaintRidley

2012-02-27, 01:15 PM

You can in fact apply multiple templates to one race.

I think it was more of a "nobody would ever call it that" sort of thing than a mechanical impossibility thing, given the "halfling with a colorful background" part implies that Petey knows they can all be applied at once. Not everything has to be taken completely literally. Especially

hamishspence

2012-02-27, 01:19 PM

Good point.

In the Discworld novel Eric, a demonic deity does get described in a way that lists all the "halfs".

Quezovercoatl is described as "half-man, half-chicken, half-jaguar, half-serpent, half-scorpion and half-mad", making a total of three homicidal maniacs.

pasadenajones

2012-02-27, 01:28 PM

hamishspence

2012-02-27, 01:30 PM

Famlicide effects those in the targets bloodline. A persons bloodline is their decendants, not their ancestors. You are, for example in your parents bloodline, they are not in yours. Unless Hereta was a maternal sort, casting the spell on herself would do very little. The spell sort of ran wild due to the fact that V cast it on a dragon that may well have been thousands of years old and thus had an extreemly broad bloodline. Against humans, the spell wouldn't be all that effective.

She states that the young adult dragon was her "only child" though.

Unless she was lying about that, and V was wrong when V described the spell- it wouldn't just affect her offspring.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html

"Anything that directly shares your bloodline is dead. Anything directly related to those creatures is dead. Anyone who could possibly make a claim to be part of your family is gone."

pasadenajones

2012-02-27, 01:38 PM

Perhaps her only living one, or she may not be counting offspring that have long since grown to adulthood.

hamishspence

2012-02-27, 01:44 PM

It's possible that "my only child"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html

misses out "grown up children" but seems doubtful in this context.

Still raises the question as to how V can estimate the spell to have wiped out a quarter of the black dragon species.

Bavarian itP

2012-02-27, 01:52 PM

Famlicide effects those in the targets bloodline. A persons bloodline is their decendants, not their ancestors. You are, for example in your parents bloodline, they are not in yours. Unless Hereta was a maternal sort, casting the spell on herself would do very little. The spell sort of ran wild due to the fact that V cast it on a dragon that may well have been thousands of years old and thus had an extreemly broad bloodline. Against humans, the spell wouldn't be all that effective.

Not buying it.

:vaarsuvius: "Anyone who could possibly make a claim to be part of your family is gone now".

Either V was lying, or the in-comic definition of "bloodline" is broader than yours. I'm leaning to the second.

pasadenajones

2012-02-27, 01:53 PM

Not, sure I havnt played DnD in decades. But if I remember correct ancient dragons are at least 1200 years old. It just seems like 1200 years is alot of time to sow ones oats.

pasadenajones

2012-02-27, 01:57 PM

jere7my

2012-02-27, 02:32 PM

Perhaps her only living one, or she may not be counting offspring that have long since grown to adulthood.

You think she is the progenitor of 1/4 of the black dragons in the world? Despite her claim that she only had one child?

Bavarian itP

2012-02-27, 04:07 PM

Not buying it.

"Anyone who could possibly make a claim to be part of your family is gone now".

You make my point for me. The destructive power of the Famlicide spell was greatly exagerated upon the dragons because the bloodline of a dragon is so old. The family so intetrmarried or intermated in the dragons case.

The spell would have extreemly destructive effects upon old bloodlines like dragons or elves. Not nearly so much on short lived races like humans.

No, I don't made your point for you, Familicide doesn't make any sense as a means to prevent revenge if it doesn't kill the parents of the victim.

Yes, the destructive power of the Famlicide (sic!) spell was greatly exagerated (sic!) upon the dragons, but not b/c of their old bloodline, but b/c of their low reproduction rate. This was explicitly stated in comic 640 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html), which I strongly advise you to read carefully (and without letting your existing prejudices hamper your judgement and understanding) before trying to discuss further about this complex.

psijac

2012-02-27, 04:31 PM

Obviously Girard was the adventurer that killed ABD's mate and worn his skin for armor. Fratricide accidentally zapped him and figured "what the hell, why not?" And then killed off the rest of his clan.

Kish

2012-02-27, 06:38 PM

Famlicide effects those in the targets bloodline. A persons bloodline is their decendants, not their ancestors.
This is a very strange definition of "bloodline." I wonder where you find support for it.

Nightmarenny

2012-02-27, 08:41 PM

Uh no. It's pretty clear that the spell went both ways.

Petey7

2012-02-27, 09:21 PM

I think it was more of a "nobody would ever call it that" sort of thing than a mechanical impossibility thing, given the "halfling with a colorful background" part implies that Petey knows they can all be applied at once. Not everything has to be taken completely literally. Especially

Sort of right. I know that multiple templates can be applied, but when it comes to cross-breed templates, most people I play with assume that you can't stack half-breed templates. It appears that I became so used to this houserule, that it never occured to me to see if it was an actual rule or not, until now that is. Typically the way my friends and I do it is if someone wants to be a half-dragon half-celestial human, they can either be a half-dragon aasimar or a half-celestial dragon-descended human.

For those that don't know, a dragon-descended (Races of the Dragon, pg. 74) is someone who is less than half-dragon but still has enough draconic blood for it to have an effect. They get lesser bonuses than half-dragons and have a smaller level adjustment.

ti'esar

2012-02-27, 09:33 PM

So if the Familicide theory is correct, would that make the Draketooths dragon-descended?

Petey7

2012-02-27, 10:50 PM

So if the Familicide theory is correct, would that make the Draketooths dragon-descended?

Maybe. The book the template appears in came out in January 2006 and the strip Girard was introduced in came out in early to mid 2006, so I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible. The thing is, as far as I know, nothing from the book has been used so far. Rich might not even know the template exist. I don't think it is all that popular either. I've never seen it actually used. I only know it exist because a former DM pointed it out to our group when a new player wanted to be a half-dragon half-celestial human. Of course, why someone wanted a +8 level adjustment when we were level 10 is beyond me.

So basically it comes down to if they exist in OotS.

EDIT: I was, once again, mistaken. I thought Girard was introduced in the colors of time. He was actually introduced in strip 196. So if some or all of the Draketooths are dragon descendants, it was decided after Girard was created.

Nightmarenny

2012-02-27, 11:03 PM

So if the Familicide theory is correct, would that make the Draketooths dragon-descended?

Not necessarily. Technically all or most Sorcerers are supposed to be decedent from dragons(ignoring the silly little ambiguousness that is really pointless on WotC's end) therefore Girard could be far enough away from his Dragon ancestor that he doesn't show any other signs of being a Dragon. Like most Sorcerers.