The bordering nation of Reptilia

[Purgatorius]

This is a new theory about what is going on in Girard's pyramid and between the Empire of Blood and Reptilia. It has several unknown factors. (Unlike the Familicide theory, "Draketooth related to dragons" theory or the "Illusion that leads people to the place it's supposed to hide" theory. ;-) )

We know that the ambassador Gourntank from the neighbouring nation Reptilia wanted to speak privately with the empress (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html) about something. That is one of the recent loose threads in the story. Perhaps now is time for it to be resolved.

My sketchy theory is that
1) the Windy Canyon is on the border between Empire of Blood and Reptilia. Map (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html). We can see that there are mountains and a river at the border, which are both signs of a canyon.
2) The government of Reptilia has found out about Draketooth's dungeon, and Gourntank wants to discuss it with the Empress. The matter could be sensitive because the dungeon is perhaps located on Empire of Blood territory, but could threaten Reptilia, or the other way around.
3) Reptilian agents has already made some moves in the Empire of Blood. We know that Gourntank knows Penelope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html) thought she had some connection to Windy Canyon. For some reason they thought she was a threat in the sensitive situation, and had her killed.
4) Reptilia is a military state. This is based on their ambassador wearing a military uniform.
5) Agents in Reptilia has killed the Draketooth clan. The main reason for believing this is that it would fit well in the story. Reptilia is a narrative agent that we know has something going on, and now would be a suitable time to reveal what it is. We don't know anything about their in-story motives to do it, but perhaps a military state don't want a powerful independent force like the Draketooths loose in their country.

That's about it. Please point out or fill in the holes!
Or how do you think Reptilia fits in the picture?

[t209]

This is a new theory about what is going on in Girard's pyramid and between the Empire of Blood and Reptilia. It has several unknown factors. (Unlike the Familicide theory, "Draketooth related to dragons" theory or the "Illusion that leads people to the place it's supposed to hide" theory. ;-) )

We know that the ambassador Gourntank from the neighbouring nation Reptilia wanted to speak privately with the empress (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html) about something. That is one of the recent loose threads in the story. Perhaps now is time for it to be resolved.

My sketchy theory is that
1) the Windy Canyon is on the border between Empire of Blood and Reptilia. Map (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html). We can see that there are mountains and a river at the border, which are both signs of a canyon.
2) The government of Reptilia has found out about Draketooth's dungeon, and Gourntank wants to discuss it with the Empress. The matter could be sensitive because the dungeon is perhaps located on Empire of Blood territory, but could threaten Reptilia, or the other way around.
3) Reptilian agents has already made some moves in the Empire of Blood. We know that Gourntank knows Penelope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html) thought she had some connection to Windy Canyon. For some reason they thought she was a threat in the sensitive situation, and had her killed.
4) Reptilia is a military state. This is based on their ambassador wearing a military uniform.
5) Agents in Reptilia has killed the Draketooth clan. The main reason for believing this is that it would fit well in the story. Reptilia is a narrative agent that we know has something going on, and now would be a suitable time to reveal what it is. We don't know anything about their in-story motives to do it, but perhaps a military state don't want a powerful independent force like the Draketooths loose in their country.

That's about it. Please point out or fill in the holes!
Or how do you think Reptilia fits in the picture?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html
They all died just sitting there. No Struggle, No Knife Wound, and No Burns.

[Madara]

A wizard scy'd and die'd? Maybe debuffed them to con 0? Or a warlock with the swarm, using a hivemind of those locus...

[Purgatorius]

They all died just sitting there. No Struggle, No Knife Wound, and No Burns.

Yes, but the spell Horrid Wilting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/horridWilting.htm) is a suggestion for what could have done it.

Anyhow, I am also curious about other ideas about how the nation Reptilia and ambassador Gourntank fits in the story.

[Ravian]

I never really gave him much thought, but I suppose it is a possibility. Unlikely though, since it would be odd to just stick in another group to stick in this power play

[Gift Jeraff]

I know people are probably tired of reading about Familicide, but the speculation I've had for a while is that he wants to tell the Empress about a recent genocidal attack on chromatic dragons.

[t209]

Yes, but the spell Horrid Wilting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/horridWilting.htm) is a suggestion for what could have done it.

Anyhow, I am also curious about other ideas about how the nation Reptilia and ambassador Gourntank fits in the story.

No Neck self strangulation either (when people suffers, they hold their necks).

[Draconi Redfir]

Reptilians could have found where the draketooths were getting their food and laced it all with a fast-acting poison.

That’s the first thing i thought when i saw the panel anyways, food poisoning.

[BaronOfHell]

Regarding food. How come the draketooth, with the expected levels of paranoia, couln't simply have conjured the food themselves? Heck if they were afraid of a single member going against the whole clan, they could let several people conjuring food only for their own randomly reselected group.


the speculation I've had for a while is that he wants to tell the Empress about a recent genocidal attack on chromatic dragons.
Nice thought!

[Petey7]

Yes, but the spell Horrid Wilting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/horridWilting.htm) is a suggestion for what could have done it.

Anyhow, I am also curious about other ideas about how the nation Reptilia and ambassador Gourntank fits in the story.
I have some trouble seeing it as Horrid Wilting, but I suppose it could work as well as any other theory, espscially since it is long range, so them not seeing the caster is not all that surprising.

Gourntank and the nation Reptilia are probably just fluff added to flush the world out a bit. Look at the lizardfolk that revived the Oracle and their boss. People were convinced that they would reappear later in story until the Giant said "details are world-building, not foreshadowing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11671842&postcount=99)."

Reptilians could have found where the draketooths were getting their food and laced it all with a fast-acting poison.

That’s the first thing i thought when i saw the panel anyways, food poisoning.

Real world, no poison is instantaneous. In DnD you take initial damage followed by addition damage 1 minute later. Poison damage, like everything else, is variable, damage must be rolled, and those being poisoned get a fort save. Even if we ignore those rules and say they take max damage instantaneously, it does not explain that some people were clearly still walking to the table and that everyone died. Surely people dropping dead when taking a bite of the food would make you second guess taking that first bite.

Gift Jereff, I forgot to quote your post, but I do like the idea. Even if the Reptillians are just fluff that probably won't influence the story much, Gourntank had to be there for a reason. In my opinion either they were being attacked like the Free City of Doom, or Gourntank was there to inform her of the attack on chromatic dragons are the best ideas in my opinion.

[Draconi Redfir]

Regarding food. How come the draketooth, with the expected levels of paranoia, couln't simply have conjured the food themselves?

Maybe the oots setting doesn't use the "magic can solve every problem no matter what" rules?

Or perhaps no one was the right class/high enough level to do so?

Maybe real food tastes better?

Etc?


Real world, no poison is instantaneous. In DnD you take initial damage followed by addition damage 1 minute later. Poison damage, like everything else, is variable, damage must be rolled, and those being poisoned get a fort save. Even if we ignore those rules and say they take max damage instantaneously, it does not explain that some people were clearly still walking to the table and that everyone died. Surely people dropping dead when taking a bite of the food would make you second guess taking that first bite.

Gift Jereff, I forgot to quote your post, but I do like the idea. Even if the Reptillians are just fluff that probably won't influence the story much, Gourntank had to be there for a reason. In my opinion either they were being attacked like the Free City of Doom, or Gourntank was there to inform her of the attack on chromatic dragons are the best ideas in my opinion.

Again the OOTS verse is not run entirely on D&D rules, the poision could have been working it's magic long before anyone even noticed. And who's to say the one guy we saw who looked like he was walking to a table wasn't the last in line and decided to snack on something while he walked?

Heck if the poision was strong enough everyone would only need to take one bite to seal their own doom, if it took long enough to work, lunch would be half over before the first person fell down.

[BaronOfHell]

Maybe the oots setting doesn't use the "magic can solve every problem no matter what" rules?

Or perhaps no one was the right class/high enough level to do so?

Maybe real food tastes better?

Etc?


Surely there may be a lot of reasonable explanations why they would need to get food from the outside. However until any information that goes to either side, I think it's a bit much to conclude either. However, if one thing were to be concluded from the current information, I'd like to point out that:

In http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html they say with level 3 spells, food shortage would be easy solveable. So it's at least one type of problem which is solveable by magic. No reason to require every problem to be solveable, when the topic in this regard is the food.

Even without the right class/levels, scrolls could be bought, unlike food, I imagine they'll last forever, so they can have those in big supply without need for much room. On the other hand, it'd maybe be even safer to grow their own food as much as possible. Though with a desert landscape, I'm not certain how feasible it'd be.

Finally, regarding taste. It fits horribly with the paranoia idea to consider taste important enough to go through the risk of exposure, in my opinion. Not that I'd like to make the same fallacy that made people think V had forced YY to trip the traps, but unlike YY, I actually consider Girard to be one who has to be smart about these things.

[Petey7]

Wait...What? Draconi Redfir, you made the exact opposite argument you made earlier. Before you argued that the poison could have been fast acting, not you are arguing that it was slow acting. If change your argument constantly, of course I can't refute it, and I'm not going to continue.


I will say, Create Food and Water is a core spell, and OotS does use 3.5 rules for magic and combat. Even though the Giant has said he does not apply the rules consistently, he has always said he uses them for magic and class abilities.

[Purgatorius]

Gourntank and the nation Reptilia are probably just fluff added to flush the world out a bit. Look at the lizardfolk that revived the Oracle and their boss. People were convinced that they would reappear later in story until the Giant said "details are world-building, not foreshadowing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11671842&postcount=99)."

My impression was that Gourntank was too eager to speak with the empress for it to be just fluff. It seemed more like some kind of Chechov's gun to me.


… but the speculation I've had for a while is that he wants to tell the Empress about a recent genocidal attack on chromatic dragons.

Which would also explain why he wants to speak to the empress directly, rather than through her human general.
On the other hand, why not go through the high priest, who is a lizard? When the empress seems difficult to get a meeting with?

[Draconi Redfir]

Finally, regarding taste. It fits horribly with the paranoia idea to consider taste important enough to go through the risk of exposure, in my opinion. Not that I'd like to make the same fallacy that made people think V had forced YY to trip the traps, but unlike YY, I actually consider Girard to be one who has to be smart about these things.

All we know for sure is that Girad himself was parinoid, it's easilly possible that the rest of the family is simply living the life that was given to them and guarding the gate. Just because your great-grandfather was a parinoid hack who only ate food he summoned himself doesn't mean you need to be.


Wait...What? Draconi Redfir, you made the exact opposite argument you made earlier. Before you argued that the poison could have been fast acting, not you are arguing that it was slow acting. If change your argument constantly, of course I can't refute it, and I'm not going to continue.

Fast enough to kill people while they are in the middle of a meal, slow enough to not kill anyone until after they have all taken a bite.

I would guess... ten to twenty minnutes to kill? assuming the first people to get their food had waited until they reached a table, and the last people to get it had taken a few bites as they walked.

[BaronOfHell]

it's easilly possible that the rest of the family is simply living the life that was given to them and guarding the gate. Just because your great-grandfather was a parinoid hack who only ate food he summoned himself doesn't mean you need to be.
Indeed. In which case we won't be able to conclude towards either side.

[ti'esar]

I personally always was surprised by people assuming Gourntonk was at all relevant - I thought he and Reptilia were just meant as "background color".

[Unisus]

Fast enough to kill people while they are in the middle of a meal, slow enough to not kill anyone until after they have all taken a bite.

I would guess... ten to twenty minnutes to kill? assuming the first people to get their food had waited until they reached a table, and the last people to get it had taken a few bites as they walked.

So, if you were enjoying a meal and suddenly the first persons to have had theirs begin to drop dead, you would just sit there and finish eating, without any sign of upcoming panic? You must be really stoic then.

No, seriously, poison does not fit in the picture, as all seemed to die at the same time without anyone recognizing something is wrong.

[Purgatorius]

I personally always was surprised by people assuming Gourntonk was at all relevant - I thought he and Reptilia were just meant as "background color".

I understand what you mean, but he has asked for the empress twice, and says he has "sensitive information". I think that is a little too colourful background :smallsmile: .

[Lord Torath]

I will say, Create Food and Water is a core spell, and OotS does use 3.5 rules for magic and combat. Even though the Giant has said he does not apply the rules consistently, he has always said he uses them for magic and class abilities.
It's a third level Clerical spell. Considering Girard's remarks about Barnyard Gods (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html), I rather doubt he had any divine casters in his clan.

(Okay, it's a clerical spell in D&D, AD&D, and 2E AD&D. Not sure about 3/3.5/4E D&D)

[Petey7]

It's a third level Clerical spell. Considering Girard's remarks about Barnyard Gods (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html), I rather doubt he had any divine casters in his clan.

(Okay, it's a clerical spell in D&D, AD&D, and 2E AD&D. Not sure about 3/3.5/4E D&D)

I'm sorry. What is your point? Yes it is a third level cleric spell. It is also a conjuration spell and more specifically a creation spell.

My point was that it is in the Player's Handbook, making it a core spell. Since you said you don't know so much about 3/3.5, I'll add, just in case, that the Player's Handbook has a subtitle, Core Rulebook I. The DMG is Core Rulebook II, and the Monster Manual is Core Rulebook III. When a distinction needs to be made, anything within those books is often called core, anything in another WOTC book is called supplement/supplemental, and anything in another book is called 3rd party. For example, if you were making a druid and wanted to ask online for help you could say something like "I need help picking out feats for my elf druid. Core only." And everyone would know you meant that only feats in the Player's Handbook were allowed. The reason I mention that it is a core spell is that whether or not it is allowed in the OotS-verse is not debatable. Its in the Core Rulebooks so it is assumed to be in.

[Ravian]

What he means is that it's a divine spell and Girard so far seems to have little positive opinion towards the gods. That was part of the point that the order would search towns for someone buying food in bulk, V commented that Girard didn't seem the type to rely on clerics for food.

[Petey7]

What he means is that it's a divine spell and Girard so far seems to have little positive opinion towards the gods. That was part of the point that the order would search towns for someone buying food in bulk, V commented that Girard didn't seem the type to rely on clerics for food.

Well, now I feel like a jack***. The emphasis on the word "cleric" made me thank that he was saying my use of the word "core" was wrong. My apologies Lord Torath for being a **** earlier.


Also, I did some reading and the food created through Create Food and Water is specifically stated to be rather bland tasting, proving Draconi right on one point at least.

[Gilphon]

As I particular mark against poisoning, check out that guy by the door- he hadn't even starting eating yet, he just dropped his tray and dropped dead.

[Draconi Redfir]

So, if you were enjoying a meal and suddenly the first persons to have had theirs begin to drop dead, you would just sit there and finish eating, without any sign of upcoming panic? You must be really stoic then.

No, seriously, poison does not fit in the picture, as all seemed to die at the same time without anyone recognizing something is wrong.

Who says they weren't panicking? that mother seems to be reaching out for the little girl. any other signs of panic (i.e. self-induced vomit) could have been eaten away by scarabs already.


Or idk, maybe some kind of special potion that effected everyone at the exact same time after a set amount of time had passed. idk. Still looks like food poisoning to me, so I’m just going that assume that's what it is until proven otherwise.

[thereaper]

Let me just put on my detective hat...

I see no motive, and both method and opportunity (how'd they get past the traps and illusions? Or even find out about the place, for that matter?) require quite a stretch of the imagination to explain.

Both the familicide and illusion hypotheses are far more likely. This makes about as much sense as the ritual suicide idea (that is, pretty much none).

[SGNenets]

To those saying that the Draketooths likely magically produces all their food, read strip # 698, where the Order speculates that they likely would NOT do that and actually get supply from the outside.

Also, I agree that Gourntank's need to speak with the Empress would not have been shown if it wasnt going to come into the story later somehow. If he was there just for world-building, we could simply have been told who he was, and end it there. There was no need to show him asking to talk to the Empress twice, in private for the second time no less, unless it was something relevant to the story.

And the comparison with the spellcasting lizardmen that ressurected the Oracle does not work here, as their narrative purpose was to ressurect the Oracle, and since it is now done they really don't need to show up ever again. Gourntank's business with the Empress, however, is yet unresolved for us readers and thus must come up later one way or another.

And no, I do not believe he wants to tell the Empress that there was a recent mass killing of Chromatic Dragons either, unless he also knew that the culprit was an elf/Vaarsuvius, as it really doesn't matter to the story at all whether the Empress and a random reptile nation knows about Familicide if they don't ever do anything story related with it.

Of course, this does not neccesarily mean that this thread's theory is likely in particular, but I must say I like it better than the Familicide idea, which I just don't feel is right for one reason or another.

[ti'esar]

I still think people are assuming that Rich puts a higher value on Conservation of Detail then he really does. Gourntonk has a greater chance of being relevant then the Oracle's buddies ever did, but honestly if he wasn't meant to serve any purpose beyond background color - and possibly a red herring for "Polozius" - I think he would have had attention drawn to him in the comic. I suspect we've reached the point in OOTS where more Chekov's guns are being fired then placed on the stage.