Shugenja Courtier? (L5R 4E)

[Tunos]

Looking to get into my first L5R game (4e) and I'm leaning towards a shugenja or a courtier (depending on the type of campaign - there's a place for shugenja in both).

I'm wondering how practical it is to have a shugenja sere the role of courtier?

I was thinking about having a Crane Asahina (of the Asahina school) take some courtier, etiquette and sneak ranks and then using his air affinity spells to learn information from other members at court and then use that information in courtly dealings.

Is this at all practical? Is it simply too difficult to cast the kind of spells I would need (like the one that lets me read a target's mind) in open court? Would sneak-casting spells just plummet my honor rating? Does honor rating even matter?

Open to all opinions and suggestions, thanks.

[jbr712]

Courtier is perhaps the easiest character to replace in my experience. Granted, most of that experience is in wartime campaigns where the courtier is quite out of his element on the battlefield - though an excellent quartermaster.

It is entirely possible for a shugenja to step into the role of courtier, just be aware that a courtier will still usually best you in word play since that is pretty much all they do. Off the top of my head, "Know the Mind" is the lowest level spell for the kind of information hunting you seem to want to do. Now looking at my rule book, it's a 4th rank spell. Keep in mind, it would take four rounds without raises and I'm fairly sure it takes longer to cast than it actually lasts, so its usefulness can be questionable at times.

As for using these spells in open court, that doesn't seem like the best idea. Courtiers tend to have high mental stats, shugenja need more balanced rings since their casting is ring dependent rather than trait dependent; so generally a courtier will have higher perception than an air shugenja has agility (the default for stealth, though for this a GM may rule another trait more appropriate). Speaking solely from my brief experience as a Yogo Ward Master, people tend to get antsy when a shugenja is casting a spell. That could be, however, because about half the people in the area knew of his reputation as a fire shugenja.

"Benten's Touch" is a pretty good spell which you could cast before going into court since it has a lengthy duration and only takes a few seconds to cast (two rounds).

As for honor: Yes, you do lose honor for using the spell casting emphasis of stealth. Is that important to a courtier/courtier-substitute? It can be, since a number of things which can ruin your career require rolls which add your honor rank to them (want to avoid being seduced into a blackmail-able affair? the contested roll adds your honor rank to resist temptation). Some courtiers have effects which become stronger proportionally with the gap in honor as well - I can't think of any off hand but I'm sure there is something, I've never played a courtier so I'm not an authority on techniques.

For the record, Benton's Touch is on page 168 of the core rule book. Know the Mind is on page 171.

[Tunos]

Yea, Benten's Touch was definitely one of my considerations when thinking up this character.

The mind reading thing (at rank 4) seemed like it would be difficult to employ effectively. But I also thought some rank 2s like Secrets on the Wind and Whispering Wind could have some advantages in court.

I just wasn't sure if it would be worth forgoing a normal courtier's techniques for those spells.

[jbr712]

Shugenjas can work just fine in court, not every "courtier" is mechanically a courtier. That being said, a shugenja in court is about as devastating behind the scenes with it's ability to gain information through spells, as a courtier is in open court with its techniques. It depends on how you want to play the character, there is plenty of space in court for shugenja.

Had not read Secrets on the Wind prior to your mentioning it, that would have very interesting implications.

[Tunos]

Yea - I would think the ability to hear secret conversations would come in very handy in court.

I had also toyed with the idea of a Fox shugenja who used animals to gather information...

I guess the idea behind both characters is to use information to win social situations where other courtiers would use etiquette.

[GlasgowPhill]

The other thing to consider for shugenja is spell research. I'm playing a shugenja with a courtly side and am working on a courtier's version of The Hungry Blade (fire spell) by making it an air spell instead but retaining much of the mechanic. I expect it means on most contested rolls I'll be able to match if not beat even proper courtiers.

Friendly Whispers (air 3)
The kami of air whisper sweetly in the ears of others while the samurai talks, the acoustics of his speech are sharpened in pitch and tone by the air itself and those who hear his arguements cannot help but be swayed.
On contested social rolls the beneficiary of this prayer has dice explode once on 8s or 9s as well as normally on 10s. (In addition the beneficiary gains a bonus of +1k0 on rolls involving his voice.)
Duration 1 hour

*you can keep or lose the part in parentheses depending on how closely you want to mirror the fire spell and how much your GM reckons it's already good enough.

[IdleMuse]

I reckon the Soshi is one of the better shugenja schools for courtiering. Among air shugenja, the obvious choice for courtiers, their school technique is amazing for casting spells while at court, and their free raise is on a highly useful class of spells. They also (admittedly like many other air shugenja) get a school increase to Awareness, making them competent courtiers out of the box. Starting as a Shosuro family member as well for the double awareness boost, you can even start with Air 4 with your base xp.

But tl;dr, the Soshi school technique is amazing for courtly shugenja.

[Tunos]

I reckon the Soshi is one of the better shugenja schools for courtiering. Among air shugenja, the obvious choice for courtiers, their school technique is amazing for casting spells while at court, and their free raise is on a highly useful class of spells. They also (admittedly like many other air shugenja) get a school increase to Awareness, making them competent courtiers out of the box. Starting as a Shosuro family member as well for the double awareness boost, you can even start with Air 4 with your base xp.

But tl;dr, the Soshi school technique is amazing for courtly shugenja.

Yea their technique was pretty enticing, but I think the group is going to have at least one or two other Scorpions and I wanted to add some diversity - it's definitely a consideration for a future campaign though.

[Saladman]

A shugenja with courtier skills is entirely viable, and in many or most campaigns is going to be more flexible than a focused courtier. And speaking of most campaigns, unless you're certain the game is court-only, have some kind of spell or tactic for use in combat as well.

As was pointed out, you do lose out on having courtier techniques, so true courtiers are always going to have an edge where they can bring those to bear, but you should be able to hang with them on skill ranks, and spells make up part of the difference. But the answer to your question about hiding the casting is you're not always going to be able to get those off. When you have time to prep, or can catch a private moment, great, but have a plan to work without them. Also, read up on Commune; there's a lot there for what you're after when you get a chance to bring it to bear.

I'm generally pro-roleplaying considerations and anti-whatever clan gives you the most pluses, but with two Scorps in the group already, playing another one becomes a tempting option. If you stick with Crane, take a look at the allies advantage and talk to your GM about one who might fall within the scope of the campaign. Not that allies are always on-screen, but it can help to have an npc with influence who won't want to see you burned.

Similarly, see what kind of ties you can build with other player characters. That can be purely a role-playing thing, such as being in-laws or cousins with a character of another clan, or a mechanical link such as a reciprocal Kharmic Tie (well, KT's not so strong for shugenja-courtier actually, but that's the idea).

Bonus points if you can just talk someone else into playing your Daidoji bodyguard or Kakita champion. If you do stumble into this, be willing to back him up.

[TheOOB]

It is far easier for a bushi or a shugenja to act as the parties courtier than the other way around. Courtier school powers tend to, for the most part, very very powerful but also very situational, meaning they rely primarily on their skills under most circumstances, which as a shugenja you can do just fine.

Natural the best shugenja to use for the job would be an Air affinity one, as there are several air spells that are very useful in court settings.

As a general rule, I don't think a party needs an actual full fledged courtier unless either a) the campaign is almost entirely court focused, or b) the party is large enough where it can afford someone that specialized who has no abilities that help in combat.

[Tunos]

I appreciate the input all but it looks like the adventure we're going to wind up with is completely un-court focused so I'll be playing a Shiba ishiken-do instead.

I'll definitely keep the Asahina shugenja in mind for whenever I wind up in a court game though.

Thanks again.