Need Weapons for a Battle at Sea

[Palanan]

The first major encounter in my new campaign will be a battle between two sailing ships, one of which the PCs will be defending. Their ship is mainly based on the H.M.S. Surprise (http://www.ctbasses.com/misc/BruceTrinque/surprise.html), with one major difference: there won't be any of the multi-ton, muzzle-loading cannon that defined a fighting frigate.

So, I could use suggestions for other weapons that could be mounted for defense on a sailing ship. I'd like these to be as historical as possible, and strictly non-magical; this probably means something based on Roman artillery, although I'm open to ideas from just about anywhere.

Stats to run the weapons in the encounter would also be essential. Any suggestions?
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[gallagher]

nonmagical? ok, the history major in me is starting to churn the ol' wheel (though i studied american history, but what can you do at this point, right?)

you will need short, medium and long range threats. short range is needed because people will be able to, at times, swing themselves aboard, swim aboard, or try and do something against your main hull to try and sink you. have men with weighted nets (sink the swimmers, tie up the airbone guys) and harpoons (they are just plain nasty). harpoons are also good against sea creatures that might try and go underwater for cover, since it can be thrown into water and will damage them again if they try and pull it out during that "rest round"

medium and long range can be covered with seige weaponry if you are unwilling to up your cannon count. i still say that a ballista is the best medium range weapon you can ask for, but i am not sure where the stats are for those

[Mystify]

medium and long range can be covered with seige weaponry if you are unwilling to up your cannon count. i still say that a ballista is the best medium range weapon you can ask for, but i am not sure where the stats are for those
Oddly enough, under wilderness:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm

[Palanan]

I appreciate the link; I never would have looked for it under Wilderness.

Unfortunately, the SRD and historical realism have never really had much to say to each other. Even a light ballista needed a crew of more than one. And the SRD is assuming something like an oversized crossbow, firing arrows. I'm looking for something that would fire stone shot, or maybe something like an orc shotput.

So, I'm open to other sources besides the SRD--anything from WotC, or decent third-party material, or even well-designed homebrew. Anything to give me a few more options to work with.
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[gallagher]

Oddly enough, under wilderness:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm

now all we need is to find where the stats are for an onager. for those who are unaware, it was a short ranger catapult-like mechanism that used torque from a rope coil for power. two men were required to move, aim, and wind the coil, but the shot sent several smaller, often flaming rocks about half the size of a cannonball at very rapid speeds. the high speed+ability to have them be on fire shotgun-like spread would be very effective against a ship if you can get within 80 feet.

i would have like, a small deck-like opening closer to the waterline so you can attempt to start a fire in the lower part of the other ship. also, it is likely that the other ship will be unprotected there, so you will have a bunch of free shots without people firing at you

[Gavinfoxx]

Ballista, Repeating Ballista, various types of Catapults and Onagers and such. Archers... A ram. One of those Roman Raven's Beak things. Mostly, you won't be actually threatening the integrity of the ship itself with anything other than a ramming attack; you'll be closing to ram and then board the ship.

[gallagher]

get a catapult of any size you like and fill it up with alchemist fire bottles (or, if you can swing it, one giant one. or a bunch that are all bundled together.

but make it rain... FIRE

bonus point if you have a bunch of archers shoot at this bundle of fire bombs like right before it hits the other ship, so they get a tidal wave of fire

anyone who doesnt get hit needs to make a will save AND a fortitude save or pee their pants

[Alleine]

Heroes of Battle pg 63 has several types of siege engines. Includes ballista, trebuchet, something called a mangonel which is some sort of catapult, and a 'scorpion' which is a more compact but powerful catapult.

[Gavinfoxx]

Flamethrowers!

Seriously. Byzantines had both a man portable flamethrower and a crew served flamethrower, which was often seen on ships.

[Myou]

Flamethrowers!

Seriously. Byzantines had both a man portable flamethrower and a crew served flamethrower, which was often seen on ships.

Seconded - ships with large flamethrowers spitting greek fire,which acts very like napalm. :smallbiggrin:

[Johel]

I would go for an all-ballista ship.
Basically, yeah, no cannons but the closest thing to it, as it is the most practical to mount on a ship.

1) No minimum range.
Unlike catapults.
This means you can still have the crew firing the damn things up to the last minutes.
And therefor delivering a point-blank volley.
Against something as massive as a ship, you can't miss.

2) No high arc for firing.
While some may say it is a disadvantage, it is actually a plus when you mount them on a ship which was meant to accomodate cannons.
There is only so much space to fit a catapult on the open deck.
While 20 ballistas can easily fit along the ship's hull.
So you would go for quantity rather than quality.

Your opponent may fire 4 catapults from over 800 feet away with -8 on atttack roll and inflict an maximum of 144 damages per volley

You would be firing back with -10 on attack roll... but you would fire 20 ballistas.
Maximum 480 damage per volley.

The target is colossal so it would be -8 on AC.
So the range penalty isn't really an issue.

[Voyager_I]

Mostly, you won't be actually threatening the integrity of the ship itself with anything other than a ramming attack; you'll be closing to ram and then board the ship.

This deserves emphasis. It is very, very hard to sink a ship by throwing rocks at it. Your attacks will be mostly directed at killing the crew, destroying its ability to move (oars and sails are much more delicate than the hull itself), and possibly setting it on fire.

Also keep in mind that the sails will greatly limit the amount of firepower you can put on the main deck. Siege engines with large arcs of movement simply won't have room to operate, and your ability to mass archers will be impeded.


Honestly, you might have some trouble making a believable adaption of a ship that was built to be a platform for weapons that don't exist in your campaign.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, you can't actually SINK ships without fire... and the rules for ballista in D&D SUCK, since they are generally supposed to be anti-infantry weapons...

That's why I wrote up this creature, to be a --yaknow-- credible ranged threat...

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1441

[Andrewmoreton]

Prior to the age of cannon at sea the main battle tactic was boarding the enemy catapults etc are not terribly effective or accurate on ships. Ramming was used but it was hard to avoid being sunk yourself when you got locked in the enemy ship , or being boarded by the ship you rammed. Archery and light ballista were used to attack the enemy crew before boarding.

Greek fire was occasionally effective but difficult to use without burning your own ship, it seems to have been decisive in battle of very few occasions.

Also ships in the medieval period were smaller and less seaworthy than those of the age of sail this smaller size tended to make boarding easier and allowed oar powered ships to dominate naval warfare, even in the North sea Norse and Anglo saxon vessels favoured oars for battle using sails only for transit. Ships also stayed close to the coast most of the time as navigation was dubious and storing freshwater difficult.

Much of this changes with magic of course but without cannon ships like HMS Suprise would not have been built , historically of course they also could not have been built as the art of shipmaking advanced at the same time weapons did.

[Gavinfoxx]

There were some incredibly large ships built pre-cannon, of course, never forget that... often river barges, but a few that were (relatively) seaworthy...

[Doorhandle]

Try pathfinder, and ultimate combat. The book and the websites it is hosted on, had detailed rules for both siege weapons and vehicles of all kinds, and spells that can buff them.

Speaking of spells, be aware of how they might interact with ship combat. Animate object would be leathal both on your ship and theirs, while we all know the horror stories of using warp wood, create water, or spark on the opposing ship. This IS a fantasy setting.

Finally, be aware of RAW/RAI conflict. While ships in real life were hard to break, I have heard comments saying that in D & Deritves they have less hitpoints than they really should, and that the pathfinder driving rules make the process much harder than it should be.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by gallagher
now all we need is to find where the stats are for an onager. for those who are unaware, it was a short ranger catapult-like mechanism that used torque from a rope coil for power.

Yup, the onager is one of the first options I thought of, but I think even the small ones would be too unwieldy to use on a heaving deck, owing to the overhead arm.



Originally Posted by Alleine
Heroes of Battle pg 63 has several types of siege engines. Includes ballista, trebuchet, something called a mangonel which is some sort of catapult, and a 'scorpion' which is a more compact but powerful catapult.

Thanks for the reference, that's very helpful. Like the onager, though, the trebuchets, mangonels and similar catapults are pretty much out of the question, given that the ship is a three-masted frigate. As you can see here (http://www.tallshiprose.org/photos/main.php?g2_itemId=668), the sails and rigging take all the space for themselves.

However, what they're calling the "scorpion" is almost a perfect fit for what I had in mind, although the historical scorpio fired arrows. (And, because history likes to have its fun, scorpio was also an earlier synonym for the onager. Go figure.) But this version works very well for what I had in mind.



Originally Posted by Voyager_1
Honestly, you might have some trouble making a believable adaption of a ship that was built to be a platform for weapons that don't exist in your campaign.


Originally Posted by Andrewmoreton
...but without cannon ships like HMS Suprise would not have been built , historically of course they also could not have been built as the art of shipmaking advanced at the same time weapons did.

Both of these points have certainly occurred to me, especially since the campaign takes place in the Forgotten Realms. I spent a lot of time trying to work out exactly what ships are available in the Realms, and what degree of naval sophistication the coastal regions would have.

That was actually pretty frustrating, since the sourcebooks don't much help. The writers like to sprinkle terms like "caravel" across the text to give it a vaguely period flavor, but there's no real consistency in naval technology. It's very broadly medieval, certainly, and has an Age-of-Exploration feel to it; but in the end I simply decided to advance shipbuilding ken to allow for the designs I wanted. Given that the history of the Realms extends back tens of thousands of years, it's easy enough to allow for the diffusion of techniques from older cultures.



Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx
There were some incredibly large ships built pre-cannon, of course...


Oh, yes. A Greek writer named Athenaeus described a monster galley over four hundred feet long, which was apparently a catamaran: two colossal galleys supporting a broad platform between them, where a large force of marines could muster on deck. It was built for Ptolemy IV of Egypt, and although it was probably more of an emblem of royal prestige than anything, it would have been one of the largest human-powered vessels in the world.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also remember that there are some places in the realms where you would find, you know, some Gond worshiper working on an Ironclad...

[Palanan]

Yeah, that too. :smalltongue:

In fact, it might look something like this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MW_Stormwrack/03_Stormwrack_150_ppi_vmn20.jpg), although the design lacks a certain gnomish panache.

[A Lawful Rogue]

I think that the ancient japanese had some sort of huge rectangular ship, with four or so levels and a large open deck on top. It was powered by oars but I think it had cannon. Replace them with those Ballistae everyone's always talking about and you'd probably still have room to mount a trebuchet or two on top. Even though Ballistae are kinda' weak, thirty on each side would still be a credible threat; and if you scored a hit with the Trebuchet, it would just put a gaping hole through every deck of the enemy ship. I don't know about D&D but in real life that's and instant kill.

[ARTHAN]

Greek fire was occasionally effective but difficult to use without burning your own ship, it seems to have been decisive in battle of very few occasions.


Quite the opposite, Greek Fire was a tremendous weapon and very effective for its time. There was no risk in burning your own ship, since Byzantines used long pipes to throw the 'liquid fire' against Arab ships. Of course, Byzantines were seafaring people and much more skilled naval fighters than the 'land-besotted' Arabs, but their victories against them wouldn't be so devasting if Greek Fire was not present. :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire