Book of Good Latin?

[Silva Stormrage]

I always hear Libris Mortis referred to as the book of bad latin. What is it trying to say and how do you actually say that in latin?

Thanks for your help.

[Yora]

Liber Mortis is the correct latin gramar, I believe.

[sonofzeal]

I always hear Libris Mortis referred to as the book of bad latin. What is it trying to say and how do you actually say that in latin?

Thanks for your help.
I've heard it convincingly argued that "Libris Mortis", while an unexpected construction, is indeed what's meant when compared to the English version of the name given in the book itself. However, the nickname stuck based on a more naive reading that didn't bother to check what it was supposed to be translating.

[Silva Stormrage]

What does Libris Mortis mean then? I have heard that it correctly means something in latin but many people think that its supposed to be Book of the Dead.

[deuxhero]

"dead's book" is what the BoBL translates to IIRC.

[sonofzeal]

What does Libris Mortis mean then? I have heard that it correctly means something in latin but many people think that its supposed to be Book of the Dead.
"From the Books of the Dead", or close enough. Note the plural, I think that's what threw people off, including Yora. It's in the sidebar of page 4.

[Flickerdart]

In that case, I believe, the proper name would have been Ex Libris Mortis, though then you get people stating that the Ex is implied by the construction so I suppose it's something of a moot point.

[hex0]

In that case, I believe, the proper name would have been Ex Libris Mortis, though then you get people stating that the Ex is implied by the construction so I suppose it's something of a moot point.

And yet, when I see Ex, I assume you are talking about an Extraordinary Ability. I've been conditioned to read it that way... :smallsigh:

[Morph Bark]

And yet, when I see Ex, I assume you are talking about an Extraordinary Ability. I've been conditioned to read it that way... :smallsigh:

Better that than reading it as "something that used to be the Libris Mortis" or such.

[Hecuba]

In that case, I believe, the proper name would have been Ex Libris Mortis, though then you get people stating that the Ex is implied by the construction so I suppose it's something of a moot point.

That depends.

Excusing for the moment that I'm far too lazy to do proper accenting:
"Libris" is the plural form of "liber"/"libri" in both the dative and the ablative. In this case, it is almost certainly the ablative (specifically the fairly obscure Ablative of Source and Material, which was probably originally an aspect of the locative case). This usually takes of preposition, but it's dropped with some regularity for stylistic reasons.

Personally, I find Mortis far more problematic. It's the genitive singular of "mors"/"mortis." So it's possessive-- it belongs to the dead -- and the dead in question is singular, not collective. The books belong, not to the dead in general, but to one dead in particular.

It should probably be "Libris Mortium" if the books belong to the dead (collectively) or "Libris Mortes" if either the books are for use by/for the dead or the books are on the topic of the dead.

[Boci]

Isn't the title addressed and explained in a side bar early on in the book?

[Hecuba]

Isn't the title addressed and explained in a side bar early on in the book?

Technically? There's a note on page 4 dealing with in-universe derivation. It does note the correct meaning for "libris," which is something.

But the subject under question is the validity of the actual Latin Grammar.

Edit: Also, apparently Latin=Celestial. Who knew?

[sonofzeal]

That depends.

Excusing for the moment that I'm far too lazy to do proper accenting:
"Libris" is the plural form of "liber"/"libri" in both the dative and the ablative. In this case, it is almost certainly the ablative (specifically the fairly obscure Ablative of Source and Material, which was probably originally an aspect of the locative case). This usually takes of preposition, but it's dropped with some regularity for stylistic reasons.

Personally, I find Mortis far more problematic. It's the genitive singular of "mors"/"mortis." So it's possessive-- it belongs to the dead -- and the dead in question is singular, not collective. The books belong, not to the dead in general, but to one dead in particular.

It should probably be "Libris Mortium" if the books belong to the dead (collectively) or "Libris Mortes" if either the books are for use by/for the dead or the books are on the topic of the dead.
What if the books belonged to Death as an entity (http://www.toplessrobot.com/18-death.jpg)? Would that resolve the issue of the singular rather than collective?

[Hecuba]

What if the books belonged to Death as an entity (http://www.toplessrobot.com/18-death.jpg)? Would that resolve the issue of the singular rather than collective?

If we were generous, it could. The biggest problem is that they note it as being "of the dead," so I'm inclined to accept that they're at least trying to talk about the thing they say they are.

Additionally, Latin wouldn't have used that word for it. "Mors"/"moris" means "death" as it deals with corpses and not the abstract idea of death.

As in the "smell of death" (the stench of courpses) or the "rigor of death" (the literally of the corpse).


For death in the abstract, "letum"/"leti" would be used*. "Mors"/"moris" becomes acceptable if you get to Medieval Latin, but at that point "Ex" would no longer be dropped for stylistic reasons-- it would have been seen as necessary, as the from would no longer be understood by implication.

*edit: or "Nex"/"Necis" if it's specifically violent.

[Bhaakon]

To be fair, the general sense of mortis is recognizable to English speakers through modern Romance languages and some related vocabulary (like 'moribund,' and 'rigor mortis'). As far as I'm aware, no Anglicized form of letum/leti has survived in common use.

[sonofzeal]

If we were generous, it could. The biggest problem is that they note it as being "of the dead," so I'm inclined to accept that they're at least trying to talk about the thing they say they are.

Additionally, Latin wouldn't have used that word for it. "Mors"/"moris" means "death" as it deals with corpses and not the abstract idea of death.

As in the "smell of death" (the stench of courpses) or the "rigor of death" (the literally of the corpse).


For death in the abstract, "letum"/"leti" would be used*. "Mors"/"moris" becomes acceptable if you get to Medieval Latin, but at that point "Ex" would no longer be dropped for stylistic reasons-- it would have been seen as necessary, as the from would no longer be understood by implication.

*edit: or "Nex"/"Necis" if it's specifically violent.
All I'm really getting here is that, while a little awkward, it's within the realm of poetic licence.

"I am Death-With-Regards-to-Corpses. And I have books. Here's bits of those books."

Mors fits better than Letum in some ways because the books do indeed revolve around dead bodies more than the abstract concept, what with all the undead that are made of dead bodies. Works for me.

[Slipperychicken]

To be fair, the general sense of mortis is recognizable to English speakers through modern Romance languages and some related vocabulary (like 'moribund,' and 'rigor mortis'). As far as I'm aware, no Anglicized form of letum/leti has survived in common use.

It does get the meaning across to its readership. If it was titled "Ex Liber Moris", ~90% of readers wouldn't know what it was about, and we'd all be complaining it should have been written in English: "Book of the Dead".

[Curmudgeon]

As far as I'm aware, no Anglicized form of letum/leti has survived in common use.
Lethal? See Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lethal).

[hex0]

Edit: Also, apparently Latin=Celestial. Who knew?

I knew. :smallcool:

One of my co-DMs spoke decent German so in scenes where Dwarves were talking he would speak in German and then tell the PCs that knewn Dwarven what he said.

[Shadowknight12]

I think the problem is that they didn't bother discriminating the fact that "of the dead" can mean either "these books belong to dead people" or "these books talk about dead people." In Latin, the distinction matters.

[Krosta]

If the intended meaning was "The book of (about) the dead", I think "De Mortis Liber" should be a correct translation.
"Libris Mortis" sounds more like "of the books of the dead" to me :smallconfused:
In the Italian edition they changed the title in "Liber Mortis", by the way.

[Hecuba]

All I'm really getting here is that, while a little awkward, it's within the realm of poetic licence.

"I am Death-With-Regards-to-Corpses. And I have books. Here's bits of those books."

Mors fits better than Letum in some ways because the books do indeed revolve around dead bodies more than the abstract concept, what with all the undead that are made of dead bodies. Works for me.

I agree that Mors is probably a better fit for the undead. But I think I'm underselling the Mors/Death/Corpse thing. When we translate "mors" as "death", it's almost always to accommodate idiomatic English. You can almost always get a more literally correct translation by substituting the word "corpse". If such a translation isn't appropriate, Mors probably isn't either (at least till Late Medieval Latin).

I'm perfectly happy with mors as "undead one." I just find it slightly odd that it would be

"From the Books of the Undead One"
instead of
"From the Books of the Undead Ones"
or
"From the Books about the Undead Ones."

Though, this does give me the beginnings of an idea for a BBEG and/or evil god called the Undead One.

[Saintheart]

What if the books belonged to Death as an entity (http://www.toplessrobot.com/18-death.jpg)? Would that resolve the issue of the singular rather than collective?

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070309183055/uncyclopedia/images/b/bc/Discworld_death.jpg

NO. I AM NOT PERMITTED TO INFORM YOU, EVEN BY DEFAULT, ABOUT THE CURRENT POPULATION DENSITY OF THE AFTERLIFE.

[Heliomance]

The reason it gets called "The Book of Bad Latin" is that people assume that it's supposed to mean "The Book of the Dead", which it doesn't.

[DDogwood]

The reason it gets called "The Book of Bad Latin" is that people assume that it's supposed to mean "The Book of the Dead", which it doesn't.

Or you could read the whole thread, which would explain that it doesn't say what it claims to say, either. So it's still bad Latin; it's just not as bad as it seems. Kinda like Jessica Rabbit.

[Heliomance]

Or you could read the whole thread, which would explain that it doesn't say what it claims to say, either. So it's still bad Latin; it's just not as bad as it seems. Kinda like Jessica Rabbit.

The general consensus I've seen, in this thread and others, is that it kinda-sorta-maybe says what it claims to say. Whether it does or not in no way detracts from my point that most people that ask the question have no idea that it's supposed to mean "from the books of death" or whatever, nor enough Latin to know if it says that - heck, this thread has how many Latin scholars debating whether it does or doesn't say that, and what would be a better way to put it?

No, the common assumption is that it's supposed to mean "The Book of the Dead", as that's a culturally known thing. And comparatively more people have enough Latin to know that if it's trying to say that, it's wrong, without having enough Latin to work out what it does say.

[Yora]

There are several possible things the name could be supposed to mean. But in either case, the way it is called, is wrong.

[Valamir]

I hope this could help:
Italian translator changed the name in Liber Mortis which mean "The Book of Death" (Liber, libri=book; mors, mortis=death or corpse).
Libris Mortis can be, in my opinion, 1) just an error 2) an archaism for "ex libris mortis" 3) fantasy pseudo-latin.

[Elemental]

Agreed. It's clearly meant to be fantasy pseudo-Latin.
Before I comment further, I should probably consult my copy of Libris Mortis and the aforementioned side-bar.

Edit: There goes that idea, my PDF is on my other computer which is broken.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's called the Book of Bad Latin because there's another source of bad latin that was heavily lampooned by the OoTS comic when the Linear Guild attempted to recruit a mage, and several places in the book sound strongly similar to various phrases that might be spouted by an overly angsty teenager waving around a stick with a feather shoved up its center.

Besides, it's the perfect companion to Heroes of Horror, known as the Book of Bad People, which includes the Dread Necromancer base class, which gains a lot of useful things out of Libris Mortis, including a rather powerful minion. Depending on one's interpretation of the stacking rule, it could even be considered completely broken in ways that make even the Incantatrix flinch.

So, you have the Book of Bad People (HoH), and the Book of Bad Latin (LM) as a companion set. Two great things that go great together!



Edit: There goes that idea, my PDF is on my other computer which is broken.

For the sake of my conscience, I will assume that the PDF file was either legally obtained by purchasing it as a netbook or is being used for archival purposes. After all, the mods tend to frown on pirating books 'round these parts. Yanno, seeing as how the owner of the website makes his living off of copyrighted materials, he tends to get a bit testy about people circumventing the laws concerning such.

[hewhosaysfish]

There goes that idea, my PDF is on my other computer which is broken.

Is it broken? Or your computer dead?

[Novawurmson]

I knew. :smallcool:

One of my co-DMs spoke decent German so in scenes where Dwarves were talking he would speak in German and then tell the PCs that knewn Dwarven what he said.

This is awesome. I wish I could speak any language other than English well enough to pull this off in game.

Though I did have two players who could speak Japanese whose characters used it to discuss plans they didn't want the rest of the party to know about.