Iajutsu Focus RAW-pedantry-silliness?

[shadow_archmagi]

"If you make an attack immediately after drawing a melee weapon you can deal extra damage"



Is this a conversation we've had before? I feel like it must be. It's too silly to pass up, but it looks to me like Iajutsu focus can be applied to any attack, as long as you drew a melee weapon beforehand.

So, for example, you could pull out a knife and then shoot a crossbow at your opponent and call yourself a samurai. Is this correct?

The Halfling Rogue class caught me eye, giving its bonus to Sneak Attack on ranged attacks and I thought I might try flinging things at the enemy. Perhaps some kind of food-based weaponry, because, you know, halflings. Dealing sneak attack and focus damage with vials of acid maybe?

[deuxhero]

Don't even need to draw the melee weapon, the crossbow is an (improvised) melee weapon.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"If you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon, you can deal extra damage, based on the result of an Iaijutsu Focus check."

Yes, RAW you can quick-draw a dagger, fire a crossbow, drop the dagger, rapid reload, quick-draw another dagger, fire the crossbow, etc. and get IF damage to your crossbow shots. Your target still needs to be flat-footed for it to work.

RAI, you get IF damage because you draw the weapon and attack with it in a single motion, so you must attack with the weapon you've just drawn for IF to apply.

[FMArthur]

Most throwing weapons are just melee weapons that can be thrown, anyway.

[mikau013]

So how would this work with fireball?

[georgie_leech]

So how would this work with fireball?

It doesn't, as a Fireball isn't considered an attack. For it to be an attack, a d20 must be rolled.

[Jack Zander]

It does work with rays though.

[Necroticplague]

It doesn't, as a Fireball isn't considered an attack. For it to be an attack, a d20 must be rolled.

To be slightly more accurate, to be an attack, their must be an attack roll. Thus grapple checks to damage aren't attacks, and neither are most spells (although all touch spells, rays and some others are attacks).

[deuxhero]

Now with Rays or Finger spells...

edit: Triple STP ninja!

[hex0]

Is this addressed in the 3.5 update for OA?

[shadow_archmagi]

Is this addressed in the 3.5 update for OA?

I wasn't aware there *was* one! I'm pretty sure OA was never updated, so everything in it is just left as is.


Thus grapple checks to damage aren't attacks

While I hadn't fully considered this possibility until you mentioned it, the image of someone suddenly pulling his hands out of his pockets so as to deal massive damage is wonderful and I'm really sad now that it can't come true.

It'd be the closest thing 3.5 has to KAH LEE MAAH


Hang on a tic- Don't you technically make a touch attack when starting a grapple?



RAI, you get IF damage because you draw the weapon and attack with it in a single motion, so you must attack with the weapon you've just drawn for IF to apply.

True, which is why I labelled it silly and pedantic. No sane DM would allow it (Although if you really wanted to argue, you might point out that being able to stab four times as hard because the knife was in my pocket doesn't really make any sense either)

[Cog]

I wasn't aware there *was* one! I'm pretty sure OA was never updated, so everything in it is just left as is.
It's in one of the Dragon issues.

Is this addressed in the 3.5 update for OA?
The only skill updates for OA pertain to the knowledges; iaijutsu isn't addressed.

[Coidzor]

So that means that Iajutsu Focus works real nice with Strikes then, I imagine.

But OA was updated in a dragon magazine issue, and there were epic progressions supplied online IIRC from the guide to free online D&D materials over at BG.

edit: Triple STP ninja!

Oh 12 gods, why are there STPs here!? :smalleek: Oh, wait, no, that's SCPs, sorry... :smallsigh:

[Lonely Tylenol]

True, which is why I labelled it silly and pedantic. No sane DM would allow it (Although if you really wanted to argue, you might point out that being able to stab four times as hard because the knife was in my pocket doesn't really make any sense either)

:smallfrown:

Good-bye, Sneak Attack.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The Iajutsu focus skills is based in RL sword technique known as Battojutsu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batt%C5%8Djutsu) so while it might not make sense for a dagger, a sword out of it's sheathe do makes sense (which incidentally might be the actual RAI, to be only used with swords)

[mikau013]

While I hadn't fully considered this possibility until you mentioned it, the image of someone suddenly pulling his hands out of his pockets so as to deal massive damage is wonderful and I'm really sad now that it can't come true.

It'd be the closest thing 3.5 has to KAH LEE MAAH


What about evil clerics with spont. inflict spells?

And that spell from spc I think that lets you dual wield touch spells

[Necroticplague]

Hang on a tic- Don't you technically make a touch attack when starting a grapple?

True, and you could apply IF to that, but that wasn't what I was talking about. I was referring to this:

Damage Your Opponent

While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.

[hex0]

True, and you could apply IF to that, but that wasn't what I was talking about. I was referring to this:

Though if you are a Tashalatora Monk with Aerenit Focus for Iajutsu Focus.... :smallamused:

[Coidzor]

Aereni Focus ( Player's guide to Eberron, p. 20). It's like a better version of skill focus.

[shadow_archmagi]

True, and you could apply IF to that, but that wasn't what I was talking about. I was referring to this:

Oh, I know the distinction- I was just pointing out that there was a point in the grapple where you *could* deal damage.


What about evil clerics with spont. inflict spells?

And that spell from spc I think that lets you dual wield touch spells

I guess you're right. Inflict Wounds Iajutsu Touch would probably be the best Kalimah.

[Mystify]

I find the mental image of a guy drawing a huge sword then using an unarmed strike to get the damage boost hilarious.

[hex0]

I find the mental image of a guy drawing a huge sword then using an unarmed strike to get the damage boost hilarious.

I mean, IF is supposed to be a sort of 'sneak attack'. You catch your opponent unawares by drawing a weapon and they take damage from a well placed hit.

[Mystify]

I mean, IF is supposed to be a sort of 'sneak attack'. You catch your opponent unawares by drawing a weapon and they take damage from a well placed hit.
Yeah, and I would enforce that it has to be the weapon you draw if I allowed it in any campaign I ran. I just find the implications if you don't enforce that restriction to be humorous.
Though in the case of drawing a sword then punching someone, you can argue that its kinda like a feint. You draw a sword, so they are not expecting a punch.

[Curmudgeon]

I wasn't aware there *was* one! I'm pretty sure OA was never updated, so everything in it is just left as is.
No, there were substantial changes. First, there's an official Oriental Adventures Errata file you can download here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060531a); those are the 3.0 changes in 4 double-column pages. Next, Dragon # 318 provides the 3.5 update on pages 32-48. You'll need to read through and apply both of those before you can bring any Oriental Adventures materials into a 3.5 game.

There's just one change to Iaijutsu Focus, involving inanimate objects.

[hex0]

There's just one change to Iaijutsu Focus, involving inanimate objects.

:smallconfused: That's it?

But, yeah. Screw inanimate objects. :smallamused: Houserule IF as a class skill for Doomlord.

[Namfuak]

You could use a Gnomish Quickrazors for this purpose, since they are free actions to draw and sheath without feats. You could also add that feat that makes drawing a sleight of handed weapon cause the other person to be flat-footed, and have tons of ranks in sleight of hand. This way, you could use the free action to draw, flat-foot, and sheath, and still have a full-round for your attack.

[hex0]

You could use a Gnomish Quickrazors for this purpose, since they are free actions to draw and sheath without feats. You could also add that feat that makes drawing a sleight of handed weapon cause the other person to be flat-footed, and have tons of ranks in sleight of hand. This way, you could use the free action to draw, flat-foot, and sheath, and still have a full-round for your attack.

Though how weird is that to describe in game? srsly. Like the opponent is really surprised each time you flip out your butterfly knife Quickrazor.

[shadow_archmagi]

Though how weird is that to describe in game? srsly. Like the opponent is really surprised each time you flip out your butterfly knife Quickrazor.

Most of them only work once per opponent, once per encounter. However, there are multiple different feats, so...

[Morph Bark]

You could use a Gnomish Quickrazors for this purpose, since they are free actions to draw and sheath without feats. You could also add that feat that makes drawing a sleight of handed weapon cause the other person to be flat-footed, and have tons of ranks in sleight of hand. This way, you could use the free action to draw, flat-foot, and sheath, and still have a full-round for your attack.

I am imagining someone with a storm of daggers and arrows around him as he constantly draws daggers and fires IF'd up arrows at his targets.

Iaijutsu Focus working for ranged weapons in a way could make sense, like in a stereotypical cowboy duel right out of a spaghetti western. Bows or crossbows work less well with that though, I imagine.

[Namfuak]

I just thought of something even worse. Combine gnomish quickrazor, various flat-footed things (grease comes to mind especially, since you would need to be an arcane caster to do this anyway), and cloud of knives. Releasing knives is a free action, so by RAW you can release as many as you want, while using the quickrazor as a free action as well. I don't remember if iajitsu focus specifically says it can't be used more than once a round, but if it doesn't then you can use it an infinite number of times.

Even if you took the RAI interpretation of this, it still means you are getting a free 1d6+caster+ijutsu every round

[FMArthur]

Aereni Focus ( Player's guide to Eberron, p. 20). It's like a better version of skill focus.

Yes, Aereni Focus is one of the cleanest ways to get full Iaijutsu ranks. The rest spend class levels or might not be allowed for one reason or another. Since it looks like a build is gonna come out of this thread, if anyone's interested in building for IF but not playing an elf, the alternatives as I know them are:
Taking a level in a class with all skills or a set of any selected skills (Factotum, Human Paragon, Savant, Expert, Exemplar)
Taking one of the unreplaced OA classes that has Iaijutsu Focus in-class (Sohei, Iaijutsu Master (requires Iaijutsu Focus 9 though), Kishi Charger, Singh Rager, Weapon Master). Samurai's been replaced in CW but some like to use OA's instead so it may be an option.
Taking the questionably applicable Skill Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm#skillKnowledge) feat
Taking the relatively unknown Flexible Mind feat from Dragon Magazine. Flexible Mind gives you two permanent class skills and a +1 bonus in each, but comes with the [Anarchic] tag which is basically the exact equivalent of [Vile] and [Exalted] feats but for chaos.

I recently built an IF character so I had to look this all up. Able Learner makes it a lighter load but really just saves you a skill point per level since your maximum ranks is what's important.

[Curmudgeon]

You could use a Gnomish Quickrazors for this purpose, since they are free actions to draw and sheath without feats. You could also add that feat that makes drawing a sleight of handed weapon cause the other person to be flat-footed, and have tons of ranks in sleight of hand. This way, you could use the free action to draw, flat-foot, and sheath, and still have a full-round for your attack.
Nope. There's a limitation in "that other feat"
Benefit: If you draw a light weapon and make a melee attack with it in the same round, you catch your opponent flat-footed (for the purpose of this attack only). You may use this feat only once per round and once per opponent during any single combat encounter. Doesn't matter what weapon you use or how many times you draw it: you're still going to qualify for Iaijutsu Focus at most one extra time per enemy.

[absolmorph]

I just thought of something even worse. Combine gnomish quickrazor, various flat-footed things (grease comes to mind especially, since you would need to be an arcane caster to do this anyway), and cloud of knives. Releasing knives is a free action, so by RAW you can release as many as you want, while using the quickrazor as a free action as well. I don't remember if iajitsu focus specifically says it can't be used more than once a round, but if it doesn't then you can use it an infinite number of times.

Even if you took the RAI interpretation of this, it still means you are getting a free 1d6+caster+ijutsu every round
Major problem: the quickrazor is a free action to draw and sheathe when you attack with it. Otherwise it works normally.
This was an issue for me when I was trying to find sources of infinite free actions to draw weapons or pull out items a little while ago.

[Voyager_I]

Is there some way we could qualify for Iaijutsu Focus damage while already channeling Harm and go for an instagib touch attack?

[mikau013]

Is there some way we could qualify for Iaijutsu Focus damage while already channeling Harm and go for an instagib touch attack?

Harm is a touch attack, so yes.

The real difficulty is in using Spellflower from SpC so that you can hold a harm charge in all of your hands, attack with both and still be able to draw and drop weapons.

You could try to put your hands in your pockets and draw them instantly or isn't there a toothpick weapon out there somewhere?

[Necroticplague]

Harm is a touch attack, so yes.

The real difficulty is in using Spellflower from SpC so that you can hold a harm charge in all of your hands, attack with both and still be able to draw and drop weapons.

You could try to put your hands in your pockets and draw them instantly or isn't there a toothpick weapon out there somewhere?

It's called mouthpick, but yes, it's a +1 weapon quality from Lords of Madness.

[2xMachina]

You could try to put your hands in your pockets and draw them instantly or isn't there a toothpick weapon out there somewhere?

You make me think of drawing fists from the pocket. Still a melee weapon right?

[Zombulian]

It's called mouthpick, but yes, it's a +1 weapon quality from Lords of Madness.

Try as I might I could not find that :smallfurious: Do you know the page?

[SirFredgar]

You know, I did see a build here that used IJF to draw and throw Katanas, based off this loophole. It had pretty silly damage potential too in the first round. However, I don't think he even took it so far as to draw and use a different weapon entirely to do the extra dice. He did state he used katanas only for flavor, and mechnically you could use anything. Though, iirc, daggers would work best with master thrower so you can throw multiple per attack.

[Necroticplague]

Try as I might I could not find that :smallfurious: Do you know the page?

Sorry, I can't but I remember that it is in the Beholder segment, intended for beholders with a more martial bent.

[Voyager_I]

Harm is a touch attack, so yes.

The real difficulty is in using Spellflower from SpC so that you can hold a harm charge in all of your hands, attack with both and still be able to draw and drop weapons.

Well, Spell Flower solves the problem pretty well. Hold the charge in one hand, quick draw something in the other, and then instagib something.

Shouldn't be too hard to make a build that could do that while reliably making their targets flat-footed.

[shadow_archmagi]

Well, Spell Flower solves the problem pretty well. Hold the charge in one hand, quick draw something in the other, and then instagib something.

Shouldn't be too hard to make a build that could do that while reliably making their targets flat-footed.

now we just need a way to throw your hands...

[Chess435]

now we just need a way to throw your hands...

Spectral Hand might work.

[Cog]

now we just need a way to throw your hands...
Blood Wind, from the SpC.

[Mystify]

now we just need a way to throw your hands...
1. get regeneration
2. take the Detach feat from savage species.

You can now tear your hand off and throw it at enemies as an attack.

[TuggyNE]

now we just need a way to throw your hands...

Isn't +1 throwing returning necklace of natural attacks supposed to work for this? :smallamused::smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

Isn't +1 throwing returning necklace of natural attacks supposed to work for this? :smallamused::smalltongue:

No, that one's reserved for ranged head butts. :smallbiggrin:

[shadow_archmagi]

Monk treats his entire body as a weapon. Uses the Quick Draw feat to take it out of the cloth covering as a free action. Enemies are caught flatfooted.

[Chess435]

Monk treats his entire body as a weapon. Uses the Quick Draw feat to take it out of the cloth covering as a free action. Enemies are caught flatfooted.

Oh god, imagine the jokes you could make with this. :smalleek:

[JoshuaZ]

It doesn't, as a Fireball isn't considered an attack. For it to be an attack, a d20 must be rolled.

Which means that the already broken orb spells become even more broken.