Annoying Flavor/Crunch Disconnects

[grarrrg]

It's great when the designers name things that make sense.
Take Power Attack for instance, it does pretty much what one would expect it to do. MOAR DAMAGES!!
Likewise Turn Undead (or Channel Energy for PF) does what it sounds like it should.

But this thread isn't about those.

This thread is about those times when you just have to say "...what..."

My favorite/current example is the Superstitious (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/superstitious) Barbarian Archetype from Pathfinder.
Here's the flavor:

Many barbarians distrust magic. While most just shy away from magic, others focus their rage on users of such foul arts. These barbarians are naturally distrusting, and develop keen senses to protect them from harm.

Alright, it's called "Superstitious", they hate magic, and they try to protect themselves from it.
So you're probably thinking they get what? Save boosts? Spell Resistance? Maybe Extra Damage vs. Spellcasters?

Nope.
They get Initiative and AC boosts during the Surprise Round (IF there is a Surprise round and ONLY during the Surprise round).
And eventually get Blindsight....at level 19....and only out to 30ft.

...what...


Please share your favorite Flavor/Crunch mismatches!
Or don't.
Your call.

[hex0]

Reaping Mauler. It needs escape artist on a class that is supposed to focus on doing the grappling...not ESCAPING the grapple and losing everything if they increase size.

[hymer]

Small stuff: If you use the ability to walk about and fight, despite being at negative hp, the Diehard feat will actually make it a whole lot more likely you'll get killed. The Deceitful feat doesn't give bonus to Bluff. Nimble Fingers do nothing for Sleight of Hand.

Vexing bits that got errata'ed: Dragons are knowledge arcana. Dragon shaman doesn't get this as a class skill according to PHB2. Same with scouts not getting Disable Device, though they do get trapfinding in CAdv.

And then some weird stuff: Roaring armour (MIC)? It sends arrows and bolts back at the shooter, natch. Master of Undeath (CM) feat? Why, the main thing here is that the undead you create aren't actually mastered. Decomposition sounds like a spell for getting rid of corporeal undead or just your kitchen garbage. It actually causes wounds to fester.

[INoKnowNames]

I still don't understand why Death Watch is an Evil Spell but Soul Bind is not.

Seriously, why is seeing whether someone is alive or not (let alone the genuinly good applications for say medical purposes) Evil when Binding their Souls to the point that Divine Intervention can not save them (seriously, what application for good does that have other than finishing off a bad guy) is not?

[hex0]

Vexing bits that got errata'ed: Dragons are knowledge arcana. Dragon shaman doesn't get this as a class skill according to PHB2. Same with scouts not getting Disable Device, though they do get trapfinding in CAdv.


And yet they said 'eh, give favored souls arcana OR religion'. Ugh. Just give them both.

Also, Rokugan Ninja has a high Will save and a low Reflex save...

[Particle_Man]

Does the entire Monk class count? How about the Hexblade? :)

Or the PHB II Knight that has abilities that work better with reach weapons (and hence not shields) although they are meant to be the traditional Knight in Shining Armour (with shield, I would presume).

What is dusky about a Duskblade?

Some of the Pathfinder Barbarian Rage powers seem rather strange -- like "my anger makes me swim better!" What's next, "my anger lets me punch time"?

One of the Pathfinder Cavalier subtypes basically requires one to be a selfish bastard (not exactly a knight in shining armour).

Ranger favoured enemy divisions never made sense to me. They have to differentiate between about a dozen types of humanoids (so that what works vs. an elf won't work vs. a human) yet the entire class of monstrous humanoids (who are more different from each other than any humanoids are from each other) are counted as one thing. So is the entire class of aberrations, of animals (from diminutive to gargantuan, with all sorts of shapes and environments to live in), etc.

Paladins have to be lawful good (even if their gods are not! Wee Jas, a LN god, can have Paladins (as per the Ruby Knight of Wee Jas prestige class flavour text). Clerics just have to be within one step of their deity's alignment (with one restriction - not true neutral unless their deity is too). Druids *can't* be lawful good, because apparently nature doesn't roll that way, although druids can be lawful neutral and druids can be neutral good.

The favoured class system makes it more likely that the race with wizard as a favoured class will "dabble" in wizardry, and the race that doesn't, if there are wizards, will go all the way (because of the xp penalty for dabbling). There is no reward for going all the way in one's favoured class (Pathfinder fixes this at least).

Sorcerers get their bloodline from dragons in 3.5. Dragons can cast cleric spells with their sorcerer spell slots. Human sorcerers can't.

Wizards have a high starting age, reflecting the training it takes to become a wizard. Or one can take 1 level in a class with a lower starting age, adventure for a week, and then multi-class into wizard.

Pathfinder rangers have intimidate as a class skill (to reflect that they are scary). They get favoured enemy bonuses to bluff (not even a class skill!), but not to intimidate. So their favourite prey won't be more scared to face someone designed to kill them?

That's all I can think of for now. I am sure there are more.

[Rhaegar14]

Every gish class that doesn't have a full casting progression (or at least nearly full). Swiftblade can be an exception.

[Hirax]

Fluff not matching crunch? Most alignment restrictions. Monk, bard, druid, stormcaster, lycanthropes (bears= good and wolves = evil?), dread pirate, etc.

[TuggyNE]

Sorcerers get their bloodline from dragons in 3.5. Dragons can cast cleric spells with their sorcerer spell slots. Human sorcerers can't.

That's only metallic dragons; chromatic cannot. I'm not sure about the various other types of true dragons, but I doubt all of them are able to cast cleric spells either.

Other than that, yeah, good list.

[Voyager_I]

Does the entire Sword-and-Board Archetype count?


I mostly blame it on Dancing Shields.

[Flickerdart]

Stuff like Meteor Swarm that claims it's "powerful" and then isn't.

[Fitz10019]

I like the Whisperknife fluff, but not the class's crunch. I think it should be treated as an organization completely independent of the prestige class.

[JellyPooga]

I like the Whisperknife fluff, but not the class's crunch. I think it should be treated as an organization completely independent of the prestige class.

At least the Whisperknife crunch matches the fluff though...

:smallconfused:"Who are you?"
:smallwink:"I'm a Whisperknife"
:smallconfused:"What do you do?"
:smallwink:"Chuck knives around, hunting down known enemies of halflings"
:smallconfused:"What abilities do you have?"
:smallwink:"Uh...I can chuck knives around and I'm especially good at killing known halfling enemies?"
:smallconfused:"...OK then"

They might not be especially good at what they claim to do, but they do it nonetheless.

[Rubik]

Fighters. Just...fighters.

Look at their fluff. Now look at me. Now look at their crunch. Now look at me. Now look at their skills. Now look at me. Now look at the designers. NOW HIT THEM WITH A HAMMER.

[Eonir]

Spontaneous casters not getting bonus spells known. It never made sense to me how you can be the most epic sorcerer to ever walk the face of the mutliverse...but still only know the same number of spells as every other sorcerer.

[Godskook]

That's only metallic dragons; chromatic cannot. I'm not sure about the various other types of true dragons, but I doubt all of them are able to cast cleric spells either.

Other than that, yeah, good list.

Red and Blue dragons would both like a word with you.

[TuggyNE]

Red and Blue dragons would both like a word with you.

Good catch. :smallredface:

[SleepyShadow]

Fighters. Just...fighters.

Look at their fluff. Now look at me. Now look at their crunch. Now look at me. Now look at their skills. Now look at me. Now look at the designers. NOW HIT THEM WITH A HAMMER.

Look at your fighter, now look at me, now back at the fighter, now back at me. Sadly, your fighter isn't me, but if they were, they'd be a warblade.

I'm on a horse.

[grarrrg]

Look at your fighter, now look at me, now back at the fighter, now back at me. Sadly, your fighter isn't me, but if they were, they'd be a warblade.

I'm on a horse.

Good for you.

I'm on a BOAT!

[SleepyShadow]

Good for you.

I'm on a BOAT!

This thread is now DIAMONDS! :smallcool:

[gomipile]

Celerity not being able to be cast before one acts on the first round of combat because you are flatfooted.

[Curious]

Every gish class that doesn't have a full casting progression (or at least nearly full). Swiftblade can be an exception.

Eh, what? Having less casting ability because you spend just as much time practicing with a blade as studying your magic is flavor/crunch dissonance? I think you are confused. That is called flavor/crunch synergy.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Fighters. Just...fighters.

Look at their fluff. Now look at me. Now look at their crunch. Now look at me. Now look at their skills. Now look at me. Now look at the designers. NOW HIT THEM WITH A HAMMER.

Look again, the hammer is now a copy of Tome of Battle. I'm riding a dragon.

[Big Fau]

My favorite/current example is the Superstitious (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/superstitious) Barbarian Archetype from Pathfinder.
Here's the flavor:


Alright, it's called "Superstitious", they hate magic, and they try to protect themselves from it.
So you're probably thinking they get what? Save boosts? Spell Resistance? Maybe Extra Damage vs. Spellcasters?

Nope.
They get Initiative and AC boosts during the Surprise Round (IF there is a Surprise round and ONLY during the Surprise round).
And eventually get Blindsight....at level 19....and only out to 30ft.

...what...


Please share your favorite Flavor/Crunch mismatches!
Or don't.
Your call.

And people doubt me when I say they can't design their way out of a paper bag even if you gave them the scissors...

Wilders can't enter Anarchic Initiate, despite the latter being built specifically for the former.

[erikun]

Wilders can't enter Anarchic Initiate, despite the latter being built specifically for the former.
I was looking at mentioning this. The class is pretty clearly for Wilders with Wild surge and Psions with Overchannel, as both are specifically mentioned and both specifically don't stack. The class requires 8 ranks of Knowledge (The Planes). Do Wilders get Knowledge (The Planes) as a class skill? Nope.

Justiciar. I like the idea of the class, but for the most part it grants you the ability to attack for subdual damage and +4d6 damage if attacking a flanked/flat-footed enemy over ten levels. You know how else you could get that? Eight levels of rogue, and a sap or the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

[JoshuaZ]

Shadowcaster. The fluff is great. The crunch is a really interesting magic system . What that system has to do with the fluff at all is not all clear.

Fiend-Blooded (from Heroes of Horror). Explicitly in fluff meant to be for sorcerers. But the 8 ranks in Knowledge(The Planes) makes it surprisingly tough for a sorcerer to qualify.

The Pale Master in Libris Mortis says in the flavor that some people who take the class have also dabbled in divine magic. This is from a crunch perspective, an absolutely awful idea especially given that the first level of the PM doesn't advance spellcasting or do much of anything. (It is the deadest dead level I know.)

And then there's the whole problem with most of the standard dual-advancement classes (Mystic Theurge, etc.) where the lack of real class features mean that rather than be what the fluff would suggest (a master of two kinds of magic) one ends up being pretty weak in both, and don't even get any nice ways of using them together.

But let's save the best(worst?) for last: True Necromancer- supposedly a master of both divine and arcane necromancy, but actually really weak. Almost everything about this class is bad.

You lose a ridiculous number of caster levels for some minor power. With intended entry (or any not entirely cheesy entry) you end up with only 8th levels spells, and don't even hit that until 20th level. You are stuck taking a specific domain that isn't very useful. And their class features mainly duplicate spells they can already cast (often with either side), and the one thing they do actually have is a decent number of spell slots which makes their class features even less useful. And because of all the caster level loss, you end up in many builds less total undead controlled than a straight cleric or wizard, and generally at best tie them.

You do get rebuking undead (which is a minor positive over the straight mystic theurge) but really doesn't help much since even with your Necromantic Prowess, your rebuking is still weaker than a straight cleric until you've reached 9th level in the class, by which time rebuking is generally not useful because rebuking just isn't useful at high levels. At 12th level in the class (generally around 17th character level) you get a rebuking level which is possibly higher than that of a cleric, by 1 level.

In fairness, one does get the zone of desecration which is a neat ability, but it is neat, not something that's strong enough for a class to really rely on.

So, the "True" necromancer is weaker than a standard wizard or cleric who goes into necromancy, and is weaker than a mystic theurge who concentrates on necromancy. Not impressive.

[Venger]

Justiciar. I like the idea of the class, but for the most part it grants you the ability to attack for subdual damage and +4d6 damage if attacking a flanked/flat-footed enemy over ten levels. You know how else you could get that? Eight levels of rogue, and a sap or the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

I adore the fluff for justiciar as it's the only 3.5 class (aside from bloodhound) that lets you be a cowboy, and that's cool as hell.

While you do have a point, it does at least give full BA and d10s, which rogue does not, letting you use some more overtly martial strategies and letting you play dirty harry a lot more effectively.

you have not played this game in challenge mode until you have played a justiciar with vow of nonviolence. fluffing it as the rules of the wild west makes a lot more sense than the nonsense in boed, and is a lot less likely to draw the ire of your party as a cowboy talking about a righteous kill is a lot more understandable than the complete absence of an explanation present in the source.

honestly, the discrepancy between fluff and crunch that really gets under my skin is BoED. all of it, really, but especially stuff like touch of golden ice, ravages, and afflictions. I really don't need to say any more than that. they really piss me off

[Fax Celestis]

What is dusky about a Duskblade?

If you had actually read the duskblade fluff, you wouldn't be asking this question.

[JKTrickster]

Spontaneous casters not getting bonus spells known. It never made sense to me how you can be the most epic sorcerer to ever walk the face of the mutliverse...but still only know the same number of spells as every other sorcerer.

I am pretty sure this can't be right :smallconfused:

[TuggyNE]

I am pretty sure this can't be right :smallconfused:

It isn't, as http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters makes quite clear. Sorcerers gain bonus spells from high Charisma, just as you'd expect.

[Duskranger]

It isn't, as http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters makes quite clear. Sorcerers gain bonus spells from high Charisma, just as you'd expect.

(s)He is right, he was talking about spells known, not spells/day. Every sorceror knows as much spells as the other.

[Canarr]

Most of the prerequisites for the Blackguard PrC.

The +6 BAB makes this only really viable for a character with a full BAB progression; but he ALSO needs 5 ranks in Hide? Okay, I get that Evil shouldn't be out in the open too much or it'll get smacked, but those 5 ranks would take a paladin or fighter a few levels to buy.

And the feats... Power Attack, I don't mind; most melee builds will have that, anyway. But Cleave and Improved Sunder? "Yeah, so you've been burning good temples and pillaging convents; but I'm afraid unless you know how to smash an enemy's weapon, you're just not evil enough to join us."

Just... why? :smallconfused:

[hymer]

Spells Per Day vs. Spells Known. You get bonus for high charisma to spells per day, but not to spells known.

But then, the 'most epic' (I believe those were the words) sorcerer in the world would still have more spells knwon than his lesser colleagues. After all, he'd be higher level than them, and level governs spells known. And then there are, of course, several ways to expand your spell list; ways that have nothing to do with charisma.

[Derjuin]

Slow server resulted in ninja'd. :smallsigh:

Sorcerers only getting Know (Arcana). You'd figure someone who doesn't need to study magic to use it would be able to study other things. :smallconfused:

Perform being a Monk skill. I still don't know where they were going with this. Maybe Perform (Show Off)?

Fighters not having spot or listen. Or search. They apparently make very poor watch/guardsmen.

The code restrictions for Paladins. The code for Paladin of Slaughter is practically crippling, and results in a very short-lived paladin.

Hierophant says it grants the divine caster "spells and abilities" of which the lesser faithful "can only dream". It doesn't grant any spells. :smallconfused:

Similar to Hierophant, Arcane Archer, a PrC built to blend magic with archery, doesn't increases your ability to cast spells at all.

[Hyde]

I won't call it "annoying" per se, but it's about the "Half" templates.

Half-celestial, to be specific. It claims that it can be applied to any corporeal, living creature yadda yadda, while the fluff makes it pretty clear it's talking about breeding.

And then they made War-forged.

One of my last characters in 3.5 proper was a Half-Celestial Warforged Paladin with the ranged smite feature.

His name was Wing Zero :)

[Tenno Seremel]

level governs spells known
“The sorcerer does not learn additional spells unless he or she selects the Spell Knowledge feat.”

[Krazzman]

Perform being a Monk skill. I still don't know where they were going with this. Maybe Perform (Show Off)?

Or maybe Perform Dance for Shadowdancer?



Similar to Hierophant, Arcane Archer, a PrC built to blend magic with archery, doesn't increases your ability to cast spells at all.

at least Pathfinder fixed this.

Prestige classes with non errata'd prerequesites. Like the one wanting Point Blank Shot and Far Shot but never will properly get use out of them from complete adventurer.

Eberrons Sigils. They are mostly there for flavor but need you to invest heavily in it to have some real ingame mileage out of it.

Goblins in DnD and PF annoy me in what they look like but that might be only my taste.

Another thing I don't get is the change in spell lists. Divine Casters still have some buffs but enlarge or shrink person are arcane only. Enlarge and Shrink animal aren't even included as spells anymore...

And of course shillelagh. Why would this spell only work with normal Quarterstaves or "cudgels"...

[hymer]

@ Tenno Seremel:

1st level sorcerer spells known: 6
20th level sorcerer spells known: 43

At least one more spell known at every level advance. Hence, I feel it is appropriate to claim that level governs spells known.

[Tenno Seremel]

@ Tenno Seremel:

1st level sorcerer spells known: 6
20th level sorcerer spells known: 43

At least one more spell known at every level advance. Hence, I feel it is appropriate to claim that level governs spells known.

I was pretty sure Eonir was talking about level 20 vs level 99999, but maybe this was not the case :}

[hymer]

You're probably right. 'Epic' doesn't mean what it used to mean, I guess it's to mean 'above level 20' in this case now that I read it again.
Still, at level 99999, I'd be surprised if he heasn't dedicated a few feats to learn more spells. If he didn't, that'd be his own fault I should think. ;)

[JadePhoenix]

What is dusky about a Duskblade?

If you read the class description, you'll understand.


If you had actually read the duskblade fluff, you wouldn't be asking this question.
Oh, you bet me to it. Btw, nice job on Superstar, good luck next year.

[Telonius]

Class Skills are a big one for me.

Druid, the master of nature, perfectly in tune with his surroundings .... does not have Knowledge (Geography) on his list.

Cleric, a person who's very much concerned with the welfare (or destruction) of a person's soul ... does not have Sense Motive on the list.

Ranger can be particularly good at fighting dragons, magical beasts, undead, outsiders, elementals, and various types of Humanoids ... without Knowing a darn thing about any of them. (Though he does have animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, and ... aberrations?! ... covered).

Other than that? Assassin's Death Attack has always annoyed the hell out of me. Not necessarily because it sucks so badly (though it does). But because of the bolded portion:


If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice).

So your whole class concept is built around stealth, avoiding detection, knowing where to precisely target your mark, attacking them, then getting away with it - but for some reason you can only do that with a melee weapon and not an arrow or a thrown weapon.


Perform being a Monk skill. I still don't know where they were going with this. Maybe Perform (Show Off)?


Comedy (buffoonery), maybe? :smallbiggrin:

A little bit more seriously, they were probably thinking about either percussion (gong), dance (kabuki), act (mime) (to emulate some sort of tai chi stuff), or sing (Gregorian-ish chant, for a different flavor of Monk).

[JadePhoenix]

So your whole class concept is built around stealth, avoiding detection, knowing where to precisely target your mark, attacking them, then getting away with it - but for some reason you can only do that with a melee weapon and not an arrow or a thrown weapon.

Because hashashin killed with daggers, in melee, obviously. It's fluff.
Also, there is at least one spell that allows you to do a ranged death attack.

[Fax Celestis]

And of course shillelagh. Why would this spell only work with normal Quarterstaves or "cudgels"...

shil·le·lagh /SHəˈlālē/
Noun: A thick stick of blackthorn or oak used in Ireland, typically as a weapon.

[kardar233]

shil·le·lagh /SHəˈlālē/
Noun: A thick stick of blackthorn or oak used in Ireland, typically as a weapon.

The great thing is, if you're non-proficient with it, you can just go a-flaile with the shillelagh.

[Kalmageddon]

Because hashashin killed with daggers, in melee, obviously. It's fluff.
Also, there is at least one spell that allows you to do a ranged death attack.

Somehow I don't think the Assassin prestige class was aiming to be historically correct. Also, sniping someone shouldn't require the use of magic.

[Particle_Man]

So the duskblade fluff is "once they were l33t and now they are rare, in the "dusk" of their reknown/popularity"?

And the crunch part of that is?

Or is it just "day/night = sword/magic"?

Eternal Blade got it right, I think. There you summon the leet ancestor's spirit who then gives you crunchy bonuses to what you do.

And if there is more to the duskblade, please quote it, don't just say "if you read it you would understand". Enlighten my "dusky" mind. :smallsmile:

What else -- well, I think Pathfinder's half-orcs got a much needed crunch boost, but it does seem a little odd fluff-wise that half-orcs now make awesome wizards, high intellect and all. And all the fluff saying half-orcs are outsiders, etc., means what crunch-wise (aside from DM's whim?) if there is no cha penalty?

[Particle_Man]

Most of the prerequisites for the Blackguard PrC.

The +6 BAB makes this only really viable for a character with a full BAB progression; but he ALSO needs 5 ranks in Hide? Okay, I get that Evil shouldn't be out in the open too much or it'll get smacked, but those 5 ranks would take a paladin or fighter a few levels to buy.

And the feats... Power Attack, I don't mind; most melee builds will have that, anyway. But Cleave and Improved Sunder? "Yeah, so you've been burning good temples and pillaging convents; but I'm afraid unless you know how to smash an enemy's weapon, you're just not evil enough to join us."

Just... why? :smallconfused:

Personally, I assumed you needed 7 levels to get into blackguard (say 6 fighter and 1 rogue). Although I guess ranger could pull it off in 6.

As for Improved Sunder, I assumed that was for the look on the paladin's face after the blackguard sundered the holy avenger. :)

[TuggyNE]

(s)He is right, he was talking about spells known, not spells/day. Every sorceror knows as much spells as the other.

That'll teach me to post late at night. :smallsigh:

[Fax Celestis]

Or is it just "day/night = sword/magic"?

That is...pretty much what the fluff says, yes.

[Particle_Man]

That is...pretty much what the fluff says, yes.

In that case, I would have gone for "dawn blade" :)

[Hiro Protagonest]

In that case, I would have gone for "dawn blade" :)

No no, that's the name of a magic sword. :smalltongue:

[JadePhoenix]

In that case, I would have gone for "dawn blade" :)

So, you were basically complaining about something you had never read? And you think that's okay?

[Kuulvheysoon]

In that case, I would have gone for "dawn blade" :)

I think that it's more referring to how they're a dying breed, rather than experiencing a resurgence in numbers. Dawnblade would probably work (in a custom world) if the order got a lot of attention and started attracting huge numbers of new applicants.

On a unrelated note, nice to see you hanging around, Fax. Haven't seen you for a while..

[Squidfist]

Favored Souls. The entire class.

They are worse than clerics in every conceivable way, yet the god that gives them power, treats them special... like giving them wings eventually. It just seems strange that someone with such a strong connection with their god are so gimpy; not getting domains, having a poor BaB progression, despite not having to waste time training to cast spells, slow spell progression, medium armor, etc etc.

They are just so bad, while being such a cool idea.

Also, Sorcerers. Don't get me started.

Like, taking away spells compared to a wizard is already a brutal balance for spontaneous casting... not worth it in almost every case, but then they also take away the feats every 5 levels, and don't give them anything for that. Just dumb.

I've never seen anyone ever go into sorc opposed to wiz when getting arcane caster levels for a prestige class, because why would you? It's dumb. Sorceres to me, are worse than mages 99% of the time, which shouldn't be the case.

I give sorcerers feats every 3 levels starting at 2nd, and more skill points to make up for it. And it still seems under powered more often than not.

[Squidfist]

Favored Souls. The entire class.

They are worse than clerics in every conceivable way, yet the god that gives them power, treats them special... like giving them wings eventually. It just seems strange that someone with such a strong connection with their god are so gimpy; not getting domains, having a poor BaB progression, despite not having to waste time training to cast spells, slow spell progression, medium armor, etc etc.

They are just so bad, while being such a cool idea.

Also, Sorcerers. Don't get me started.

Like, taking away spells compared to a wizard is already a brutal balance for spontaneous casting... not worth it in almost every case, but then they also take away the feats every 5 levels, and don't give them anything for that. Just dumb.

I've never seen anyone ever go into sorc opposed to wiz when getting arcane caster levels for a prestige class, because why would you? It's dumb. Sorceres to me, are worse than mages 99% of the time, which shouldn't be the case.

I give sorcerers feats every 3 levels starting at 2nd, and more skill points to make up for it. And it still seems under powered more often than not.

[Andre]

On Duskblades, there's a FR 'Class Chronicles' article on the wizards website which expands a bit beyond the night-and-day and why there's so few left of them. :smallamused:

When the army of Aryvandaar invaded Shantel Othreier in -10,900, the heavily armored spellblade contingent was faced with a terrible decision.
[...]
Before the war council could resolve this thorny question, a fast-moving orc horde fell upon both armies. The loyalists stayed with the Aryvandaaran forces, slaughtering elf and orc alike.
[...]
Afterward, the warriors who slew indiscriminately became known as duskblades. They received this name because their contingent broke through the Shantel Othreier line at dusk, cresting a hill toward victory. Survivors of the enemy forces described these warriors as frightening blurs of magic and metal, shining in the fading orange sun like vengeful, fallen angels.
[...]
Those that cleaved through their brethren with sword and spell became ignominious symbols of Aryvandaaran treachery.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Favored Souls. The entire class.

They are worse than clerics in every conceivable way, yet the god that gives them power, treats them special... like giving them wings eventually. It just seems strange that someone with such a strong connection with their god are so gimpy; not getting domains, having a poor BaB progression, despite not having to waste time training to cast spells, slow spell progression, medium armor, etc etc.

They are just so bad, while being such a cool idea.

Also, Sorcerers. Don't get me started.

Like, taking away spells compared to a wizard is already a brutal balance for spontaneous casting... not worth it in almost every case, but then they also take away the feats every 5 levels, and don't give them anything for that. Just dumb.

I've never seen anyone ever go into sorc opposed to wiz when getting arcane caster levels for a prestige class, because why would you? It's dumb. Sorceres to me, are worse than mages 99% of the time, which shouldn't be the case.

I give sorcerers feats every 3 levels starting at 2nd, and more skill points to make up for it. And it still seems under powered more often than not.

Underpowered? Yeah, compared to cleric or wizard. That doesn't mean they're underpowered. On the contrary, they're overpowered. Tier 3s have gamebreaking potential, and these guys are tier 2. Wizards and clerics are tier 1. Even the most powerful fighter build, the ubercharger, isn't much compared to these. A sorcerer with Energy Substitution can go from having just Orb of Fire to also having Orb of Cold and Orb of Lightning, with the Orb of Fire's rider effect, and they can do the same with Fireball, and Lightning Bolt, and most other blast spells you can think of. And that's not even going all out with your blastomancy and building... The Mailman.

[Squidfist]

Underpowered? Yeah, compared to cleric or wizard. That doesn't mean they're underpowered. On the contrary, they're overpowered. Tier 3s have gamebreaking potential, and these guys are tier 2. Wizards and clerics are tier 1. Even the most powerful fighter build, the ubercharger, isn't much compared to these. A sorcerer with Energy Substitution can go from having just Orb of Fire to also having Orb of Cold and Orb of Lightning, with the Orb of Fire's rider effect, and they can do the same with Fireball, and Lightning Bolt, and most other blast spells you can think of. And that's not even going all out with your blastomancy and building... The Mailman.

Wouldn't overpowered mean better than other classes? Sure you can deck out a sorc to be GOOD, I'm not saying they're bad, but they're just less good than a wizard... I'm sure you could achieve the same amount of holycrap with a wizard, and at a lower level if you're mini-maxing in a similar way.

The thing is, a sorc and a wizard leveling up side by side at the hands of average, casual 3.5 players, the wizard will always be better. I don't factor in cookie cutter builds, because those aren't role-playing builds. Those are optimized feats chosen by other people to maximize numbers... which is not cool, and doesn't really accurately reflect the class itself.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wouldn't overpowered mean better than other classes? Sure you can deck out a sorc to be GOOD, I'm not saying they're bad, but they're just less good than a wizard... I'm sure you could achieve the same amount of holycrap with a wizard, and at a lower level if you're mini-maxing in a similar way.
They're less powerful than cleric, druid, wizard, Spell to Power erudite, and spirit shaman. That's it. Compared to all the other classes in 3.5. Warmage, healer, factotum, rogue, bard, fighter, barbarian, beguiler, warblade, crusader, swordsage...

The thing is, a sorc and a wizard leveling up side by side at the hands of average, casual 3.5 players, the wizard will always be better. I don't factor in cookie cutter builds, because those aren't role-playing builds. Those are optimized feats chosen by other people to maximize numbers... which is not cool, and doesn't really accurately reflect the class itself.

How do you know? In a casual game, the extra spell slots actually matter, because they're not going to be playing focused conjurers and transmuters and abusing the cheap cost of buying new spells. And if you're using Stormwind Fallacy to say sorcs are weaker than they can be, than it's only logical that the wizards are being played weaker too.

[Flickerdart]

To be fair, it is a lot easier to un-scew-up a wizard ("Hmm, my spells aren't contributing to combat, I should go buy different ones and try those") than a sorcerer ("Hmm, my spells aren't contributing to combat, I should learn different ones next level").

[Rubik]

About the only things more powerful than a well-played wizard are A.) a stronger wizard, B.) a druid/planar shepherd, C.) a spell-to-power erudite, D.) a wizard with a full-casting PrC, E.) beholder mages, and F.) Pun Pun.

Comparing things unfavorably to wizards as a sign that they're faulty is a bad thing.

[Prime32]

In PF it is physically impossible to draw more than one alchemical item per round, even if you have Quick Draw. This isn't a side-effect of anything, it's explicitly stated. This limitation does not apply to any other kind of item, including alchemical items wielded as improvised weapons.

...why? :smallconfused:

[bloodtide]

Most PsC in just about every book. A character needs a bit of something else, you don't want them to be a bland one class. You want to add something that makes them special, different then the standard class. So you grab some books and start looking for a PsC. You find tons and tons of great fluff and will say 'Oh that fits the character perfectly'. But then when you get to the crunch it's almost useless and worse does not eve come close to fitting the fluff.

Some examples:

Bladesingers 'blend sword play and magic, but can only quicken one spell a day? Not much 'blend' there.

Divine Oracle 'visions from a god' the oracle domain is nice...but then almost all the other abilities are all about combat?! Uncanny dodge? Immune to surprise? Trap sense? How about some divination-like powers....

Dwarven Defender 'a champion defender', with trap sense? In case while your defending something the bad guys walk up to you and bulid a trap?

[Hirax]

Divine Oracle 'visions from a god' the oracle domain is nice...but then almost all the other abilities are all about combat?! Uncanny dodge? Immune to surprise? Trap sense? How about some divination-like powers....


This bothers me too. I love a 3 level dip to be able to roll twice on augury, omen of peril, etc, but the most of the rest just doesn't make sense.

[Sudain]

Red and Blue dragons would both like a word with you.

Wait, i thought all dragons were restricted to sorcerer spells. Where does it say they can cast divine?

[mikau013]

In PF it is physically impossible to draw more than one alchemical item per round, even if you have Quick Draw. This isn't a side-effect of anything, it's explicitly stated. This limitation does not apply to any other kind of item, including alchemical items wielded as improvised weapons.

...why? :smallconfused:

People pointed out during pathfinder beta that rogues with flasks were quite good. Thus paizo decided that sneak attack wouldn't work with flasks anymore and for good measure nerfed quick drawing them too in case they forgot anything else.

Because if you play classes in a different flavour than patfinder devs you were playing the game wrong or something.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Wait, i thought all dragons were restricted to sorcerer spells. Where does it say they can cast divine?

Right underneath their 'Ability by Age' table. It's easy to miss; gods know that I missed it the first time I DM'd a blue dragon.

[Sudain]

Wow! Thank you. That will drastically impact spell selection for those. :)

[Particle_Man]

So, you were basically complaining about something you had never read? And you think that's okay?

1) I read it a long time ago and forgot.
2) I hereby I admit I got that part wrong. Now you must be happy forever. :smallsmile:

3) Note the smiley icon both in this post and my last one.

[Particle_Man]

On Duskblades, there's a FR 'Class Chronicles' article on the wizards website which expands a bit beyond the night-and-day and why there's so few left of them. :smallamused:

When the army of Aryvandaar invaded Shantel Othreier in -10,900, the heavily armored spellblade contingent was faced with a terrible decision.
[...]
Before the war council could resolve this thorny question, a fast-moving orc horde fell upon both armies. The loyalists stayed with the Aryvandaaran forces, slaughtering elf and orc alike.
[...]
Afterward, the warriors who slew indiscriminately became known as duskblades. They received this name because their contingent broke through the Shantel Othreier line at dusk, cresting a hill toward victory. Survivors of the enemy forces described these warriors as frightening blurs of magic and metal, shining in the fading orange sun like vengeful, fallen angels.
[...]
Those that cleaved through their brethren with sword and spell became ignominious symbols of Aryvandaaran treachery.

Niiiice. That is an interesting bit of fluff there, albeit FR-specific.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Wow! Thank you. That will drastically impact spell selection for those. :)

They can also choose spells from specific domains, as well - it varies by dragon, but they're (usually) thematically linked. Dragons of Eberron has a choice where a dragon can give up it's cleric casting for druidic casting as well, I believe.

[Hanuman]

I adore the fluff for justiciar as it's the only 3.5 class (aside from bloodhound) that lets you be a cowboy, and that's cool as hell.

While you do have a point, it does at least give full BA and d10s, which rogue does not, letting you use some more overtly martial strategies and letting you play dirty harry a lot more effectively.

you have not played this game in challenge mode until you have played a justiciar with vow of nonviolence. fluffing it as the rules of the wild west makes a lot more sense than the nonsense in boed, and is a lot less likely to draw the ire of your party as a cowboy talking about a righteous kill is a lot more understandable than the complete absence of an explanation present in the source.

honestly, the discrepancy between fluff and crunch that really gets under my skin is BoED. all of it, really, but especially stuff like touch of golden ice, ravages, and afflictions. I really don't need to say any more than that. they really piss me off

The whole point of justicular is hogtie. You grapple and cuff em in 1 round, leaving them helpless. Enchant a rope with Zone of Truth? Bam, wonderwoman. Have a level in samurai? Bam, Miko.

And for cops? Plenty of cool fantasy cops are available. How about a warforged peacekeeper? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0yuaUCKFII

[Particle_Man]

They can also choose spells from specific domains, as well - it varies by dragon, but they're (usually) thematically linked. Dragons of Eberron has a choice where a dragon can give up it's cleric casting for druidic casting as well, I believe.

So 7/10 of the "big 10" dragon types can use cleric spells in their sorcerer spell-slots, but 0/10 sorcerers can? Are all sorcerers descended from Black, Green and White dragons? :smallsmile:

[mikau013]

So 7/10 of the "big 10" dragon types can use cleric spells in their sorcerer spell-slots, but 0/10 sorcerers can? Are all sorcerers descended from Black, Green and White dragons? :smallsmile:

Just because many sorcerers claim to be descended from dragons doesn't actually mean that they are :smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

On a unrelated note, nice to see you hanging around, Fax. Haven't seen you for a while..

Been busy with the baby, job hunting, and with making mods for Dungeons of Dredmor.

[Venger]

Prestige classes with non errata'd prerequesites. Like the one wanting Point Blank Shot and Far Shot but never will properly get use out of them from complete adventurer.

that's invisible blade. the original version was a 10 level long prestige class that used throwing. to pad out the book it was split into 2 5 lvl prcs, invisible blade and master thrower, but they forgot to delete the ranged prereqs for IB.

see if you can find the original 10 level version online. I've seen it at least once, but was unable to mine a link for you. it's pretty cool.


Most PsC in just about every book.

what is PsC? I use these boards a lot and haven't seen this acronym before



The whole point of justicular is hogtie. You grapple and cuff em in 1 round, leaving them helpless. Enchant a rope with Zone of Truth? Bam, wonderwoman. Have a level in samurai? Bam, Miko.

And for cops? Plenty of cool fantasy cops are available. How about a warforged peacekeeper? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0yuaUCKFII

hogtie is undisputedly awesome, and it makes pumping your grapple check a lot more important and gives you an excuse to put ranks in use rope (never trust anyone who has ranks in use rope)

I love that song. it's so great.

[Particle_Man]

what is PsC? I use these boards a lot and haven't seen this acronym before

Either that was a typo for PrC or maybe some reference to psionic prestige classes.

[grarrrg]

what is PsC? I use these boards a lot and haven't seen this acronym before

I think it means PreStige Class...

[Venger]

Other than that? Assassin's Death Attack has always annoyed the hell out of me. Not necessarily because it sucks so badly (though it does). But because of the bolded portion:



So your whole class concept is built around stealth, avoiding detection, knowing where to precisely target your mark, attacking them, then getting away with it - but for some reason you can only do that with a melee weapon and not an arrow or a thrown weapon.

the reason for this has nothing to do with fluff and everything to do with crunch (a trend with these thus far) it's an insurance policy that noob dms will not kill players with ranged death attacks from assassins hiding in plain sight. it has the unhappy side effect of gimping pc assassins, but that's necessary in D&Ds system of checks and balances. it can't give a potent SoD without your DM having access too, so they check these things, sometimes too much as with assassin.

check out iron chef's assassin competition to see how high you can pump the death attack DC. half the people got it in the 40s.

[Hyde]

Aw, nobody liked the Gundam. Hyde is sad.

[DemonRoach]

What's next, "my anger lets me punch time"?



How could you not want to play that? :smallbiggrin:

[Feytalist]

(never trust anyone who has ranks in use rope)

I've seen that quote before, but damn it makes me laugh every time :smallbiggrin:


It would be a shame if one of us did not at least mention The Truenamer. Truenaming is such a great idea, and then they went and totally killed its execution with silly mechanics and two totally silly and confusing "Laws". The universe doesn't like me saying the same word twice in a row? Oh, okay. :smallannoyed:

[Kuulvheysoon]

I've seen that quote before, but damn it makes me laugh every time :smallbiggrin:


It would be a shame if one of us did not at least mention The Truenamer. Truenaming is such a great idea, and then they went and totally killed its execution with silly mechanics and two totally silly and confusing "Laws". The universe doesn't like me saying the same word twice in a row? Oh, okay. :smallannoyed:

Well, I can see it making sense (from a fluff perspective): Using a specific effect more than once puts undue strain on the weave of space/time (like stretching an elastic too many times). The crunch of truenaming... *shudder*.

Shadowcasting is another one. I mean, they're supposed to be all master-of-darkness-full-casters, but without access to bonus spells, they kinda fall flat. Not to mention everything else wrong with them...

[Fineous Orlon]

The fact that elves have a negative constitution modifier is an annoying flavor/ crunch disconnect for me.

Elves are the longest lived race. This means that they MUST be hard to kill, and in a variety of ways. They must resist disease and poisons fairly well, and not commonly get cancer, etc. Any long lived race should have, at worst, an average constitution, and should probably get a positive constitution modifier.

Long lived races should not be frail, it makes NO sense. Plus, the preferred class of elves is the hit-point-challenged wizard. A negative constitution modifier would only make sense for a short-lived wizard-preferred race.

When I DM, elves get their usual positive Dex mod, as that is traditional, and is in a lot of the fluff.

Using other aspects of the description of elves, notably their being short and slim, I give elves a -2 strength modifier, for more flavorful [in line with the fluff] crunch.

[deuxhero]

If the fluff was based on if the elves live long timewise breed because they need more time to propagate because they are easily killed, that would be interesting and make sense, but they didn't do that.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You can't Iron Heart Surge a Charmed, Dominated, Stunned, Dazed, etc. effect, but you can IHS something like a web... Fortunately this one's somewhat easy to fix.

The fact that elves have a negative constitution modifier is an annoying flavor/ crunch disconnect for me.

Elves are the longest lived race. This means that they MUST be hard to kill, and in a variety of ways. They must resist disease and poisons fairly well, and not commonly get cancer, etc. Any long lived race should have, at worst, an average constitution, and should probably get a positive constitution modifier.

Long lived races should not be frail, it makes NO sense. Plus, the preferred class of elves is the hit-point-challenged wizard. A negative constitution modifier would only make sense for a short-lived wizard-preferred race.

When I DM, elves get their usual positive Dex mod, as that is traditional, and is in a lot of the fluff.

Using other aspects of the description of elves, notably their being short and slim, I give elves a -2 strength modifier, for more flavorful [in line with the fluff] crunch.You could make a sociological argument that, much like RL humans, Elves have developed techniques to avoid plague-like diseases and other hazards in their homelands. Heartier races such as Orcs suffer disproportionately, and hence tend to die earlier. Their organs could work in such a way that they can't exert as much at a given time, but they wear down more slowly. As far as late stage viruses and wasting illnesses go... there's always Remove Disease, and of course, there's a reason the PHB lists maximum age and not average.

[Hirax]

I've always thought a charisma penalty would have made more sense for core elves, given that they're described as aloof and snobby.

[Particle_Man]

Maybe it is possible to live long as an elf, but few elves reach that age because they die of something else first (disease, orcs, etc.). So there would be a very few very old elves, but most elves don't live much longer than humans? But then starting age would need to be fixed. Unless elves have a lot of children but most of them die before maturity?

On a similar note, that could explain why Papa Smurf is pretty much the only one of his generation. :)

[Rubik]

I've always thought a charisma penalty would have made more sense for core elves, given that they're described as aloof and snobby.They're also Good-aligned, but they're xenophobic racists of the Nth degree.

According to the alignment books, racism is Evil.

Unless, of course, you're an elf. Or 'they' are marked as okay to discriminate against (see: anyone with green/gray/blue/red/otherwise polychromatic skin/scales/etc).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

They're also Good-aligned, but they're xenophobic racists of the Nth degree.

According to the alignment books, racism is Evil.

Unless, of course, you're an elf.Considering the kind of stuff adventurers do to other races, I don't think D&D takes racism (or is it speciesism?) all that seriously.

[Drelua]

They're also Good-aligned, but they're xenophobic racists of the Nth degree.

According to the alignment books, racism is Evil.

Unless, of course, you're an elf. Or 'they' are marked as okay to discriminate against (see: anyone with green/gray/blue/red/otherwise polychromatic skin/scales/etc).

Hey, don't forget dwarves. They have racism as a racial feature. Sure, it's mostly against approved species, but some giants are good, like storm giants, not that that's the main type of giant they're known to fight. Besides, they don't feel any better about elves than elves do against them.

[Fineous Orlon]

Sorry I was so wordy:

If you live a long time as a people, you have pretty good immune systems, and your bodies heal well.

Ergo, your race does not, or should not, carry a constitution penalty.

************************************************** ******

Back to wordiness...

Races that live a long time [fluff AND crunch] and have racially developed outlooks based on long life [fluff] should not have a negative constitution modifier [crunch] because that gives in-game, mechanical reasons [crunch] that said race are not hardy and will not live a long time [easily foreseen, or logically predictable consequences of crunch], to maintain internal game logic and consistency.

Elves ARE described as short and slim [fluff], therefore, a strength penalty makes more sense. Further the 'frail' bit could easily apply to either health or strength, so a lower strength could still be accurate.

[Cyrion]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

The names or origins of the weapons may be exotic, but absolutely nothing about the crunch for a large number of exotic weapons is actually exotic. Most don't do extra damage, give you extra reach, have special effects, etc. The elven exotic weapons are a particularly aweful example. In what way is a +1 on the critical range of the elven thinblade a worthwhile trade for a feat? And the elven courtblade? It actually does less damage than its greatsword counterpart in exchange for that +1 on critical range.

They're even exotic weapons for elves!

Stupid and annoying (but fortunately, easily fixed)!

[Venger]

They're also Good-aligned, but they're xenophobic racists of the Nth degree.

According to the alignment books, racism is Evil.

Unless, of course, you're an elf. Or 'they' are marked as okay to discriminate against (see: anyone with green/gray/blue/red/otherwise polychromatic skin/scales/etc).

don't be silly. in D&D, since everything is the opposite of real life, racism is Good (capitalised to denote game term since good/evil are opposites of their real-world counterparts in D&D) the relevant text on page 30 of savage species says that while Neutral or Good communities will drive out "monsters" and their friends, Evil communities won't.

racism has always been explicitly condoned by the rules. you can literally judge with 100% accuracy whether dragons are Good or Evil by the color of their skin. if that's not racist, I don't know what is

[gomipile]

... since good/evil are opposites of their real-world counterparts in D&D)

Evil (with a capital E) is also racist. The average Chaotic Evil NPC would, I think, be considered evil(lower case e) in the real world. So the respective definitions are not identical, but they are certainly not opposite either.


... you can literally judge with 100% accuracy whether dragons are Good or Evil by the color of their skin. if that's not racist, I don't know what is

Except in Ebberon...

[Yuki Akuma]

Except in Ebberon...

...Or every setting, because "Always Chaotic Evil", as a game term, does not actually mean "always Chaotic Evil".

It means "95% Chaotic Evil" or something along those lines.

[kts2008]

I won't call it "annoying" per se, but it's about the "Half" templates.

Half-celestial, to be specific. It claims that it can be applied to any corporeal, living creature yadda yadda, while the fluff makes it pretty clear it's talking about breeding.

And then they made War-forged.

One of my last characters in 3.5 proper was a Half-Celestial Warforged Paladin with the ranged smite feature.

His name was Wing Zero :)

This forum really need a thank button. This is the most lolzy thing I have herd all week

[JadePhoenix]

I see less 'disconnect' and more 'I don't know what racism means' here.

[Frozen_Feet]

... yeah. Racism is considered bad, because it's usually unjustified. In fantasy worlds, this often isn't the case. If you see (any of the various) demon(s), you can be almost 100% certain it eats babies for breakfast and must be destroyed ASAP.

There are hundreds of creatures in D&D which you are perfectly justified in killing on sight, because they are just that dangerous or fundamentally inimical to all that's good and holy.

[Venger]

... yeah. Racism is considered bad, because it's usually unjustified. In fantasy worlds, this often isn't the case. If you see (any of the various) demon(s), you can be almost 100% certain it eats babies for breakfast and must be destroyed ASAP.

There are hundreds of creatures in D&D which you are perfectly justified in killing on sight, because they are just that dangerous or fundamentally inimical to all that's good and holy.

okay, I see your point.

my earlier post was a little ambiguous. from an in-universe perspective, you are right, and red dragons for example are always evil aligned, so it's logical to assume that one would be unscrupulous and should be looked on with suspicion.

I was addressing the fact that there's an in-game rule that tells you to judge on skin (or scale) color makes me uncomfortable as a player and DM, so I generally don't include many dragons (for example) in my games. I sort of dislike the "always (x alignment)" for monsters because it limits one's storytelling options as a DM given the breakdown of the party.

anyway, I don't want to turn the thread into an alignment debate, they always get locked, and I don't want to derail, I just wanted to clarify my position since I realized that it might have been unclear.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

The names or origins of the weapons may be exotic, but absolutely nothing about the crunch for a large number of exotic weapons is actually exotic. Most don't do extra damage, give you extra reach, have special effects, etc. The elven exotic weapons are a particularly aweful example. In what way is a +1 on the critical range of the elven thinblade a worthwhile trade for a feat? And the elven courtblade? It actually does less damage than its greatsword counterpart in exchange for that +1 on critical range.

They're even exotic weapons for elves!

Stupid and annoying (but fortunately, easily fixed)!

Actually, the Elven Courtblade is one of the few weapons that I DO think is worth the feat. You forgot to mention that you can finesse it.

[NeoSeraphi]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

The names or origins of the weapons may be exotic, but absolutely nothing about the crunch for a large number of exotic weapons is actually exotic. Most don't do extra damage, give you extra reach, have special effects, etc. The elven exotic weapons are a particularly aweful example. In what way is a +1 on the critical range of the elven thinblade a worthwhile trade for a feat? And the elven courtblade? It actually does less damage than its greatsword counterpart in exchange for that +1 on critical range.

They're even exotic weapons for elves!

Stupid and annoying (but fortunately, easily fixed)!

The elven blades are considered light weapons for the purpose of the Weapon Finesse feat, which means that elves may apply their Dexterity modifier to their attack rolls with these weapons, despite them being much more powerful than a rapier or a shortsword. It's actually quite a very useful feature, especially if your DM rules that the elven courtblade lets you add 1 1/2 times your Dexterity modifier to damage with the Champion of Correllon Larenthian prestige class.

[Jeff the Green]

"Primitive" communities in both real life and fiction are often both tradition-bound and communitarian. Barbarians cannot be lawful.

Mastering singing, instrumental music, or dancing requires years upon years of dedicated practice. Bards cannot be lawful.

[Flickerdart]

"Primitive" communities in both real life and fiction are often both tradition-bound and communitarian. Barbarians cannot be lawful.

Mastering singing, instrumental music, or dancing requires years upon years of dedicated practice. Bards cannot be lawful.
Lawful and Chaotic are so poorly defined that you could exclude persistence from being a Lawful trait.

[Rubik]

Lawful and Chaotic are so poorly defined that you could exclude persistence from being a Lawful trait.As well as dedication to community and tradition!

[Clawhound]

Every single "Knight of ..." class that requires you to be lawful simply because the prestige class has the word "knight" in it, but whose benefits otherwise have nothing to do with being lawful.

[Cyrion]

The elven blades are considered light weapons for the purpose of the Weapon Finesse feat, which means that elves may apply their Dexterity modifier to their attack rolls with these weapons, despite them being much more powerful than a rapier or a shortsword. It's actually quite a very useful feature, especially if your DM rules that the elven courtblade lets you add 1 1/2 times your Dexterity modifier to damage with the Champion of Correllon Larenthian prestige class.

True, they are finessable. So now we've used TWO feats on a run-of-the-mill weapon (they are comparable to a short sword and a long sword, and an under-damaged greatsword). I'm still not convinced the crunch cost is worth the fluff-cool "exotic" label.

[grarrrg]

It occurs to me, that maybe the problem with the Superstitious (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/superstitious) Barbarian is NOT one of flavor, but more "designer can't friggin read".

Follow me on this one....

The benefits given from the Archetype are Bonuses in the Surprise round, and every Vision/Non-Vision-Vision ability in the game.
So the Barbarian knows where you are, and they are prepared if you suddenly jump out at them.

Sounds more like a Paranoid Barbarian to me.

What's another word for Paranoid?

Suspicious.

Hmmm... say it out loud... sound similar to Superstitious... Kind of written the same way too... "Su......ious"....

Hmmm.....

[Randomguy]

Maybe it's short for super suspicious?



I've always hated the arcane duelist online PrC. Masters of blade and magic! Poor BAB, no spellcasting. The other abilities aren't horrible though.

[JadePhoenix]

I was addressing the fact that there's an in-game rule that tells you to judge on skin (or scale) color makes me uncomfortable as a player and DM, so I generally don't include many dragons (for example) in my games. I sort of dislike the "always (x alignment)" for monsters because it limits one's storytelling options as a DM given the breakdown of the party.


Sorry, but I'll have to be blunt: you have to read the alignment rules more carefully. "Always X" does not mean 100% members of that race are under alignment X. There is no fluff/crunch disconnect here, there is only misreading.

[Venger]

Sorry, but I'll have to be blunt: you have to read the alignment rules more carefully. "Always X" does not mean 100% members of that race are under alignment X. There is no fluff/crunch disconnect here, there is only misreading.

no need to apologize, I'm aware of the rule about how "always x alignment" doesn't mean 100%:


Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The
creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or
come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals
to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique
or rare exceptions.

[Talakeal]

Sorry, but I'll have to be blunt: you have to read the alignment rules more carefully. "Always X" does not mean 100% members of that race are under alignment X. There is no fluff/crunch disconnect here, there is only misreading.

Using the word "Always" to mean something less than 100% is, itself, a disconnect between the definition of the word and the rule it describes.

[Venger]

Using the word "Always" to mean something less than 100% is, itself, a disconnect between the definition of the word and the rule it describes.

well, yeah, yeah it is.

another thing is regarding spell durations. Permanent does not actually mean permanent, since it's vulnerable to dispel. instantaneous is the real "permanent" since it can't be dispelled.

[hymer]

instantaneous [...] can't be dispelled.

Break Enchantment does just that. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm

[Yuki Akuma]

Break Enchantment isn't dispelling.

Yes, it sounds silly, but it isn't. It's Break Enchantment.

Instantaneous spells require no magic to continue to work. Therefore, dispel magic can only disrupt them as they're cast (as a counterspell). Break Enchantment doesn't disrupt the magic, it reverses whatever change the magic made.

"Permanent" means the magic stays there. Permanently. And, as magic, it can be disrupted by Dispel Magic.

[Philistine]

Four pages in and nobody's mentioned "Fighters are the masters of armed combat" yet?

[Yuki Akuma]

Fighters. Just...fighters.

Look at their fluff. Now look at me. Now look at their crunch. Now look at me. Now look at their skills. Now look at me. Now look at the designers. NOW HIT THEM WITH A HAMMER.

This guy pretty much did. Just without the quote.

First page.

[Rubik]

This guy pretty much did. Just without the quote.

First page.Yyyyyup.

Also, the designers had no idea how to distinguish between Instantaneous (instantaneous) and Instantaneous (permanent). Neither did they understand what Range and Area were, since most of the time they used them completely wrong. Most AoEs like Lightning Bolt can't be Widened unless they're also Enlarged unless you do something weird like cast it with you in the center, with the bolt going two directions out.

Also, EVERYTHING in the game assumes you're using Core races unless it's specific to a certain race. For instance, you can't cast Fireball unless you have fingertips for the fire-bead to pop out of. Dragons can't cast them because they don't have fingers. Nagas can't because they don't have hands (or arms). It's stupid.

[Yuki Akuma]

How about that blizzard spell in Frostburn, with an Area larger than its Range?

That's fun.

[Venger]

Break Enchantment does just that. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm
perhaps I should clarify. permanent spells are vulnerable to the "dispel magic" (and greater) spell, whereas instantaneous spells do not.

Break Enchantment isn't dispelling.

Yes, it sounds silly, but it isn't. It's Break Enchantment.

Instantaneous spells require no magic to continue to work. Therefore, dispel magic can only disrupt them as they're cast (as a counterspell). Break Enchantment doesn't disrupt the magic, it reverses whatever change the magic made.

"Permanent" means the magic stays there. Permanently. And, as magic, it can be disrupted by Dispel Magic.

permanent spells are vulnerable to antimagic field, right? and they detect if someone has arcane sight/ detect magic/ etc. up, IIRC whereas neither of these things is true for instantaneous spells.

[Yuki Akuma]

permanent spells are vulnerable to antimagic field, right? and they detect if someone has arcane sight/ detect magic/ etc. up, IIRC whereas neither of these things is true for instantaneous spells.

Yes.

Think of it like electricity.

Permanent spells are electronic machines. They require constant electrical power to function. This means that being hit with an EMP (Dispel Magic) or walking into an area of high magnetic radiation (Antimagic Field) can mess with it.

Meanwhile, Instantaneous spells are electrolysis. They require electricity to perform the process, but once the electricity goes away, the effect stays behind - the aluminium doesn't turn back into ore, say.

[Venger]

Yes.

Think of it like electricity.

Permanent spells are electronic machines. They require constant electrical power to function. This means that being hit with an EMP (Dispel Magic) or walking into an area of high magnetic radiation (Antimagic Field) can mess with it.

Meanwhile, Instantaneous spells are electrolysis. They require electricity to perform the process, but once the electricity goes away, the effect stays behind - the aluminium doesn't turn back into ore, say.


good analogy. one thing though, that's electroplating, electrolysis is when you get your hair lasered off with needles (but the analogy still works)

[Yuki Akuma]

good analogy. one thing though, that's electroplating, electrolysis is when you get your hair lasered off with needles (but the analogy still works)

Electrolysis is used to extract aluminium from its ore. The method was devised in 1886.

Electrolysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis) is the process of using an electrical current to drive a non-spontaneous chemical reaction.

(In electrology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrology), the actual removal of the hair is also called electrolysis, just to confuse people.)

[grarrrg]

How about that blizzard spell in Frostburn, with an Area larger than its Range?

That's fun.

That actually could make perfect flavor sense.
The whole point of spells is you (typically) have to be 'near enough' to cast them right? Well, summoning a GIANT STORM would most likely put you inside of it anyway.

[Yuki Akuma]

That actually could make perfect flavor sense.
The whole point of spells is you (typically) have to be 'near enough' to cast them right? Well, summoning a GIANT STORM would most likely put you inside of it anyway.

You don't understand.

A spell's Area cannot extend outside of its Range. If you shoot a Fireball to the extent of its Range, you'll get a hemisphere, not a sphere.

(Yes, it's weird. No, it doesn't make any sense. But them's the rules. Specifically, these rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range).)

[grarrrg]

You don't understand.

A spell's Area cannot extend outside of its Range. If you shoot a Fireball to the extent of its Range, you'll get a hemisphere, not a sphere.

(Yes, it's weird. No, it doesn't make any sense. But them's the rules. Specifically, these rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range).)

Apparently I spend too much time underground.

But yes, LOGICALLY based on the REAL-LIFE DEFINITIONS of the words "area" and "range" I would probably be correct....

[Yuki Akuma]

Hey look! An annoying Flavour/Crunch disconnect!

It's almost like it's on-topic or something. :smallwink:

[nedz]

Consider applying Sculpt spell to Lightning Bolt or Scintillating Sphere.
Both spells do the same damage of exactly the same type, and both are the of the same level; yet because Scintillating Sphere has a greater range it is a much better choice for sculpting. In fact I can Scupt it into exactly the same area a lightning bolt, but I cannot do this the other way around.

[Mystify]

Consider applying Sculpt spell to Lightning Bolt or Scintillating Sphere.
Both spells do the same damage of exactly the same type, and both are the of the same level; yet because Scintillating Sphere has a greater range it is a much better choice for sculpting. In fact I can Scupt it into exactly the same area a lightning bolt, but I cannot do this the other way around.
Or in general, the resulting area of a sculpted spell is completely independent of the area of the original spell. Sculpt a huge spell that covers 100 miles radius? You get a little 20ft spread. Sculpt a tiny spell that covers 1 square? Same spread. If it was really sculpting it, the areas should be related.

[nedz]

Or in general, the resulting area of a sculpted spell is completely independent of the area of the original spell. Sculpt a huge spell that covers 100 miles radius? You get a little 20ft spread. Sculpt a tiny spell that covers 1 square? Same spread. If it was really sculpting it, the areas should be related.

Sorry I wasn't entirely clear - Its the range I was referring too. You can sculpt a lightning bolt into a sphere, but its still limited to 120' range.
But yes, Sculpting doesn't quite work how you might think.

[Mystify]

Sorry I wasn't entirely clear - Its the range I was referring too. You can sculpt a lightning bolt into a sphere, but its still limited to 120' range.
But yes, Sculpting doesn't quite work how you might think.
I understood what you meant, I was making a companion point.

[grarrrg]

Hey look! An annoying Flavour/Crunch disconnect!

It's almost like it's on-topic or something. :smallwink:

On-topic?
ABORT! ABORT!!

[Need_A_Life]

A cleric being proficient with heavy armour.
They're priests, doling out blessings and healing injuries of the faithful. In a full-plate. :smallconfused:

And if clerics are supposed to be holy warriors, where does that leave Paladins? :smallannoyed:

Rangers having spells. Did I miss something about how to track people and kill them (to death!) or what? Or are they all supposed to be like the character most recently portrayed by Viggo Mortensen? :smallannoyed:

Or how about two-weapon fighting makes you better at killing things, rather than making you better at defending? :smallsigh:

Or how Vow of Poverty means that clerics can't usee a Holy Symbol, but are allowed to use a component pouch, 38 light crossbows and 74 daggers? :smallconfused:

Or how monk is supposed to be a kung-fu master? With Pathfinder, the Tetori archetype makes them decent Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu'ers, and the Hungry Ghost archetypes makes them playable (those two are mutually exclusive, by the way). :smallyuk:
In 3.5, they present a 2-lvl dip before going into Psychic Warrior, if you want to be a master of unarmed combat. :smallannoyed:

Psionics. Why do they have an obsession with crystals, crowns and masks? They're supposed to kill things with their mind(bullet)s, not look like a tacky rapper with lots of "bling." :smallmad:

Wild Elves, Grey Elves, Sun Elves, Dark Elves, Snow Elves etc.
What the **** is going on here? Elves are supposed to be long-lived xenophobes, who should have less subraces than anyone else, not a dozen more than Goblins. :smallfurious:

And Humans? Every time a new splat comes up, there are specially adapted to the area: Neanderthals (Frostburn), Illumians (Races of Destiny), Azurins (Magic of Incarnum), Aquatic Humans (Stormwrack), Elans (Expanded Psionics Handbook) and Eeevil Humans (Book of Vile Darkness).
Seems like humans are so mutable that the moment they meet something new they spontaneously adapt to the area :smallsigh:

[Mystify]

Or how about two-weapon fighting makes you better at killing things, rather than making you better at defending? :smallsigh:


Thats what I'd expect from two weapons. I don't see why a weapon in your offhand would be better than a sheild. Really, it is messed up, but not for the reasons you say. Its much easier to make a THW deal more damage than your TWF.
I can't think of any game where TWF is a defensive boost instead of an offensive one. Frequently, its explicitly lowering your defense, like in skyrim.
But anyways, there is no flavor that TWF should give you better defenses, so the crunch doesn't mismatch it.

[Tenno Seremel]

Psionics. Why do they have an obsession with crystals, crowns and masks?
They are on a quest to build fantasy utopia obviously.

[Feytalist]

Thats what I'd expect from two weapons. I don't see why a weapon in your offhand would be better than a sheild. Really, it is messed up, but not for the reasons you say. Its much easier to make a THW deal more damage than your TWF.
I can't think of any game where TWF is a defensive boost instead of an offensive one. Frequently, its explicitly lowering your defense, like in skyrim.
But anyways, there is no flavor that TWF should give you better defenses, so the crunch doesn't mismatch it.

Normally I know better than to bring the real world into D&D mechanics, but in this case I think I know where this is from:

In the real world, off-hand weapons such as the main-gauche and parrying dagger, and even Chinese butterfly swords, were used for defence; for parrying (hence "parrying dagger"), to catch or trap you opponents' blade, and so forth. It was not meant for attacking, and was used as such in only very extraordinary circumstances.

The idea of two weapons equaling more offensive power is strictly a fantasy and RPG construct.

[Jeff the Green]

And Humans? Every time a new splat comes up, there are specially adapted to the area: Neanderthals (Frostburn), Illumians (Races of Destiny), Azurins (Magic of Incarnum), Aquatic Humans (Stormwrack), Elans (Expanded Psionics Handbook) and Eeevil Humans (Book of Vile Darkness).
Seems like humans are so mutable that the moment they meet something new they spontaneously adapt to the area :smallsigh:

Actually, that makes perfect sense. Humans a) have very short generation times (~16 years) compared to the other races (~21-111 years, except for half-orcs) and b) are the most common race (in most settings). This almost guarantees that they will be the fastest race to evolve in response to different environments.

[Aharon]

Most of the prerequisites for the Blackguard PrC.

The +6 BAB makes this only really viable for a character with a full BAB progression; but he ALSO needs 5 ranks in Hide? Okay, I get that Evil shouldn't be out in the open too much or it'll get smacked, but those 5 ranks would take a paladin or fighter a few levels to buy.

And the feats... Power Attack, I don't mind; most melee builds will have that, anyway. But Cleave and Improved Sunder? "Yeah, so you've been burning good temples and pillaging convents; but I'm afraid unless you know how to smash an enemy's weapon, you're just not evil enough to join us."

Just... why? :smallconfused:

It's not the worst possible entry: taking rogue 1, you get Sneak attack anyway, might as well use it some more, plus makes sense from a fluff perspective (Paladin using EEEVIL methods), from a certain point of view.

[Venger]

Rangers having spells. Did I miss something about how to track people and kill them (to death!) or what? Or are they all supposed to be like the character most recently portrayed by Viggo Mortensen? :smallannoyed:

Um, yes, apparently you did miss something :smalltongue: 3e came out in 2000. 3.5 came out in 2003. what happened in between those years? the LoTR trilogy got released and all rangers are now viggo mortenson (if melee) or orlando bloom (if ranged) the manyshot chain was explicitly designed to let players do what bloom did in the movie, shooting arrows at a bunch of guys at once and killing elephants and stuff. now if only archery weren't unsustainable in this edition. oh well


elans
while your point is sort of understandable with the others, I'm going to have to disagree with this one. elans are quite explicitly not human anymore since they can no longer reproduce sexually with humans. humans do have too many nice things though, but that's what you get when you have a game designed by humans for humans.

[Fax Celestis]

Rangers having spells. Did I miss something about how to track people and kill them (to death!) or what? Or are they all supposed to be like the character most recently portrayed by Viggo Mortensen? :smallannoyed:

Considering Aragorn was the inspiration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29) for the original Ranger class, your answer is "yes".

[Marlowe]

Oooh! Oooh! Me! Me!

Loki, the master of Fire, whose symbol is a flame, does not actually get Fire as a Domain.

...I thought it was annoying.

[Particle_Man]

Then there is the fact that a cleric either worships a god to get access to two of that god's domains, and must follow some alignment restrictions, or worship no god, get access to the same two domains (or indeed any two domains) whether the cleric is lawful good or chaotic evil (with the exception of the "alignment" domains, I think).

Yet it is the same god that is meant to be powering the domains anyhow? If not, what do the gods *do* for clerics, exactly, that clerics can't do without gods?

So if you want the fabled Travel and Luck domains but want to be lawful good, just be an "atheist" cleric?

[Yuki Akuma]

Getting divine spells from a God is probably easier than getting them directly from the source.

Back in 2e, the Athar (Sigil Faction, basically agnostics) didn't start actually getting Priest spells until high levels, for instance.

[Flickerdart]

Devotion to a deity also gives you affiliation benefits (such as cool PrCs or a church that has your back in dire circumstances).

[OracleofWuffing]

Or how Vow of Poverty means that clerics can't usee a Holy Symbol, but are allowed to use a component pouch, 38 light crossbows and 74 daggers? :smallconfused:
Oh, that's nothing. Vow of Purity won't let you eat cooked meat, but you can certainly eat living meat!:smallbiggrin:

[Yuki Akuma]

Oh, that's nothing. Vow of Purity won't let you eat cooked meat, but you can certainly eat living meat!:smallbiggrin:

Only if it doesn't cause undue suffering, which is... hard.

If you commit a single Evil act you lose the feat, after all. And causing suffering is Evil. :smallwink:

[OracleofWuffing]

If you commit a single Evil act you lose the feat, after all. And causing suffering is Evil. :smallwink:
Unless it's by a ravage or affliction.:smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

A cleric being proficient with heavy armour.
They're priests, doling out blessings and healing injuries of the faithful. In a full-plate. :smallconfused:

Clerics have always been warrior priests in the vein of some historical figure from either English history or the history of European-Levantine relations. That's why they originally were not allowed to use bladed weapons in earlier editions.

They're certainly better at being a Church Militant than Paladins.

Which is another thing.

Clerics are better at both fighting and magic when compared to paladins.

[Fineous Orlon]

Clerics have always been warrior priests in the vein of some historical figure from either English history or the history of European-Levantine relations. That's why they originally were not allowed to use bladed weapons in earlier editions.

They're certainly better at being a Church Militant than Paladins.

Which is another thing.

Clerics are better at both fighting and magic when compared to paladins.

Yep. More than once as DM, I have said, if you want to be a Paladin, be a Cleric or Cleric/ Fighter [for those that insist on some nominal fighter-y aspect]. Takes care of the "Can I be a Paladin of a different alignment?" questions too.

Sorry, annoying flavor/ crunch disconnects: the picture of Caspian Lamont vs. the Abjurant Champion rules is my next choice.

[Flickerdart]

Cleric into Ordained Champion, Prestige Paladin, Knight of the Raven or Hospitaler are fair mid-op alternatives to a Fighter dip.

[Rubik]

Ack! Oodles and oodles of reposting...err...poodles?

Meh. Poetry is overrated.

[Fineous Orlon]

Ack! Oodles and oodles of reposting...err...poodles?

Meh. Poetry is overrated.

Wow. That was me, and I have not had posting probs like that since dial-up days.

Should be fixed now.

[Rubik]

Wow. That was me, and I have not had posting probs like that since dial-up days.

Should be fixed now.I have a lot of problems these days with GiantiP's servers vomiting all over my posts, so this happens to me a lot.

I just make sure I go back and delete the extras (which sometimes takes a few hours because the servers can't handle the load at certain times).

In short, GiantitP seriously needs an upgrade.

[Mystify]

I have a lot of problems these days with GiantiP's servers vomiting all over my posts, so this happens to me a lot.

I just make sure I go back and delete the extras (which sometimes takes a few hours because the servers can't handle the load at certain times).

In short, GiantitP seriously needs an upgrade.

Hear, hear!

[TuggyNE]

I have a lot of problems these days with GiantiP's servers vomiting all over my posts, so this happens to me a lot.

I just make sure I go back and delete the extras (which sometimes takes a few hours because the servers can't handle the load at certain times).

In short, GiantitP seriously needs an upgrade.

Hopefully, the Kickstarter million will come in handy there. :smallcool:

[Chronos]

Others have mentioned Truenamers, but a specific complaint there: The class is all about mastering the world's most difficult language, found in musty, ancient tomes, and depending on subtle nuances of sound, and using that language to produce spell-like abilities. Therefore, they obviously don't get Speak Language, Decipher Script, Listen, or Spellcraft as class skills.

[gorfnab]

The spell Darkness does not create darkness. It creates shadowy illumination. Even Deeper Darkness does not create darkness. It creates a slightly larger area of shadowy illumination. So if you're in a pitch black room you can cast Darkness/ Deeper Darkness and at least have some ability to see.


Darkness
Evocation [Darkness]
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Object touched
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw:
None Spell Resistance: No

This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. All creatures in the area gain concealment (20% miss chance). Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness.

Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level. Higher level light spells are not affected by darkness.

If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed.

Darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower spell level.

Arcane Material Component: A bit of bat fur and either a drop of pitch or a piece of coal.


Deeper Darkness
Evocation [Darkness]
Level: Clr 3
Duration: One day/level (D)

This spell functions like darkness, except that the object radiates shadowy illumination in a 60-foot radius and the darkness lasts longer.

Daylight brought into an area of deeper darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.

Deeper darkness counters and dispels any light spell of equal or lower level, including daylight and light.


In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.


DARKNESS

Darkvision allows many characters and monsters to see perfectly well without any light at all, but characters with normal vision (or low-light vision, for that matter) can be rendered completely blind by putting out the lights. Torches or lanterns can be blown out by sudden gusts of subterranean wind, magical light sources can be dispelled or countered, or magical traps might create fields of impenetrable darkness.

In many cases, some characters or monsters might be able to see, while others are blinded. For purposes of the following points, a blinded creature is one who simply can’t see through the surrounding darkness.

—Creatures blinded by darkness lose the ability to deal extra damage due to precision (for example, a ranger’s favored enemy or a sneak attack).

—Blinded creatures are hampered in their movement, and pay 2 squares of movement per square moved into (double normal cost). Blinded creatures can’t run or charge.

—All opponents have total concealment from a blinded creature, so the blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat. A blinded creature must first pinpoint the location of an opponent in order to attack the right square; if the blinded creature launches an attack without pinpointing its foe, it attacks a random square within its reach. For ranged attacks or spells against a foe whose location is not pinpointed, roll to determine which adjacent square the blinded creature is facing; its attack is directed at the closest target that lies in that direction.

—A blinded creature loses its Dexterity adjustment to AC and takes a –2 penalty to AC.

—A blinded creature takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks, including any with an armor check penalty. A creature blinded by darkness automatically fails any skill check relying on vision.

—Creatures blinded by darkness cannot use gaze attacks and are immune to gaze attacks.

A creature blinded by darkness can make a Listen check as a free action each round in order to locate foes (DC equal to opponents’ Move Silently checks). A successful check lets a blinded character hear an unseen creature “over there somewhere.” It’s almost impossible to pinpoint the location of an unseen creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 reveals the unseen creature’s square (but the unseen creature still has total concealment from the blinded creature).

—A blinded creature can grope about to find unseen creatures. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent squares using a standard action. If an unseen target is in the designated square, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has pinpointed the unseen creature’s current location. (If the unseen creature moves, its location is once again unknown.)

—If a blinded creature is struck by an unseen foe, the blinded character pinpoints the location of the creature that struck him (until the unseen creature moves, of course). The only exception is if the unseen creature has a reach greater than 5 feet (in which case the blinded character knows the location of the unseen opponent, but has not pinpointed him) or uses a ranged attack (in which case, the blinded character knows the general direction of the foe, but not his location).

—A creature with the scent ability automatically pinpoints unseen creatures within 5 feet of its location.

[JadePhoenix]

The spell Darkness does not create darkness.
That's the one thing I dislike about 3.0->3.5,what they did to this spell.

[big teej]

Then there is the fact that a cleric either worships a god to get access to two of that god's domains, and must follow some alignment restrictions, or worship no god, get access to the same two domains (or indeed any two domains) whether the cleric is lawful good or chaotic evil (with the exception of the "alignment" domains, I think).

Yet it is the same god that is meant to be powering the domains anyhow? If not, what do the gods *do* for clerics, exactly, that clerics can't do without gods?

So if you want the fabled Travel and Luck domains but want to be lawful good, just be an "atheist" cleric?

I prefer the term "abstaitionist" - one who abstains from worshipping the gods.

[Marlowe]

I think if Domains were given by a god instead of being a product of Clerical training then Favoured Souls would get them. But enough Theology.

The reason Rangers get spells is so they have a reason to not dump-stat wisdom. So there can be at least one member of the party if a decent spot check. Everybody else either is dumpstating Wisdom or doesn't have Spot as a class skill.

[Chronos]

Well, technically, the monk uses Wis and has Spot, too, though that's hardly relevant.

More relevant is the druid, since of course it's inconceivable that there be anything druids are bad at.

[eggs]

The reason Rangers get spells is so they have a reason to not dump-stat wisdom. So there can be at least one member of the party if a decent spot check. Everybody else either is dumpstating Wisdom or doesn't have Spot as a class skill.
1e Rangers had spells, but Wisdom had nothing to do with either perception or their casting.

I'm pretty sure it's just a legacy carryover with the wisdom thing being an interesting coincidence.

[Coidzor]

1e Rangers had spells, but Wisdom had nothing to do with either perception or their casting.

I'm pretty sure it's just a legacy carryover with the wisdom thing being an interesting coincidence.

Yeah, wisdom's just the stereotypical/default divine casting stat.

[Flickerdart]

There is one class (Unseelie Dark Hunter) that casts arcane WIS-based spells though. What were they thinking? Who knows?

[Yuki Akuma]

There is one class (Unseelie Dark Hunter) that casts arcane WIS-based spells though. What were they thinking? Who knows?

"Hey, there aren't any Wis-based arcane casters, we should make one"?

I mean, diversity is good.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah but it's a Fey-related spontaneous spellcaster. You'd think it would be a shoe-in for Charisma.

[JadePhoenix]

Yeah but it's a Fey-related spontaneous spellcaster. You'd think it would be a shoe-in for Charisma.

It's a Ranger prc. Maybe they wanted to avoid MAD.

[Ingus]

Orcs.
I mean: ugly, violent, tribalistic people who prefer wearing vivid colors that many humans would consider unpleasant, such as blood red, mustard yellow, yellow-green, and deep purple

It's me or this is a little queer?

ando also...

Orcs are proficient with all simple weapons, preferring those that cause the most damage in the least time. /.../ They enjoy attacking from concealment and setting ambushes, and they obey the rules of war (such as honoring a truce) only as long as it is convenient for them.

And this is a race with Intelligence penalty?


humans do have too many nice things though, but that's what you get when you have a game designed by humans for humans.

Racism issues again. I want a game designed by elves!

[TuggyNE]

Racism issues again. I want a game designed by elves!

That would not help your flavor/crunch problems with orcs. :smalltongue: Just saying.

[Arcane_Secrets]

I have a disconnect from Monster Manual III: the rejkars (lawful evil caribou with spells and decent intelligence).

"The creatures loathe the baatezu and their kin...They dream of someday turning their conquests into a power base from which they can seize all of Cania."

Then look at their SLA's. Shouldn't they be able to cast augury to know that they're kind of hopeless?

[TuggyNE]

I have a disconnect from Monster Manual III: the rejkars (lawful evil caribou with spells and decent intelligence).

"The creatures loathe the baatezu and their kin...They dream of someday turning their conquests into a power base from which they can seize all of Cania."

Then look at their SLA's. Shouldn't they be able to cast augury to know that they're kind of hopeless?

Augury only looks half an hour into the future at most.