[3.5] Druid vs. Fighter

[Mari01]

A friend and I recently got into a debate about who would between the two. As such, he's making an 8th level fighter vs. my 8th level druid. The books allowed are going to be Core only. How many different ways can I win this fight?

[Arbane]

Right off the top of my head:

Wildshape into a bird. Flit around out of sword range raining death.

Use Entangle. Stand back and throw spells.

Summon a zoo of low-level Nature's Allies to rip him up for you.

Heat Metal.

Wildshape into something nasty, buff up, and double-team him with your animal companion.

[Mari01]

Right off the top of my head:

Wildshape into a bird. Flit around out of sword range raining death.

Use Entangle. Stand back and throw spells.

Summon a zoo of low-level Nature's Allies to rip him up for you.

Heat Metal.

Wildshape into something nasty, buff up, and double-team him with your animal companion.

The only one of these I hadn't though of was Heat Metal. I suspect he may not wear metal armor for this one. Eh who cares though right? I can prepare it and then covert it into Nature's Ally if I dont need it. My biggest plan is probably bearpocalypse. Summon bears, wild shape bear, bear animal companion.

[CTrees]

Core only, 8th level? I suggest avoiding melee unless he goes ranged (then lion mode, engage!). You don't have wilding clasps, cant afford wild armor, and you dont have forms like fleshraker. You're going to be a little fragile in melee, basically.

Flying form+animal companion+summon natures ally+debuffs+ death from the skies wins.

[Gavinfoxx]

Use debuffs and battlefield control on him . Fly into a tree or something to cast and Summon. Remember casting a Summon Nature's Ally is a Full Round Action, so it's hard to fly when doing that. Sleet Storm, Fog Cloud, Spike Stones, Entangle -- those are your battlefield control. Get your Giant Crocodile to tank for you (Huge creatures have quite a bit of reach...), while you rain hell from the air, and summons from a tree. If the Fighter closes on the Crocodile despite the battlefield control, have the croc Grapple the fighter. Make sure the Croc has Barding.

[Mari01]

Core only, 8th level? I suggest avoiding melee unless he goes ranged (then lion mode, engage!). You don't have wilding clasps, cant afford wild armor, and you dont have forms like fleshraker. You're going to be a little fragile in melee, basically.

Flying form+animal companion+summon natures ally+debuffs+ death from the skies wins.

The biggest thing is proper feat planning. I'm well aware that Natural spell is needed at level 6 without a doubt. I'm thinking Improved Initiative as well to help ensure that I go first. Anything else?

[Gavinfoxx]

Spell Focus Conjuration
Augment Summoning
Natural Spell
Improved Initiative

Make sure to stat out all your Augment Summoning SNA's ahead of time.

[Coidzor]

Buff animal companion, have it grapple him. Summon grappling creatures using SNA. Have them join the grapple. Get him pinned and then torn to shreds by a bunch of bison or bears or whathaveyou.

[Grundy]

What is the setting? A 10 x 10 room? A coliseum? Cliffside?

[Mari01]

What is the setting? A 10 x 10 room? A coliseum? Cliffside?

That remains to be seen. I'm assuming coliseum or a room with a defined area.

[Gavinfoxx]

Does the DM rule that Entangle can work without plants available?

You need to know about the Z axis of the area... since you WILL be flying. A Dire Bat can hover as a Free Action.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040629a

"A creature with good maneuverability also can hover as free action. It can instead hover as a move action and, as part of that move action, can move at half speed in any direction it likes (including straight up, straight down, or backward). Before or after it moves, the hovering creature can turn to face any direction it likes. When it stops hovering, it can resume ordinary flight in any direction in which it could normally fly."

Do that and start casting lots of useful spells and summons and stuff.

[sonofzeal]

Summons are probably your best bet. That or grapple, but people are right - you're going to be hella fragile in melee, so only do that if you can guarantee grappling victory, which is an uphill battle considering his BAB will be better than yours and Strength is his primary attribute.

But yes, safest route is Augment Summoning + Natural Spell + Dire Bat Wildshape. Hang back, swarm him with summons, and laugh.

[Mari01]

Summons are probably your best bet. That or grapple, but people are right - you're going to be hella fragile in melee, so only do that if you can guarantee grappling victory, which is an uphill battle considering his BAB will be better than yours and Strength is his primary attribute.

But yes, safest route is Augment Summoning + Natural Spell + Dire Bat Wildshape. Hang back, swarm him with summons, and laugh.

As far as animal companion goes, am I better off upgrading or advancing someone like a wolf or riding dog to open up tripping options?

[Flickerdart]

Unfortunately, core means you can't summon as a standard action, so make sure you have him Entangled or otherwise occupied (by the teeth of your Animal Companion, perhaps) before starting to cast.

[Randomguy]

It's a druid. Against a fighter. At low levels, so he doesn't have enough wealth by level to even pretend he's got magic. This isn't a battle. It's slaughter.

The only place where the fighter has a chance to actually win is a 10 by 10 foot arena made entirely of plastic.

Include a potted plant in your equipment list. If there aren't any plants nearby, use that to entangle.

If it's in a cave or unknown envirement, then prepare spike growth or spike stones as a decent debuff.

Prepare wind wall in case he goes ranged.

If you want to blast, you could use fog cloud or obscuring mist to up your call lightning bolts from d6's to d10's.

If you fight to win, just grab a few scrolls of shapechange.

[sonofzeal]

As far as animal companion goes, am I better off upgrading or advancing someone like a wolf or riding dog to open up tripping options?
You're better off using something off the lvl-4 list and advancing it. The lvl-7 list is a bit of a low point as far as animal companions are concerned. Just compare Ape and Dire Ape to see what I mean. Tiger's viable, though.

[Flickerdart]

It's a druid. Against a fighter. At low levels, so he doesn't have enough wealth by level to even pretend he's got magic. This isn't a battle. It's slaughter.

The only place where the fighter has a chance to actually win is a 10 by 10 foot arena made entirely of plastic.

Include a potted plant in your equipment list. If there aren't any plants nearby, use that to entangle.

If it's in a cave or unknown envirement, then prepare spike growth or spike stones as a decent debuff.

Prepare wind wall in case he goes ranged.

If you want to blast, you could use fog cloud or obscuring mist to up your call lightning bolts from d6's to d10's.

If you fight to win, just grab a few scrolls of shapechange.
Shapechange scrolls are going to be useless - the Druid will fail the check to cast from the scroll over a third of the time. Call Lightning is also going to be useless - even the augmented version is 16.5 damage on average, AKA terribad. The spike spells are only useful if the Fighter is a charging build. An Entangle based on a potted plant won't actually hold the enemy in place (much like the entangle effect of a net) and so is largely useless too.

[Mari01]

It's a druid. Against a fighter. At low levels, so he doesn't have enough wealth by level to even pretend he's got magic. This isn't a battle. It's slaughter.

The only place where the fighter has a chance to actually win is a 10 by 10 foot arena made entirely of plastic.

Include a potted plant in your equipment list. If there aren't any plants nearby, use that to entangle.

If it's in a cave or unknown envirement, then prepare spike growth or spike stones as a decent debuff.

Prepare wind wall in case he goes ranged.

If you want to blast, you could use fog cloud or obscuring mist to up your call lightning bolts from d6's to d10's.

If you fight to win, just grab a few scrolls of shapechange.

I know that, but this is also someone from a group who thought Bard's were gay and useless. I've never made a druid, but I could always see why they were so powerful. It's not that I want to WIN persay, I want to show that things can get out of hand very quickly. The person recently ruled that druid's should gain improved HP because why not? They are gaining everything else about the animal. I showed the eratta and it was shot down. This debate was an offshoot of that.

[Flickerdart]

Well, if Core is what you use then Bards are not very good. They only really shine with splat support.

[Mari01]

Well, if Core is what you use then Bards are not very good. They only really shine with splat support.

Yea. They wouldn't acknowledge Bard usefulness even with splat books. So I made an optimized IC/DFI build. After three fights the attitude went from YOU MADE A BARD? to PROTECT OUR NEW BEST FRIEND.

[tyckspoon]

Engaging him in Wildshape.. probably isn't the best idea, like the other people are saying. You'll be competitive, but a decently built Fighter can pretty handily rip apart most of the animal forms you have access to at 8th unless you can secure time to layer up buffs to compensate for the gear advantage he has compared to you as an animal- just turning into a bear and charging at him will probably get you killed. Turning into a bear with Bear's Strength, Greater Magic Fang, and Barkskin on is a much better fight, although I actually still wouldn't go with the bear (they're the classic image, but they don't have reach and they have a relatively low damage output- tigers or, if you can swing dinosaurs, megaraptors kill things a lot faster.)

So.. I'd just put a Sleet Storm on top of him (destroys his vision, requires him to make Balance checks to move.. since you can probably count on him not having any Balance ranks and it's affected by Armor Penalty, he will mostly not be moving), cast Call Lightning, and slowly blast him to pieces. If he manages to stagger out of the Sleet Storm or survives until it ends, he should be low enough to sic your animal companion on him to finish him off.

[Voyager_I]

You could try grappling him to death. A Giant Crocodile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodileGiant.htm) comes with a cool +21 grapple modifier, and at 8th level you can have one for your animal companion or just summon a few with Summon Nature's Ally IV (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyIV.htm). They're Huge, so you can't turn into one yourself, but that's what Dire Lions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direLion.htm) and Polar Bears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearPolar.htm) are for. Just keep in mind that only one Huge creature can grapple a Medium-sized opponent at a time.

If you don't get any casting time before the battle, start the fight as an Eagle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm) (you can't use Tiny forms yet), hide in Obscuring Mists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/obscuringMist.htm) if you need to, and take your time casting buffs and calling allies until you're ready to fully engage. Barkskin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/barkskin.htm), Bull's Strength (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm), and Greater Magic Fang (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFangGreater.htm) should all serve well. Just remember to share with your companion!

Wind Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm) is game over for Archers without force weapons.

Soften Earth and Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/softenEarthAndStone.htm) can prevent melee builds from getting a charge off.

Sleet Storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleetStorm.htm) is another fun way to mess with them (can't see, halved movement speed, and need to make a DC 10 balance check to walk).

Fog Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fogCloud.htm) is an Obscuring Mists you cast on him if you don't want him to see anything.

Gust of Wind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gustOfWind.htm) can clear out any of your fog effects if he finds a way to use them against you.

Faerie Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/faerieFire.htm) can mess with any clever builds on his part.

None of these spells allow saves of any sort.



As far as an actual build goes, ignore Strength and Dexterity; you're going to be Wildshaped anyways. However, you keep your normal Hit Point total, so make sure to put plenty of points in Constitution (don't play an Elf). Other than that, pump Wisdom, get Natrual Spell, and you're good to go. You should also grab Augment Summoning and it's prerequisite to make your animals even scarier, and maybe Improved Initiative if you're a human and have an extra feat.

A suit of Wild Dragonhide Full PlateBreastplate will take most of your WBL, but there's not much in the way of core items that you can actually use while Wildshaped (it's basically this and Ioun Stones) and it will make you a bit more resilient if you actually go in and fight. One thing to keep in mind is that Animal ACs are pretty terrible for their level and you don't have that many hit points. The armor is more to stop him from Power Attacking than to avoid getting hit. The only reason you should get near him is to take advantage of your ridiculous grapple modifiers, since your AC doesn't matter when you have him in a literal bear hug.

[deuxhero]

Fullplate thing also takes a feat or massive initiative hit.

[Coidzor]

Where are the rules on size putting a limit on number of grapplers of X size if th ere's creatures of Y size in the grapple? Did I just miss that in the main block of grapple rules? :smallconfused:

[Voyager_I]

They're (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) at the bottom of the section.

Sadly, our Giant Crocodiles will have to take turns. Maybe we'd do better to summon a pair of Brown Bears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm)?

[Coidzor]

Which leads to the question, 1 giant crocodile or 2 large-sized grapplers?

Of course, it's vaguely possible that he'd be permanently enlarged through either permanency + enlarge person or through an item of enlarge person, which would allow 2 giant crocs at a time.
Fullplate thing also takes a feat or massive initiative hit.

Only if one starts the fight not already wildshaped. Wild armor preserves the AC bonus while wildshape makes the armor go bye-bye, so it can't give an ACP to initiative.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yea. They wouldn't acknowledge Bard usefulness even with splat books. So I made an optimized IC/DFI build. After three fights the attitude went from YOU MADE A BARD? to PROTECT OUR NEW BEST FRIEND.

Bard is the bestest class. You know why?

Fighter: "I can kill something as a full-round action."
Cleric: "I can kill something as a standard action."
Wizard: "I can kill something as a swift action."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill stuff for me."

I forget who originally said that.

[Gnaeus]

Core only, 8th level? I suggest avoiding melee unless he goes ranged (then lion mode, engage!). You don't have wilding clasps, cant afford wild armor, and you dont have forms like fleshraker. You're going to be a little fragile in melee, basically.

While true, the fact that we have a CORE fighter means that he won't be awesome in melee either. No pounce. No Shock Trooper. Just move up and swing once with 2h weapon + power attack. After which your pet grapples him and fight ends.

Yes, flying up in the air, dispelling any methods of flight he has and killing him from range is the safest route. 0 random chance.

But if you want to play the other way, you could also take improved grapple and wrestle him to death along with your tiger. He could win, but odds are in your favor. If you use all your WBL getting barding, stat boosts and other gear for your tiger or croc, there is a pretty darn good chance that your pet can solo him.

[Mari01]

While true, the fact that we have a CORE fighter means that he won't be awesome in melee either. No pounce. No Shock Trooper. Just move up and swing once with 2h weapon + power attack. After which your pet grapples him and fight ends.

Yes, flying up in the air, dispelling any methods of flight he has and killing him from range is the safest route. 0 random chance.

But if you want to play the other way, you could also take improved grapple and wrestle him to death along with your tiger. He could win, but odds are in your favor. If you use all your WBL getting barding, stat boosts and other gear for your tiger or croc, there is a pretty darn good chance that your pet can solo him.

This may drive the point home. If the animal companion beats him on its own I don't think any character I make would be questioned again lol.

[ShriekingDrake]

Basically, you should just remind the fighter that you're a druid and the game will be over.

Seriously, though, you've been given excellent advice here. Between wild shape (for evasion) and an arsenal of spells, that battle should be over in short order. You need not take a h.p. in damage For that matter, you need not even risk your animal companion in most situations. Just follow the advice above, and you're set.

[Voyager_I]

Honestly, there's really two questions here.

1. Is there anything a core Fighter could possibly do to win against a competent Druid? Eagle form and Wind Wall means conventional builds are basically right out.

2. What's the funniest thing our Druid could do to drive the point home? There must be some way we could get a Pony companion to hoof him to death.

[prufock]

I wonder if your friend will also be seeking online advice, because frankly, he needs it more than you do. I'd be interested in reading that thread: how would a fighter beat a druid at level 8?

[Flickerdart]

Spend some cash on a giant eagle egg, rear it, then grab some mounted charger feats to try for an alpha strike and hope that's enough to splat the druid.

[Mari01]

I wonder if your friend will also be seeking online advice, because frankly, he needs it more than you do. I'd be interested in reading that thread: how would a fighter beat a druid at level 8?

I doubt it. He said he was done 10 minutes after we agreed. I had barely picked my stats for the point buy we agreed upon.

[candycorn]

Human Druid, Level 8.

Str 8 Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 14 (32 point buy, level up points at 4 and 8 to wisdom)

Feats: Spell Focus Conjuration (1), Improved Initiative (Human), Augment Summoning (3), Natural Spell (6)

Preferred Form: Light Warhorse, Dire Bat, Dire Rat (for riding on your Animal Companion)

Spells of Note: Longstrider (70 foot move speed when in horse shape)
Entangle: Limit enemy mounted tricks, slow enemy.
Produce Flame (1d6+5 fire damage range attack, up to 8 total attacks. Works great with dire bat, or share spell + Mounted, for 16 attacks.)

Cat's Grace (For increasing Accuracy with ranged attacks)

Call lightning (10.5 average damage, reflex half, 5 times)
Sleet Storm (Movement Reducer)
Wind Wall (If enemy uses ranged attacks)
Dispel Magic (to get rid of potion effects he may choose)

All Star Summons:
Juvenile Arrowhawk: 2d6 electricity, 1/round
Giant Crocodile (+23 Grapple Modifier, Huge size; can grapple mounts)
Dire Wolverine: +12 to hit with two attacks for 1d6+8, when raging

Animal Companion: Dire Bat (Large Flying mount, high dex).

Let's look at a typical strategy.
Begin by your Animal Companion.
Mount (Move Action), Cast Cat's Grace (shared) (Standard).
Mount Flies 30 feet up (Double move)

Round 2: Cast Produce Flame, Share with Companion. AC Throws fire (+10 ranged touch, 1d6+5 damage).

Round 3-9: You and AC throw. Your ranged touch is +12, AC's is +10

Round 10: You throw.

By round 10, you've thrown 16 fire attacks. Assuming enemy's touch AC is no higher than 13 (likely), you will average 65ish damage for you, and 61ish for the AC.

If he is resistant to fire (potion), move to Call Lightning. 5 shots of that will do 52 average damage, 26 if he passes every save.

This will take about 90% of fighters. If he pops a potion, Dispel Magic, and the above will still likely work.

Note: If the enemy is melee focused, and doesn't have resist energy, this uses a single level 1 spell, and a single level 2 spell.

If he's ranged focused, throw down entangle and wind wall... or summon a giant crocodile or two to grapple him to death.

Also note: No WBL has been used in this.

If Fighter has a flying mount, focus on it first, and note, if you're above a flyer, it has a hard time charging. Also note: even giant eagles only have 26 hp. That's barely a speed bump.

You can push your AC as a move action (DC 21 Handle animal, after the bonus), which gives you a 65% chance to be able to get your animal companion to ready an action to move away from the fighter if he closes within a certain distance (messes up charges pretty hard).

[Coidzor]

Honestly, there's really two questions here.

1. Is there anything a core Fighter could possibly do to win against a competent Druid? Eagle form and Wind Wall means conventional builds are basically right out.

Combat trained mule swarm could prevent him from being grappled, though it does nothing against entangle, sleet storm, or getting blasted slowly. He couldn't effectively use it offensively due to handle animal taking actions to get them to do tricks they know unless they've been attacked, IIRC, though this also depends upon the individual DM. A houseruled in "Go berserk and attack anything unfamiliar that moves when you hear this bell" trick on top of attackx2 could result in getting zerg-rushed if one has to start on the ground.

A flying mount like a pegasus, hippogriff, or giant owl would allow the fighter to go with flying charges using a 2-handed lance and spirited charge, where if he wins initiative, he'll be able to charge and have a good chance of one-shoting the druid. Average HP for a druid with 14 Con is 55.5, a fighter with 18+2(levelup)+4(item) strength can achieve(two-handing the lance) (1d8+10+16)*3=91.5 average damage on a hit when putting all of his BAB into PA, or (4.5+10+4)*3=55.5(or the example druid's average HP) average damage when only power attacking for 2. And would get (1d8+10+[PA*2])*5 damage on a crit, no need for power attack as the 50 damage from strength alone and the average 22.5 damage from rolling 5d8 will exceed even a druid with an 18 Con's average HP of 71.5.

Feats this would take would be
F1 - Power Attack
1 - Mounted Combat
F2 - Ride-By Attack
3 - Spirited Charge
F4 - Improved Initiative (needs to win initiative for this to really work)
6 - ???Leadership? (For Flying Mount)
F6 - ???Weapon Focus?(more likely to hit, more likely to get that one good hit in)
F8 - ???Greater Weapon Focus?(cumulative +2 to hit)

IIRC, mounted charger is basically the most a core-only Fighter can really aspire to be.

[Acanous]

Mounted charger is pretty much the only thing *Any* core-only melee character can try against a tier one caster.
Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian... you've all got the one shot or you're doomed.

[Voyager_I]

Those are good ideas, but I don't think the Pony swarm would help him win so much as make it a bit more inconvenient for the Druid to kill him.

The Charger is actually pretty dangerous, but it would only really work if the encounter started with them within 160 feet of each other, which I would call a pretty loaded scenario given that they're in the sky. Even then, the Druid could probably get out of it just by starting with his animal companion 10 feet in front of him to absorb the charge.

A big part of the problem is the Druid's versatility. The Fighter gets exactly one trick. The Druid can start out flying with a host of different spells while having a grapple-monster for an animal companion, turn into whatever he needs to be to suit the moment, and always has the option of summoning a pile of giant crocodiles and lions and dire wolves if his first three plans don't work out. Worst can scenario; he can just fly away and come back tomorrow and there's nothing most Fighters could do to stop him.


I'm still working on that Pony build, by the way.

[sonofzeal]

I wonder if your friend will also be seeking online advice, because frankly, he needs it more than you do. I'd be interested in reading that thread: how would a fighter beat a druid at level 8?
The key point will be beating the Druid's initiative, which is not unfeasible if they invest in it. After that, assuming no prebuff, then he'll try to get around the AC and kill the Druid before they have a chance to Wildshape, which also isn't unfeasible on a good charge.

If I was the Fighter I'd go ubercharger, and grab Martial Study: Sudden Leap, max initiative, and specify that the challenge is in a 60x60 arena with no prebuff. Assuming I won initiative, I'd expect the Druid to place the AC to block my charge, so I'd use Sudden Leap to clear the charge lane and/or reduce the distance slightly, and then charge the Druid into oblivion. It's all on one lucky charge, but should give me a significant chance of victory.

[Voyager_I]

If I was the Fighter I'd go ubercharger, and grab Martial Study: Sudden Leap, max initiative, and specify that the challenge is in a 60x60 arena with no prebuff. Assuming I won initiative, I'd expect the Druid to place the AC to block my charge, so I'd use Sudden Leap to clear the charge lane and/or reduce the distance slightly, and then charge the Druid into oblivion. It's all on one lucky charge, but should give me a significant chance of victory.

Core only. You get...Power Attack.

[Coidzor]

The key point will be beating the Druid's initiative, which is not unfeasible if they invest in it. After that, assuming no prebuff, then he'll try to get around the AC and kill the Druid before they have a chance to Wildshape, which also isn't unfeasible on a good charge.


How would they invest in it beyond what the Druid can do? Str 14, Dex 20 Elf/Halfling with +4 Dex item(if you're allowed to exceed half WBL for an item anyway, IIRC WBL right) and improved initiative and weapon finesse with an under-sized lance? At that point they're not going to be doing a whole lot of damage due to not being able to get 2:1 PA and only getting half of their weak strength to damage. And if they don't weapon finesse, they're cutting into their ability to hit as well as their damage, can they afford to do so?

It doesn't seem like a Fighter can secure winning initiative consistently in Core-Only and still remain a threat to the druid. So I must be missing something that you're thinking of here.

[gomipile]

If I was the Fighter I'd go ubercharger, and grab Martial Study: ...

It's Core only.

[sonofzeal]

Core only. You get...Power Attack.
Core only, right. Well, there's still Rhino armor, a lance, and Spirited Charge. I don't see a way to get around the animal companion though.

[Antonok]

Hmm... ways to kill a lvl 8 fighter in a humiliating fashion...

Grappling animal companion + bucket + create water spell.

Wildshape into a flying creature, cast windwall then flaming sphere and slowly burn him to death.

Chill/Heat Metal.

If he has a horse, Dominate Animal and then have fun.

Rusting Grasp/Warp Wood his weapon then let him fight your AC hand-to-fang.

Meld into Stone, buff yourself, then come out blasting.

[candycorn]

Core only, right. Well, there's still Rhino armor, a lance, and Spirited Charge. I don't see a way to get around the animal companion though.

Or to consistently win initiative. A Human druid with a 16 dex and improved initiative is swinging a +7 init. Best possible in core is a 26 dex halfling/elf with Imp Init, for a +12. That's not consistent, and it involves a +4 dex item, and all stat points into Dex. Huge investment.

[Randomguy]

I think the dominate animal idea is the funniest. See if you can kill him just with his own mount.

I'd actually prepare another spell to protect against animals in case he decides to spend cash on guard dogs or something. Possibly animal trance.

Perhaps the most humiliating way would be to kill him in melee combat without wildshaping, but I don't think that's possible in core. You could try making a charger build, though.

Another funny way to kill him would be to use spam badgers at him from a safe distance.

[candycorn]

Hide From Animals is probably the best anti-animal defense you'll have. Level 1 spell, and as long as you don't directly attack, they'll not know you're there.

[Mystify]

If you really want to drive the point home, prepare several of these. Preferably on the same build. Challenge him to rematches afterwards, and show him that you can beat him in a dozen different ways.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

So after you beat him; do you think he'll run through the fight again so you can kill him a different way? Allowing you to cycle from the easiest kill to the more difficult ones?

[Randomguy]

If you do choose to escalate in difficulty it would probably start with just wildshaping and hitting him 'till he keels over, then produce flame from afar, then be the same thing with some battlefield control (entangle, spike stones, so on) thrown in, then call lightning instead of produce flame, then summoning crocodiles.

[Mari01]

So after you beat him; do you think he'll run through the fight again so you can kill him a different way? Allowing you to cycle from the easiest kill to the more difficult ones?

Lol it's what I was thinking. After we got the challenge I looked at my friend and asked "So should I beat him with summons or should I be mean?" His response was, "Beat him all the ways."

[Flickerdart]

That might take a while. Propose that snackage becomes involved, and that the loser pays for it.

[Voyager_I]

So, I've put some numbers to a Pony that should be able to properly demonstrate the magic of friendship. Here's what we start with;


A Pony boosted up to 6 HD with a handful of other bonuses.
+2 Mithral Full Plate Barding 16,000 gp (you're the one who can't wear metal)
Ranks in Handle Animal
You'll also need the following consumables:
Potion of Barkskin +5 1,200 gp
Potion of Heroism 350 gp
Potion of Shield of Faith +5 900 gp
Oil of Greater Magic Fang +5 3,000 gp
Potion of Rage (ECL 20) 2,000 gp
Potion of Haste (ECL 20) 3,000 gp
Remaining Gold: 550 gp. I dunno. Buy half a Wand or something?

Prepare these spells:
Bear's Endurance
Bull's Strength
Cat's Grace
Speak with Animals
Freedom of Movement
Entangle
Fog Cloud or Sleet Storm (or both)
Air Walk x 3
Reduce Animal
Cure X Wounds
Other Utility (Wind Wall, Obscuring Mists, Warp Wood, etc)


First, train your Pony to fight. This doesn't make him a Warpony, but it should let him wear armor and treat his hooves as a main attack. Use one of his remaining tricks (he'll have plenty, thanks to being an Animal Companion) to teach him how to use Air Walk. The rest don't really matter, but you could teach him how to swallow potions you feed him if you think your buddy will give you a hard time about it.

Because you're level 8, your Pony gets some nice boosts. Here's his relevant statistics:

HP: 33 HP Avg (6d8+6)
BAB: +4
AC: 18 (+2 Natural, +4 Druid, +2 Dex)
Str: 16 (+2 Druid, +1 Hit Die)
Dex: 15 (+2 Druid)
Con: 12
Attack: Hoof +6
Full Attack: 2 Hooves +6
Damage: 1d3+2
Feats: Endurance, Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative (these are largely your choice)

This is pretty good for a pack animal, but the little guy's not ready to take on a real Fighter...yet. That's why you're going to buff the crap out of him. I'm assuming your friend won't be kind enough to let you start with quite this many buffs running, but fortunately, he doesn't have to let us.

Start out in the shape of a Dire Bat. Cast Reduce Animal on your little friend, then just pick him up and fly as far away as you need to (go ahead and train him for this part, while we're at it), and maybe drop a Wind Wall or Obscuring Mists if you're up against an Archer. Anything but a flying charger won't be able to do anything about it. Cast Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, and Freedom of Movement on him, give yourself Speak with Animals, and share an Air Walk. Now turn back into a human and put those thumbs to good use. Apply all your oils and potions, but save the Potion of Rage and Potion of Haste until you're close to the ground; they'll only last 2 minutes. You might need to cast another Air Walk for this, but that's why you prepared three of them. Once your little buddy is fully buffed, dismiss Reduce Animal and let him go to town (or leave it on, if you think watching a Fighter die to a three-foot Pony would be funnier). Turn back into a flying shape and drop some Entangles, since he's immune and the Fighter probably isn't.

Here's what he looks like after he's buffed up:

Str: 22 (+4 Bull's Strength, +2 Potion of Rage)
Dex: 19 (+4 Cat's Grace)
Con: 18 (+4 Bear's Endurance, +2 Potion of Rage)

...giving us...

HP: 51 HP Avg (6d8 + 24)
AC: 37 (+10 Armor, +11 Natural, +5 Deflection, +3 Dex, -2 Potion of Rage)
Attack: Hoof +17 (+4 BAB, +6 Str, +5 Greater Magic Fang, +2 Potion of Heroism)
Full Attack: 3 Hooves +17 (+1 attack Haste)
Damage: Hoof 1d3+11 (+6 Str, +5 Greater Magic Fang)


You're probably good just to fly around and watch from here, but be ready to pop some heal spells on the champ if he gets hurt. On the off chance his Fighter manages to kill your Pony, I'd roleplay your character's obvious anger by converting all your remaining spell slots to Wolves, Lions, and Giant Crocodiles.


If he points out how much money you spent on consumables, remind him that selling all his items should recoup the costs nicely and he just got hoofed to death by the rampaging star of a children's cartoon.

[sonofzeal]

Or to consistently win initiative. A Human druid with a 16 dex and improved initiative is swinging a +7 init. Best possible in core is a 26 dex halfling/elf with Imp Init, for a +12. That's not consistent, and it involves a +4 dex item, and all stat points into Dex. Huge investment.
You don't need a guarantee, but a +10 initiative and starting within charging range would go a long way towards equalizing things. The issue is that the AC can clog the charge lanes while the Druid gets away.

[candycorn]

+10 init? That's a 22 Dex and Improved init.

That's a considerable investment, especially since the druid can afford to boost dex more.

The only fighter I'd expect to see with a 20+ dexterity at level 8 is a ranged fighter.

Besides, winning via init win + one shot is about as strong an argument for class superiority as arguing that a bike is faster than a car, and relying on siphoning the gas tank to prove it.

[Voyager_I]

Besides, winning via init win + one shot is about as strong an argument for class superiority as arguing that a bike is faster than a car, and relying on siphoning the gas tank to prove it.

Nobody's arguing that Fighters are better than Druids. We were just brainstorming for a build that had any hope of victory against an opponent with a will to live.

[Coidzor]

^: Eh? I thought the guy the OP was arguing with was! :smallconfused:
You don't need a guarantee, but a +10 initiative and starting within charging range would go a long way towards equalizing things. The issue is that the AC can clog the charge lanes while the Druid gets away.

Yes, but by starting within charging range with plum conditions for a charge, you're also admitting the Fighter is not able to meaningfully contribute to the fight if he starts beyond it.

Funny how the people who cause these threads to be spawned never realize it though, eh? :smallconfused:

[sonofzeal]

Besides, winning via init win + one shot is about as strong an argument for class superiority as arguing that a bike is faster than a car, and relying on siphoning the gas tank to prove it.
Of course. Good thing I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying, if I were in the position of the Fighter, this is how I'd try to win.

[candycorn]

Of course. Good thing I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying, if I were in the position of the Fighter, this is how I'd try to win.

That is the approach that the OP's friend seems to have, though. That suggests, from the psychology of it, that he's supremely confident (add on the 10 minute character sheet), and likely built his sheet around a single well-known schtick (at least, one he's comfortable with).

If I had to guess, I'd say either archery or tripping.

Vs Archery, Obscuring Mist, followed by summoning giant crocs, and you're good.

Vs Tripping, withdraw, using your mount as cover on the way out, and you should be far enough away to do your thing next round. My recommendation is using low level spells, like obscuring mist and produce flame, only falling back on wildshape and higher spells and such if you need to. By doing this, you emphasize the power of your tricks, since even your weaker tricks can win the fight.

Frankly, the most annoying would be a mounted archer, since wind wall is mostly stationary. Against that, I'd rely on entangle and then killing the mount.

[sonofzeal]

That is the approach that the OP's friend seems to have, though. That suggests, from the psychology of it, that he's supremely confident (add on the 10 minute character sheet), and likely built his sheet around a single well-known schtick (at least, one he's comfortable with).

If I had to guess, I'd say either archery or tripping.

Vs Archery, Obscuring Mist, followed by summoning giant crocs, and you're good.

Vs Tripping, withdraw, using your mount as cover on the way out, and you should be far enough away to do your thing next round. My recommendation is using low level spells, like obscuring mist and produce flame, only falling back on wildshape and higher spells and such if you need to. By doing this, you emphasize the power of your tricks, since even your weaker tricks can win the fight.

Frankly, the most annoying would be a mounted archer, since wind wall is mostly stationary. Against that, I'd rely on entangle and then killing the mount.
I don't know, charging is one of the main Fighter shticks too. But yes, I could see how he might think of archery as a mage-killer. In which case, remember that dropping prone is a free action, and that most spells can be cast while prone without issue.

[Mari01]

It's not that I want to say that fighter is completely useless. Especially considering my favorite class is the Paladin. The debate was over his ruling on how wild shape worked. After showing the eratta that said you don't gain/lose hp based on your form, he decided to say that if your druid had 8 con before, you now had the 17 con of a crocodile and all the health to go with it. I said that's outrageous considering a druid would only need wisdom without that. He said that a druid couldn't manage and that wild shape wasn't that good anyway. A few things later and challenges were made and then this thread spawned.

TL;DR It's not that I want to win. And yes part of the original debate was that a fighter could beat a druid hands down. I want to show what a difference the polymorph eratta makes. And to crack a few fighter skulls while at it.

[Flickerdart]

In case the battle starts outside of charge range, the Fighter's best bet would probably be to chug a potion with his standard action. Something nice and buffy. Perhaps an Enlarge Person? Sadly the Fighter has no way to jump up to Huge, at which point his arrows would tear through a Wind Wall, and it's probably ridiculous to ask that he could start with a loaded ballista.

Can we use MM races? It would be possible to get a Large Humanoid using a Lycanthrope, and then Enlarge Person brings us up to Huge for some sweet artillery action. The lowest HD on a Large Animal from the MM that I can find is 3 HD (Large Viper gives our archer a shiny +6 Dexterity, Light Warhorse or Mule grants +6 Strength and Constitution), which puts us at Fighter 3/LA 2/HD 3. This feels a little cheaty because less than half of our levels are Fighter, and also because we are using a Shapeshifter to try and beat a Druid. On the other hand, all we're getting from the template is the ability to get through Wind Wall. The Fighter levels get us the feats we desperately need to make Archery work to begin with, so Fighter is still pulling some of the weight here.

Also, can you imagine the savings on Fighters that ride themselves into battle as warhorses, then morph, pick up their weapons and start fighting? It's basically 18th century dragoons, and everyone knows dragoons are awesome.

Edit: Ideally, on an Elite Array and without much money-spending it would look something like this. Yes, I know that Lycanthropes have to be omnivores at least. Imagine that these are eeeeeevil man-eating horses.

Horse Archer, Hybrid Form (Light Warhorse)
LA 2/Animal 3/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2
STR 22 +4 for Rage +2 for potion
DEX 16 +4 for item -2 for potion
CON 19 +4 for Rage
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 8

Feats:
Human - Improved Initiative
Lycanthrope - Iron Will
1 - Point Blank Shot
3 - Rapid Shot
6 - Quick Draw
Fighter 1 - WF Composite Longbow
Fighter 2 - Power Attack

AC: 10 - 2 size + 6 natural + 4 chain shirt + 4 dexterity - 2 raging = 20
HP: 12 + 2d10 + 3d8 + 36 = 72.5 HP
Saves: 15/10/7
Initiative: +9 (since the potion takes effect after it's rolled)

Attack Bonus: +5 BAB, -2 Size, +4 Dexterity or +9 Strength, +1 WF, +1 magic weapon

Ranged Attack: +7/+7 Huge Composite Longbow +1 for 3d6+10 (avg 20.5)
Melee Attack: +13 Huge Greatsword +1 for 4d6+14 (avg 28)

If we drop the Dexterity item down to +2, this puts us roughly on target for NPC WBL, making these guys pretty decent CR6 encounters.

[Voyager_I]

Just promise you'll come back and tell us how it went. The last time we had a "My friend says Fighter can totally beat X" thread we came up with a bunch of hilarious ideas and never heard from the guy again.

Also, it seems like the people who come up with these challenges are the same people who can't make decent Fighters to begin with.

[Mari01]

Just promise you'll come back and tell us how it went. The last time we had a "My friend says Fighter can totally beat X" thread we came up with a bunch of hilarious ideas and never heard from the again.

Also, it seems like the people who come up with these challenges are also the people who can't even make decent Fighters to begin with.

The last fighter the person made was a scythe-wielding crit fisher using an amulet from the MIC to make touch attacks. Went around one-shotting things, so I had to always throw a couple extra monsters every now and then to burn through the charges. Then again, we were also using what pretty much equates to like a 50-60 point buy at the time, so stats will be much, much, much, lower.

And I promise to give results :D

[candycorn]

In case the battle starts outside of charge range, the Fighter's best bet would probably be to chug a potion with his standard action. Something nice and buffy. Perhaps an Enlarge Person? Sadly the Fighter has no way to jump up to Huge, at which point his arrows would tear through a Wind Wall, and it's probably ridiculous to ask that he could start with a loaded ballista.

Can we use MM races? It would be possible to get a Large Humanoid using a Lycanthrope, and then Enlarge Person brings us up to Huge for some sweet artillery action. The lowest HD on a Large Animal from the MM that I can find is 3 HD (Large Viper gives our archer a shiny +6 Dexterity, Light Warhorse or Mule grants +6 Strength and Constitution), which puts us at Fighter 3/LA 2/HD 3. This feels a little cheaty because less than half of our levels are Fighter, and also because we are using a Shapeshifter to try and beat a Druid. On the other hand, all we're getting from the template is the ability to get through Wind Wall. The Fighter levels get us the feats we desperately need to make Archery work to begin with, so Fighter is still pulling some of the weight here.

Also, can you imagine the savings on Fighters that ride themselves into battle as warhorses, then morph, pick up their weapons and start fighting? It's basically 18th century dragoons, and everyone knows dragoons are awesome.

That's a lot of investment into ranged, and against ranged (enlarge gives -2 to hit, for example)... And all it bypasses is wind wall.

So would going around the wall on a mount.

And this doesn't address a rather big problem... Obscuring mist. Chances of hitting a small druid hiding in a fog bank are.. quite slim.

Especially when you add flight as an option (wildshape into a flying creature).

Assuming a 95% hit chance (only a 1 misses), 50% concealment (successful hiding), and guessing at the square from any square in the area of obscuring mist... and the hit chance is... about 0.3%. That's close to the same chance as rolling a d20 twice, and getting only 20's.

[Coidzor]

It's not that I want to say that fighter is completely useless. Especially considering my favorite class is the Paladin. The debate was over his ruling on how wild shape worked. After showing the eratta that said you don't gain/lose hp based on your form, he decided to say that if your druid had 8 con before, you now had the 17 con of a crocodile and all the health to go with it.

And disadvantages of low constitution forms. :smallyuk: Though you still wouldn't want an 8 Con anyway, because there's those 4 pesky levels before wildshape and that other pesky level without natural spell and only one use.


TL;DR It's not that I want to win. And yes part of the original debate was that a fighter could beat a druid hands down. I want to show what a difference the polymorph eratta makes. And to crack a few fighter skulls while at it.

How's your point made if you don't win? He'll just gloat about how druids are teh so weaks, no? :smallconfused:

[Flickerdart]

That's a lot of investment into ranged, and against ranged (enlarge gives -2 to hit, for example)... And all it bypasses is wind wall.
Getting big also makes your bow deal more damage, and getting the bonuses from Lycanthrope helps your melee too.


So would going around the wall on a mount.

Yes but that's not very original.



And this doesn't address a rather big problem... Obscuring mist. Chances of hitting a small druid hiding in a fog bank are.. quite slim.

Especially when you add flight as an option (wildshape into a flying creature).

Assuming a 95% hit chance (only a 1 misses), 50% concealment (successful hiding), and guessing at the square from any square in the area of obscuring mist... and the hit chance is... about 0.3%. That's close to the same chance as rolling a d20 twice, and getting only 20's.
Why would you shoot the Druid hiding in the fog? Use the opportunity to close to range, drink a different potion, take pot shots at the nasties that are crawling out of it, dig a trench, cry yourself to sleep...there are so many different things a Fighter can do.

[Quellian-dyrae]

If you really want to drive the point home, prepare several of these. Preferably on the same build. Challenge him to rematches afterwards, and show him that you can beat him in a dozen different ways.

The sad thing is, not only can a single druid build beat a fighter with high-to-perfect reliability in several different ways, a single druid build can beat almost any core fighter build one could field. Two handed power attacker? Animal companion grapple. Sword and board? Nuke touch AC with Produce Flame. Mounted Charger? Dominate the mount (or Entangle lockdown if you really don't want to take risks). Archer? Wind wall and spam summons. Two weapon? Just send the companion to win through superior DPR. Tripper? Wildshape into something large, strong, and four-legged. You could pull all of these on the same build without difficulty and still have a few tricks up your sleeve, and most of them could be swapped around and be just as effective.

[share and enjoy]

in short you can beat him all the ways that make him rely on being a fighter, if he's a clever player and out thinks you he can win but yeah not a lot in the books to help him.

[ShriekingDrake]

How about if you beat him into unconsciousness and then bind him beyond his ability to escape, which should not take too much if you invest in Rope Use. Then heal him and release him Then repeat.

[Clawhound]

In terms of action economy, you win. It's hard to do it wrong.

Now, if he's smart, he'll bring along some fun stuff.

Here's the fighter's important tactics: kill druid. Once PC is dead, he wins. He doesn't have to kill the summons or the animal companion.

Javelins of Lightning. At his level, he can toss off two per round and they're fairly affordable. (I believe that they are use activated.) He can increase this with rapid shot. So, figure 20d6 per round of electrical damage. Even if you save, figure 10x3.5 = 35 damage per round. Odd are likely that you take more like 60hp per round.

For melee, he'll need an item of elemental summoning. He absolutely needs to counter your action economy. Again, affordable. If he has animal handling, he can start with a big HD animal as well.

I still think that you'll win, but if he's smart, he'll make you sweat more than you think.

Oh, and entirely core and only costs two feats.

[Bard for Kicks]

I'm surprised no one mentioned burrowing.
Why not have the druid change into something with burrow speed? Swords and arrows don't do anything against that. Just pop out (5ft step rule?), snip at his legs (standard action), then pop back in (move action).

[Mystify]

I'm surprised no one mentioned burrowing.
Why not have the druid change into something with burrow speed? Swords and arrows don't do anything against that. Just pop out (5ft step rule?), snip at his legs (standard action), then pop back in (move action).
you can't 5ft step and move in the same round.
You could probably use spring attack though.

[prufock]

I doubt it. He said he was done 10 minutes after we agreed. I had barely picked my stats for the point buy we agreed upon.

That brings up another point. You are not just fighting a Fighter, you are fighting a player. A player that is far less interested in winning than you are. I don't think you'll have a problem.

[Mari01]

That brings up another point. You are not just fighting a Fighter, you are fighting a player. A player that is far less interested in winning than you are. I don't think you'll have a problem.

Oh no he wants to win. Fighters in the group are almost always "move up swing for damage" as far as that goes. So when it comes to making one they are done VERY quickly.

[Randomguy]

If the point of this was to prove that wildshape isn't underpowered, then you might as well kill him in wildshape.

First distract him (by summoning a croc or entangling him or something)then buff up with potions and spells, turn into a polar bear and fight him yourself.

For spell's you'll want bulls strength, bear's endurance, cats grace, barkskin, greater magic fang and maybe freedom of movement. For potion's you'll want shield of faith, haste, heroism, displacement and possibly rage.

The best feat choices for this would probably be improved initiative, improved unarmed strike, improved grapple and natural spell, although you'll probably be able to beat him in a grapple even without improved grapple, so you could still go the spell focus (conjuration) and augment summoning rout if you prefer.

[Clawhound]

You need rules on pre-buffing, terrain, and distance.

There's a huge difference between a spontaneous fight and a fully prepped and buffed fight. I suggest that you let the fighter pick his ground. That way, he can't talk about unfair. He really should arrange the fight in his own favor. If your assertions about the druid holds, then this favoritism won't matter.

[Flickerdart]

It seems kind of wrong to spend rounds buffing and then claim that Wildshape is powerful. Pretty sure that you could beat him without buffing up. Level 8 opens up Megaraptor and 24/7 Wildshape, so this is probably the best level for this. Your charge attack from 120ft away (4d6+2d4+1d8+16, average 39.5) is going to shear off around 2/3 of his hit points (10+7d10+24, assuming Constitution of 16, is average 62.5) if all the attacks (at +14, assuming your AC sets up a flank, which it should) hit. And if you take Improved Unarmed Strike, you can make that attack routine even better with two unarmed strike attacks (because hey, look who just got their first iterative, it's you) for 1d4+5 apiece.

If the dino doesn't fly, Dire Lion is comparable in power (+16 attack, 4d6+1d8+23, average 41.5 damage, but you don't get the Rends on a not-charge). Oh and also you get Improved Grab, meaning that he can't retaliate and gets beaten into the ground with a +17 grapple check (whereas he'll probably be packing +13 or so).

[Clawhound]

Expect the fighter to have an AC of 10 + 8 plate + 2 enchantment + 1 dex = 21 minimum.

If the fighter has a shield, AC should be 25.

So, only expect about 1/2 to 2/3 of your attacks to hit.

With defensive fighting and tumble, his AC could easily hit 28, or 30 with a tower shield.

So, depending on his kit, you could have a harder to easier time.

If he gets a pre-buff, expect him to quaff a potion of natural armor, boosting him another +4, giving him an AC of 34.

[Flickerdart]

With defensive fighting and a tower shield, both his accuracy and damage dip into negligible territory. Then it doesn't matter how many of your attacks hit, because none of his do.

[Mystify]

If he throws everything into AC, megaraptor form won't be able to touch him. Of course, then you can spell him to death easily, and his own offense will suffer.

[Xiander]

If this is about wild shape's power, rely on wildshape. Flying shapes + bombardment tactics. Large shapes + grapple. possibly burrowing shpes and other shenanigans.

Also be sure to point out that wildshape gives you access to scent, flight based transport, climb speed, swim speed and all sorts of other utility.

[Voyager_I]

If he throws everything into AC, megaraptor form won't be able to touch him. Of course, then you can spell him to death easily, and his own offense will suffer.

Or just send in the grapplers, because touching him will actually be pretty easy.

That's the devil in the fight, really. If the Fighter commits to one build (which he has to), and that build isn't something that can kill the Druid before he gets to take an action, then the Druid just turns into something he can't deal with and wins by default.

Obscuring Mists beats the Lightning Javelins, too. He can also just cast Resist Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) for 20 Electricity Resistance and be practically immune to them.


Here's another fun idea; beat the Fighter at his own game. Do a mounted charger build riding on a Rhinoceros animal companion.

[ahenobarbi]

Well fighter could get Candle of Invocation and Gate himself something nice... but this would be like admitting he couldn't win.

Getting your ponny to kill fighter would be hilarious :smallbiggrin:

[Clawhound]

If prebuffing is allowed, expect the fighter to drink a potion of growth. That will help grappling, damage, etc. Note that the fighter may be a goliath, so you might not get any advantage from size at all.

The fighter could also pick up Javelins of Lighting energy converted into four different kinds of energy. You could prebuff against them, but if there is no buffing allowed, you're kinda toast, and he causes the druid to burn even more spells.

Note that changing form is a standard action, so every time the druid changes form, the fighter denies the druid a spell. Thus, you really need to know if the druid will start as a creature or as a human.

Get those details sorted out. All challenges succeed or fail because people just don't work out the details.

Expect the fighter to clock in at 72 hit points. (16 con + 5.5 avg HP) x 8 levels. He could trick the fighter up to 18 con, so he could be 80 hp.

[Flickerdart]

If prebuffing is allowed, expect the fighter to drink a potion of growth. That will help grappling, damage, etc. Note that the fighter may be a goliath, so you might not get any advantage from size at all.
Except Goliaths are Races of Stone, which is a stone's throw away from the core books.

[Voyager_I]

If prebuffing is allowed, expect the fighter to drink a potion of growth. That will help grappling, damage, etc. Note that the fighter may be a goliath, so you might not get any advantage from size at all.

Goliath won't be an option; he's limited to Core races. Becoming Large also means the Druid can grapple him with two Giant Crocodiles instead of just one.


The fighter could also pick up Javelins of Lighting energy converted into four different kinds of energy. You could prebuff against them, but if there is no buffing allowed, you're kinda toast, and he causes the druid to burn even more spells.

Where are the rules for energy substitution on specific magic items?

Even if he does that, the Druid can just hide in Obscuring Mists and become practically impossible to hit with them.


Note that changing form is a standard action, so every time the druid changes form, the fighter denies the druid a spell. Thus, you really need to know if the druid will start as a creature or as a human.

Get those details sorted out. All challenges succeed or fail because people just don't work out the details.

I will agree to this. Personally, given that an 8th Level Druid can be in Wildshape all day, I'd expect them to be able to start in animal form, but you should still clear it up with your friend.


Maybe you should play it like you're a Boss Fight. Make him fight your "minions" in increasing difficulty (so piles of summoned Wolves, followed by piles of summoned Lions, followed by a few Brown Bears or Tigers). If he fights his way through all that, send in your toughest henchman in the form of your Animal Companion (with a couple of pre-fight buffs, of course). Only if your pet is losing should you descend and fight him as the final boss.

[candycorn]

Frankly, I'd suggest using AC for what it's designed for. Mobility and utility.

Use a flying form, buffed, and stay out of range. Drop low level spells on him, which will be enough to kill him, most likely. If it's not, summon crocodiles and then other animals (crocs to keep the grapple going, other animals to attack him while he's grappled.)

If he goes the heavy armor fighter, then his touch AC will be 11-12. You'll not have trouble hitting that reliably with Produce Flame.

[Lans]

So would going around the wall on a mount.


Actually wind wall can curve around you, so he could only attack from directly above or below.


Honestly, there's really two questions here.

1. Is there anything a core Fighter could possibly do to win against a competent Druid? Eagle form and Wind Wall means conventional builds are basically right out.

PAO when the druid thinks his wildshape is going to be enough?


The sad thing is, not only a single druid build beat a fighter with high-to-perfect reliability in several different ways, a single druid build can beat almost any core fighter build one could field. Two handed power attacker? Animal companion grapple.
Fighter could have a larger grapple bonus-23 or so and break the grapple.




Mounted Charger? Dominate the mount (or Entangle lockdown if you really don't want to take risks). Giant eagles and others are magical beasts, and possibly in the air. You could try nuking it, but initiative war, mounted combat, and just being a little unlucky.


Archer? Wind wall and spam summons. You have to beat his initiative, and/or the large archers that were mentioned, and/or alpha strike with really expensive arrows. So each one does 1d8+10+5d6 various energy or some snaz.


Tripper? Wildshape into something large, strong, and four-legged. You could pull all of these on the same build without difficulty and still have a few tricks up your sleeve, and most of them could be swapped around and be just as effective. Fighter can hit +16 to his trip through PAO or enlarge person.

[Voyager_I]

Are we assuming the Fighter can hire an NPC caster to use the Double-Polymorph trick? Because if we throw that level of cheese in, we end up with a very different competition.

[Coidzor]

Oh no he wants to win. Fighters in the group are almost always "move up swing for damage" as far as that goes. So when it comes to making one they are done VERY quickly.

So this is most likely an upoptimized, non-charging, non-tripping, non-archery, non-grappling fighter? Oh that's rich.

Is he going sword and board too?

[Acanous]

Lycanthropic fighter is actually a pretty good choice. You get DR/Silver, which helps against the crocodiles/animal companion, boost to saves, large size, possibly Scent which would let you pick out what square the druid occupies in a cloud of fog.
Still have a 50% miss chance, but if you're both in the fog, the druid can't target you with any spell that requires a visable target, while you pelt him with arrows 50% of the time.

Assuming you gnabbed Rapid Shot, you might actually be able to take that druid down. Better odds than the charger, at least. Plus you go first.

[Coidzor]

I'm surprised no one mentioned burrowing.
Why not have the druid change into something with burrow speed? Swords and arrows don't do anything against that. Just pop out (5ft step rule?), snip at his legs (standard action), then pop back in (move action).

Spring attack would mean he couldn't take Natural Spell as his 6th level feat, and that's what would be necessary for burrowing pot-shots. Burrow is pretty useful in general though, but without the senses to be able to pinpoint the fighter, better off flying instead.


Oh, and entirely core and only costs two feats.

Eh!? There's no real core way for a fighter to get any large HD animal or magical beast that doesn't explicitly have a cost. Druids, on the other hand, actually have Wild Empathy, so they can Diplomance wild or domesticated animals and magical beasts into being their bosom buddies. A Druid 8 with 14 charisma and 5 ranks in handle animal is rocking a +12 to his check, so he can't make an unfriendly animal hostile and makes them indifferent on a roll of 3 or better. If they're indifferent, then, again, he only needs a roll of 3 or better to make them friendly. Once they're friendly, it's only a roll of 8 or better to make them helpful and once they're helpful one has to be making epic skill checks to get to fanatic.


Frankly, I'd suggest using AC for what it's designed for. Mobility and utility.

Considering the playtesters didn't use the animal companion and the designers were kinda drunk at the wheel, that's a horrible idea.

[Lans]

Are we assuming the Fighter can hire an NPC caster to use the Double-Polymorph trick? Because if we throw that level of cheese in, we end up with a very different competition.

I consider it considerably less cheesy than blowing all your wealth on one shot items that was already discussed for the druid, and it only works if the druid ignores it as an option. While direbat might be just as good for the druids purposes with its high dex, I'm sure his AC could use a better body.

[Killer Angel]

But yes, safest route is Augment Summoning + Natural Spell + Dire Bat Wildshape. Hang back, swarm him with summons, and laugh.

The only problem I can see could be a dedicated archer, that could shoot some arrows before you wind wall (the druid will lose one round to fly from the ground and only in the second one will cast wind wall).
Also, wind wall is not perfect. You can be targeted from below, and you had to be careful... the dire bat form can hoover, so you can cast summons, but the space within the wall is very limited, and the dire bat is large... you're basically stuck in place.

Of course, the animal companion will be helpful to conveniently "distract" the fighter, while you set the winning conditions...

[candycorn]

The only problem I can see could be a dedicated archer, that could shoot some arrows before you wind wall (the druid will lose one round to fly from the ground and only in the second one will cast wind wall).
Also, wind wall is not perfect. You can be targeted from below, and you had to be careful... the dire bat form can hoover, so you can cast summons, but the space within the wall is very limited, and the dire bat is large... you're basically stuck in place.

Of course, the animal companion will be helpful to conveniently "distract" the fighter, while you set the winning conditions...

Not really. Druid begins mounted on dire bat. Handles the animal to fly straight up 40 feet (double move). Makes his concentration check to cast while moving, and casts obscuring mist (assumed cast at midpoint of move, at +20).

He's now in the middle of a very big cloud, can dip down to 20-25 feet to summon, and forget wind wall, he's hiding in 160 squares of concealment. Good luck picking the right square, much less hitting.

This is why AC is best used for mobility and utility. The value of flight and getting 2 move actions without sacrificing spellcasting should not be understated.

[Killer Angel]

Not really. Druid begins mounted on dire bat. Handles the animal to fly straight up 40 feet (double move). Makes his concentration check to cast while moving, and casts obscuring mist (assumed cast at midpoint of move, at +20).


I don't contest that. I was just considering the scenario "dire bat wildshape" and the suggestion "against an archer use wind wall".

Related note: do we know for certain that the starting conditions of the combat, involve being already mounted?

[candycorn]

I don't contest that. I was just considering the scenario "dire bat wildshape" and the suggestion "against an archer use wind wall".

Related note: do we know for certain that the starting conditions of the combat, involve being already mounted?

General mundane preparations are usually considered done.

The counter argument would be, if the fighter player tried that level of pedantry: "if we're not starting with mundane preparations completed, please ensure that you start WITHOUT your armor donned, and with any weapons you may possess sheathed. Note that you may draw a weapon as a free action as part of a move action. Charge is, interestingly enough, not a move action."

The most foolproof anti-archer spell, if they cannot close the distance, is obscuring mist. Even on ground level, if they want to enter it, they can compete with several beefy creatures with scent, and a strong desire to bite them.

[Killer Angel]

General mundane preparations are usually considered done.

The counter argument would be, if the fighter player tried that level of pedantry: "if we're not starting with mundane preparations completed, please ensure that you start WITHOUT your armor donned, and with any weapons you may possess sheathed. Note that you may draw a weapon as a free action as part of a move action. Charge is, interestingly enough, not a move action."


Let me be clear: I totally agree on your position.
Only, we've seen in the past, arena duels with similar nonsense rules, such as "the DM said no prebuff spells allowed. Not even those with daily duration or 1day/level duration".
That's the reason I was asking for the starting conditions.

[candycorn]

Let me be clear: I totally agree on your position.
Only, we've seen in the past, arena duels with similar nonsense rules, such as "the DM said no prebuff spells allowed. Not even those with daily duration or 1day/level duration".
That's the reason I was asking for the starting conditions.

Prebuff spells are non-mundane preparations, however. When someone makes an argument for disallowing mundane preparations, however, you have every right to take it to the extreme, and demand that the archer doesn't start with any of his gear stowed, or held. So now his quiver is on the ground, along with each individual arrow. That's 21 move actions to pick them all up, assuming a 20 shot quiver.

It's generally not hard to get "basics of travelling" approved. That means mundane equipment properly equipped and stowed, along with riding any mounts.

Even if not, though, assume a medium sized druid with a 20 dex (after +2 item), and 11 ranks in ride, with a MW ride item? You're looking at a +18 to ride. Fast Mount is an ability you can do with the Ride skill (DC 20), that will allow you to mount as a free action. There's a 95% chance to mount as a free action, and a 5% chance of using a move action to mount, followed by a free action to handle your AC, followed by the standard action spell (assume a 10 Con, and 11 ranks in concentration, and you have no chance to fail at casting a level 1-2 spell while the mount is moving).

So even if you're not mounted, and have to spend a move action to mount, even then, you can cast the spell. Starting mounted, or Fast Mounting, just gives you an extra move action that you can use to draw something out, if needed.

[Gnaeus]

Not really. Druid begins mounted on dire bat. Handles the animal to fly straight up 40 feet (double move). Makes his concentration check to cast while moving, and casts obscuring mist (assumed cast at midpoint of move, at +20).

He's now in the middle of a very big cloud, can dip down to 20-25 feet to summon, and forget wind wall, he's hiding in 160 squares of concealment. Good luck picking the right square, much less hitting.

This is why AC is best used for mobility and utility. The value of flight and getting 2 move actions without sacrificing spellcasting should not be understated.

That isn't actually better than having your animal companion run up and pounce the archer. Once he is grappled, the arrows will stop, and if he is an archer he probably has no chance of escaping that grapple.

[sonofzeal]

That isn't actually better than having your animal companion run up and pounce the archer. Once he is grappled, the arrows will stop, and if he is an archer he probably has no chance of escaping that grapple.
One of my favorite 4th level builds is a Fighter who invests in both Archery and Grapple. Also, he takes Deflect Arrows. It works pretty well, at least in low-magic humanoid-heavy campaigns, which isn't saying all that much but it's at least something. He's got maxed climb, too, so he gets up on something tall, and Rapid Shot + Deflect Arrows means he can dominate an archery duel.. and if anything gets up to him then he can grapple them right back off his little perch.

Point is, archery + grapple might very well be in the same package, if it's a Fighter we're talking about. Improved Grapple is two feats, and the Fighter has 8-11 depending on whether they're human and if Flaws are in play. It's worth the cost, especially if you know you're fighting a Druid.

[candycorn]

That isn't actually better than having your animal companion run up and pounce the archer. Once he is grappled, the arrows will stop, and if he is an archer he probably has no chance of escaping that grapple.

Ok, let's say you pick a lion for your companion for that pounce...
and instead of a 14 Str archer, you get a 26 Strength Orc Fighter with improved grapple and Potions of enlarge person. +20 to grapple before potion, +25 after.

Now the flying bat is a better strategy. Bat/Obscuring Mist may not be the most optimal against every fighter build, but it is effective and useful against pretty much any build possible for a core fighter. Even if the fighter gets a flying mount, there's your Dire Bat's blindsight, and Speak With Animals.

There is no core fighter build possible that will outperform a druid mounted on a flyer with blindsight inside of a midair fog cloud. Doing this makes the battlefield hospitable to you, and hostile to your foe. And it only takes a round of actions. From there, you can do whatever you like.

[Krazzman]

Another thing.

In 3.5. Druids have Enlarge Person right?

Take an appropiate Quarterstaff for your end-size.

Cast shillelagh on it. Transform yourself into something really Large + Enlarge person or enlarge animal. Take buffs to your strength. (Yeah even alter self). Let your Animal Companion Grapple him and then destroy him with your shillelagh.

Assuming a huge form after enlarge: a normal quarterstaff would deal 2d6 with shillelagh 4d6 or a "normal" enchanted Greatclub.
assuming a strength of 28 (+9).
4d6+13 (without Power Attack which you could take).

If he focuses on AC - Grapple. Else outflank him.

This could be another possibility.

[candycorn]

Another thing.

In 3.5. Druids have Enlarge Person right?

Take an appropiate Quarterstaff for your end-size.

Cast shillelagh on it. Transform yourself into something really Large + Enlarge person or enlarge animal. Take buffs to your strength. (Yeah even alter self). Let your Animal Companion Grapple him and then destroy him with your shillelagh.

Assuming a huge form after enlarge: a normal quarterstaff would deal 2d6 with shillelagh 4d6 or a "normal" enchanted Greatclub.
assuming a strength of 28 (+9).
4d6+13 (without Power Attack which you could take).

If he focuses on AC - Grapple. Else outflank him.

This could be another possibility.

Not ideal. 26 Strength Orc tripper with combat reflexes would seriously cramp that.

The best way for a caster to beat a noncaster is to do just one simple thing.

Deny the noncaster the ability to effectively fight. Right there, the fighter cannot win.

From there, you find a weakness in his defense, and you exploit it. No resistance to Fire? Produce Flame. No resistance to electricity? Summon Juvenile Arrowhawks. Focused on range? Summon Giant Crocs to grapple. Focused on Melee? Shoot him at range.

You deny the fighter the chance to even play. That's the surest way to teach someone that caster > noncaster.

[Krazzman]

Not ideal. 26 Strength Orc tripper with combat reflexes would seriously cramp that.

The best way for a caster to beat a noncaster is to do just one simple thing.

Deny the noncaster the ability to effectively fight. Right there, the fighter cannot win.

From there, you find a weakness in his defense, and you exploit it. No resistance to Fire? Produce Flame. No resistance to electricity? Summon Juvenile Arrowhawks. Focused on range? Summon Giant Crocs to grapple. Focused on Melee? Shoot him at range.

You deny the fighter the chance to even play. That's the surest way to teach someone that caster > noncaster.

That's why you first grapple him. Or if he's not using things like this - Outflank him.

[candycorn]

That's why you first grapple him. Or if he's not using things like this - Outflank him.

You're not understanding. If you attempt to grapple, you enter his reach. Especially if he's enlarged. That means, AoO's, possible trip attempts, opposed grapple checks.

That is letting him play.

That breaks Rule 1. Don't let him play.

As a caster, it's your playground. Don't give him a ball to see what he can do with it.

You take all his toys, then beat him with them, then take his lunch money. Ideally, all without putting down your juice box.

[schnappes]

ok, you have lost if i were the fighter.
you arent good enough prepared. as if the druid is the only one that can drink potions...

you think you can just fly and are out of reach?
--> potion of fly

a wind wall is enough?
--> move around

what do you do if the fighter uses an invisible potion in the first round?
you havent prepared glitterdust or see invis. so he can hit you first

entangle?
---> freedom of movement


a fighter will wear boots with permanent expeditious retreat = +30 ft movement. so you are always in range for him. and he will be enlarged. cheap too. permanent shield spell? no problem. just level 1

how expensive are force arrows?

btw you wouldnt expect a flying enlarged fighter above you (maybe with lunge) that can hit you but cant be hit by most of your animals. so you have to summon weaker flying things

a ranged fighter would have many shot and rapid shot. if everything hits he could kill you in 1 round (i guess you have around 70 hp). i would buy a flaming composite bow



face this

[Gavinfoxx]

I beat you with a Wind Wall that is shaped around me. ie, I'm in the center of a 10' cube, such that you have to be directly above or under me to hit me with a bow. I suppose you could have a +1 Force Bow (+3 equivalent)?

[gartius]

you think you can just fly and are out of reach?
--> potion of fly

so that deals with a flying creature, a burrowing creature however...



a wind wall is enough?
--> move around

from the srd
While the wall must be vertical, you can shape it in any continuous path along the ground that you like. It is possible to create cylindrical or square wind walls to enclose specific points.



how expensive are force arrows?
+3 so 18,000 gp for 50



what do you do if the fighter uses an invisible potion in the first round?
you havent prepared glitterdust or see invis. so he can hit you first

he is in combat so dc 0 on that listen check to place the call lightning


permanent shield spell? no problem. just level 1

it may only be a level 1 spell BUT it gives an ac boost -they are worked out differently-good luck affording that 40000gp


btw you wouldnt expect a flying enlarged fighter above you (maybe with lunge) that can hit you but cant be hit by most of your animals. so you have to summon weaker flying things

except i am under the ground so you cant attack me either


a ranged fighter would have many shot and rapid shot. if everything hits he could kill you in 1 round (i guess you have around 70 hp). i would buy a flaming composite bow
emphasie mine
HOW are you affording all these expensive items again?

[candycorn]

First, the discussion is Core only. Let's remove everything that isn't.
ok, you have lost if i were the fighter.
you arent good enough prepared. as if the druid is the only one that can drink potions...

you think you can just fly and are out of reach?
--> potion of fly

a wind wall is enough?
--> move around

what do you do if the fighter uses an invisible potion in the first round?
you havent prepared glitterdust or see invis. so he can hit you first

entangle?
---> freedom of movement


a fighter will wear boots with permanent expeditious retreat = +30 ft movement. so you are always in range for him. and he will be enlarged. cheap too. permanent shield spell? no problem. just level 1

how expensive are force arrows?

btw you wouldnt expect a flying enlarged fighter above you (maybe with lunge) that can hit you but cant be hit by most of your animals. so you have to summon weaker flying things

a ranged fighter would have many shot and rapid shot. if everything hits he could kill you in 1 round (i guess you have around 70 hp). i would buy a flaming composite bow



face this
Ok, first: Custom items, such as permanent expeditious retreat? Not core.
Second: Personal range spells, such as Shield, can't be in a potion.
Third: Potions can only be made for level 1-3 spells. So Freedom of Movement is out.
Fourth: Action economy is your enemy here. You drink a potion. Druid just flies up and casts something. You drink another potion, Druid casts something else. You drink a third potion. Druid casts dispel magic.

The druid can dispel any potion buff you have, and probably easily. You cannot do the same.

There's another thread on this subject. I hope you submit a fighter entry.

[Mystify]

First, the discussion is Core only. Let's remove everything that isn't.
Ok, first: Custom items, such as permanent expeditious retreat? Not core.

Custom items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) aren't core?

[candycorn]

Custom items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) aren't core?

The guidelines for creating them are, but items themselves are not.

The guidelines are also just that: Guidelines. Not rules. They explicitly state that the formulas only apply if you can't estimate from existing items, and even then, they're estimates, not prices.

Also, permanency doesn't allow the shield spell.

[Big Fau]

Custom items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) aren't core?

The second custom magic items get allowed into a debate, the caster wins. Casters can make their own custom magic items, and do so at half (or less) of the estimated price. Fighters have to pay other casters to create a custom item, and have to pay full price, possibly more.

[Mystify]

The guidelines for creating them are, but items themselves are not.

The guidelines are also just that: Guidelines. Not rules. They explicitly state that the formulas only apply if you can't estimate from existing items, and even then, they're estimates, not prices.


So in a core-only game, you can't have custom items? That doesn't sound right to me. And if you can use them in a core-only game, then you can use them in a core only game, then you should be able to use them in a core only contest.

[Infernalbargain]

Aye, custom magic items allow a great deal of cheese to be had. Craft wonderous and make various 1/day items.

[candycorn]

So in a core-only game, you can't have custom items? That doesn't sound right to me. And if you can use them in a core-only game, then you can use them in a core only game, then you should be able to use them in a core only contest.

In a core + houserules game, you can. But the DM has to personally spitball the price of every custom item. All the game does is give a few guidelines. No hard and fast rules. And without rules, it can't be done, without a DM to houserule it in.

Not a problem in an actual game. A bit harder in a core only challenge.

[schnappes]

Also, permanency doesn't allow the shield spell.
this is no permanency spell...and i didnt say "drink a shield potion"

its a continuous effect on an item with the following cost
2000 gp x spell level x caster level x modifier

modifier=
x4 if spell has rounds
x2 if spell has minutes
x1,5 if spell has 10 minutes
x1 if spell has hours

shield spell = 4000 gp and not 40000 like gartius said
continuous enlarge = 4000 gp
mage armor would be 2000 gp
haste = 3x5x2000x4= too much



btw why does someone drinking a potion count as "in combat" for the listen check? it cant be dc 0 if the fighter is far away (not in charge range) and just drinking and moving (not running since you have only 1 move action in after drinking). this way you are able to hear every sip? doubt it


doesnt target a potion of dispel target only you? in your opinion we are able to create potions of fireballs and throw them, right? interesting. potion of silence? hit the druid (or just his armor) with it and he cant cast any spell? i win button


HOW are you affording all these expensive items again?
due to the starting money a level 8 character gets. around 35000 gp
a flaming composite bow costs only 8000-9000 gp

[tyckspoon]

this is no permanency spell...and i didnt say "drink a shield potion"

its a continuous effect on an item with the following cost
2000 gp x spell level x caster level x modifier

modifier=
x4 if spell has rounds
x2 if spell has minutes
x1,5 if spell has 10 minutes
x1 if spell has hours

shield spell = 4000 gp and not 40000 like gartius said
continuous enlarge = 4000 gp
mage armor would be 2000 gp
haste = 3x5x2000x4= too much


Ok, you know what a 'continuous item of Shield' actually is? It's a +4 Shield bonus. The formula you *should* be using for that one is 'AC Bonus (other)' at (bonus squared) x 2,500. Which is 16 x 2,500.. or 40,000. Or *maybe* you could convince somebody to be generous and say it should be treated the same as Armor bonus, which would be 16,000 (same cost as Bracers of Armor +4. Which is, interestingly enough, what continuous Mage Armor is and should be priced at) .. and if you honestly believe your numbers are the prices you should pay for those effects, I'm a bit surprised you didn't press for the Use-Activated Bow of True Strike.


doesnt target a potion of dispel target only you? in your opinion we are able to create potions of fireballs and throw them, right? interesting. potion of silence? hit the druid (or just his armor) with it and he cant cast any spell? i win button


Who said anything about a potion of Dispel Magic? It's a 4th level Druid spell, Druid just casts it normally.

[Clawhound]

As a rule, find the closest equivalent and pay that price.

Some custom items are easy, like potions or wands, or single-use items. Other custom items, such as energy-converted items, work about the same. Beyond that, pricing gets tough.

Essentially, magic items are priced by utility. If something is amazingly useful, its price should match.

[gartius]

a) drinking potion i would call that speaking so is STILL dc 0 to hear as you have to down the entire of the potion to gain the effect
b)also you are in a combat situation of an arena fight so are therefore 'in combat'

you cannot afford the flaming composite longbow-only 25% of an item can be spent oin start up wealth-you are spending >30%

tyckspoon says it why shield is not calculated the way you are doing it

also point made here by you- druids are not the only ones who can use
potions, -so far with the majority of the discussion has been using just spells that the druid can prep-he hasnt used potions yet to buff himself the same way the fighter has, he can do all you are suggesting, so potion of invisibility straight away and it becomes a simple wait game until the fighters buffs wear off so that the fighter is just a fighter, the druid still has all his spells at this point

[Doug Lampert]

As a rule, find the closest equivalent and pay that price.

Some custom items are easy, like potions or wands, or single-use items. Other custom items, such as energy-converted items, work about the same. Beyond that, pricing gets tough.

Essentially, magic items are priced by utility. If something is amazingly useful, its price should match.

Scrolls, wands, and potions aren't technically custom items. The feat description in the PHB tells you what you can make, how long it takes, and what it costs to make. The rules for what you can make and how much it costs are actually rules and for those items the DMG listing of items is simply a listing of commonly found examples.

Similarly weapons and armor have specific rules for stacking multiple properties on an item and how much this costs for the listed set of properties and what the prerequisites are for each property.

Finally intelligent items have rules for customizing other existing items.

But for anything else, if it isn't in the DMG it isn't a core item. There is no listed price, there is a table that is specifically and CLEARLY labelled as estimating prices, and the instructions for use are to first have the GM compare to existing items. Which is why you can't get continuous shield or mage armor for the cost that you'd expect to duplicate a level 1 spell, those bonuses have their own entries on the estimated cost table, and there are existing items to compare with.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a

That talks about the fallacy of not using the right formula, using the more common example that people try to pass along, the continuous item of true strike. It's good reading.

[Voyager_I]

The Druid can also just fly away as soon as you turn invisible and wait for your potions to end.


As for my potion Nova; that's just a cheesy way of killing him with a Pony. If you wanted to make it a bit more palatable, cut all the expensive potions, cast Greater Magic Fang and Barkskin yourself, and get the Pony some Horeshoes of the Zephyr so he can move through your Sleet Storm. An unoptimized Fighter could still die to it.

[candycorn]

this is no permanency spell...and i didnt say "drink a shield potion"

its a continuous effect on an item with the following cost
2000 gp x spell level x caster level x modifier

modifier=
x4 if spell has rounds
x2 if spell has minutes
x1,5 if spell has 10 minutes
x1 if spell has hours

shield spell = 4000 gp and not 40000 like gartius said
continuous enlarge = 4000 gp
mage armor would be 2000 gp
haste = 3x5x2000x4= too muchThese are not core rules. They are guidelines for estimating cost. They are no more binding in a core discussion than the DMG suggestions on whether or not Story XP is awarded.




btw why does someone drinking a potion count as "in combat" for the listen check? it cant be dc 0 if the fighter is far away (not in charge range) and just drinking and moving (not running since you have only 1 move action in after drinking). this way you are able to hear every sip? doubt itProbably not. That's what the animal's blindsense is for, and the listen check (class skill for druid, based of the druid's primary attribute) vs a move silently check (cross class for fighter, based off a fighter's secondary attribute), including armor check penalties, and a possible -5 if the fighter moves over half speed. Add on the druid can hide at the edge of the fog (with concealment) and still see out, and if you're in the fog, blindsense gets you. If not, sight does.



doesnt target a potion of dispel target only you? in your opinion we are able to create potions of fireballs and throw them, right? interesting. potion of silence? hit the druid (or just his armor) with it and he cant cast any spell? i win buttonNo, the druid just prepares Dispel Magic in a 4th level slot, casts it, targeting the fighter, and rolls 1d20+caster level vs every spell effect active on the fighter.



due to the starting money a level 8 character gets. around 35000 gp
a flaming composite bow costs only 8000-9000 gp8400gp, to be exact, +100gp per point of strength rating it has.


As a rule, find the closest equivalent and pay that price.No. As a guideline, the DM (not the player) finds the closest equivalent item, and estimates the cost of the item. There is no set price for custom items, nor is there any set rule for getting that price. It's no more reliable, to RAW, than a blindfolded man playing darts while drunk.


a) drinking potion i would call that speaking so is STILL dc 0 to hear as you have to down the entire of the potion to gain the effectBut the rules don't. Frankly, I've drank a beer. It's a lot quieter than talking.

b)also you are in a combat situation of an arena fight so are therefore 'in combat'True, so you can't take 10. That doesn't affect listen checks.


you cannot afford the flaming composite longbow-only 25% of an item can be spent oin start up wealth-you are spending >30%That's also not a rule. They recommend setting maximum wealth to 25% or 50% of total WBL, but there is no hard and fast rule against it.


also point made here by you- druids are not the only ones who can use
potions, -so far with the majority of the discussion has been using just spells that the druid can prep-he hasnt used potions yet to buff himself the same way the fighter has, he can do all you are suggesting, so potion of invisibility straight away and it becomes a simple wait game until the fighters buffs wear off so that the fighter is just a fighter, the druid still has all his spells at this pointInterestingly, the drinker of the potion is the effective caster. That means that any potion the Druid drinks can benefit from Share Spell. Think Fog is bad, try an INVISIBLE druid on a bat, summoning.

[gomipile]

[...]Also be sure to point out that wildshape gives you access to scent,[...]

Scent is not an extraordinary attack mode, and so is off limits to a core druid using wild shape. You need a spell (Enhance Wild Shape) from SpC to do that.

Also, my answer to how the fighter could win? With a 32 point buy: 18 Con and 18 Charisma 8 in all other stats, put level 4 and 8 bonus points in Charisma, take Leadership at level 6. :smallbiggrin:

[candycorn]

Scent is not an extraordinary attack mode, and so is off limits to a core druid using wild shape. You need a spell (Enhance Wild Shape) from SpC to do that.

Alternately, an animal companion or summon with such a detection mode, and Speak With Animals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakWithAnimals.htm), would be the core working solution.

Wildshape may not get it, but the other abilities a druid has can.

[Malroth]

Scent is not an extraordinary attack mode, and so is off limits to a core druid using wild shape. You need a spell (Enhance Wild Shape) from SpC to do that.

Also, my answer to how the fighter could win? With a 32 point buy: 18 Con and 18 Charisma 8 in all other stats, put level 4 and 8 bonus points in Charisma, take Leadership at level 6. :smallbiggrin:

Best fighter build ever

[Killer Angel]

There is no core fighter build possible that will outperform a druid mounted on a flyer with blindsight inside of a midair fog cloud. Doing this makes the battlefield hospitable to you, and hostile to your foe.

Personally, I would go for a dedicated charger with 2 items of fly, kinda Boots and a figurine of wondrous power (it could be a problem if the figurine isn't already activated, tough).
Probably it won't suffice, but if the druid make some mistake, I could somehow pose a danger.

[Xiander]

Scent is not an extraordinary attack mode, and so is off limits to a core druid using wild shape. You need a spell (Enhance Wild Shape) from SpC to do that.


My mistake, druid is not a class i have played a lot.

[schnappes]

Ok, you know what a 'continuous item of Shield' actually is? It's a +4 Shield bonus. The formula you *should* be using for that one is 'AC Bonus (other)' at (bonus squared) x 2,500. Which is 16 x 2,500.. or 40,000. Or *maybe* you could convince somebody to be generous and say it should be treated the same as Armor bonus, which would be 16,000 (same cost as Bracers of Armor +4. Which is, interestingly enough, what continuous Mage Armor is and should be priced at) ..


Potion of Barkskin +5 1,200 gp
Potion of Heroism 350 gp
Potion of Shield of Faith +5 900 gp

so the druid can effort 2 +5 ac bonus? that would be 100.000 gp. interesting. they start with around 30.000 gp... so the druid can cheat?

[TuggyNE]

so the druid can effort 2 +5 ac bonus? that would be 100.000 gp. interesting. they start with around 30.000 gp... so the druid can cheat?

I'm ... not sure what you're getting at here, but it looks like you're conflating custom continuous magic item prices, potion prices, and spellcasting. Please don't do that.

[Voyager_I]

so the druid can effort 2 +5 ac bonus? that would be 100.000 gp. interesting. they start with around 30.000 gp... so the druid can cheat?

Do you understand the difference between a potion and a continuous magic item?

Also, those were for the Pony, because it's funnier.

[schnappes]

Do you understand the difference between a potion and a continuous magic item?

Also, those were for the Pony, because it's funnier.
i do but the other guy doesnt understand the difference between a continuous items and a permanent ac bonus

[Xiander]

i do but the other guy doesnt understand the difference between a continuous items and a permanent ac bonus

Because by raw an item that continuously give a magical bonus to AC is more expensive than a continuous item of a different spell of the same level.

And that still does not explain why you drew the price of a potion of barkskin into it. Which is the same for the druid and the fighter... Unless the druid makes it himself, in which case he gets it much cheaper.

[The Winter King]

Custom magic items are core. So are custom magical traps. Custom automatic resetting trap of Hide from Animals triggered by attacking, anyone? Makes Wildshape and Animal companion, and majority of your summons(there are only 12 non animals you have access to) too. Grab a sling, they are free and ammo is cheap. Windwall is only a 30% miss chance, not immunity against slings and thrown weapons.

Now the druid can use magic traps too, I admit. However, the fighter can benefit more because there are plenty of spells that can render one immune to animals and summons(Hide from Animals, Protection from evil) Locate hidden creatures(locate object via searching for something they were wearing and finally detect animals)

[Taelas]

i do but the other guy doesnt understand the difference between a continuous items and a permanent ac bonus

There isn't one.

An item with a permanent AC bonus is an item with a continuous magical effect. They are the same thing.

Custom magical items are not just "allowed"; they specifically require an arbiter to OK them. An item "of continuous shield" is precisely the same as "item of +4 AC".

[Mystify]

There isn't one.

An item with a permanent AC bonus is an item with a continuous magical effect. They are the same thing.

Custom magical items are not just "allowed"; they specifically require an arbiter to OK them. An item "of continuous shield" is precisely the same as "item of +4 AC".

There is a large difference between a continuous spell effect and an item with a permanent Ac bonus. The pricing scheme is completely different.

[Taelas]

There is a large difference between a continuous spell effect and an item with a permanent Ac bonus. The pricing scheme is completely different.

Not when the continuous spell is an AC bonus.

[Mystify]

Not when the continuous spell is an AC bonus.
They can't be the same thing, because they would cost 2 vastly different amounts. Any sane DM would rule that the pricing for AC supercedes the spell-based pricing. The net effect of the item may be identical, but there is a clear distinction between the two effects.

[demigodus]

They can't be the same thing, because they would cost 2 vastly different amounts. Any sane DM would rule that the pricing for AC supercedes the spell-based pricing. The net effect of the item may be identical, but there is a clear distinction between the two effects.

Any sane DM would rule that if two items did exactly the same thing, one would be a few times as expensive as the other? So, determining the pricing of items by their effects is insane? I'd disagree.

[Mystify]

Any sane DM would rule that if two items did exactly the same thing, one would be a few times as expensive as the other? So, determining the pricing of items by their effects is insane? I'd disagree.

A sane DM would rule that the continuous spell effect does not follow pricing by spell effects, and would disallow that version of the item. Determining pricing of items by their effects is exactly what you should do. That does not mean that the two versions are the same, that means a DM needs to intervene.

[Rubik]

A sane DM would rule that the continuous spell effect does not follow pricing by spell effects, and would disallow that version of the item. Determining pricing of items by their effects is exactly what you should do. That does not mean that the two versions are the same, that means a DM needs to intervene.This is why I think the bracers of armor should cost the same as regular armor, and +5 hide armor should cost the same as +1 full plate.

[Taelas]

They can't be the same thing, because they would cost 2 vastly different amounts. Any sane DM would rule that the pricing for AC supercedes the spell-based pricing. The net effect of the item may be identical, but there is a clear distinction between the two effects.

The price estimates are estimates, and they presuppose that the effect in question doesn't exist already. Bonuses to AC already exist.


This is why I think the bracers of armor should cost the same as regular armor, and +5 hide armor should cost the same as +1 full plate.

Eh, no. A full plate +1 has disadvantages aplenty that hide armor +5 does not, and bracers of armor has none at all.

[schnappes]

Because by raw an item that continuously give a magical bonus to AC is more expensive than a continuous item of a different spell of the same level.

And that still does not explain why you drew the price of a potion of barkskin into it. Which is the same for the druid and the fighter... Unless the druid makes it himself, in which case he gets it much cheaper.
call it sarcasm?

[Mystify]

This is why I think the bracers of armor should cost the same as regular armor, and +5 hide armor should cost the same as +1 full plate.
Enchanting bracers of armor costs exactly as much as enchanting normal armor, though it does have a higher cap. The differences between various mundane gear are balanced out by a myriad of drawbacks and advantages.

[Augmental]

A sane DM would rule that the continuous spell effect does not follow pricing by spell effects, and would disallow that version of the item. Determining pricing of items by their effects is exactly what you should do. That does not mean that the two versions are the same, that means a DM needs to intervene.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this druid vs. fighter battle isn't taking place in a campaign - it's an arena battle, presumably with no "sane DM" watching over everything. I don't know the RAW on magic item pricing, but that's what people should be supporting their arguments with.

[olentu]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this druid vs. fighter battle isn't taking place in a campaign - it's an arena battle, presumably with no "sane DM" watching over everything. I don't know the RAW on magic item pricing, but that's what people should be supporting their arguments with.

Well the RAW is ask the DM so you know.

[Mystify]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this druid vs. fighter battle isn't taking place in a campaign - it's an arena battle, presumably with no "sane DM" watching over everything. I don't know the RAW on magic item pricing, but that's what people should be supporting their arguments with.
Well, I would say that any disputable items, as this shield item obviously is, would not be allowed. My earlier advocating for the allowing of custom items was for more straightforward items, such as the expeditious retreat boots, or a hypothetical +x skill item.

[Voyager_I]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this druid vs. fighter battle isn't taking place in a campaign - it's an arena battle, presumably with no "sane DM" watching over everything. I don't know the RAW on magic item pricing, but that's what people should be supporting their arguments with.

RAW is to ask your DM.

The system for custom magic items is a set of loose guidelines that are incredibly open to abuse. Just because you theoretically could make a given item with them does not at all mean that it's something that should exist.

Allowing custom magic items opens up a lot of potential to change this from a duel of classes to a contest to see who can abuse the system the hardest, and doesn't do much in the way of setting precedent.

[ShriekingDrake]

So, how did the clambake go? Can we get a play by play, your final build, his final build, etc? Or maybe it hasn't happened yet.

[Mari01]

So, how did the clambake go? Can we get a play by play, your final build, his final build, etc? Or maybe it hasn't happened yet.

It hasn't happened yet. It got put on hold when our group hit a breaking point when we encountered a dragon and the dragonwrought kobold turned on our party. We didn't know it couldn't attack ANY dragon; we thought it had a patron dragon and couldn't attack that specific color.

[ShriekingDrake]

It hasn't happened yet. It got put on hold when our group hit a breaking point when we encountered a dragon and the dragonwrought kobold turned on our party. We didn't know it couldn't attack ANY dragon; we thought it had a patron dragon and couldn't attack that specific color.

Well, then I hope you stood back and let the mighty fighter demonstrate his prowess with the Dragon and Kobold both. While it's unlikely that you'd be able to do much in the way of damage, at least your vigor spells could address the fighter's small boo boos post the fracas. :smallbiggrin:

[Andvare]

Do be sure to come back and tell us about it.

In my last game, the fighter got pretty miffed when my fleshraker cleared the whole target of the evenings adventure pretty much single handed (a small Gith keep on the body of Aoskar).
Then I got accused of creating broken overpowered characters, and my druid is not even a greenbound summoner.
:smallwink:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Do be sure to come back and tell us about it.

In my last game, the fighter got pretty miffed when my fleshraker cleared the whole target of the evenings adventure pretty much single handed (a small Gith keep on the body of Aoskar).
Then I got accused of creating broken overpowered characters, and my druid is not even a greenbound summoner.
:smallwink:

Well, if your group has a fighter, warbeast riding dog with good feat selection should be the most powerful animal companion can go. And then, it's still rather cruel.

[Taelas]

Also illegal. Warbeasts cannot be animal companions. It is an inherited template (which is obvious from the introductory notes: "The warbeast is a creature born and raised..." "Bred for exceptional strength..."), and 1st level animal companions are "completely typical for its kind except as noted in the sidebar on page 36", so it cannot have the template.

You could get a warbeast riding dog at level 4, I suppose, but at that level, it is far less powerful than at 1st (and I'd personally rather have a Fleshraker). Still, it's better than a black bear.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Also illegal. Warbeasts cannot be animal companions. It is an inherited template (which is obvious from the introductory notes: "The warbeast is a creature born and raised..." "Bred for exceptional strength..."), and 1st level animal companions are "completely typical for its kind except as noted in the sidebar on page 36", so it cannot have the template.

You could get a warbeast riding dog at level 4, I suppose, but at that level, it is far less powerful than at 1st (and I'd personally rather have a Fleshraker). Still, it's better than a black bear.

Isn't it just some time and a handle animal check to gain the template? Because then you can add that after you get it.

[Gavinfoxx]

There is the fact that you can, you know, take a normal animal and spend some months training it up to Warbeast, that means this is a contentious issue...

[Andvare]

Yes, and that is what I'm doing with my fleshraker...
Okay, that is overkill, but I'm tempted to go "that is not overpowered. This is overpowered!"

Edit: And a fleshraker is far more powerful than a riding dog. A fleshraker is downright broken.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Edit: And a fleshraker is far more powerful than a riding dog. A fleshraker is downright broken.

Yeah, I know, I said riding dog should be the max power level because you have one of the weakest classes in the game in your party, and it doesn't sound like he dipped pouncebarian or made a dedicated tripper (although the fleshraker could easily match the pouncebarian).

[Taelas]

No, you cannot just "add" it after the fact. The description of the template makes it abundantly clear it's an inherited template, not an acquired one.

Even if you disregard that, the training described in the book is not to turn an animal into a warbeast; it's simply to train a warbeast in the same way every animal can be trained (i.e. by the Handle Animal rules), with differences noted in the entry because a warbeast is not an ordinary animal. There are no rules for an animal "becoming" a warbeast.

[Voyager_I]

No, you cannot just "add" it after the fact. The description of the template makes it abundantly clear it's an inherited template, not an acquired one.

Even if you disregard that, the training described in the book is not to turn an animal into a warbeast; it's simply to train a warbeast in the same way every animal can be trained (i.e. by the Handle Animal rules), with differences noted in the entry because a warbeast is not an ordinary animal. There are no rules for an animal "becoming" a warbeast.

This.

You can give anything war training, but that doesn't apply the Warbeast template.

ie, a War Trained Pony is not a Warpony, it's just a Pony that kicks.

[ShriekingDrake]

Also illegal. Warbeasts cannot be animal companions. It is an inherited template (which is obvious from the introductory notes: "The warbeast is a creature born and raised..." "Bred for exceptional strength..."), and 1st level animal companions are "completely typical for its kind except as noted in the sidebar on page 36", so it cannot have the template.

Emphasis mine. This specific limiting language intrigues me.

[Mystify]

Emphasis mine. This specific limiting language intrigues me.
Well, for one, you can take the exalted companion feat, and get a celestial animal as your companion at -1 druid level.

[Rejusu]

I have a similar sort of thing in my group. Although we haven't started playing yet another player in our group already thinks his Samurai (the Complete Warrior version) is the most amazing thing and would be able to match my character. Never mind the fact his character sounds very unoptimized, his class is widely agreed upon to be so bad it's on the same level as NPC classes and he's comparing it to my Half-Giant Psychic Warrior spiked chain tripper.

I mean it probably wouldn't be as much as a curb stomp as Druid vs Fighter would be, but one on one I could easily crush him. About the only advantages he has on me are a higher AC and HP. That's not really going to matter when he's prone on the floor with a -4 to AC and attack rolls. I also think he's going to be trying to go the Imperious command route later on too, which means he'll have invested a fair bit in charisma. But until he gets it a fat lot of good it is using all his standard actions to make me shaken for 1 round is when I'm beating on him.

He also keeps going on about the fact the DM let him have fire immunity for his bizarre cooked up custom race and how he thinks it's the most broken thing ever. He doesn't seem to realise that there are plenty of things he's still vulnerable to. Especially since the DM paired his fire immunity with cold vulnerability. Not to mention that his race has no stat boosts, and only darkvision as it's other racial trait. Heck me and another player argued to the DM that he should have fire immunity just to throw him a bone because we felt his character was useless enough already.

He's a tier 5-6 in a party of tier 1-3's and he thinks he's a tier 1. It's just kind of silly.

[Clawhound]

Don't get me started about the Animal Handling rules. The skill is not useful as written. Unlike other skills, they don't add DCs, they just say, "No, you can't."

As for a warbeast, since that is an inherited template, then that animal with the warbeast template is EXACTLY typical of its kind. The trick here is how broadly or narrowly you define "kind".

For example, a pug is not typical of its kind, the dog. Therefore, Handle Animals can't be used to train a pug, which is nonsense.

If the animal is meant to serve an owner (domesticated), then it must be trainable with the Handle Animal skill. (That seems to be the minimum intent of the skill.) If the animal can't be trained to work for an owner (wild), then how is an NPC owner keeping such an animal in the first place? NPCs don't get special rules.

EDIT: By the way, "kind" is not defined term in D&D, which is a big problem. Did they really use that term? Sheesh. When someone created this skill, they sure weren't thinking. By time that they closed off all the abuses, they nerfed it into uselessness.

[Aasimar]

I'm gonna call shenanigans.

Obviously, the druid should win.

But it's rather unsportsmanlike to be boasting to your friend, no matter how justifiably, and then come online looking for absolutely ubermaxed ways to beat a fighter.

It's like going into a karate class and asking the teacher "Hey, can you teach me the quickest most brutal ways to beat up 3 year olds?"

Do you think he's making another thread going "So, how can I build a fighter that can hold his own against a druid?" if not, then what the hell are you doing here?

[Rubik]

I'm gonna call shenanigans.

Obviously, the druid should win.

But it's rather unsportsmanlike to be boasting to your friend, no matter how justifiably, and then come online looking for absolutely ubermaxed ways to beat a fighter.

It's like going into a karate class and asking the teacher "Hey, can you teach me the quickest most brutal ways to beat up 3 year olds?"

Do you think he's making another thread going "So, how can I build a fighter that can hold his own against a druid?" if not, then what the hell are you doing here?It's more, "I know how to beat him in one or two ways, but what are ALL the ways we can think of to humiliate him, 'cuz I wanna do them all.

That's how I read it, anyway.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm gonna call shenanigans.

Obviously, the druid should win.

But it's rather unsportsmanlike to be boasting to your friend, no matter how justifiably, and then come online looking for absolutely ubermaxed ways to beat a fighter.

It's like going into a karate class and asking the teacher "Hey, can you teach me the quickest most brutal ways to beat up 3 year olds?"

Do you think he's making another thread going "So, how can I build a fighter that can hold his own against a druid?" if not, then what the hell are you doing here?

Actually, the friend was the one doing the boasting (about fighters) and the one whose idea it was to settle things in the arena.

So has the fight happened yet?

[Voyager_I]

He's a tier 5-6 in a party of tier 1-3's and he thinks he's a tier 1. It's just kind of silly.

Well, duh. He's immune the most powerful spell in the whole game. How are Wizards supposed to be Tier 1 against him when they can't even use Fireball?

[sonofzeal]

By time that they closed off all the abuses, they nerfed it into uselessness.
*coughBubscough*

[candycorn]

Don't get me started about the Animal Handling rules. The skill is not useful as written. Unlike other skills, they don't add DCs, they just say, "No, you can't."

As for a warbeast, since that is an inherited template, then that animal with the warbeast template is EXACTLY typical of its kind. The trick here is how broadly or narrowly you define "kind".

For example, a pug is not typical of its kind, the dog. Therefore, Handle Animals can't be used to train a pug, which is nonsense.

If the animal is meant to serve an owner (domesticated), then it must be trainable with the Handle Animal skill. (That seems to be the minimum intent of the skill.) If the animal can't be trained to work for an owner (wild), then how is an NPC owner keeping such an animal in the first place? NPCs don't get special rules.

EDIT: By the way, "kind" is not defined term in D&D, which is a big problem. Did they really use that term? Sheesh. When someone created this skill, they sure weren't thinking. By time that they closed off all the abuses, they nerfed it into uselessness.

In that case, if you're referring to "Warbeast Fleshraker" as a kind that is seperate from "Fleshraker", and that each are typical of their kind, then I would challenge you to find rules text allowing druids to select a "Warbeast Fleshraker". I know rulestext allows the druid to select "Fleshraker" as an animal companion, and the "Fleshraker" is completely typical (i.e. identical to the monster entry for "Fleshraker") with the only exceptions being what is listed in the animal companion entry for them. That would not seem to cover fleshraker if they're considered to be a different kind from a templated fleshraker (and, since the base statistics are different, I would argue that this is the case).




Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind, but make the following changes.