Ideas for Spellthief/Chameleon

[Talionis]

Premise a character who wants to use Spellthief to steal spells then add them to his Chameleon spellbook. Spells like: Mnemonic Enhancer and Mage's Lucubration allow you to remember the spell you cast. This will work for up to level 5 spells.

Using Mosquito Bite Trick to sneak attack someone, steal a spell and not know that you snuck attack them. You can do this while you are infiltrated and undercover.

1. I'm unclear of how I treat Divine spells cast by my spellthief ability? Is it arcane? I cast like a Cleric, but I have access to Druid, Ranger, and spells do I need to do anything to put those on my Divine list? Are they all just there for me to tap into?

2. I'm not sure how many levels of Spellthief I need? I guess I need at least 5 levels to hold a 5th level spell, which are the highest level spells I can put into my spellbook.

3. Would two levels of Swordsage be good to get Assassin Stance and other stuff that help enable Sneak Attack?

4. I know I want ten levels of Chameleon and at least 5 of Spellthief, what else would help? 3 Levels of Ordained Champion lets me channel attacks... A little Jade Phoenix Mage might be helpful especially the Arcane Wrath (Arcane Strike) plus advancing initiator level to help pick up an extra maneuver with the Chameleon floating feat, but we probably won't make it to the quicken spellcasting ability at level 7.

5. Would any of the Sneak Attack (Ambush) Feats be helpful? Thought things like Concussion Strike might be nice since I'd be attacking casters as much as possible. Might be able to stack a good number of -Caster Stats with Maneuvers or Duskblade/Ordained Champion channel spells...

Other ideas would be appreciated especially if it works with the spirit of the character.

[hex0]

If you can take Trickster Spellthief variant from Dragon Magazine, you will be a lot better off. Also, if you play a Neraph (Planar Handbook) you can sneak attack for free 1/enemy/encounter.

[Talionis]

If you can take Trickster Spellthief variant from Dragon Magazine, you will be a lot better off. Also, if you play a Neraph (Planar Handbook) you can sneak attack for free 1/enemy/encounter.

Good advice on the Trickster variant, I don't have the Dragon Magazine Issue with Trickerster in it. Wish they would reprint it in a new compendium...

I can't be Neraph and be a Chameleon, since Chameleons can only be Human or Changeling/Doppleganger?

[hex0]

I don't have the Dragon Magazine Issue with Trickerster in it. Wish they would reprint it in a new compendium...

I can't be Neraph and be a Chameleon, since Chameleons can only be Human or Changeling/Doppleganger?

You could take Neraph Charge or Neraph Throw feats instead then. :smalltongue:

[Talionis]

You could take Neraph Charge or Neraph Throw feats instead then. :smalltongue:

Cool, I didn't know about them. I'll have to read Planar. They might be really good for the floating feat.

[hex0]

Cool, I didn't know about them. I'll have to read Planar.

The cross class skills might take a while unless you blow a feat to get all knowledge skills as class skills. That way you could take Neraph Throw as your third level feat and have your sixth level feat open for Master Spellthief, of course.

Your other option so you have still have the skills for Chameleon would be Spellthief 1/Human Paragon (picking up Disguise as your permanent skill) 1/Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon 2/Chameleon X. This might be more useful (and flavorful). You could swap for Beguiler and trade your extra Trapfinding for Penetrating Strike. :smallamused: (Edit, not sure if that works don't have DS with me...)

Edit2: You could also be an Apprentice Criminal (feat) Silverbrow Human to get permanent Disguise and Bluff. :smallamused: Heck, that is a cool character background right there. That opens up...Spellthief 1/Duskblade 4 as a decent option then if you feel like channeling. Duskblade also has all knowledges and high BAB, which is good for qualifying for stuff.

Edit3: Keeper of Forbidden Lore (feat) does some neat stuff as well and opens up some good floating feat options as well. Demonic Sneak Attack, for example.

[Talionis]

Without enough levels of Spellthief won't I have problems casting spells, since I can't hold them to cast them? Because I like the channeling idea and I'd be more than ok with the flavor.

[hex0]

Without enough levels of Spellthief won't I have problems casting spells, since I can't hold them to cast them? Because I like the channeling idea and I'd be more than ok with the flavor.

Master Spellthief lets you steal/hold higher level spells by stacking your casting classes.

[Talionis]

Master Spellthief lets you steal/hold higher level spells by stacking your casting classes.

I was pretty sure RAW it doesn't, it only lets you steal the spell not actually hold it long enough to cast it. By RAI, a lot of people let it work that way.

I could be wrong.

[hex0]

I was pretty sure RAW it doesn't, it only lets you steal the spell not actually hold it long enough to cast it. By RAI, a lot of people let it work that way.

I could be wrong.

It never specifies spell levels in Master Spellthief, just stacking for the purpose of Stealing Spells, ie the Steal Spell Ability, which says how many spells you can hold etc.

[Talionis]

What are the best ways for me to setup Sneak Attack in battle?

[hex0]

What are the best ways for me to setup Sneak Attack in battle?

Playing a Neraph is the easiest way. You can sneak attack 1 per enemy/per encounter for free. Or Arcane Trickster's Impromptu Sneak Attack also works.

[JadePhoenix]

Playing a Neraph is the easiest way. You can sneak attack 1 per enemy/per encounter for free. Or Arcane Trickster's Impromptu Sneak Attack also works.

Or you can just flank.

[eggs]

It never specifies spell levels in Master Spellthief, just stacking for the purpose of Stealing Spells, ie the Steal Spell Ability, which says how many spells you can hold etc.
I'm having a hard time seeing how "for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal" can be interpreted to mean "for purposes other than determining what level of spell you can steal."

[dextercorvia]

Master Spellthief will kill your Chameleon CL after a point. They normally get twice class level as caster level. Master Spellthief sets your CL to the sum of arcane casting class levels and spellthief levels. By about ECL 11, you'll be wishing you didn't have it.

Edit: Just go Spellthief5/Chameleon10/Spellthief+5

[Talionis]

Master Spellthief will kill your Chameleon CL after a point. They normally get twice class level as caster level. Master Spellthief sets your CL to the sum of arcane casting class levels and spellthief levels. By about ECL 11, you'll be wishing you didn't have it.

Edit: Just go Spellthief5/Chameleon10/Spellthief+5

So, Arcane Focus shouldn't count as an arcane caster level? I thought it would boost both since Arcane Focus casts like a Wizard.

[dextercorvia]

So, Arcane Focus shouldn't count as an arcane caster level? I thought it would boost both since Arcane Focus casts like a Wizard.

It does count. But MS doesn't add your caster levels together, it adds your class levels together. The problem is, a Spellthief5/Chameleon6 will have a Chameleon CL of 12 without MS, but only 11 with. This will continue to get worse until Spellthief5/Chameleon10, which is 20 w/o, but only 15 w/MS. If you take Spellthief levels (or another Arcane class) afterward, it will get better again, and finally even out at ECL 20.

If your DM rules that you can have the better of the two values, then it is worth it to take, but otherwise, you are paying out CL in order to steal spells a couple of levels higher.

[JadePhoenix]

It does count. But MS doesn't add your caster levels together, it adds your class levels together.

Not, it adds Spellthief levels to your arcane caster level.
You decide the order on which events occur, etc etc

[dextercorvia]

Not, it adds Spellthief levels to your arcane caster level.
You decide the order on which events occur, etc etc

I'm afraid not on this one. I used to be a big proponent of MS with Chameleon. IIRC, Fax and someone else set me straight. If you read the feat carefully, it explains exactly what it does, which is different from normal.

[Talionis]

Dex, I read all of it close. RAW you are probably right although you could argue that the Chameleon Casting itself is outside the normal rule. Since both are special rules it would require a DM decision.

RAI, I think you can assume you take the better of Masterspellthief or Chameleon Casting level. Especially when you factor in most DM's reeling in other RAW shenanigans that can be done with the Master spellthief feat to a sane level.

But even if you don't, so long as you do all arcane classes it will balance out at level 20.

[dextercorvia]

Dex, I read all of it close. RAW you are probably right although you could argue that the Chameleon Casting itself is outside the normal rule. Since both are special rules it would require a DM decision.

RAI, I think you can assume you take the better of Masterspellthief or Chameleon Casting level. Especially when you factor in most DM's reeling in other RAW shenanigans that can be done with the Master spellthief feat to a sane level.

But even if you don't, so long as you do all arcane classes it will balance out at level 20.

I indeed think its reasonable to say that MS shouldn't hurt your caster level. I hope that's what your DM says.

A spellthief trick that I like is to take a bloodline feat, or Mother Cyst, (or both) and trade away those spells known using Apprentice Spellcaster. That way, if you steal a crappy 8th level spell, you can turn it into something versatile like Greater Shadow Evocation, or Polymorph Any Object.

[Talionis]

Dex, that feat/whatever: apprentice spellcaster. Sounds like a great trick for a Spellthief. Only, I've never seen it referenced. I've searched a bit for it with no luck.

[dextercorvia]

Dex, that feat/whatever: apprentice spellcaster. Sounds like a great trick for a Spellthief. Only, I've never seen it referenced. I've searched a bit for it with no luck.

Sorry, it is the Apprentice feat (page 176) in the DMGII. Spellcaster is one of the varieties, and it has several benefits. The one I'm referencing gives spontaneous casters an additional 1st level spell known, and lets them swap a spell known at every level in addition to the usual every 2(sorcerer) or 4(spellthief). When you combine it with something like Mother Cyst which grants 10 spells known across all nine levels, it gets pretty potent.

[Talionis]

Sorry, it is the Apprentice feat (page 176) in the DMGII. Spellcaster is one of the varieties, and it has several benefits. The one I'm referencing gives spontaneous casters an additional 1st level spell known, and lets them swap a spell known at every level in addition to the usual every 2(sorcerer) or 4(spellthief). When you combine it with something like Mother Cyst which grants 10 spells known across all nine levels, it gets pretty potent.

Thanks Dex. I actually have the DMGII somewhere. I didn't catch it and it wasn't on my list of feats. I'll definitely look in that direction?

What do you think about 3 levels of Duskblade for channeling? Is there a prestige class I ought to look at that does something similar? I was looking at possibly a level or two dip of Jade Phoenix Mage for the Arcane Wrath and increased Initiator level for my bonus feat. But I'm not sure giving up Spellthief levels is the way to go either...

[dextercorvia]

What do you think about 3 levels of Duskblade for channeling?

I like Duskblade/Chameleon, but I think you could be trying to do too much. Focus on getting those sneak attacks, so you can steal more spells. I might cap it off with Unseen Seer instead of more spellthief. You should be able to qualify for that with just Spellthief levels without too much pain. You'll know 4 1st level spells, so two of them can be divinations.

For feats, you might take Quicken Spell, and Rapid Metamagic. You are going to be stealing spells, and converting their energy, to spontaneously cast stuff, and sometimes, a Quickened True Strike (etc.) will be the answer.

Edit: If you want to channel a spell, try buying a spell storing weapon, but frankly you don't have the HP or full on gish buffs to get that close.

[Talionis]

A spellthief trick that I like is to take a bloodline feat, or Mother Cyst, (or both) and trade away those spells known using Apprentice Spellcaster. That way, if you steal a crappy 8th level spell, you can turn it into something versatile like Greater Shadow Evocation, or Polymorph Any Object....

For feats, you might take Quicken Spell, and Rapid Metamagic. You are going to be stealing spells, and converting their energy, to spontaneously cast stuff, and sometimes, a Quickened True Strike (etc.) will be the answer.

Edit: If you want to channel a spell, try buying a spell storing weapon, but frankly you don't have the HP or full on gish buffs to get that close.

Really good advice. On the Bloodline Levels, can Aprentice Spellcaster really change a spell-like ability you use once per day? I didn't see any other real spells all the example spells seemed to be really low level as well. I like Bloodline Levels with Spellthief, since ST levels past 5 seem pretty wasted, but I do want to increase the level of spells I can hold. I think Bloodline would also increase initiator levels.

I agree, the thing I liked most about Channeling was action/economy and I'd be really happy to just use Quicken Spell and Rapid Metamagic wanting to sneak attack and cast in the same turn. I'll have to look into them and see if I have any prestige classes that could help with.

[dextercorvia]

Bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium, not Bloodline levels from UA.