Ugly yet Charismatic, Pretty yet Repulsive.

[INoKnowNames]

Please do not respond without at least looking at the "Too Long, Didn't Read".

I'm still trying to do lots of stuff: reading through E6, contemplating some various fixes to make Spell Casters a reasonable set of foes, and even looking through Psionics (and possibly Incarnum), as well as trying to play in 7 games and still maintain a professional, social, and educational life.

So I'ma be off topic from my normal threads and ask a random question!

I got into a conversation with a friend of mine over a bit of crunch vs fluff (I swear if someone mentions Stormwind I'm going to take a drink, so please don't give me alcohol poisoning). Specifically, Charisma's importance in terms of physical appearance. The details are largely irrelevant, unless we want to bring ina lot of rage.

However, it did give me an idea to ask about. TL, DR here.

How many monsters (and there are probably plenty, knowing D&D) were made to be physically appealing but were not given much Charisma?

And how many monsters were made to be monsterous monsters, despite having a good Charisma score?

[Flickerdart]

Illithids are incredibly nasty if you read their descriptions (like, constantly dripping saliva nasty) but have a big fat Charisma score regardless.

[SleepyShadow]

Charisma has nothing to do with looks. It's about the creature's sense of self and ability to influence others.

That said, almost all of the demons and devils have high charisma scores yet appear quite ugly. Dragons likely aren't 'pretty' by human standards, but they are certainly majestic and that would be enough to justify their high charisma even without their super-inflated egos.

[Hazuki]

Charisma has nothing to do with looks. It's about the creature's sense of self and ability to influence others.
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.As the other person in the original discussion, I'd just like to point out that this line is where it comes from, and why we wanted to see what monster examples there are that differ from the description of the ability.

[Urpriest]

Wolverines are possibly an example, depending on how majestic you find them.

[Psyren]

25 Cha:

http://images.wikia.com/forgottenrealms/images/6/64/Phaerimm.jpg

Any questions?

[Serpentine]

Charisma has nothing to do with looks. It's about the creature's sense of self and ability to influence others.Charisma can have some or a lot to do with Charisma. But it doesn't have to.
Moreover, real-world studies have shown that people tend to perceive beautiful people as nicer, friendlier, more intelligent and so on than plain people, and beautiful people are treated better, given more of the benefit of the doubt, tend to be more liked, get listened to more, and even get things like better pay, and so on. All of which, I think, feels pretty much exactly in line with what you'd expect from someone with high Charisma.
But that certainly doesn't mean Charisma is all about looks, not by a long shot. Basically, I think "Charisma has nothing to do with looks" is exactly as incorrect as "Charisma is all about looks".

The Couatl only has a 17 Charisma, when they're generally described as absolutely beautiful. However, I have yet to see a single decent picture of a Couatl in D&D materials, so maybe they're all just a bit plain :/

[SleepyShadow]

25 Cha:

http://images.wikia.com/forgottenrealms/images/6/64/Phaerimm.jpg

Any questions?

THAT has a 25 Charisma?

:smalleek:

Sexy

:smallcool:

[Doorhandle]

It's an evil flower, so it makes sense.

Evil is sexy, and bitches love flowers.

[MukkTB]

Sometimes fluff ties charisma to looks. But charisma isn't really supposed to be tied to appearance. Look at Zykon. Huge charisma but the only one interested is the crazy necrophiliac. Charisma is supposed to be strength of personality.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Sometimes fluff ties charisma to looks. But charisma isn't really supposed to be tied to appearance. Look at Zykon. Huge charisma but the only one interested is the crazy necrophiliac. Charisma is supposed to be strength of personality.

Xykon.....

[Urpriest]

I'm having some trouble finding examples of monsters that are beautiful but have low Charisma though. Offhand all I can think of is Zombies: while they have Cha 1, an early enough Gentle Repose will preserve their original looks, which might be quite beautiful.

[LeshLush]

Angel of Decay has a high charisma, yet is in the top tier of most disgusting D&D monsters. As far as beautiful yet uncharismatic, best thing I can come up with is the Monster Manual listing for Elf, which has CHA 8. If you consider the standard elf to be beautiful.

[Serpentine]

I'ma just leave my thingy-whatsit here again:

Charisma
Sense of self
Self-worth
Self-confidence
Self-respect
Physical appearance
Grooming
Build
Posture
How one holds oneself
How one presents oneself
Likeability
Ability to read others
Empathy
Ability to relate to others
Communication skills
General social skills
Ability to manipulate others
Ability to convince others
Strength of presence
Strength of personality
Ability to read and act correctly upon social cues
Knowledge of unwritten social rules

Wisdom
Keenness of senses
Awareness of surroundings
Instincts
Self-awareness
Proprioception and comprehension of "self" as distinct from "other"
Empathy
Common sense
Hunches
Intuition
Strength of mind
Understanding
Innate talent
Prudence
Sense of self-preservation

Intelligence
Logic
Reasoning
Planning
Ability to learn
Problem-solving
Abstract thought
Articulated...ness
Tactical and strategic ability
Clarity of thought
Memory
Processing of information
Retention of knowledge

In case someone hasn't seen this before, this is a list of everything I could think of for the sort of things that these abilities can be representing. Not MUST represent, and a particular character's ability score may only represent a few of these. But it's my attempt to give an idea of the wide variety of factors that can go into an ability score.
To give my usual example, my elf/succubus' Charisma of ~14 represented an averaging out of her heartbreakingly beautiful appearance and self-confident demeanor and general easy-to-get-along-withedness when she's "good", and her PTSD, unpredictability, general mental and emotional issues, and tendency to snap and lash out. If Charisma were all about appearance, she'd have an 18 Cha easily. If it were only strength of personality, she'd probably be doing well to touch 10.

Anyway, this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231953) has some relevance here.

[LikeAD6]

Angel of Decay has a high charisma, yet is in the top tier of most disgusting D&D monsters. As far as beautiful yet uncharismatic, best thing I can come up with is the Monster Manual listing for Elf, which has CHA 8. If you consider the standard elf to be beautiful.
Elves are pretty but socially awkward.

[Flickerdart]

Elves are pretty but socially awkward.
Mialee. 'nuff said.

[GoatBoy]

Atropal scions (Libris Mortis) are literally undead fetuses, and boast a charisma of 20. Grimweirds (MM 3) also boast a charisma of 20, and their text specifically states that they "are some of the most charismatic beings in existence."

One of the more attractive pieces of prestige class artwork would be, in my opinion, the shadowmind in Complete Adventurer... a lovely blonde with a charisma of... eight. Then again, character art, especially females, seldom takes any liberties with how attractive the average character is in the D&D universe.

Axiomatic creatures (Manual of the Planes) are described as perfectly formed versions of existing creatures, but they don't get a charisma bonus.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Mialee. 'nuff said.

You mean the androgynous-looking male elf that crossdresses? >_>

Because seriously, Mialee can't even be explained as flat-chested without willing suspension of disbelief.

[Calanon]

Xykon.....

I think they did that one purpose... If you make a really epic listen check you can hear Xykon yelling off in the distance

Listen check 9001 to open this spoiler :smalltongue:
"ITS XYKON!!!!"

Anyway, the good argument would be to examine a Lich Sorcerer.
The Lich is often described as the most repulsive abomination of life ever created ever, But Lichdom raises Charisma. If Charisma was based on appearance the Lich template would decrease Charisma (and in some legends Wisdom as well) but it does not, Why is this? Because sometimes power can be infinitely more attractive then sheer beauty.

[ericgrau]

This all seems to be going towards the idea that looks are a contributing factor but not the only factor.

[Telonius]

"Pretty" (or at least not repulsive), with (relatively) low charisma: Cloud Giants. Charisma is "only" 13, but at 17 hitdice I'm pretty sure that's on the low side.

Another candidate: anything with a low charisma and a Disguise or Alter Self ability. Annis (Cha 10), for instance, "commonly uses its disguise self ability to take the form of ... a fair giant."

Merfolk are generally considered pretty, but their charisma is average (10).

Cute Kitten? Charisma of 7. Cute Puppy? Charisma of 6.

[erikun]

Telonius has a good point.
For example, Charisma: 7
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/images/no-bonsai-kitten.jpg

Charisma: 42
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44165_C5_atropal.jpg

[Steward]

You were wise to spoiler that last image.

That is one of the least physically attractive creatures in the Epic Level Handbook, and it's possible that the sheer horror of its form is what makes it charismatic. I have a hard time believing that anything like that could walk (float?) into a room and fail to instantly draw the gaze of every living being inside. Sometimes "attractive" just means "attracts attention".

[Calanon]

{{scrubbed}}

[Talentless]

{{scrubbed}}

I would hope that you are sarcastic in that first statement, perhaps some blue text might help? if not... OH GOD! PASS THE BRAIN BLEACH NOW!!

back onto the topic at hand,
http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/images/46848/Shalelu.jpg

Not particularly to my taste in looks, but I have some friends who have described said face as "pretty damn hot".

For reference, that is a close up on the face of Pathfinder's Shalelu Andosana. Who, according to the stats, has a CHA score of 8.

Make of that as you will.

[Elric VIII]

Charisma: 42
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44165_C5_atropal.jpg

Awwww, baby's first zombie apocalypse.



Just to give the idea of Cha != beauty a literary backing:
Tyrion Lannister: Ugly little thing that diplomaces like a champ.
Iago (from Othello): Is represented as being less physically attractive than Cassio, but is more persuasive/manipulative (diplomacy/bluff).

[2xMachina]

I would hope that you are sarcastic in that first statement, perhaps some blue text might help? if not... OH GOD! PASS THE BRAIN BLEACH NOW!!

back onto the topic at hand,
http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/images/46848/Shalelu.jpg

Not particularly to my taste in looks, but I have some friends who have described said face as "pretty damn hot".

For reference, that is a close up on the face of Pathfinder's Shalelu Andosana. Who, according to the stats, has a CHA score of 8.

Make of that as you will.

... Her ears are longer than her face...

[Totally Guy]

There is correlation but not causation.

[gkathellar]

... Her ears are longer than her face...

I'm not seeing a problem.

[Calanon]

... Her ears are longer than her face...

Your ears are bigger then your eyes, I'm not seeing your point :smallconfused:

[Xiander]

Your ears are bigger then your eyes, I'm not seeing your point :smallconfused:

Small eyes are sexy?

[Coidzor]

I'm not seeing a problem.

I found them to be rather distracting.

Also, elven. Unlike Mialee. Darn space frog mantises.


Your ears are bigger then your eyes, I'm not seeing your point :smallconfused:

The ears. They are huge. That's entirely the point of the overtly stated part of the post.

The implied component is that this is distracting, unattractive, or something else untoward

At least, that's my understanding of what he was getting at.

[Keneth]

This is why I support the use of Appearance (App) scores.

[2xMachina]

Resaying it in another way....

Nice face, but I'm not used to Elves with ears that huge.

[Coidzor]

This is why I support the use of Appearance (App) scores.

Then you've just flubbed up point-buys and added yet another non-abysmal roll of the stat dice that people have to get, this time in order to not be so ugly that people just try to burn them on the streets. :smallyuk:

[INoKnowNames]

Finishing up some College Homework, so now I can weigh in!


Illithids are incredibly nasty if you read their descriptions (like, constantly dripping saliva nasty) but have a big fat Charisma score regardless.

... Do I want to know what an Illithid is? Or do I want to know what calibur bullet can be used effectively on it should it come out of someone's nightmare and into the real world?


Charisma has nothing to do with looks. It's about the creature's sense of self and ability to influence others.

Thank God I only said Stormwind and not any outside comment specifically going against requiring Charisma for looks, or else I'd already be drinking...


That said, almost all of the demons and devils have high charisma scores yet appear quite ugly. Dragons likely aren't 'pretty' by human standards, but they are certainly majestic and that would be enough to justify their high charisma even without their super-inflated egos.

You'd think that demons wouldn't be ugly looking (or at least wouldn't willingly appear so) for the sake of tempting people... although then again, Dante's Inferno...

And Dragons are hot. Godzilla's easily got Epic Charisma.


As the other person in the original discussion, I'd just like to point out that this line is where it comes from, and why we wanted to see what monster examples there are that differ from the description of the ability.

General Consensus seems to be that while there isn't a -lot- of Low Charisma : Sexy Looks, there's a lot of High Charisma : KILLITWITHFIRE, and some examples of Average Charisma : Decent Looks.


Wolverines are possibly an example, depending on how majestic you find them.

Am I the only one who wanted to make a joke about Logan? I can't be the only one.


25 Cha:

Yeah, not looking at this thing again.

Any questions?

Several:


Why didn't you spoil that image!?!
Can that thing even speak to tell us that it's suppost to have a forceful personality?
In what way does it have a forceful personality other than forcing me to ensure I don't crap myself in terror?
WHY DIDN'T YOU SPOIL THAT THING!?!



Charisma can have some or a lot to do with Charisma. But it doesn't have to.
Moreover, real-world studies have shown that people tend to perceive beautiful people as nicer, friendlier, more intelligent and so on than plain people, and beautiful people are treated better, given more of the benefit of the doubt, tend to be more liked, get listened to more, and even get things like better pay, and so on. All of which, I think, feels pretty much exactly in line with what you'd expect from someone with high Charisma.
But that certainly doesn't mean Charisma is all about looks, not by a long shot. Basically, I think "Charisma has nothing to do with looks" is exactly as incorrect as "Charisma is all about looks".

~2 Theoretical Drinks.


The Couatl only has a 17 Charisma, when they're generally described as absolutely beautiful. However, I have yet to see a single decent picture of a Couatl in D&D materials, so maybe they're all just a bit plain :/

Lot of decent images of them outside the materials, actually. I feel like the people who write the flavor and draw the flavor work away from eachother...


THAT has a 25 Charisma?

:smalleek:

Sexy

:smallcool:

Honestly, I don't think I'm secure enough in myself to make such a joke.


It's an evil flower, so it makes sense.

Evil is sexy, and bitches love flowers.

While I do agree that evil is indeed sexy, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilIsSexy) I thought (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmallGirlBigGun) bitches loved cannons (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WebOriginal/HellsingAbridged?from=Main.HellsingAbridged).


Sometimes fluff ties charisma to looks. But charisma isn't really supposed to be tied to appearance. Look at Zykon. Huge charisma but the only one interested is the crazy necrophiliac. Charisma is supposed to be strength of personality.

~3 Drinks.


Xykon.....

I see what you did there.


Angel of Decay has a high charisma, yet is in the top tier of most disgusting D&D monsters. As far as beautiful yet uncharismatic, best thing I can come up with is the Monster Manual listing for Elf, which has CHA 8. If you consider the standard elf to be beautiful.

Can't argue with elfs.... also, do I want to know what an Angel of Decay is?


I'ma just leave my thingy-whatsit here again:

Charisma
Sense of self
Self-worth
Self-confidence
Self-respect
Physical appearance
Grooming
Build
Posture
How one holds oneself
How one presents oneself
Likeability
Ability to read others
Empathy
Ability to relate to others
Communication skills
General social skills
Ability to manipulate others
Ability to convince others
Strength of presence
Strength of personality
Ability to read and act correctly upon social cues
Knowledge of unwritten social rules

Wisdom
Keenness of senses
Awareness of surroundings
Instincts
Self-awareness
Proprioception and comprehension of "self" as distinct from "other"
Empathy
Common sense
Hunches
Intuition
Strength of mind
Understanding
Innate talent
Prudence
Sense of self-preservation

Intelligence
Logic
Reasoning
Planning
Ability to learn
Problem-solving
Abstract thought
Articulated...ness
Tactical and strategic ability
Clarity of thought
Memory
Processing of information
Retention of knowledge

In case someone hasn't seen this before, this is a list of everything I could think of for the sort of things that these abilities can be representing. Not MUST represent, and a particular character's ability score may only represent a few of these. But it's my attempt to give an idea of the wide variety of factors that can go into an ability score.

To give my usual example, my elf/succubus' Charisma of ~14 represented an averaging out of her heartbreakingly beautiful appearance and self-confident demeanor and general easy-to-get-along-withedness when she's "good", and her PTSD, unpredictability, general mental and emotional issues, and tendency to snap and lash out. If Charisma were all about appearance, she'd have an 18 Cha easily. If it were only strength of personality, she'd probably be doing well to touch 10.

Anyway, this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231953) has some relevance here.

~4 Drinks. Also, I thought I posted in that thread, too...


Elves are pretty but socially awkward.

I thought Elves were pompus jerks, living in odd tree shacks despite being hunders of years ahead of everyone else in terms of technology...


Mialee. 'nuff said.

Who is Mialee?


Atropal scions (Libris Mortis) are literally undead fetuses, and boast a charisma of 20. Grimweirds (MM 3) also boast a charisma of 20, and their text specifically states that they "are some of the most charismatic beings in existence."

One of the more attractive pieces of prestige class artwork would be, in my opinion, the shadowmind in Complete Adventurer... a lovely blonde with a charisma of... eight. Then again, character art, especially females, seldom takes any liberties with how attractive the average character is in the D&D universe.

Axiomatic creatures (Manual of the Planes) are described as perfectly formed versions of existing creatures, but they don't get a charisma bonus.

I'm scared to look up the Grimweird. And you'd think that Perfectly Formed Creatures get bonuses to all stats... you'd think they'd get 18s in all stats, actually....


You mean the androgynous-looking male elf that crossdresses? >_>

Because seriously, Mialee can't even be explained as flat-chested without willing suspension of disbelief.

Legend of Zelda's Link got stated?


I think they did that one purpose... If you make a really epic listen check you can hear Xykon yelling off in the distance

Listen check 9001 to open this spoiler :smalltongue:
"ITS XYKON!!!!"

Anyway, the good argument would be to examine a Lich Sorcerer.
The Lich is often described as the most repulsive abomination of life ever created ever, But Lichdom raises Charisma. If Charisma was based on appearance the Lich template would decrease Charisma (and in some legends Wisdom as well) but it does not, Why is this? Because sometimes power can be infinitely more attractive then sheer beauty.

~5 Drinks.


I'm having some trouble finding examples of monsters that are beautiful but have low Charisma though. Offhand all I can think of is Zombies: while they have Cha 1, an early enough Gentle Repose will preserve their original looks, which might be quite beautiful.

.... How do you remotely claim to have trouble getting a result when you post probably the highest result possible? A pretty Zombie... that's horrifying and interesting.


This all seems to be going towards the idea that looks are a contributing factor but not the only factor.

Point Taken.


"Pretty" (or at least not repulsive), with (relatively) low charisma: Cloud Giants. Charisma is "only" 13, but at 17 hitdice I'm pretty sure that's on the low side.

Still better than the Elite Array Fighter with an 8 in it.


"Another candidate: anything with a low charisma and a Disguise or Alter Self ability. Annis (Cha 10), for instance, "commonly uses its disguise self ability to take the form of ... a fair giant."

.... No one else thought to make a BBW joke? Am I just a monster?


"Merfolk are generally considered pretty, but their charisma is average (10).

What kind of Merfolk are we dealing with? 'cause the first thing I could of was this (and the bling alone should have more charisma than that):

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Ariel-the-little-mermaid-223083_800_600.jpg


"Cute Kitten? Charisma of 7. Cute Puppy? Charisma of 6.

I honestly thought that kittens had better charisma than that, especially considering how manipulative cats are...


Telonius has a good point.
For example, Charisma: 7
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/images/no-bonsai-kitten.jpg

Charisma: 42
Yeah-NO.

Kitty Kitty Kitty! Help me forget that -thing-!


You were wise to spoiler that last image.

That is one of the least physically attractive creatures in the Epic Level Handbook, and it's possible that the sheer horror of its form is what makes it charismatic. I have a hard time believing that anything like that could walk (float?) into a room and fail to instantly draw the gaze of every living being inside. Sometimes "attractive" just means "attracts attention".

How do things like that even exist? Do evil Wizards produce such horrors? Are they just abominations created by the evil gods? Or are the writers of D&D watching too much Evangelion?


OMG SO SEXY! MUST...RESIST...URGES! *FAPFAPFAPFAPFAPFAPFAP* MMMMMFFFF~!

*Cleans up* Atropal... you sexy beast... :smallwink:

Yeah, I definitely am not secure enough to make that joke. That's a bit much, even for me.


OT: In all seriousness, you picked the ugliest creature in the ELH with the highest Charisma, This further proves that power is indeed sexy :smallamused:Hecatoncheries

What's a Hecatoncheries?


I would hope that you are sarcastic in that first statement, perhaps some blue text might help? if not... OH GOD! PASS THE BRAIN BLEACH NOW!!

I -still- need some Brain Bleach...


back onto the topic at hand,
http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/images/46848/Shalelu.jpg

Not particularly to my taste in looks, but I have some friends who have described said face as "pretty damn hot".

For reference, that is a close up on the face of Pathfinder's Shalelu Andosana. Who, according to the stats, has a CHA score of 8.

Make of that as you will.

Not bad looking, at the very least.


There is correlation but not causation.

I've been taught what that means, but I forgot. Can you say that again in laymen's terms?


This is why I support the use of Appearance (App) scores.

.... did you get that out of the book that I think you got that from?

[Yora]

You mean the androgynous-looking male elf that crossdresses? >_>
No that would probably look quite attractive. More the elf whose face got trampled by a horse.

[Calanon]

What's a Hecatoncheries?

http://www.gnomestew.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/9heca.jpg Charisma:24

The Hecatoncheries are the single most bizarre things ever to come out of greek mythology

[Urpriest]

http://www.gnomestew.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/9heca.jpg Charisma:24

The Hecatoncheries are the single most bizarre things ever to come out of greek mythology

You sir have not read enough Greek mythology.

To figure it out, OP, why don't you parse it out: Hecaton is the prefix for hundred, cheires is arms. A Hecatoncheires has a hundred pairs of arms and a hundred heads. They were brothers to the Cyclopses.

Also, Atropals are what happens when gods have abortions. True story.

[gkathellar]

I found them to be rather distracting.

Eh. [horrible]They give you something to hold onto.[/creepy]

[Calanon]

You sir have not read enough Greek mythology.

To figure it out, OP, why don't you parse it out: Hecaton is the prefix for hundred, cheires is arms. A Hecatoncheires has a hundred pairs of arms and a hundred heads. They were brothers to the Cyclopses.

Also, Atropals are what happens when gods have abortions. True story.

I'm scared to ask but what IS the most disturbing thing to have ever crawled out of Greek Mythology? :smallconfused:

[Serpentine]

A lot of the stories involving Zeus getting it on with people would probably be up there.

[INoKnowNames]

A lot of the stories involving Zeus getting it on with people would probably be up there.

Zeus just plain didn't give a ****. Well, actually, he did, but that was kind of the problem.

Basically, if you were married, he didn't care. If you were a virgin, he didn't care. If you were a man or a woman, he didn't care. If you were an animal, he didn't care.

If there's an oriface on you, Zeus will find it. Whether or not you give consent. Whether or not he comes in humanoid or animal form, or even any physical form. Beware the next rain-cloud you drive under.

[RedWarlock]

I don't think Mialee looks that bad, in the original PHB art, when drawn by that artist. It's when other artists tried to pick up that same style and form.. and failed badly..

It helps if you realize they were trying to establish elves as something other in appearance from 'skinny human with pointy ears'.

[Keneth]

Then you've just flubbed up point-buys and added yet another non-abysmal roll of the stat dice that people have to get, this time in order to not be so ugly that people just try to burn them on the streets. :smallyuk: Actually, the way we do this is give the player two choices:

Roll 3d6 for appearance, separate from any point buy or stat rolling system, this can give extremely varied results but that's half the fun. Not every hero gets to be pretty but that's ok because D&D isn't WoW. It also gives characters with low Cha the chance to be good looking (I myself have a character with Cha 5 and App 16).
Every character can opt to have their Appearance score equal 10 + Cha modifier. This makes for a lot of low-to-high average scores but it makes sure the sorcerer with 18 Cha doesn't end up with a fireball-catching face.

No one has ever been unsatisfied with this system and it's a huge help in separating looks from actual charisma (which never made any sense to begin with).


.... did you get that out of the book that I think you got that from?Actually I got it from AD&D, but I didn't think of using it in later editions until I read BoEF. :smallwink:

[Yora]

The ears. They are huge. That's entirely the point of the overtly stated part of the post.
If your ears are larger than your hands, there's something wrong.

[Necroticplague]

Wanna see a 34 charisma creature?
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44190_C5_Hagunemnon.jpg

[TurtleKing]

I...I...I... I don't know.

Part of me wants to make a joke, another wonders should I, another wonders what should the joke be , and another doesn't give a flying ....

[Dusk Eclipse]

Isn't that a protean and this a shapechanger?

[SaintRidley]

For the OP, who dared to question, a pair of Illithids feeding.

http://otaku.lv/uploads/20051007_835_illithid.jpg

[Lapak]

General Consensus seems to be that while there isn't a -lot- of Low Charisma : Sexy Looks, there's a lot of High Charisma : KILLITWITHFIRE, and some examples of Average Charisma : Decent Looks.Which makes perfect sense if it's a score that represents a combination of things on a scale that is open-ended at the top but not at the bottom. You can go up to as high as you need just on (say) Force of Personality alone if it's just that powerful, but you can't drop down to 1 unless ALL the elements that make up Charisma are bad. So it makes sense that there are few 'pretty but low-CHA' creatures: what they are lacking in sense of self or manipulation is balanced out by their looks, so they end up at the medium-low end of the scale or better, rather than rock-bottom. If the scale was open at both ends (negative Charisma?) you could potentially see gorgeous-but-wishy-washy creatures with CHA 1.

[Dayzgone]

I honestly thought that kittens had better charisma than that, especially considering how manipulative cats are...

That’s because Cats actually have a constant aura of stupidity around them that gets stronger the closer you are.

http://xkcd.com/231/

[Necroticplague]

Isn't that a protean and thus a shapechanger?

Yes, it does have the shapechanger subtype, but it doesn't naturally have the ability to take on the form of others, instead is simply mashes forms together every round to get something. In fact, by the looks of it, that is a protean with no traits yet, so actual ones are probably an even more hideous mismatch of various features.

[Steward]

... Do I want to know what an Illithid is? Or do I want to know what calibur bullet can be used effectively on it should it come out of someone's nightmare and into the real world?

An Illithid is a Mind Flayer, the monster seen playing scrabble against Elan in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html). In short, it's a mostly humanoid-looking aberration with a squid for a head. Pretty frightening looking. If you're familiar with the stories of Cthulhu, they would fit right in.


I'm scared to look up the Grimweird. And you'd think that Perfectly Formed Creatures get bonuses to all stats... you'd think they'd get 18s in all stats, actually....

Grimweirds look like withered old men with dark blue skin, I think. They're not actually horrific as far as undead go but you wouldn't really think of them as being physically attractive.


Can't argue with elfs.... also, do I want to know what an Angel of Decay is?

I just looked it up for you and... no, you really don't. It can sometimes be hard to tell which kind of undead is the most physically repulsive, but those things are probably in the top ten.

[tyckspoon]

I've been taught what that means, but I forgot. Can you say that again in laymen's terms?


Re: Correlation is not causation:
Correlation, in the sense of this, is two things being found together. To take a popular historical example, maggots are virtually always found on/in/around rotting meat. It is a very popular error in thought to note that 2 things are strongly correlated and then go an unjustified step further and decide that because you so often see the 2 things together, then one must cause the other: rotting meat creates maggots. Or, in this thread's case, high charisma characters are often attractive, (alternately, low charisma characters are often depicted as unattractive), therefore high charisma must be the source of attractiveness/being attractive results in high charisma. Correlated, but they don't have a proven causative relationship.

[Igneel]

Zeus just plain didn't give a ****. Well, actually, he did, but that was kind of the problem.

Basically, if you were married, he didn't care. If you were a virgin, he didn't care. If you were a man or a woman, he didn't care. If you were an animal, he didn't care.

If there's an oriface on you, Zeus will find it. Whether or not you give consent. Whether or not he comes in humanoid or animal form, or even any physical form. Beware the next rain-cloud you drive under.

Basically he was a uber-Dragon in DnD. :smallbiggrin: No in all seriousness, Greeks were and still are quite sex driven. Especially after drinking enough wine. :smalltongue:

Another one I think is interesting are the Kaorti (Fiend Folio) "template". I quotation marked the template part because it doesn't outright say that its a template applicable to humanoids except in the Transformation text. But apparently, anyone bitten by one of these guys for 8 hours have a chance of becoming one of them. Did I mention this is the only way the procreate? After becoming one you get -4 Str, +4 Dex/Int, and +6 Cha for basically a +2 LA.

Their favorite hobbies includes spreading the influence of Far Realms by disturbing the natural world, biting people to make more Kaorti, and oozing amber-like goo from their palms.

Warning!: Kaotri Image
http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/dndsow/npcs/9f313d77f60ddd388277fdf991408086.jpg?v=241800


Can't argue with elfs.... also, do I want to know what an Angel of Decay is?

Supposedly beings that bring about decay and rot, then pummel anyone or thing that doesn't die from rotting inside out or turned to dust as fast as it would like. Nothing angelic about it.

Warning!: Angel of Decay Image
http://images.wikia.com/forgottenrealms/images/2/25/Angel_of_Decay_-_Jeremy_Jarvis.jpg

[panaikhan]

2e skills and powers did some pretty strange things with ability scores.
One was to split them into sub-scores, with a maximum of 4 between them.
So, if you had a Charisma of 14, you could theoretically have an Apperarance of 16, and a Leadership of 12 . I'm sure non-PC races could have even greater 'difference' between the two.