Haerta and the source of the Familicide spell...

[cloudland]

Since people have been throwing the idea of the Familicide spell around now, I tried to look back and see where it come from. We know very little about Haerta beyond that she's a epic necromancer that researched the Familicide spell. Nero is the one who provide her, and he is NE, so Haerta is also NE. The question is then, if Haerta have such a powerful spell and is Evil, why is she not a world conqueror when she lived?
I think of a few possibility:
-She cannot resist the spell herself, and everyone she tried to use it on might link to her somehow which prevented her from use it on human. In this case, if this spell has indeed affected Girard clan, Girard did not survive either.
-The spell is much much weaker than we thought.
-She died to Familicide on her first attempt to use it, because her target turn out to be related to her.
-She did rule at least part of the world. However, this does not explain why it was never mentioned anywhere else if she was so significant.
-She did not research this spell. Rather it was given to her by the IFCC or Tiamat. However, this does not explain why both the IFCC and Tiamat is surprised at the turn of event.
-She was not even from this world.
What do you think?

[Grey Watcher]

Since people have been throwing the idea of the Familicide spell around now, I tried to look back and see where it come from. We know very little about Haerta beyond that she's a epic necromancer that researched the Familicide spell. Nero is the one who provide her, and he is NE, so Haerta is also NE. The question is then, if Haerta have such a powerful spell and is Evil, why is she not a world conqueror when she lived?
I think of a few possibility:
-She cannot resist the spell herself, and everyone she tried to use it on might link to her somehow which prevented her from use it on human. In this case, if this spell has indeed affected Girard clan, Girard did not survive either.
-The spell is much much weaker than we thought.
-She died to Familicide on her first attempt to use it, because her target turn out to be related to her.
-She did rule at least part of the world. However, this does not explain why it was never mentioned anywhere else if she was so significant.
-She did not research this spell. Rather it was given to her by the IFCC or Tiamat. However, this does not explain why both the IFCC and Tiamat is surprised at the turn of event.
-She was not even from this world.
What do you think?

I always assumed that, while she developed it, she never actually got a chance to use it in her own lifetime.

Also, I never imagined her as a conquerer. I guess just so she contrasts against Ganonron and Jepth... whatever his name was, I pegged her as being driven by something like lust for vengeance. Which would definitely be the sort of mind that would conceive Familicide....

[ThePhantasm]

See this quote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11686399&postcount=36) from the Giant.


Sorry, I don't know a damn thing about those three characters other than, "I need three evil souls to represent the three parts of arcane power V doesn't have (conjuration, necromancy, and spontaneous casting), and each one should have one of the three IFCC director's alignments (LE, NE, and CE)." I have no idea why, for example, Haerta developed Familicide, I just know I needed V to cast it, so she simply did.

This quote brought to you by The Index of the Giant's Comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220195)!

[cloudland]

See this quote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11686399&postcount=36) from the Giant.



This quote brought to you by The Index of the Giant's Comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220195)!

Maybe he don't know why Haerta developed it, but still know why it was not used in her lifetime? Beside, discussion about it can also help us narrow down the possibilities so that we have more information about who Familicide can kill, or in case the Giant decided to reveal more information about it (a form of speculation you might say). Personally, I find the idea that Haerta killed herself with it seems to be the easiest explanation, though it's also quite anticlimatic.

[M.A.D]

Actually, we don't know that she didn't do any of those things. She could have conquered some countries or poisoned her husband's stepdaughter or turn some random prince into stone and cast Familicide on him to kill his twin brother. Or she could have cast Familicide on herself for the same reason. We don't know.

[ThePhantasm]

Maybe he don't know why Haerta developed it, but still know why it was not used in her lifetime?

No, I only posted a snippet of the quote. Follow the link and read the entire comment by the Giant and you will see that this just isn't the case.

You are free to speculate about anything you wish, but in Haerta's case, not only is there no canonical answer to the questions you seek, but it is highly unlikely that there ever will be an answer.

[sr123]

The Haerta problem is the main objection I would have to the Familicide theory:

If Haerta's past was not to be expanded upon, not even given a second thought, as it was all just a modus for which V can commit an evil act, then why bring back Familicide into the comic as now a central part of the main plotline?

[Diadem]

We don't know anything about Haerta. What makes you think she did not, in fact, conquer the entire world, using this spell to eliminate her enemies?

For all we know she lived thousand of years ago and every memory of her has long ago been forgotten. She may even have lived on the 1.0 version of the world. Who knows.

And who cares. She's clearly not important for this story.

[cloudland]

No, I only posted a snippet of the quote. Follow the link and read the entire comment by the Giant and you will see that this just isn't the case.

You are free to speculate about anything you wish, but in Haerta's case, not only is there no canonical answer to the questions you seek, but it is highly unlikely that there ever will be an answer.

I already read the quote, and what the Giant basically said is that he don't know the answer. We are speculating based on the comics, if the Giant said he don't know, that doesn't means we should stop thinking. Knowing how and what Haerta do with the spell can help us figure out what exactly does Familicide do. Sure, since the Giant don't know the answer, he might not have think it through and end up with a plot hole, but let's just assume it's not the case for now. (if we are to allow plot hole, no speculation never work).


We don't know anything about Haerta. What makes you think she did not, in fact, conquer the entire world, using this spell to eliminate her enemies?

For all we know she lived thousand of years ago and every memory of her has long ago been forgotten. She may even have lived on the 1.0 version of the world. Who knows.

And who cares. She's clearly not important for this story.

If she lived in the previous world, could she be the victim of the Snarl? How did she even managed to research the spell in the first place, does it because of something that the old world have? Can anyone research it again in this world?
And her importance kinda get amplified with the speculation on Familicide. Thing don't just happen, a lot of time the reason for stuff that are not central to the story are not explained simply because it's implied/trivial. But not so for Haerta because this spell is absurdly powerful. If the Scribble have a detailed backstory (rather than just "6 people who create the thing the protagonist are now trying to protect"), I think Haerta would make sense to have a backstory, whether the Giant elaborate on it or we just have to speculate based on the comic.

[ThePhantasm]

I already read the quote, and what the Giant basically said is that he don't know the answer. We are speculating based on the comics, if the Giant said he don't know, that doesn't means we should stop thinking. Knowing how and what Haerta do with the spell can help us figure out what exactly does Familicide do. Sure, since the Giant don't know the answer, he might not have think it through and end up with a plot hole, but let's just assume it's not the case for now. (if we are to allow plot hole, no speculation never work).

You are speculating about something the Giant said he has no plans to reveal. You are free to do that, but in doing so you should note:

1) You have basically no (zilch) information about Haerta's backstory to work with, so your speculation essentially amounts to fanfic.

2) If the Giant didn't plan on ever revealing Haerta's backstory and the historical details of familicide, there's a good reason for that: it isn't important. So your speculation will likely have no bearing on the strip as a whole.

[Gift Jeraff]

1) You have basically no (zilch) information about Haerta's backstory to work with, so your speculation essentially amounts to fanfic.I like to think Haerta didn't realize she was somehow related to Familicide's first victim, and that's how she died.

[Narren]

-She did not research this spell. Rather it was given to her by the IFCC or Tiamat. However, this does not explain why both the IFCC and Tiamat is surprised at the turn of event.


Why would Tiamat have given her the spell? How was she even involved before its use?

[FujinAkari]

If she lived in the previous world, could she be the victim of the Snarl? How did she even managed to research the spell in the first place, does it because of something that the old world have? Can anyone research it again in this world?

Why are you assuming Haertia was ever in the OOTSworld? She could (and likely is) from a totally different dimension just like... ya know... all the Gods?

[AlexanderRM]

I like to think Haerta didn't realize she was somehow related to Familicide's first victim, and that's how she died.

I like that as well. It's an awesome idea.

On that note, but in more practical terms: Does casting Familicide on someone harm them as well, or only their relatives? I feels like it would probably not harm them, you wouldn't cast it if they're an active danger to you, and you could always kill them personally the next round, but I feel like Haerta would have wanted to tell them that everyone related to them is dead and no-one will mourn their passing before killing them- as V did, actually.
Anyway, if so, then one (who doesn't care about their own relatives, which I imagine could be common among seriously, dedicated Evil people like Haerta) could cast it on oneself to guard against such an occurrence, thus eliminating anyone who might be closely enough related to her that using Familicide on them would kill her. :) (or >:) ? )

[Seiryu]

Just adding two thoughts to the theorycrafting here:

1) V was, due to the splice, at an incredibly high level when s/he used the spell. If Familicide does allow some sort of saving throw to avoid being instantly killed, Haerta might not have been powerful enough to kill everyone that was her enemy? As a comparison, Xykon killed a lot of people as well, and he doesn't rule the world.

2) It IS possible for an epic mage to develop spells that are impossible for them to cast, isn't it? Too high Spellcraft DC or something?


I don't really play D&D, only having read stuff like this out of curiosity, so feel free to correct me if what I said is wrong and/or makes no sense.

[Myou]

Just adding two thoughts to the theorycrafting here:

1) V was, due to the splice, at an incredibly high level when s/he used the spell. If Familicide does allow some sort of saving throw to avoid being instantly killed, Haerta might not have been powerful enough to kill everyone that was her enemy? As a comparison, Xykon killed a lot of people as well, and he doesn't rule the world.

2) It IS possible for an epic mage to develop spells that are impossible for them to cast, isn't it? Too high Spellcraft DC or something?


I don't really play D&D, only having read stuff like this out of curiosity, so feel free to correct me if what I said is wrong and/or makes no sense.

I'm pretty sure they have to make the spellcraft DC in order to actually learn the spell. So they would have to at least be able to cast it on a natural 20.

[Particle_Man]

She was apparently the most powerful of the NE mages that ever ended up under Nero's control. I am willing to bet that she did cast it. A lot. For fun and research, as well as survival. I am mildly surprised she did not end up as a lich, frankly.

Btw, I am also willing to bet that she cast it on Girard's family shown in 841. Since she was spliced with V I bet she knows what V knew about the Gates, and she had some free time to possess someone and cast it before she was recaptured, or could have cast it on behalf of Nero after recapture.

[Kish]

She was apparently the most powerful of the NE mages that ever ended up under Nero's control. I am willing to bet that she did cast it. A lot. For fun and research, as well as survival. I am mildly surprised she did not end up as a lich, frankly.
She may well have gone through being a lich before she died-died.

[rbetieh]

I like to think that, should the current consensus on the reach of familicide be confirmed, she simply killed herself accidentally on her first casting.

[Winter Light]

She was apparently the most powerful of the NE mages that ever ended up under Nero's control. I am willing to bet that she did cast it. A lot. For fun and research, as well as survival. I am mildly surprised she did not end up as a lich, frankly.

Btw, I am also willing to bet that she cast it on Girard's family shown in 841. Since she was spliced with V I bet she knows what V knew about the Gates, and she had some free time to possess someone and cast it before she was recaptured, or could have cast it on behalf of Nero after recapture.

I posted a theory along those lines in the 841 discussion thread.

Ultimately, while I think it's a very fun theory, I doubt the Giant's going to be taking the story in that direction.

I suspect he's had the current events planned for quite some time and, while I also imagine he deviates from his plans, I doubt he would have rewritten them entirely so soon after Haerta & co. showed up--since we know that when they appeared, at the very least, they did not seem to have much significance between boosting V's power.

So, while possible, and something I'd like to see, I don't think we'll actually... see that, being the reason for current events.

[Alias]

You are speculating about something the Giant said he has no plans to reveal. You are free to do that, but in doing so you should note:

1) You have basically no (zilch) information about Haerta's backstory to work with, so your speculation essentially amounts to fanfic.

2) If the Giant didn't plan on ever revealing Haerta's backstory and the historical details of familicide, there's a good reason for that: it isn't important.

You don't get to make that call. If anyone did it would be Rich, but neither does he get to make that call. What is and is not important in a literary work is up to each reader - and different readers will debate the merits of different parts of a story for as long as the story is read. Entire books have been written on such in the case of the most famous and influential writers of the language, such as Shakespeare.

As the writer, Rich can influence what we see as is and not important by changing the story. And since this story is ostensibly still in progress we accept that. By comparison, consider how much flak George Lucas gets for his revisions of Star Wars. Most of this is due to his arrogance and hubris in not respecting the line of writer and reader.

What's done is done. Retcons are unpopular for a reason. People latch onto things, sometimes strongly. Sometimes works have themes in them the author didn't even realize was there if the work is intricate enough.

It's also important to note that the author is not obliged to answer all or even most of the questions raised by the work. The best works invariably leave a lot of questions hanging while still telling their main plot.

Back on topic, I'm rather fond of the concept of Haerta accidentally killing herself with the spell. The irony is rather delicious. How climatic it would be depends on the staging of it.

[PetterTomBos]

This could have been a great story from the past.

Everyone knows there lives a necromancer with her court and kingdom of undead somewhere over the mountains. Suddenly every king and heir in the world dies and haerta usurps the thrones of the entire world. Her strongest weapon is familicide, yet she hesitates to use it, exept for the rare moments when anyone actually treathens her.

Out of the darkness comes a band of heros. Haerta knows they have a common heritage in her great great great grandfather Aeros, but do not know their faces. Together they fight their way into her grand halls, to force her to familicide them. With great relief they die, and watch her curse as she realise her mistake.

[Dervag]

I always assumed that, while she developed it, she never actually got a chance to use it in her own lifetime.

Also, I never imagined her as a conquerer. I guess just so she contrasts against Ganonron and Jepth... whatever his name was, I pegged her as being driven by something like lust for vengeance. Which would definitely be the sort of mind that would conceive Familicide....Remember the quotes associated with the three souls when the soul splice first happened.

Ganonron: "Crush the world beneath your heel." He's pretty blatantly a conqueror.

Jaepth: "Tear down creation, just to see if you can." A destroyer- and if you look at what his soul is portrayed as saying, he seems to be a stereotypical (relatively) low-intelligence sorceror, the sort of person who might think blowing things up is more fun than ruling them.

Haerta: "Destroy everyone who has ever slighted you." That sounds more like a revenge-oriented person, not a conqueror.

[sr123]

I am willing to bet that she did cast it. A lot. For fun and research, as well as survival.

In theoretical/mathematical ecology, there is an experimental approach to the "stability problem": Create a miniature ecosystem in a terrarium, then "remove" a species. Research.

(In my overview of the subject I included a slide of a kitten saying "Please don't remove me!")

For good measure, I again assert that the Giant's lack of concern for Haerta's background is the strongest evidence so far against the Familicide theory.

[ThePhantasm]

You don't get to make that call. If anyone did it would be Rich, but neither does he get to make that call.

What the heck?! I said people are free to speculate. Twice. In two different comments.


What is and is not important in a literary work is up to each reader - and different readers will debate the merits of different parts of a story for as long as the story is read. Entire books have been written on such in the case of the most famous and influential writers of the language, such as Shakespeare.

You don't have to tell me this. Nothing I have said contradicted this. Where is this coming from?


As the writer, Rich can influence what we see as is and not important by changing the story. And since this story is ostensibly still in progress we accept that.

Obviously the story is still in progress. But Rich has no plans to ever fill out Haerta's background. He isn't interested in it at all, and what is more, he said why he wasn't interested in it. He feels quite strongly about it.


What's done is done. Retcons are unpopular for a reason. People latch onto things, sometimes strongly. Sometimes works have themes in them the author didn't even realize was there if the work is intricate enough.

Retcons can happen, but until it overtly and explicitly HAPPENS, I'm going to take Rich at his word instead of thinking "Oh, Rich was wrong when he said that. He didn't know. He retconned it." Such thinking makes Rich's emphatic statement that he never wants to write Haerta's backstory essentially meaningless - it removes the whole force of that statement and capitulates it to "oh well authors tend to change their minds don't you know, heh heh."


It's also important to note that the author is not obliged to answer all or even most of the questions raised by the work. The best works invariably leave a lot of questions hanging while still telling their main plot.

I didn't deny this one time. What exactly did you think I was arguing?

I did set limitations for what the discussion could accomplish. And I didn't do it based on my own reasoning or some theory but on the words of the author himself. The two limitations I noted still hold true despite everything you said.

[Dervag]

Is Haerta's not having a background really evidence for Familicide not being the cause of the death of the Draketooth clan? We don't need to know why she invented the spell to know what it does. Familicide isn't supposed to be a spell of significant, common usage in Stickworld, it was introduced to the story to demonstrate the lengths V is willing to go to when you really do give him unlimited magic power and something to be angry about. He Cone of Colds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html) people for annoying him, what will V do to someone who threatens his family?

[ThePhantasm]

Is Haerta's not having a background really evidence for Familicide not being the cause of the death of the Draketooth clan? We don't need to know why she invented the spell to know what it does. Familicide isn't supposed to be a spell of significant, common usage in Stickworld, it was introduced to the story to demonstrate the lengths V is willing to go to when you really do give him unlimited magic power and something to be angry about. He Cone of Colds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html) people for annoying him, what will V do to someone who threatens his family?

Exactly. Nothing suggests Haerta's background (or lack thereof) is in any way relevant. There is nothing to suggest that at all in the comic.

[dps]

The Haerta problem is the main objection I would have to the Familicide theory:

If Haerta's past was not to be expanded upon, not even given a second thought, as it was all just a modus for which V can commit an evil act, then why bring back Familicide into the comic as now a central part of the main plotline?

We don't know that it's been brought back. That's just speculation at this point (frankly, speculation that I think is totally incorrect).

[skaddix]

Just because Giant had no idea when he originally created these three epics does not mean he has not figured out a back story by now.

[Petey7]

Just because Giant had no idea when he originally created these three epics does not mean he has not figured out a back story by now.

Except that the Giant said that he had absolutely no interest in making a back story for them and he said it 2 and half years after making the story arc they appeared in (aka 6 months ago). So, the evidence is against you I'm afraid. I have to agree with Phantasm. Any speculation about the backstory of Haerta is more or less fanfiction, and that Haerta's backstory is not relevant to the main story.

I'm not saying it's not fun to speculate about such things. I really like the idea that she killed herself accidentally the first time she cast it. I've never thought of that possibility before and glad someones else did and posted it.

[SavageWombat]

Since Rich has officially stated that Haerta's backstory is not created and not relevant, we are free to imagine one for her.

I move that we officially declare the "Haerta killed herself with her own Familicide spell" to be the most perfectly ironic death for her, and therefore the official story.

Who seconds the motion?

[Particle_Man]

Given that I actually played an illusionist that killed himself via reflected Phantasmal Killer off a surprisingly telepathic opponent, sure, I will second that. :)

[Red XIV]

The Haerta problem is the main objection I would have to the Familicide theory:

If Haerta's past was not to be expanded upon, not even given a second thought, as it was all just a modus for which V can commit an evil act, then why bring back Familicide into the comic as now a central part of the main plotline?
Why are we assuming Familicide has been brought back into the comic now as a central part of the main plotline? As of right now, that seems like an entirely unwarranted assumption.


Btw, I am also willing to bet that she cast it on Girard's family shown in 841. Since she was spliced with V I bet she knows what V knew about the Gates, and she had some free time to possess someone and cast it before she was recaptured, or could have cast it on behalf of Nero after recapture.
I'll take that bet. Seeing as she's incapable of casting spells as an unspliced spirit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html), and there's no indication she's capable of possessing anybody.

[ti'esar]

Given that I actually played an illusionist that killed himself via reflected Phantasmal Killer off a surprisingly telepathic opponent, sure, I will second that. :)

I want to hear more.

[One Skunk Todd]

You know the real problem with Familicide is it doesn't take into account the fact that people have friends outside of their families. Friends who might band together and come gunning for you with quite large numbers and resources if you're threatining enough. I would guess, based on her comments, that she was social outcast/misfit and wouldn't have understood how close friends can be.

[suzaliscious]

Killed herself by accident? You guys are not thinking Evil enough. Remember what Xykon did when he got his powers - well, if you've read SoD, anyways.

I know there's not an official backstory, but I'd think it far more likely that the first thing Haerta did after creating Familicide was cast it on herself.

(I know that Mama Black Dragon's head was reanimated at the time and that might exclude her from being "killed" by Familicide, but we have no reason to believe that Familicide kills the person it was cast on. It's very likely that it wipes out the person's entire bloodline but leaves them alive. It could be just the sort of sick, twisted thing an evil necromancer would come up with. "Everyone you could possible consider family is now gone - from your most beloved relatives to your most distant ones." Chick probably had major issues.)

It would probably kill any and all relatives Haerta might hate - we don't know her background but it would probably be a troubled one - while simultaneously preventing her from ever accidentally killing herself.

And THAT is what an Evil mastermind is actually like.

[SavageWombat]

Killed herself by accident? You guys are not thinking Evil enough. Remember what Xykon did when he got his powers - well, if you've read SoD, anyways.

I know there's not an official backstory, but I'd think it far more likely that the first thing Haerta did after creating Familicide was cast it on herself.

(I know that Mama Black Dragon's head was reanimated at the time and that might exclude her from being "killed" by Familicide, but we have no reason to believe that Familicide kills the person it was cast on. It's very likely that it wipes out the person's entire bloodline but leaves them alive. It could be just the sort of sick, twisted thing an evil necromancer would come up with. "Everyone you could possible consider family is now gone - from your most beloved relatives to your most distant ones." Chick probably had major issues.)

It would probably kill any and all relatives Haerta might hate - we don't know her background but it would probably be a troubled one - while simultaneously preventing her from ever accidentally killing herself.

And THAT is what an Evil mastermind is actually like.

I prefer Ironic Death to Evil Mastermind. But your point is valid.

[Sith_Happens]

Except that the Giant said that he had absolutely no interest in making a back story for them and he said it 2 and half years after making the story arc they appeared in (aka 6 months ago). So, the evidence is against you I'm afraid. I have to agree with Phantasm. Any speculation about the backstory of Haerta is more or less fanfiction, and that Haerta's backstory is not relevant to the main story.

You know, the more people bring that up, the more strong a feeling I have as to which character one of the Kickstarter backers* is going to have Rich write a PDF story on.:smallwink:

*No, it's not me.

[ti'esar]

You know, the more people bring that up, the more strong a feeling I have as to which character one of the Kickstarter backers* is going to have Rich write a PDF story on.:smallwink:

*No, it's not me.

I believe they've been confirmed as Therkla, pre-Order Belkar, and the CPPD, so it looks like your feelings are misguided.

[Petey7]

I believe they've been confirmed as Therkla, pre-Order Belkar, and the CPPD, so it looks like your feelings are misguided.

Yep. That's who were chosen, so, yeah.

[Red XIV]

You know the real problem with Familicide is it doesn't take into account the fact that people have friends outside of their families. Friends who might band together and come gunning for you with quite large numbers and resources if you're threatining enough. I would guess, based on her comments, that she was social outcast/misfit and wouldn't have understood how close friends can be.
Or she didn't use it for the same reason that V did. Haerta could have simply created Familicide as way to get truly massive revenge on anybody who sufficiently offended her. She was an Epic-level necromancer. And relatively high Epic, as we know she was higher-level than Ganonron and Jephton. Thus, I doubt she was particularly worried about the thought of somebody seeking revenge against her. She would probably have expected she could just kill anybody who attacked her.

V, on the other hand, probably would have thought of the notion that non-relatives could also seek revenge, if he/she had been thinking more clearly. After all, V's own family are all not blood relatives; they are (or rather, were) related by marriage and adoption. And for that matter, it's a safe bet that V would have a nice "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." ready if somebody were to kill his/her long-time friend Haley.

[Sith_Happens]

I believe they've been confirmed as Therkla, pre-Order Belkar, and the CPPD, so it looks like your feelings are misguided.

Where does it say this?:smallconfused:

[Petey7]

Where does it say this?:smallconfused:

Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12769203&postcount=13)

Apparently replies have to be at least ten characters long.

EDIT: Mutant Sheep...You're a reverse ninja, which is even scarier. I think....

[Mutant Sheep]

Where does it say this?:smallconfused:

Right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12783118#post12783118) Giant says so. So thank goodness. I can see Rich just making 10 pages of her going "I IZ EVIL I EAT PUPPAHS!" :smallamused:

Edit: Petey... you're a friggen ninja. :smalltongue:

[Particle_Man]

I'll take that bet. Seeing as she's incapable of casting spells as an unspliced spirit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html), and there's no indication she's capable of possessing anybody.

No it says she can't cast spells without a mortal host but it doesn't say that she cannot possess a mortal host. Isn't that what ghosts/spirits/etc. sometimes do? And there was time between her freeing herself and the three fiends continuing to talk a while after noticing this, and then the one fiend eventually getting off his butt and doing something about capturing her. And I wonder how much info she got from V when she was spliced with V? Could be a "side" in her own right? But if her motive was simply revenge, is it just revenge on V? On the IFCC?


I want to hear more.

Well I tried a pathfinder gnome sorcerer that only took illusionist spells without major material components or foci (so never needed to have any major material components/foci around except for a few arcane bloodline spells that came with the package). It was a lot of fun, and I took the feats that helped up the DC of illusion spells.

Trouble was, I upped the DC so high that I couldn't easily save against my own spells, and when I cast phantasmal killer, it usually worked (I even one-shotted a dragon!) and I got cocky. I cast it on an opponent in a group of four, but they were in telepathic contact at the time and by the rules of the spell, if someone with telepathy makes the disbelieve save, they send the spell back onto the caster. They got very lucky on their saving throw; I didn't.

Twas a very ironic death, and fitting, I'll give it that.

[pendell]

I think Haerta wasn't a conqueror because that wasn't her motivation. The first words she spoke to V was "destroy everyone who ever slighted you."


I suspect she made herself into a mortal personification of the goddess of vengence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Triple_Hecate), like Medea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea). Somewhere along the way, someone crossed her, and she made that person and their family pay.

Possibly several persons, and several families.

What purpose conquest, or material gain? What motivated her was pride and revenge. You don't need wealth for that. Only the power to smite down those you hate.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[veti]

I know there's not an official backstory, but I'd think it far more likely that the first thing Haerta did after creating Familicide was cast it on herself.

That makes excellent sense.

And then one of her distant relatives, who just happened to be a high-level adventurer, got raised by another character in her party and came after Haerta. Who cast Familicide on her.

Moral: there's no escape from irony.