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Welknair
2012-02-26, 07:33 PM
Fourthland
A Game of Abstraction

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8159/7348135994_36ea65bb2b_b.jpg

Fourthland is the game that I've now been working on for some months, and it is bearing more fruit than any of my previous attempts. It has gone much further than I thought it would, and I hope to see it become a full-fledged Tabletop RPG, one you can buy and hold a copy of in your hand. We're still a ways from that goal, but it is in sight.

What IS Fourthland, you ask? It is a game of abstraction. Imagine a world where everything you knew was wrong. Where the fundamental aspects of reality were different. A world of creativity, ingenuity, and alien-ness. In this strange, bizarre world your preconceptions of reality will likely not suffice. You will need to learn. To think in new, and novel ways. This is NOT a game for the unimaginative. It is a game of glorious innovation, a game of teamwork, of ideals, of thoughts and beliefs.

Due to me wanting to actually produce this game, I am limited in what I can say about it. I have said a few things openly, so I'll post them here for anyone taking a look for the first time:

1. The world is centered around 12 "Energies" that define most of reality. Character stats are the first 8.

2. There are things kind of like classes, called "Shapes". There are three tiers of these, and they are independent of one another. "Combinatory Characters" is one of the features my game espouses. Any combination of Shapes should be a viable character.

3. Play starts with all players having blank character sheets. As they play through the beginning of the game, they gain the defining features of their character. This is what I call "Progressive Start". Players don't need to do any preparation before the game. No hours of character-building. Just straight on to the fun!

4. The rules are divided into discrete "Stages", increasing in complexity in each stage. This allows new groups to not be immediately overwhelmed by how profoundly weird Fourthland is. Once a group has progressed through all the stages, later games can start at the last stage (Utilizing the entire body of rules). The first stage involves solely the first four energies, as well as a bit of interesting lore about the world.

5. "Shape does not confer function". Functions are attributes attached to the being of an object, not its physical shape. This means that you could make something that looks like a sword, but unless it has the intrinsic property of a sword, it does not function as one.

6. Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, Tock, Tock, Tock, Tock, Click, Click, Click, Click, Clack, Clack, Clack, Clack, Arc, Arc, Arc, Arc, Circle, Circle, Circle, Circle, Cycle, Cycle, Cycle, Cycle, Grand Cycle, Grand Cycle, Grand Cycle, Grand Cycle, Father, Father, Father, Father, Mother, Mother, Mother, Mother.... Tick

7. There seems to be some recurring theme about the numbers 2, 4, 6, and 8?

8. For example, I needed 8 facts about the game.

I frequently post my musings and progress in this thread, so if you're interested, do follow! Don't be afraid to post either! Responses on this thread help ensure that others hear of it. Plus the people that hang out here are generally pretty awesome.

Quotes of Importance/Humor:

Because they deserve to be out of the spoiler:

You know, most games claim to challenge what you think is true, but they don't. See, when you look at fourth land, you can't assume anything. Gravity? Please, that got thrown out in minutes. Time? Linear chronology is for wimps. Liquids? Seriously, I said no assumptions! Life? Nope, not even that.

So what's the game about, then? It's a game about anything. Literally, anything: you can make a pie of swordness to slash the inside of your enemies' mouths. You can parkour your way to the sun, blast people with the raw energy of time, structure, or gravity. It's a land of ultimates, extremes, and originality. Because nothing will ever be the same.

Fourthland, the game of Abstractions.


"Welknair's Thread: Side effects may include: Immediate loss of SAN, questions regarding our fundamental assumptions of the world around us, perpetual motion, blackholes, paradoxes, ponies, food-ified objects, piercing boulders, bludgeoning spears, and time clones. Consult your doctor if you feel that any of these may be a problem, or if any portion of your body has been chronofragged."


In other news, I just imagined a yellow jellyfish with an interpretative dance cutie mark speaking -no, flapping?- in a sad southern accent. Don't ask me how that works.

Fourthland is freakin epic.

Fourthland: The game where a 5 degree difference in how you hold up your ganglia changes the definition from "mother" to "monster"...


That.. Wow. I. Huh.

I've been doing a lot of work on my game recently. A lot. I've been telling my normal group bits and pieces between our GURPS games. I've told them about the story, about the world. I finally have enough done to do a trial run. Just to test out basic mechanics, you know. To make sure I hadn't made some major mistake, had some fatal oversight.

I did.

My world, my game, that I had prided myself on being "Simple" was too complicated for them. These are the people that make skyship designs with my magitech system. They didn't understand the ideas I was throwing at them.

My oversight? My design goal was to make a game unlike any other, to make something entirely unique. My short-coming? I succeeded. I hadn't even thought of the POSSIBILITY that the drastic alien-ness of my game would confuse my players to the point where they couldn't comprehend it.

My players are pretty smart, smarter than the average one, I'd like to say. The fact that my game is incomprehensible to them does not bode well.



I need to change some things. A lot of things. This was a bit of a reality check for me. I haven't been doing near as well as I thought I had. I made something TOO different, TOO novel. And they just didn't get it.

Wow. That's the first time I've ever walked out on a game.


... I complain about a bad test, and people's response is to be intensely curious? :smallconfused:


Now that I've calmed down a bit, I think I overreacted. I did a second test and things went a bit better. It's important to ease players into it instead of expecting to understand an entirely new universe immediately.


Well, I'll see what I can say without giving too much away or angering the gods of copyright (I wonder if I can just copyright the idea already so I can be more open? I need to work that stuff out).

I made an entirely new universe, if you hadn't already figured that bit out. What's a "Human"? What's a "Molecule"? Gravity? Sound? Life? Death? Time?

I made my own. I rewrote EVERYTHING. I have 12 elementary energy types that define the world, inspired a little by Exalted Elemental Essence - That's actually a good story, and one I can say to help you understand without telling exactly how my stuff works.

We were arguing about a character from Keychain of Creation (The Exalted version of OotS), an Abyssal girl by the name of Secret. Abyssals don't age physically. I argued that this made no sense, since they healed over time. Healing involves the replication of cells, shortening telomeres. It is this shortening of telomeres that causes aging. I was met by something along the lines of "What is a Cell?" I was baffled. The utter refutation of everything I knew about the world... They instead explained to me that everyone was made of a combination of Wood and Earth Essence, the first giving life and the second structure. You die when your Wood runs out. This was the basics of the Energy system for Fourthland. I number my twelve energies, 1st through 12th. Guess which one causes life? Fourth. Then I have ones that cause Gravity, Light, Heat, Movement, and so on.

Player Stats? Energy scores. This is the center of my game. It is alien and weird. Yet at the same time, to me at least, it is quite beautiful. To be able to build an entire universe from so few elements is amazing. It has a complex simplicity about it, and a simple complexity.

Another interesting thing about my game: "Progressive Start". You hand blank character sheets to players, and the game has started. Right then and there. The DM/GM/Muse describes the scene, and then Players get their first bit of Fourth (XP). They continue to as the game goes on, though the rate slows down. Later, they get most of it from overcoming challenges. The point though, is that you don't wait an hour and a half to make character sheets first. It's done through the gameplay.

Yet another: Combinatory Characters. I'm making a bunch of class-y things that I don't think I can talk too much about, but you get three of them. Any combination should be valid. In this way, I can create massive numbers of potential characters off of relatively few templates. And it's an exponential growth.


Does that do it for you? My copyright-friend says he'll help me through the process this coming weekend and I should be able to say a lot more.


I. Wow. I just realized something involving the time thing. Oooooooh. *Laughs evilly* I was trying to figure out why people wouldn't want to always be carrying around super-speed stones with them. Then I figured it out. Yeah, that'll do. That'll do.

A bit of background for the next one: I have a very crazy player. He tends to abuse physics. The playtest group from this thread has issued him an official challenge, starting with the following post.

Ok, then.

I'll take him as a challenge.

WHO CAN BE MORE ABUSIVE.

Tell him he's on.


Dude, I'm already designing a method of omniscience. I know little of the rules and I'm already on the verge of Omniscifer level tricks.
I also have an idea for a gun that chronofrags people.



Why make a chronofrag gun when you can have a grenade that causes the animating principle to fall out of your enemy's body?

(Alter how gravity, Fourth, and structural elements interact; fun times occur.)


It kinda says something about our culture that the first reaction to a new system of rules is using to to make things explode in previously impossible ways.


Is it wrong that I've already developed methods of teleportation, perpetual motion and cold fusion?


Ah. Missed the no molecules. Teleportation was easy. It just followed a logical chain of manipulating space-time through matter/gravity manipulation. Technically, it's not so much teleportation as it is moving the entire universe so that object ends up where you want it. Though you can also move the object itself.

It's just more fun the first way.


So I can't force the Fourth and the Seventh in someone's body to interact, thus making the Fourth... fall out?

Also, does the Law of Conservation of Energy still exist in this universe; otherwise, there are evil, evil, EVIL things we can do.

But yeah, since I only know of 3 component Energies (Fourth (Lifeforce), Seventh (Gravity), and Eleventh (Time) (I assigned those numbers at random; I'll get the terminology correct once I have my toolbox.)), I can already pull of cryogenics, if necessary (Remove Eleventh from the area; therefor, they just go through time as slow as hell), and I'm pretty sure I can pull off Crack the Sky (Exalted charm where you toss someone miles, for massive amounts of pain; you can do it through pure manipulation of Seventh, especially if there are any ways to lock someone's ability to change their gravitational direction. This is a party trick, by the way.)

Oh, and I'll also need to know if any of Newton's Laws still exist in game, and how "strongly" they apply.

Also, just for ****s and giggles, if we can figure out a method of converting energies into other energies, I totally have a method to duplicate the Event Horizon of a black hole (convert 11th into 7th).

I can pull of practically instantaneous travel (Welknair gave some hints about how you can potentially affect a part of an object; just move the 11th from every creature inside to the "ship" they are sitting in, and have some sort of AI (Eh, just fill it with 4th, that should do it) move the ship; the people riding barely experience any time passing, while the ship is moving hella fast.)

Oh, before I forget... is Distance an energy?


Welknair, I hope you're proud of yourself. You're about to unleash several madmen with plans of world discombobulation and maybe the power to do it onto an innocent setting.


An untouched setting even!

After the play test I think you can consider it roughed up. I just hope I survive with all my mental faculties. :smallsigh:


You... are much too kind to us.

Seriously, what did we do to deserve this kinda windfall?

If we can set up a moving field, progressive-speed FTL travel is in our grasp! (Very simple; lock the back end of a Time-and-Space Dilatory Field to the back of your "ship". Fly it wherever you want.)

Also, there is miniaturization, which, due to a lack of atomization, means we can scale things infinitely! (Or practically so...)


You know this is going to end in fire and oblivion, right? Isn't it obvious? Elemental pokemon!


I had very low attendance this weekend (Just my crazy-player, and one of my less-crazy ones), so we ended up playing Fourthland the first time. We tested out some of the class-things and they seem to work pretty well. I need to change some mechanics involving how physical matter is dealt with, but things are shaping up nicely.

Using my funky physics, I set up a really peculiar world. the world is an inverted sphere, with everything along the inside. Gravity is conferred by a thin layer of 11th-charged material far inside the ground. In the middle of this sphere is a large, opaque sphere. Between the sphere and the ground above/below orbits another sphere, this one possessing gargantuan quantities of 9th (Light). When it passes behind the opaque sphere, an area of the world is covered in shadow (Night).

My players (especially the crazy one) immediately jumped to a number of ideas:

1. Dig down to the "Bedrock level" to harvest all the gravity-conveying material. Because trololol.

2. Make towers that extend to the limit of the gravitational pull of the ground (There is a limit, so the middle area is largely without gravity) and then jump from one tower to another. Or tie ropes from the towers and pull yourself along.

3. Parkour onto the sun. Long story.

4. Colonize the center orb.

5. Calibrate a jump such that the apex is right where the gravitational pull ends. Possibly leave a leg inside the pull, then pull up when you're at zero momentum. Float there. Possibly have a buddy give you a gentle push. Snipe at will.

6. Use 11th to make tiny gravity-stones and try too dislodge the sun from its orbit.

7. "How large is the sun?" Steal the sun.

8. "We have a moon too, right?" Steal the moon.


....

WHAT HAVE I MADE??

RANDOM UPDATES:

1. We did not play Fourthland this weekend. We started Grimtooth's Dungeon of Doom, though. I think the total death count was in the 30s.

2. I am doing more research into the business requirement of Kickstarters. I have submitted a help request on the topic.

3. My copyright-friend has talked me out of Preregistering, given that it doesn't actually do much and it has such a large cost. The new plan is to publish and copyright the first draft in increments, going through the process for each separately. In the long run, this will likely be cheaper.

4. I plan to claim that domain very soon. I've dabbled in web design and know some people that do it for a living. I'll likely set up my own forums there, though they won't be terribly active for a while still.

5. Sending a PM to Roland about whether or not I can post a link to a Kickstarter here.

Here it is, word for word:


6. More work on game-phsyics, primarily how weight, breaking, and supports work.

7. Consideration about one of my original design goals that I forgot to mention, and one that is VERY RELEVANT given the section of this thread: "Homebrew-ability". The property of a game that allows homebrew to be created for it. I want my game to very much encourage homebrew, and I've seen many games that do and don't do so. For example, D&D 3.5e is obviously quite homebrew-able. 4e, not so much (Though Surrealistik does make some decent stuff). This is because it is more difficult to create classes, which were always the most popular topic of homebrew. Exalted is another example of something that's difficult to homebrew for. What're you going to make? You can make side-charms, or martial arts styles, but that's about it.

In my game, you'll be able to (And encouraged to, if you have the capacity) homebrew the falling, among others: Shapes (Class-things. I expect tons of these.), Alchemies and Masteries (*Sinister Laughter*), Creatures (Why of course!), Materials, and finally Energies (That's right. You can add your own.),


Add my own?

http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/me-gusta-me-gusta-l.png


I am imagining entire galaxies burning right now. Welknair, I hope you realize what you've done. :smallcool:


I don't think he could.

Especially not after I messed with his 13th orientations, Intent.

WHICH IS SO MINE. I claim Intent (think emotion/purpose/consciousness?) as my personal Energy.


Dibs on Good/Heroism/Protaganistic energy. The power of how important something is, plot-wise. Or Hat energy, that would be cool...


Guys, you are thinking in far too prosaic a way, my friends.

I call dibs on the 14th, Narrative Inertia.

And on the 15th, Flavor, because seriously, being able to make the sun taste like cherries is win.


Bah, 16th is best. Motivation. :smallamused:


What about Laughter, Kindness, Generosity, Honesty, Loyalty, Magic...
I have a great and terrible Idea...
http://images.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw4826-1336252812982990.jpg


Of course! Back to the fun stuff!

You guys know the suggestion a while ago about being embodying the energies? Well I did a bit of work on how they operate.

Also, I have been struggling with how romantic relationships operate within Fourthland, given that my previous solution to deaths and reproduction kind of made them unecessary. Well, I found a way to work romantic-potential in. And then I kept going, like I tend to. I think I may have accidentally created a lifecycle system more complicated than that of the Trolls.


My brain is sputtering trying to deal with how awesome/hilarious this is. So many ideas come to mind.

Sword of +3 Swordness
Amulet of Sworditude
Disciple of Swordosity
Elemental plane of Sword

Fighter would be so happy.


Interesting thoughts.
Armour-ness on a hair pin (because a hair pin that stops arrows in hilarious.
Club-ness on a sword (for bludgeoning someone to death with the edge of a sword).
Tent-ness on a pen (1d4 SAN damage.)
This is wonderful.


You know what? Let's go a step further.

You do not craft objects; instead, you craft Functions, which are then imbued at some later point. You can only Imbue a given Function once, and then the object will always have that function.

You can later remove a Function from an object.

I'm waiting for Tool-ness, so I can Imbue it in my fists (fixin' things like the fonz! Yeah!); or, more esoterically, Food-ness on a stick (hey, when you can make anything edible...), Window-ness on a wall (you can see through it.)

Hell, by reducing items down to Function, you can really be an artist... and your canvas could be your body.

Another idea... who needs tools to craft a metaphor or function? You could totally make a Shape based around rapid crafting by simply mixing and melding Function Components. And then maybe, eventually, refining a Function to the point that you can just use the Energy and ignore the actual Form. So you could chop someone in half with the very concept of Swordness, or nail up a wall with literally nothing more than a whim.

The funny thing is that this kinda crafting makes a crapton of sense to anyone who has ever looked at how Diablo made its random items, but with the random stuff you get being stuff you can use that item for, rather than adding fire or ice or whatever.

And you do realize that, the more we talk about this, this is the game I've been dreaming of?

And Progressive Disclosure is such a wonderful idea... it's the kinda thing I wish that DnD was designed to work with.
<hr>
Sorry for a light hi-jack, but I have an idea for something to do while we are waiting for Welknair to complete the copyright process...

I'm currently working on a quick PoS combining Risus and Nomic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic). Anyone want to use it to get in the mood?


I think we're all overlooking something central to our existence. Bearness. Yes, now we too can have +1 Swords of Bearness, Fists of Bearness, and dare I say, Beards of Bearness.


Actually owls are not technically wiser than any other creature. Welkanair, having a high IQ (as do most people on this form), would presumably know this.

Thus, we can clearly not choose the option in front of him. But, we also know that he's adept a tropes, since he can break them so well: thus, he could be pandering to the "owls are wise" idea from the start, and can clearly not choose the option near to us.

But, of course, we know this game IS about breaking expectations, so our expectations of wisdom mean we clearly cannot choose the option in front of him.

What did you say? I just got started!

The first point is true: it might be perception...?


I've spent the last ten years of my life building up a resistance to overused tropes.


...

http://mclean.alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/neutral-feel-like-a-sir-clean-l.png

Ha! But I've won! I switched glasses while you weren't looking, and the glass with overused tropes is clearly in front of you!

Innertia-less fields, of course. Most people don't bother keeping their hands on the propulsion controls, and an area of space where that glide just stops... They wouldn't get whiplash, but we would need some way to get rid of the extra energy... I suggest transmuting it into heat.

In other words, they rocket at you and incinerate themselves. Alternatively, a thin film of reversed inertia would cause them to crash into themselves, which would hurt. A lot.


Confetti infused with "sharpness". They fly right in and get torn to shreds. :smallbiggrin:


Does... does this mean I can come out of the shadows? I... I brought a swordness pie.


... If you don't mind, I'm not going to eat any of the buffet. Why? Because no-one brought foodness.

Except for me and my foodness laser.


...how long has it been?

Today, in Welknair's thread, I've had reason to think of eating Final Fantasy elemental crystals and actually be nourished by them.

Of course, the thread also makes me think of the Lost Boys Banquet. ...I was forced to watch Hook once.


"Welknair's Thread: Side effects may include: Immediate loss of SAN, questions regarding our fundamental assumptions of the world around us, perpetual motion, blackholes, paradoxes, ponies, food-ified objects, piercing boulders, bludgeoning spears, and time clones. Consult your doctor if you feel that any of these may be a problem, or if any portion of your body has been chronofragged."

Edit: A NOTE TO ANY AND ALL LURKERS: We'd very much like to hear your opinions about what's going on on this thread! Don't be afraid to make a post!

We will all be barely hyperintelligent jellyfish made of pure whimsy, floating upon a black rainbow, dyed yellow by the suffusion of knowledge flowing through our pseudopods.

We also won't have any mouths. So all communication will be through sign language.

All of it. Literally. Including how we communicate to each other IRL.


...I can't tell if that's poetry or madness, probably both.


It's the poetry OF madness. And it is beautiful.


Related To Amechra:

Player One: My character tries to communicate with it!

GameMaster: How?

Player One: Um... Interpretive Dance?


How dare you diss my special talent?

In other news, I just imagined a yellow jellyfish with an interpretative dance cutie mark speaking -no, flapping?- in a sad southern accent. Don't ask me how that works.

Fourthland is freakin epic.


Fourthland: The game where a 5 degree difference in how you hold up your ganglia changes the definition from "mother" to "monster"...



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Original OP:
For those curious, I am still alive and well, and I'm still working diligently. I have recently had a wonderful slew of ideas for a game called "Fourth Land" which incorporates the main ideas I've been striving to work into my previous WIP-games. Out of all the ideas I've had, this seems like it is by far the best, most unique, and most likely to fulfill the criteria I wish to fulfill.
Bonds that hold, bonds that break, bonds that only few do make.
Bonds that kill, bonds that save, bonds that cause some to be brave.
I am hesitant to disclose too much as I hope to one day publish this game, and the way things are going, this may be a possibility. Suffice it to say, the game does something I talked about sometime ago - It embraces the abstraction inherent in games. It drops the pretense of trying to simulate reality, because that's not what I want to do. By escaping from the framework of the real world, I can avoid such unpleasant things as grappling rules. As a result, I am free to make an entirely new universe with its own laws of physics . And that is exactly what I have done. I've spoken with my friends and players and they loved the bits that I told them.
In the twists of time, follow your friends. Form a Bond, or you shall meet your ends.
So from time to time I may make a post in this thread, just making sure that everyone knows that I'm still alive and still designing. Just on my own terms now.
Some will live, some may die, but never will you say goodbye.
And of course, anyone and everyone is free to use the homebrew that I have created. That's what it's there for.
One cannot fall without a second, and a second without a third.
Edit: And if I decide that it'd be okay, I may disclose some more details about the game. But, as I said before, I hope to publish it. Copyright law doesn't like posting ideas online before copyrighting them.
Only together may death be deferred.
Edit2: I will also endeavor to check this thread at least once a week, in case anyone wants to get a hold of me or talk to me for any reason.

Welknair
2012-03-19, 08:43 PM
That's right, this is still a thing. A thing I've been devoting a deal of time to and is coming along nicely. I believe I've determined the basics of character structure and creation as well as the basics of how my wacked out world works. Basics of stats, rolling, and combat done as well. I even found a way to solve both my resurrection and reproduction problems at the same time! It's shaping up quite nicely, if I do say so myself.


I realize that this isn't the type of thing that usually goes here. There's no material for people to look at, enjoy, and critique. Still, I feel obligated to share with everyone what I'm currently working on and let you know that I have something big in the works.

'Till later.

SamBurke
2012-03-23, 03:40 PM
A fourth-wall game?

ME.

GUSTA.

Welknair
2012-03-23, 10:11 PM
A fourth-wall game?

ME.

GUSTA.

Finished the introduction/creation story, ironed out the way character development works, and am now starting on the class-equivalent-thingies.

SamBurke
2012-03-27, 11:45 AM
So how do we keep up with updates and such? (already subbed, btw).

Welknair
2012-03-27, 10:28 PM
So how do we keep up with updates and such? (already subbed, btw).

Well I will be posting occasional updates here like I have been, and being subbed should give you notifications when I add such an update. I'm going to talk to my copyright-savvy friend about what I could post here as teaser material safely.

Welknair
2012-03-29, 09:49 AM
I'd like to make sure that everyone knows that all information, ideas, and statistics that are now or will ever be posted in this thread by me are my intellectual property which I wish to eventually publish. My copyright savvy friend has said that saying that, I can give a snippet or two of my worldbuilding.

The end of the creation story/intro:

//October 17, 2242 AD, 8:25pm

//I feel it correct that now, after all this time, that I look and comment.
//I never believed our little basement project would become this.
//0 was more like me than I had ever thought possible.
//The world he created is the world I wished created.
//It is what we set out to make.
//A world of heroism, adventure, idealism, creativity and intelligence.
//My world.
//Our world.
//Their time is different than ours. I now have a glimmer of understanding into what 0 said.
//I, with my new viewing engine, can view the entire history of this world.
//All of it.
//And it has no end.
//The computations for the furthest reach of their timeline stretches beyond what could have been achieved in the time since its beginning.
//I have no idea how this is possible.
//Perhaps the world is itself no longer just a simulation.
//Perhaps it is a true universe unto itself.
//I am but a passive viewer, watching the eternities scroll past.
//I haven't even seen the first turning of the True Cycle.
//I wish to, before I die.
//0 now orbits this world like a great sun, giving life to all.
//He seems to have accumulated Fourth during his life, much more than the little bit we first gave him.
//I still don't understand that stuff.
//I doubt I ever will.
//So for now, I will wait.
//And watch.


-End Log-


That whole thing is something like 8 pages long, and explains quite a deal. I'm now feeling more confident about my stastical framework, and I'm moving on to actual character design. Feeling good about this world/game of mine.

Welknair
2012-04-14, 05:59 PM
That.. Wow. I. Huh.

I've been doing a lot of work on my game recently. A lot. I've been telling my normal group bits and pieces between our GURPS games. I've told them about the story, about the world. I finally have enough done to do a trial run. Just to test out basic mechanics, you know. To make sure I hadn't made some major mistake, had some fatal oversight.

I did.

My world, my game, that I had prided myself on being "Simple" was too complicated for them. These are the people that make skyship designs with my magitech system. They didn't understand the ideas I was throwing at them.

My oversight? My design goal was to make a game unlike any other, to make something entirely unique. My short-coming? I succeeded. I hadn't even thought of the POSSIBILITY that the drastic alien-ness of my game would confuse my players to the point where they couldn't comprehend it.

My players are pretty smart, smarter than the average one, I'd like to say. The fact that my game is incomprehensible to them does not bode well.



I need to change some things. A lot of things. This was a bit of a reality check for me. I haven't been doing near as well as I thought I had. I made something TOO different, TOO novel. And they just didn't get it.

Wow. That's the first time I've ever walked out on a game.

SamBurke
2012-04-14, 06:50 PM
Welknair! Y U NO GIVE US MORE INFO?

That sounds fantastically interesting.

jojolagger
2012-04-14, 07:51 PM
I really want more info, just to see if I can understand the game.

Also, I call time.

Welknair
2012-04-14, 08:40 PM
Welknair! Y U NO GIVE US MORE INFO?

That sounds fantastically interesting.


I really want more info, just to see if I can understand the game.

... I complain about a bad test, and people's response is to be intensely curious? :smallconfused:


Now that I've calmed down a bit, I think I overreacted. I did a second test and things went a bit better. It's important to ease players into it instead of expecting to understand an entirely new universe immediately.


Well, I'll see what I can say without giving too much away or angering the gods of copyright (I wonder if I can just copyright the idea already so I can be more open? I need to work that stuff out).

I made an entirely new universe, if you hadn't already figured that bit out. What's a "Human"? What's a "Molecule"? Gravity? Sound? Life? Death? Time?

I made my own. I rewrote EVERYTHING. I have 12 elementary energy types that define the world, inspired a little by Exalted Elemental Essence - That's actually a good story, and one I can say to help you understand without telling exactly how my stuff works.

We were arguing about a character from Keychain of Creation (The Exalted version of OotS), an Abyssal girl by the name of Secret. Abyssals don't age physically. I argued that this made no sense, since they healed over time. Healing involves the replication of cells, shortening telomeres. It is this shortening of telomeres that causes aging. I was met by something along the lines of "What is a Cell?" I was baffled. The utter refutation of everything I knew about the world... They instead explained to me that everyone was made of a combination of Wood and Earth Essence, the first giving life and the second structure. You die when your Wood runs out. This was the basics of the Energy system for Fourthland. I number my twelve energies, 1st through 12th. Guess which one causes life? Fourth. Then I have ones that cause Gravity, Light, Heat, Movement, and so on.

Player Stats? Energy scores. This is the center of my game. It is alien and weird. Yet at the same time, to me at least, it is quite beautiful. To be able to build an entire universe from so few elements is amazing. It has a complex simplicity about it, and a simple complexity.

Another interesting thing about my game: "Progressive Start". You hand blank character sheets to players, and the game has started. Right then and there. The DM/GM/Muse describes the scene, and then Players get their first bit of Fourth (XP). They continue to as the game goes on, though the rate slows down. Later, they get most of it from overcoming challenges. The point though, is that you don't wait an hour and a half to make character sheets first. It's done through the gameplay.

Yet another: Combinatory Characters. I'm making a bunch of class-y things that I don't think I can talk too much about, but you get three of them. Any combination should be valid. In this way, I can create massive numbers of potential characters off of relatively few templates. And it's an exponential growth.


Does that do it for you? My copyright-friend says he'll help me through the process this coming weekend and I should be able to say a lot more.

radmelon
2012-04-14, 08:47 PM
That.
Sounds.
BRILLIANT.

HAVE MY MONEY. TAKE IT, TAKE IT ALL.

This is possibly the most interesting idea for a game ever. Even if it were to be abandoned, you should be enshrined for coming up with such an idea. I should probably go lay down before I start babbling even more.

tl;dr: Sounds cool.

Elfstone
2012-04-14, 10:41 PM
And you waited how long to tell us about it? I half wish you HADN'T told me because then I wouldn't be annoyed I can't play it right now... :smallfrown:

+1 to Sounds Cool. Adding totally AWESOME to the statement.

SamBurke
2012-04-14, 11:08 PM
OK, then.

Internet, don't fail me now.

/Tab, /search: "most epic word ever" /enter.

Internet, you failed me.

OK, then. I will understate, since I cannot understate.

That's a really unusual idea, a very basic one... sort of like the original ideas of Aristotle's, which led to European Alchemy (wind/water/earth/fire).

One thing I'll say: PROGRESSIVE START. I am totally doing this in every game ever, from now on... how to make it work in Pathfinder, though...

Welknair
2012-04-15, 01:10 AM
:smallredface:

I have quite a lot yet to do, I'm nowhere near done. But it IS very heartening that there are people out there that like this stuff. At the end of the first test, I was kind of thinking it was just me that would enjoy this stuff.



That.
Sounds.
BRILLIANT.

HAVE MY MONEY. TAKE IT, TAKE IT ALL.

This is possibly the most interesting idea for a game ever. Even if it were to be abandoned, you should be enshrined for coming up with such an idea. I should probably go lay down before I start babbling even more.

tl;dr: Sounds cool.

And you waited how long to tell us about it? I half wish you HADN'T told me because then I wouldn't be annoyed I can't play it right now... :smallfrown:

+1 to Sounds Cool. Adding totally AWESOME to the statement.

:smallbiggrin:


OK, then.

Internet, don't fail me now.

/Tab, /search: "most epic word ever" /enter.

Internet, you failed me.

OK, then. I will understate, since I cannot understate.

That's a really unusual idea, a very basic one... sort of like the original ideas of Aristotle's, which led to European Alchemy (wind/water/earth/fire).

One thing I'll say: PROGRESSIVE START. I am totally doing this in every game ever, from now on... how to make it work in Pathfinder, though...

Progressive Start is a very interesting idea, and takes some peculiar staging. Because of the life/death/growth cycle in my game, it fits in rather cleanly. It is possible, though difficult, to integrate in d20 and other standard TT RPG games. Though I was considering trying to draw up a basic mechanic.. Not quite sure how it'd work out.

SamBurke
2012-04-15, 01:23 AM
If you *can* draw it up, I'd love that...

Maybe it'd help with giving us stuff that can't touch your copyright?

TravelLog
2012-04-15, 03:33 PM
This sounds amazing in more ways than I care to count. Can't wait to see this in action. Count me in for any and all playtests.

SamBurke
2012-04-15, 10:34 PM
I've been thinking about it all day, and may take a crack at it (yay for first homebrew!), at least for Pathfinder, and link it here.

Welknair
2012-04-15, 10:40 PM
I've been thinking about it all day, and may take a crack at it (yay for first homebrew!), at least for Pathfinder, and link it here.

Feel free! I did a bit of pondering myself, and decided that it wouldn't quite work out how it did for Fourthland. Given the way Fourthland characters grow, it's worked cleanly into everything.

For d20 games, I think it'd be something more along the lines of "You're character is already fully developed, you just need to figure out who he is", where during the first session your actions determine where things get put. You'd of course need some better system than random allocation of character features.. This is where the mechanic would come in. I'm honestly interested to see what you'll come up with.


Edit: I showed my copy-right friend the recent posts on this thread, and he's as enthusiastic as ever for me to get rolling. And now my test-players are interested in playing this regularly while we wait for everyone else to show up.. With any luck I can start cranking out materials, now that I'm a little more confident in my foundation.

Random teaser-idea: When I get the base version of the rules done and typed up, I miiiight be willing to send the beta version to some people here on the forums to participate in a PbP using a chat service of some sort, possibly Steam or an IRC channel. This of course would be after my players have deemed the Alpha-Version not atrocious. It'll more than likely be a while.

And another random tidbit: It's a d4 game. To play, each player needs a single d4. Or I suppose you could just pass one around. Or flip two coins, in a pinch.

SamBurke
2012-04-16, 12:40 AM
Feel free! I did a bit of pondering myself, and decided that it wouldn't quite work out how it did for Fourthland. Given the way Fourthland characters grow, it's worked cleanly into everything.

For d20 games, I think it'd be something more along the lines of "You're character is already fully developed, you just need to figure out who he is", where during the first session your actions determine where things get put. You'd of course need some better system than random allocation of character features.. This is where the mechanic would come in. I'm honestly interested to see what you'll come up with.


Edit: I showed my copy-right friend the recent posts on this thread, and he's as enthusiastic as ever for me to get rolling. And now my test-players are interested in playing this regularly while we wait for everyone else to show up.. With any luck I can start cranking out materials, now that I'm a little more confident in my foundation.

Random teaser-idea: When I get the base version of the rules done and typed up, I miiiight be willing to send the beta version to some people here on the forums to participate in a PbP using a chat service of some sort, possibly Steam or an IRC channel. This of course would be after my players have deemed the Alpha-Version not atrocious. It'll more than likely be a while.

And another random tidbit: It's a d4 game. To play, each player needs a single d4. Or I suppose you could just pass one around. Or flip two coins, in a pinch.

Firsty first first firsteses.

Totally in. I'll PM you my Steam name and Skype info the moment I finish this "Progressive Start" attempt.

Welknair
2012-04-16, 12:48 AM
Random teaser-idea: When I get the base version of the rules done and typed up, I miiiight be willing to send the beta version to some people here on the forums to participate in a PbP using a chat service of some sort, possibly Steam or an IRC channel. This of course would be after my players have deemed the Alpha-Version not atrocious. It'll more than likely be a while.

A bit of emphasis added.

But yeah, if and when the above occurs, you can probably count yourself in. The reason I want to use a chat thing like those instead of standard PbP on the forums is 1) Still dealing with copyright and 2) Things at the start obviously move pretty quick, and the forums would slow that down considerably.

Though we WOULD need to work out time zone stuff... Eh, the worst that could happen is people staying up till 2 in the morning trying to understand an entirely new universe. I don't know about you guys, but I do that anyways :smalltongue:

SamBurke
2012-04-16, 12:54 AM
A bit of emphasis added.

But yeah, if and when the above occurs, you can probably count yourself in. The reason I want to use a chat thing like those instead of standard PbP on the forums is 1) Still dealing with copyright and 2) Things at the start obviously move pretty quick, and the forums would slow that down considerably.

Though we WOULD need to work out time zone stuff... Eh, the worst that could happen is people staying up till 2 in the morning trying to understand an entirely new universe. I don't know about you guys, but I do that anyways :smalltongue:

I know, I know. Nevertheless, I'll be PMing it to you now, because I have finished my super-speedy attempt at Progressive Start.

Progressive Start. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239940) It needs some work, methinks.

In other news, I usually work at laaaaaaaaate night anyway. Games with my player start at 10:00 my time.

Welknair
2012-04-16, 01:00 AM
Progressive Start. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239940) It needs some work, methinks.
Already posted on it. :smallbiggrin:



In other news, I usually work at laaaaaaaaate night anyway. Games with my player start at 10:00 my time.

Sounds like a good time, right? Late night gaming is a lot of fun, bet it gets.. Weird. Especially when you start questioning the fundaments of the universe. "Why do swords do more damage than pillows? Huh? Who decided that? Or SPOONS. What about SPOOONS. We should change them to 2d12. That sounds like a GREAT IDEA." (Thank Boccob this isn't based on a true story)

SamBurke
2012-04-16, 01:01 AM
Already posted on it. :smallbiggrin:


In other news, I usually work at laaaaaaaaate night anyway. Games with my player start at 10:00 my time.

Sounds like a good time, right? Late night gaming is a lot of fun, bet it gets.. Weird. Especially when you start questioning the fundaments of the universe. "Why do swords do more damage than pillows? Huh? Who decided that? Or SPOONS. What about SPOOONS. We should change them to 2d12. That sounds like a GREAT IDEA." (Thank Boccob this isn't based on a true story)

Yup, yup. You are faaaaaaaast.

I'd love to talk about that whatnot... Oh, right. PM. Lemme get that done.

Welknair
2012-04-16, 02:52 AM
THAT was quite the conversation. Exceedingly enjoyable.

Status of my hope in mankind: Notably raised, for the moment.

SamBurke
2012-04-16, 04:59 PM
THAT was quite the conversation. Exceedingly enjoyable.

Status of my hope in mankind: Notably raised, for the moment.

Same here!

Number of people with whom I can discuss philosophy and deep metaphysical thoughts: +1.

BTW, when will you be able to get back to that copyright expert? :smallwink:

Welknair
2012-04-17, 12:09 PM
BTW, when will you be able to get back to that copyright expert? :smallwink:

I should be doing the basic version of the copyrighting this weekend. And it's official: My group will be playing Fourthland a little each week, before our main GURPS game. And I'm quickly filling out content. I'm.. I'm really liking it. Things are going well. Soon I should be able to type up an Alpha version, with the basic materials.

SamBurke
2012-04-17, 12:13 PM
I should be doing the basic version of the copyrighting this weekend. And it's official: My group will be playing Fourthland a little each week, before our main GURPS game. And I'm quickly filling out content. I'm.. I'm really liking it. Things are going well. Soon I should be able to type up an Alpha version, with the basic materials.

VICTORY WILL BE MINNNNNE!

Or a playtest. That works too. If/when it's ok with you, on every other tuesday afternoon.

/Sanity mode0

Glad to hear it's coming along so well! Could you tell us how the roleplaying side of it goes, at least?

Welknair
2012-04-17, 03:13 PM
VICTORY WILL BE MINNNNNE!

Or a playtest. That works too. If/when it's ok with you, on every other tuesday afternoon.

/Sanity mode0

Glad to hear it's coming along so well! Could you tell us how the roleplaying side of it goes, at least?

Every other tuesday afternoon? That sounds quite specific.


As far as roleplaying goes, the first game didn't get around to a whole lot. I kind of spazzed in the middle, given the relative failure of the first test. Mostly they've begun to explore their world, which should be quite the interesting journey. You guys remember the friend of mine that gave me the idea for Magitech? Well he's in this game. I'm kind of afraid of what he'll do when he starts understanding things.

SamBurke
2012-04-17, 03:49 PM
Every other tuesday afternoon? That sounds quite specific.


As far as roleplaying goes, the first game didn't get around to a whole lot. I kind of spazzed in the middle, given the relative failure of the first test. Mostly they've begun to explore their world, which should be quite the interesting journey. You guys remember the friend of mine that gave me the idea for Magitech? Well he's in this game. I'm kind of afraid of what he'll do when he starts understanding things.

I can be more specific if you like. :smallwink:

So you have the perfect play tester, it sounds like.

Welknair
2012-04-17, 04:38 PM
I can be more specific if you like. :smallwink:

So you have the perfect play tester, it sounds like.

Yeah, if there's an exploit, he'll find it.

In my last game attempt, I had magic beasts actually caused by a form of magical mutation. The group found a Nightmare, and I tried to scientifically explain how the fire worked. I said that Nightmare hair is very flammable, but also grows back and a surprising rate, especially that around the hooves, tail, and mane. They have the ability to make themselves grow hotter until the volatile hair combusts. After the group subdued it, he immediately started cutting off hair and stuffing it in cloth sacks, then tying them up. I asked what he wanted to do that for, and he said he'd think of something. Later, the group was escaping from a group of raiders over a wooden bridge. He used them like molotovs. ... Speechless.

Later, he was trying to invent steam power. He wanted to mount a steam engine on the now-tamed Nightmare. Then he wanted to build a steam-powered machinegun (Mythbusters style) and attach THAT to it. I'm glad we switched to GURPS before that happened.

SamBurke
2012-04-17, 04:52 PM
Yeah, if there's an exploit, he'll find it.

In my last game attempt, I had magic beasts actually caused by a form of magical mutation. The group found a Nightmare, and I tried to scientifically explain how the fire worked. I said that Nightmare hair is very flammable, but also grows back and a surprising rate, especially that around the hooves, tail, and mane. They have the ability to make themselves grow hotter until the volatile hair combusts. After the group subdued it, he immediately started cutting off hair and stuffing it in cloth sacks, then tying them up. I asked what he wanted to do that for, and he said he'd think of something. Later, the group was escaping from a group of raiders over a wooden bridge. He used them like molotovs. ... Speechless.

Later, he was trying to invent steam power. He wanted to mount a steam engine on the now-tamed Nightmare. Then he wanted to build a steam-powered machinegun (Mythbusters style) and attach THAT to it. I'm glad we switched to GURPS before that happened.

At least Mythbusters proved it was near-deadly (to its operators) with modern timing devices.

Amechra
2012-04-17, 05:21 PM
Depending on when it would be, I would like to be included in the playtest; since one of my pastimes is considering metaphysics...

This game sounds right up my ally, and actually makes me wish I still had the notes for the game I was designing...

However, if you want any help with maths or creating tables or whatever, I will gladly help.

Welknair
2012-04-17, 05:36 PM
Depending on when it would be, I would like to be included in the playtest; since one of my pastimes is considering metaphysics...

This game sounds right up my ally, and actually makes me wish I still had the notes for the game I was designing...

However, if you want any help with maths or creating tables or whatever, I will gladly help.

I had barely considered that I could get playtesters from the forums... Hmmmmmmm.

Alright, this is probably going to happen at some point.

Because of Progressive Start, nobody needs to worry about making a character beforehand, too! :smallbiggrin:

Depending on how IRL stuff goes, as well as my own creative spurts, I may have something truly testable done in around 3 weeks. That ought to give me time to fill in the required rules about the multitude of things that'll come up.


Did a lot more work today. I finished re-writing gravity. It's.. weird. But cool, and can be used for all sorts of odd landscapes.

Elfstone
2012-04-17, 05:54 PM
I had barely considered that I could get playtesters from the forums... Hmmmmmmm.

Alright, this is probably going to happen at some point.

Because of Progressive Start, nobody needs to worry about making a character beforehand, too! :smallbiggrin:

Depending on how IRL stuff goes, as well as my own creative spurts, I may have something truly testable done in around 3 weeks. That ought to give me time to fill in the required rules about the multitude of things that'll come up.


Did a lot more work today. I finished re-writing gravity. It's.. weird. But cool, and can be used for all sorts of odd landscapes.
Barely considered! :smallsigh:

Please, count me in. :smalltongue:

However I think we(I) might need an asprin fund if you rewrite the laws of thermodynamics.

Welknair
2012-04-17, 06:09 PM
Barely considered! :smallsigh:
I know! Given how bright I am, you'd think I would have thought of it sooner! :smalltongue:


Please, count me in. :smalltongue:
Of course!


However I think we(I) might need an asprin fund if you rewrite the laws of thermodynamics.

Guess what I was working on today! :smallbiggrin:
It's really simple stuff, at this point though.


So.. With a hypothetical playtest with forum-peeps..

Samburke, Amechra, Elfstone.. I'm 80% sure that Radmelon and Jojolagger would be game, if I invited them. 5 people, perfect! :smallbiggrin:

radmelon
2012-04-17, 06:28 PM
I would love to do this. I'm a big fan of your works, and was actually going to ask if I could join yesterday, but got sidetracked.

jojolagger
2012-04-17, 06:37 PM
Samburke, Amechra, Elfstone.. I'm 80% sure that Radmelon and Jojolagger would be game, if I invited them. 5 people, perfect! :smallbiggrin:
Only 80%? Intentionally guessing low?
Honestly, unless I'm either dead, without net access, or bogged down with a todo list so large I had no leisure time, I'm game for testing anything by Welknair.
Also, I usually hold back on crazy ideas without something solid to go on, But from what I've heard, I'm likely to make a mad sciency type.

radmelon
2012-04-17, 06:53 PM
I'm likely to make a mad sciency type.

Ah, so art imitates life? :smalltongue:

SamBurke
2012-04-17, 10:07 PM
Guess what I was working on today! :smallbiggrin:
It's really simple stuff, at this point though.


I'm gonna need more headsplosion GIFs, methinks.

Let me dig.

Welknair
2012-04-17, 10:54 PM
I would love to do this. I'm a big fan of your works, and was actually going to ask if I could join yesterday, but got sidetracked.
Woo! Glad you're interested!


Only 80%? Intentionally guessing low?
Honestly, unless I'm either dead, without net access, or bogged down with a todo list so large I had no leisure time, I'm game for testing anything by Welknair.
Also, I usually hold back on crazy ideas without something solid to go on, But from what I've heard, I'm likely to make a mad sciency type.
Better guess too low than too high.

And awww :smallredface:

If you're mad-sciency, this game will be your playground. I finished writing how gravity works today. Fun stuff.


I'm gonna need more headsplosion GIFs, methinks.

Let me dig.

Originally this game was going to be "Fourthland: A Game of Abstraction", but now I'm considering "Fourthland: The Game of Headsplosions". Because you will headsplode. A lot. So much that "Headsplode" will become a word.

SamBurke
2012-04-17, 11:06 PM
There should be some sort of counter to judge how well a GM is doing: the more headsplosions, the better.

Then make a GMing contest based off of who can blow the most minds.

jojolagger
2012-04-17, 11:35 PM
Because you will headsplode. A lot. So much that "Headsplode" will become a word.

Good Luck. I'm fairly sure I've Developed Immunity by now.

TravelLog
2012-04-17, 11:57 PM
Count me in as well! I'd love to help!

Welknair
2012-04-18, 12:00 AM
There should be some sort of counter to judge how well a GM is doing: the more headsplosions, the better.

Then make a GMing contest based off of who can blow the most minds.

Hmm... RoC would probably score pretty well there. Just try to explain Xenotheurgy.


Good Luck. I'm fairly sure I've Developed Immunity by now.

Immunity, or just Resistance 50?


I hope I'm not drastically over-hyping this game. It'd be a shame if we finally got around to the playtest and it didn't meet expectations. I am introducing a lot of weird concepts, and it doesn't resemble any other game I know of, but it IS still a game.

So far, the most head-splodey bit might be the rules involving gravity and time that I wrote today. Yay altered time rates and situational gravity?

Edit: I seem to have been Sneak'd!


Count me in as well! I'd love to help!

Ah, a sixth! Guess how many basic first-tier class-y things there are? :smallbiggrin: That worked out nicey! The system is relatively easy rule-wise, so it shouldn't be too bad with 6.

SamBurke
2012-04-18, 12:20 AM
I hope I'm not drastically over-hyping this game. It'd be a shame if we finally got around to the playtest and it didn't meet expectations. I am introducing a lot of weird concepts, and it doesn't resemble any other game I know of, but it IS still a game.

So far, the most head-splodey bit might be the rules involving gravity and time that I wrote today. Yay altered time rates and situational gravity?


Despite the fact I've broken people's bones with the hardness of my head, it is easy to 'splode. Rewriting time makes me either squee or groan in pain.

Welknair
2012-04-18, 12:23 AM
Despite the fact I've broken people's bones with the hardness of my head, it is easy to 'splode. Rewriting time makes me either squee or groan in pain.

Well I did my best to prevent true time travel - It only changes the rate at which one moves through time. You can slow, but not REVERSE someone's travel. No grandfather paradoxes.

Well, not like you could do that anyways. What's a "Grandfather"? :smallwink:

If you guys hadn't noticed, I'm dropping hints about the game.

Amechra
2012-04-18, 12:42 AM
What, you kept time? OMFG, that sounds so boring, I'm leaving!
:smallwink:

All joking aside, how do you deal with different concepts of logic and philosophy? Did you leave existence as a binary state?

Welknair
2012-04-18, 12:49 AM
What, you kept time? OMFG, that sounds so boring, I'm leaving!
:smallwink:

All joking aside, how do you deal with different concepts of logic and philosophy? Did you leave existence as a binary state?

It's sad that I was actually worrying about not being weird enough. That's not something you experience regularly. Or at least I don't.

Logic and philosophy are in many ways as in our world. I'm secretly trying to make some commentaries and bring up real-life issues in the context of the game, a la Star Trek. I do have a morality system of sorts.

Buuut the nature of the world is a weird one. Things like "Free Will", "Morality" and "Personhood" do have slightly different meanings here, just by virtue of things working different, and them having some.. things we don't. And US having things THEY don't.

And if I understand what you're asking, yes, existence is binary.

Heh, binary. 1010101010. /incomprehensiblehint

SamBurke
2012-04-18, 01:08 AM
I can't wait!

Sounds like this will be a pretty deep game.....

When do you test it?

Welknair
2012-04-18, 01:16 AM
I can't wait!

Sounds like this will be a pretty deep game.....

When do you test it?

I hope it'll be deep. I'm a little new to that type of thing, though, so there'll likely be a bit of a learning curve.

I have a weekly GURPS game on the weekend, and as mentioned, there was a unanimous vote to start playing Fourthland while we wait for people to show. I'll be testing the multitude of new stuff this coming weekend, if all goes well.

TravelLog
2012-04-18, 09:34 AM
Excellent. And it should be interesting to see what your mad-genius player comes up with once he gets used to the system.

Welknair
2012-04-18, 10:43 AM
Excellent. And it should be interesting to see what your mad-genius player comes up with once he gets used to the system.

Well, since Gravity and Time are conveyed by manipulate-able matter.. I think he may be able to come up with some very bizarre things.

"Well as long as we're in the bubble, we get three actions for every one they get out there. So I just need to move all of the 11th that we gathered into this stone, and throw it out over the group. I'll hold onto everyone's weapons in the meantime, keeping them safe with my weaker 11th stone. The one we chuck will have a larger radius, so it should be able to get the guard's weapons, but not affect our own. So, 5 rounds for one of theirs.. I should have the stones ready in 6. You guys can cover me 'till then, right?"

Thinking he'll be something like Shaper/The Forge/Inventive or something like that. I haven't done too much about the Second and Third Tier shapes just yet.

jojolagger
2012-04-18, 10:47 AM
Immunity, or just Resistance 50?
95% resistance and fast healing. Between the people I know irl and Bhu, almost nothing affects me and what does wears off in under a minute.


Excellent. And it should be interesting to see what your mad-genius player comes up with once he gets used to the system.
Well it appears both time and gravity manupulation are game.

Well I did my best to prevent true time travel - It only changes the rate at which one moves through time. You can slow, but not REVERSE someone's travel. No grandfather paradoxes.
So I can have bullets that travel at 1m/s relative to themselves, but 20C relative to normal?:smallbiggrin:

Welknair
2012-04-18, 10:56 AM
95% resistance and fast healing. Between the people I know irl and Bhu, almost nothing affects me and what does wears off in under a minute.
I haven't talked to Bhu much.. Is he that headsplosion-causing? :smallconfused:


Well it appears both time and gravity manupulation are game.
Indeed! And interestingly enough, anyone can manipulate them. It's just not easy.


So I can have bullets that travel at 1m/s relative to themselves, but 20C relative to normal?:smallbiggrin:

Yup! And you can protect yourself from other people's bullets by throwing up bubbles of slowed-time!


I. Wow. I just realized something involving the time thing. Oooooooh. *Laughs evilly* I was trying to figure out why people wouldn't want to always be carrying around super-speed stones with them. Then I figured it out. Yeah, that'll do. That'll do.

TravelLog
2012-04-18, 11:02 AM
Thinking he'll be something like Shaper/The Forge/Inventive or something like that. I haven't done too much about the Second and Third Tier shapes just yet.
Aha! A hint about not-classes at last!

Welknair
2012-04-18, 11:04 AM
Aha! A hint about not-classes at last!


Edit: I seem to have been Sneak'd!


:smallwink:

jojolagger
2012-04-18, 11:15 AM
I haven't talked to Bhu much.. Is he that headsplosion-causing? :smallconfused:
Something similar to headsplosion. In the jesters realm, the current guildhouse owned by our party is a haunted brothel. In an out of character crazy duel the response to this (www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOT3pmynZlY) was this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QFwo57WKwg&ob=av2e). (do not watch the second video. it has a spot here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HighOctaneNightmareFuel.MusicVideos).) And that is the day I finally became immune most mental dissonance.

Indeed! And interestingly enough, anyone can manipulate them. It's just not easy.
"Which is easier, Transformation or illusion?" "For me, or in general?"

Yup! And you can protect yourself from other people's bullets by throwing up bubbles of slowed-time!
I can do better than slowing down bullets. Wonderful, Multi-element magi-tech device abound.

I. Wow. I just realized something involving the time thing. Oooooooh. *Laughs evilly* I was trying to figure out why people wouldn't want to always be carrying around super-speed stones with them. Then I figured it out. Yeah, that'll do. That'll do.
Because living at x5 speed means dying of old age 5x sooner. And needing to eat and drink 5x as much.

Welknair
2012-04-18, 11:35 AM
Something similar to headsplosion. In the jesters realm, the current guildhouse owned by our party is a haunted brothel. In an out of character crazy duel the response to this (www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOT3pmynZlY) was this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QFwo57WKwg&ob=av2e). (do not watch the second video. it has a spot here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HighOctaneNightmareFuel.MusicVideos).) And that is the day I finally became immune most mental dissonance.

Currently on my iPad, I'll check the videos when I'm at a comp.



I can do better than slowing down bullets. Wonderful, Multi-element magi-tech device abound.

I haven't yet, but I will likely end up incorporating a magitech-esque technology system.



Because living at x5 speed means dying of old age 5x sooner. And needing to eat and drink 5x as much.

What's "Death"? :smallwink: (But yeah, something along those lines)

jojolagger
2012-04-18, 11:42 AM
Currently on my iPad, I'll check the videos when I'm at a comp. Note I said "Do not watch the second video."
At least read the Bit on in on the High octane nightmare fuel page first. Then you won't be off guard.

Welknair
2012-04-18, 01:10 PM
Note I said "Do not watch the second video."
At least read the Bit on in on the High octane nightmare fuel page first. Then you won't be off guard.

I've read the page prior, I don't remember why though..


5 down, 1 to go! /vagueprogress

SamBurke
2012-04-18, 03:24 PM
Well, since Gravity and Time are conveyed by manipulate-able matter.. I think he may be able to come up with some very bizarre things.

"Well as long as we're in the bubble, we get three actions for every one they get out there. So I just need to move all of the 11th that we gathered into this stone, and throw it out over the group. I'll hold onto everyone's weapons in the meantime, keeping them safe with my weaker 11th stone. The one we chuck will have a larger radius, so it should be able to get the guard's weapons, but not affect our own. So, 5 rounds for one of theirs.. I should have the stones ready in 6. You guys can cover me 'till then, right?"

Thinking he'll be something like Shaper/The Forge/Inventive or something like that. I haven't done too much about the Second and Third Tier shapes just yet.

Ok, then.

I'll take him as a challenge.

WHO CAN BE MORE ABUSIVE.

Tell him he's on.

jojolagger
2012-04-18, 03:56 PM
Ok, then.

I'll take him as a challenge.

WHO CAN BE MORE ABUSIVE.

Tell him he's on.

Dude, I'm already designing a method of omniscience. I know little of the rules and I'm already on the verge of Omniscifer level tricks.
I also have an idea for a gun that chronofrags people.

Elfstone
2012-04-18, 04:27 PM
Note I said "Do not watch the second video."
At least read the Bit on in on the High octane nightmare fuel page first. Then you won't be off guard.

Too late. I click links first, read posts later..

Is it a bad thing the video didn't faze me at all? :smallconfused:

SamBurke
2012-04-18, 04:50 PM
Dude, I'm already designing a method of omniscience. I know little of the rules and I'm already on the verge of Omniscifer level tricks.
I also have an idea for a gun that chronofrags people.

>.>
<.<

Yeah, I'm not falling for it.

Bring it out on the court, playa.

radmelon
2012-04-18, 05:01 PM
>.>
<.<

Yeah, I'm not falling for it.

Bring it out on the court, playa.

I myself know jojolagger personally, and while I don't know you well enough to compare, I would advise you to be cautious. If he says he can chronofrag something, I don't want to be in the same timestream as it. He's come up with crazy hairbrained schemes before, and they usually work.

jojolagger
2012-04-18, 05:06 PM
I myself know jojolagger personally, and while I don't know you well enough to compare, I would advise you to be cautious. If he says he can chronofrag something, I don't want to be in the same timestream as it. He's come up with crazy hairbrained schemes before, and they usually work.

The gun doesn't chronofrag the normal way of putting the bullet in them through time, but instead pulls part of them away in time. Tearing them across the 4th dimension. :smallbiggrin:

The bullet has a very small and fast time field, so where ever it hits goes through time faster than the rest of them, tearing that bit out of them. Note that the gun must be able to cancel this out, which actually results in a faster bullet.

Amechra
2012-04-18, 10:39 PM
Why make a chronofrag gun when you can have a grenade that causes the animating principle to fall out of your enemy's body?

(Alter how gravity, Fourth, and structural elements interact; fun times occur.)

radmelon
2012-04-18, 10:43 PM
It kinda says something about our culture that the first reaction to a new system of rules is using to to make things explode in previously impossible ways.

jojolagger
2012-04-18, 10:47 PM
Why make a chronofrag gun when you can have a grenade that causes the animating principle to fall out of your enemy's body?

Because it's likely easier to fix a lack of animating principle than it is to stitch something back together when it's separated through time.


It kinda says something about our culture that the first reaction to a new system of rules is using to to make things explode in previously impossible ways.
In all fairness, I went for omniscience first. Once I exhausted the work I could do towards that front with my current amount of info, then I moved on to blowing stuff up.

radmelon
2012-04-18, 10:53 PM
Man, jojo, I am never nominating you for divinity, ever. At least not until you've shown you can avoid going batcrap mad with power.

jojolagger
2012-04-18, 11:03 PM
Man, jojo, I am never nominating you for divinity, ever. At least not until you've shown you can avoid going batcrap mad with power.

If you're the one controlling who gets divinity, we have bigger problems.

radmelon
2012-04-18, 11:06 PM
If you're the one controlling who gets divinity, we have bigger problems.

Geeze, I said nominate. This is definitely the kind of thing that shouldn't be up to one person/being/thing. I will, however, put a good word in for you with the boss.

Welknair
2012-04-18, 11:51 PM
...I cannot express in words how awesome you guys are.

TravelLog
2012-04-19, 08:50 AM
Is it wrong that I've already developed methods of teleportation, perpetual motion and cold fusion?

jojolagger
2012-04-19, 10:12 AM
Is it wrong that I've already developed methods of teleportation, perpetual motion and cold fusion?

I did perpetual motion using troll physics.
Cold fusion? Does that even work in this setting?
Also, Teleportation? I'm not seeing any way to actually have instantaneous travel.

SamBurke
2012-04-19, 10:44 AM
I myself know jojolagger personally, and while I don't know you well enough to compare, I would advise you to be cautious. If he says he can chronofrag something, I don't want to be in the same timestream as it. He's come up with crazy hairbrained schemes before, and they usually work.

Honestly, I will admit to inferiority. I just won't do so until I actually see the system. Apparently I'm not good enough at inferences to get enough out of the system to use it.

We'll see what little I can do once I actually have rules in front of me.

That said, I can already think of some alchemy basics.

Welknair
2012-04-19, 11:23 AM
I did perpetual motion using troll physics.
Cold fusion? Does that even work in this setting?
Also, Teleportation? I'm not seeing any way to actually have instantaneous travel.

I've been doing some pondering of these things myself.

Perpetual motion shouldn't be too difficult, especially abusing 11th a bit. (I hope we all know what that is by now)

Cold fusion.. I said earlier that there were no molecules.. What exactly are you fusing? :smallconfused:

Teleportation? I'm really curious what you're thinking of for that one.

Jojolagger - Chronofragging sounds scary as heck. I may actually want to make a D&D PrC or something based on the idea... However, in Fourthland beings are cohesive beings, not composed of smaller particles. I think in general, 11th would affect the entirety of any being that is at least half within the field. And it is worth noting that Fourth works a deal differently than the rest. For example, you can't use 7th to move it around.


That said, I can already think of some alchemy basics.

Ohhhh yeah. Alchemy is going to be pretty big here.

TravelLog
2012-04-19, 12:29 PM
Ah. Missed the no molecules. Teleportation was easy. It just followed a logical chain of manipulating space-time through matter/gravity manipulation. Technically, it's not so much teleportation as it is moving the entire universe so that object ends up where you want it. Though you can also move the object itself.

It's just more fun the first way.

Welknair
2012-04-19, 03:10 PM
Ah. Missed the no molecules. Teleportation was easy. It just followed a logical chain of manipulating space-time through matter/gravity manipulation. Technically, it's not so much teleportation as it is moving the entire universe so that object ends up where you want it. Though you can also move the object itself.

It's just more fun the first way.

I'm not entirely sure how that is supposed to work, but I will be very impressed if you pull it off.



Progress: 6 of 6, 1 of 3. And I had some ideas for a subsystem which I think you guys will like very, very much.

Amechra
2012-04-19, 03:15 PM
So I can't force the Fourth and the Seventh in someone's body to interact, thus making the Fourth... fall out?

Also, does the Law of Conservation of Energy still exist in this universe; otherwise, there are evil, evil, EVIL things we can do.

But yeah, since I only know of 3 component Energies (Fourth (Lifeforce), Seventh (Gravity), and Eleventh (Time) (I assigned those numbers at random; I'll get the terminology correct once I have my toolbox.)), I can already pull of cryogenics, if necessary (Remove Eleventh from the area; therefor, they just go through time as slow as hell), and I'm pretty sure I can pull off Crack the Sky (Exalted charm where you toss someone miles, for massive amounts of pain; you can do it through pure manipulation of Seventh, especially if there are any ways to lock someone's ability to change their gravitational direction. This is a party trick, by the way.)

Oh, and I'll also need to know if any of Newton's Laws still exist in game, and how "strongly" they apply.

Also, just for ****s and giggles, if we can figure out a method of converting energies into other energies, I totally have a method to duplicate the Event Horizon of a black hole (convert 11th into 7th).

I can pull of practically instantaneous travel (Welknair gave some hints about how you can potentially affect a part of an object; just move the 11th from every creature inside to the "ship" they are sitting in, and have some sort of AI (Eh, just fill it with 4th, that should do it) move the ship; the people riding barely experience any time passing, while the ship is moving hella fast.)

Oh, before I forget... is Distance an energy?

jojolagger
2012-04-19, 06:17 PM
I can already pull of cryogenics, if necessary (Remove Eleventh from the area; therefor, they just go through time as slow as hell)
Cryo is cold... Chronogenics would be a better term.

I'm pretty sure I can pull off Crack the Sky (Exalted charm where you toss someone miles, for massive amounts of pain use 7th and 11th so they get throw about without time to react.

method of converting energies into other energies, I totally have a method to duplicate the Event Horizon of a black hole (convert 11th into 7th).
I want this too. Even it is is needlessly complex.

I can pull of practically instantaneous travel (Welknair gave some hints about how you can potentially affect a part of an object; just move the 11th from every creature inside to the "ship" they are sitting in, and have some sort of AI (Eh, just fill it with 4th, that should do it) move the ship; the people riding barely experience any time passing, while the ship is moving hella fast.)
True, but a similar vehicle with weapons would be more than sufficient to counter it.

Also, Regarding chronofragging: oh well, It still acts as an effective stun lock weapon, but reducing their turns compared to our turns.

@travellog Thought of that for teleportation, but that level of manipulation can likely be used far more effectively.

TravelLog
2012-04-19, 07:01 PM
@travellog Thought of that for teleportation, but that level of manipulation can likely be used far more effectively.
Naturally. But I've got to keep some secrets don't I?

radmelon
2012-04-19, 07:33 PM
Welknair, I hope you're proud of yourself. You're about to unleash several madmen with plans of world discombobulation and maybe the power to do it onto an innocent setting.

Elfstone
2012-04-19, 08:12 PM
An untouched setting even!

After the play test I think you can consider it roughed up. I just hope I survive with all my mental faculties. :smallsigh:

Amechra
2012-04-19, 08:41 PM
Cryo is cold... Chronogenics would be a better term.
True... plus that sounds cooler.
use 7th and 11th so they get throw about without time to react.
That's what I was thinking.
I want this too. Even it is is needlessly complex.
Yes, that would be remarkably sweet; especially once we find out about more energies
True, but a similar vehicle with weapons would be more than sufficient to counter it.
That's why we build weapons on it first.


I, for one, am waiting for the other energies; imagine a Structure gun, that just removes the structural Energy from your enemy...

SamBurke
2012-04-20, 01:16 PM
Hm.

Life, Time, Gravity. 4, 11, 7.

My new project: making a Tardis and a Time Lord.

radmelon
2012-04-20, 01:41 PM
Of course, this leads to an obvious joke involving 7-11. "You sell what?" :smallconfused::smalleek:

SamBurke
2012-04-20, 01:49 PM
Of course, this leads to an obvious joke involving 7-11. "You sell what?" :smallconfused::smalleek:

Yeah, i was gonna leave that.

BUT NOT ANYMORE!

I wonder which one's magnetism.

Welknair
2012-04-23, 12:32 AM
Been away due to RL for the last couple of days, hence the lack of thread-attendance.


Welknair, I hope you're proud of yourself. You're about to unleash several madmen with plans of world discombobulation and maybe the power to do it onto an innocent setting.


An untouched setting even!

After the play test I think you can consider it roughed up. I just hope I survive with all my mental faculties. :smallsigh:
I'm am officially afraid of this game.

Copyright: We're working on it. Didn't get it done this weekend, but I learned a deal and we're in the process.

Physics: Real-world physics can be assumed to generally apply here. Just keep in mind the lack of atoms. Pretty much, they work except where otherwise noted.

Energies: 7th is NOT gravity. I actually think I forgot to drop the hint for that one.

"On the first day of Fourthland, Welknair gave to me...... Structure to hold me together."


Other stuff: I've done a lot of work. In addition to a lot of work on the class-y things, I've added a few more tricks that characters can pick up that are specifically geared towards players like you. Why I'm doing this, I'm not sure, since it will only cause strife for me later. Maybe I'm insane. It'd explain a deal.

Amechra
2012-04-23, 01:21 AM
So Structure is 1?

I just used 7 for Gravity because I was making an educated guess.

Remove 1 - The thing disintegrates.

Add 1 - The thing becomes ultra dense; additionally, can be used to create nigh-on anything FROM SCRATCH! My architect side is drooling right now, as is my planetary engineer (with enough Structure in one spot, you should make something so dense and interconnected that gravity stops messing with it.)

And Welknair, my friend, you do realize how much of how our world works when you move off a macroscopic level is based off atomization, right? In other words, once we get into the nitty gritty of physics, your system will be very different, very different indeed.

Welknair
2012-04-23, 01:49 AM
So Structure is 1?

I just used 7 for Gravity because I was making an educated guess.

Remove 1 - The thing disintegrates.

Add 1 - The thing becomes ultra dense; additionally, can be used to create nigh-on anything FROM SCRATCH! My architect side is drooling right now, as is my planetary engineer (with enough Structure in one spot, you should make something so dense and interconnected that gravity stops messing with it.)

And Welknair, my friend, you do realize how much of how our world works when you move off a macroscopic level is based off atomization, right? In other words, once we get into the nitty gritty of physics, your system will be very different, very different indeed.

Your assessment of 1st is correct.

Atoms: Ehhhhhh... What I mean is that basic physics apply. I realize that most everything is due to atomic reactions and forces, and I've already stated that those don't exist. But for all intents and purposes, the world still largely works as if they were there, except where noted. I'm doing a lot to rewrite things, but rewriting every single piece of physics is a bit much, even for me. Does that make any sort of sense?

SamBurke
2012-04-23, 11:08 AM
Your assessment of 1st is correct.

Atoms: Ehhhhhh... What I mean is that basic physics apply. I realize that most everything is due to atomic reactions and forces, and I've already stated that those don't exist. But for all intents and purposes, the world still largely works as if they were there, except where noted. I'm doing a lot to rewrite things, but rewriting every single piece of physics is a bit much, even for me. Does that make any sort of sense?

Good heavens.

I need to stockpile EVEN MORE headsplode pics.

I am now genuinely scared of the rest of my party.

Welknair
2012-04-23, 11:15 AM
Good heavens.

I need to stockpile EVEN MORE headsplode pics.

I am now genuinely scared of the rest of my party.



I'm am officially afraid of this game.


I know what you mean.

How many hours are there on a clock face?

Xechon
2012-04-23, 11:32 AM
I honestly love where this is going right now, the potential to exploit even the laws of the universe tickles the theoretical physicist inside of me. You probably already thought of this, but you might want to include some ways to easily and obviously break reality so that new players aren't left out due to lack of knowledge(physics) and knowledge(find loophole). However, don't make them complete paths, so if someone learns about the system and wants to play with the big kids, they don't have to start a new character. Just an idea.

SamBurke
2012-04-23, 11:35 AM
The answer is 12.

But does anyone else know what the question is?

(I have a nervous tic, which is why I found the clue on an earlier page).

Welknair
2012-04-23, 12:28 PM
I honestly love where this is going right now, the potential to exploit even the laws of the universe tickles the theoretical physicist inside of me. You probably already thought of this, but you might want to include some ways to easily and obviously break reality so that new players aren't left out due to lack of knowledge(physics) and knowledge(find loophole). However, don't make them complete paths, so if someone learns about the system and wants to play with the big kids, they don't have to start a new character. Just an idea.

Yeah, this will be effectively a playground for those willing to make it such. There are some pretty obvious and cool things you can do with my physics, without having to be the mad-scientists that apparently this playtest group is.

Tick, Tock


The answer is 12.

But does anyone else know what the question is?

(I have a nervous tic, which is why I found the clue on an earlier page).

That was fast! I usually do the same thing, but can't on my iPad, sadly.
Click, Clack
I think I may use that to drop subtler hints, as many will find them pretty easily.
Arc, Circle

Edit: Hmm... I'm considering expanding things later by adding another four energies. For the heck of it.
Cycle, Grand Cycle

For the record, I'm currently bouncing around between the second group of class-y things and more physics stuff.
Father Cycle, Mother Cycle

Tick, Tock

SamBurke
2012-04-23, 01:19 PM
We know of the following ideas:

Gravity, Time, Heat, Light, Movement, Life. That's six out of 12. That's mostly from page one. What else?

We know it's a d4. We know it's a progressive start to the char build.

Help, guys?

Welknair
2012-04-23, 01:48 PM
We know of the following ideas:

Gravity, Time, Heat, Light, Movement, Life. That's six out of 12. That's mostly from page one. What else?

We know it's a d4. We know it's a progressive start to the char build.

Help, guys?

You forgot about "Combinatory Characters" that I also talked about on the front page. Tick, Tock

There's a number of other things I've dropped as well, but those are the main ones. Tick, Tock

TravelLog
2012-04-23, 04:06 PM
Click, Clack

Arc, Circle

Cycle, Grand Cycle

Father Cycle, Mother Cycle

Tick, Tock

Hmm... interesting.

Welknair
2012-04-23, 04:44 PM
Hmm... interesting.
You missed the top one.
What are you talking about?? :smallconfused:

TravelLog
2012-04-23, 07:27 PM
Musings old boy, just musings.
And you are correct. Gotta be more careful next time. Incidentally, six sets of two --->12 total. Curious-er and curious-er...
We know of the following ideas:

Gravity, Time, Heat, Light, Movement, Life. That's six out of 12. That's mostly from page one. What else?

We know it's a d4. We know it's a progressive start to the char build.

Help, guys?

Reverse is one, so I think. Not 100% on that though. I might have misinterpreted. Also wondering what the significance of 682 is...

Amechra
2012-04-23, 08:24 PM
SCREEEEAAAAAAAAM!

Sorry; you said htREMOVEtp://REMOVEwww.scp-wiki.net/scp-682

radmelon
2012-04-23, 08:27 PM
Does the black moon howl?

Amechra
2012-04-23, 09:21 PM
No. The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.

Welknair
2012-04-23, 11:51 PM
Does the black moon howl?


No. The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
???? Tick, Tock
..Wha? Click, Clack
Cycles upon cycles
IN OTHER NEWS:
Binder the first, you have served me well. *Salutes*
What has been will be, and what will be has been.
I keep the vast majority of my homebrew (Including Fourthland) in a black binder I carry nearly everywhere. It got full, so I went out and got a second one. This says something about how much I brew.
There is no end to the endless
Edit: Oh, and I'm seeing if I can set the record for most views on a homebrew thread that never actually contains crunch. BWAHAHAHA. If you're reading this, say "Pickle" in white text in your next post.

TravelLog
2012-04-24, 12:44 AM
If you succeed I'm not sure whether that says you're well respected or if the community is nerds with too much time on their hands. You can't tell me what to say! Cucumber.

Amechra
2012-04-24, 12:45 AM
Yay, cyclical nature of time and potentially energies!

Pickle.

SamBurke
2012-04-24, 10:27 AM
Epiliptic Pickles.

Well, then. Cyclical History.

Should make for some fun stuff.

Welknair
2012-04-25, 12:22 AM
Guess who wrote another two class-y things today, and worked on the physics of the universe a bit! :smallbiggrin: All things return to the beginning.

SamBurke
2012-04-25, 12:28 AM
Probably not you.
Hm... Does that mean we have closed time loops?
OR DID YOU?

Welknair
2012-04-25, 12:33 AM
Probably not you.

OR DID YOU?

If it was someone else, I'd really like to meet them! Maybe they could help me make more! Perhaps. Perhaps it is another sort of hint.

SamBurke
2012-04-25, 12:47 AM
If it was someone else, I'd really like to meet them! Maybe they could help me make more!
I might just be taking cycles too literally... I can tell there are three types, though: Mother, Father, Grand.
Hm... I guess that'd be fully possible, if you believe in the many worlds theory.

Welknair
2012-04-25, 12:49 AM
Hm... I guess that'd be fully possible, if you believe in the many worlds theory.

Ah, my favorite theory! It works so cleanly with time-travel! No grandfather paradoxes! Cycles=Yes. But there's more. To the beginning, all things return. To. The. Beginning.

SamBurke
2012-04-25, 12:54 AM
Well that implies a creation of some sort... we know there was a creation story, so that helps. I'm guessing sub-universe.
Indeed. I actually have my own theory of time travel, but it's a little more boring...
As to the cycles, glad to know that's correct... now to hypothesize on the differences.

Welknair
2012-04-25, 12:56 AM
Indeed. I actually have my own theory of time travel, but it's a little more boring...

The beginning. The start. The first page of the book. The first page.
May as well throw it out there. That is the last I'll say about that hint.

SamBurke
2012-04-25, 01:03 AM
I call it the "sovereignty" theory of time travel: whatever has happened is what happened, and whatever will happen is what will happen: past, present and future are already written. No matter what you can do, you can't change them.
I'm gonna guess it's book-oriented somehow... Hm.
Thus, for the grandfather paradox, you would be unable to kill your grandfather. Some strange combination of fate would prevent you every time. Killing John Wilkes Booth or Adolph Hitler would likewise be prevented: the timeline has already dictated that they lived to do what they do, so they already have.

Welknair
2012-04-25, 01:05 AM
I call it the "sovereignty" theory of time travel: whatever has happened is what happened, and whatever will happen is what will happen: past, present and future are already written. No matter what you can do, you can't change them.

Thus, for the grandfather paradox, you would be unable to kill your grandfather. Some strange combination of fate would prevent you every time. Killing John Wilkes Booth or Adolph Hitler would likewise be prevented: the timeline has already dictated that they lived to do what they do, so they already have.

Ah, this is quite common, actually. It is the primary solution to paradoxes in the Linear Timeline model. Bill and Ted's awesome (Dif adjective?) adventure is a good example. You can't change the past, because your actions trying to change the past caused it to happen as it did.

Read Homestuck, if you don't already. ALL THE TIME TRAVEL.

SamBurke
2012-04-25, 01:57 AM
So, interesting... we're all tied together by a "bond" and it's an all or nothing venture...
Question for others: What do books have?
Hm...

TravelLog
2012-04-25, 09:02 AM
Ah Bill and Ted. The only movie where Keanu Reeves' emotionless acting makes sense. "I'm working on possible meanings, but search me so far. Maybe he means typical openings to books, like "Once upon a time"?

radmelon
2012-04-25, 09:13 AM
Homestuck's timetravel was the best. "The thing with time travel is, you cannot overthink it. Just roll with it and see what happens, and above all try not to do anything stupid."
Could it perhaps be 'harmony' or 'friendship'? That's what immediately comes to mind for me.

TravelLog
2012-04-25, 11:01 AM
I'm a fan of futurama's myself.
Page One is often the title page
Fry goes back and becomes his own grandfather. No paradox, just awkward family reunions. "So perhaps it's "Name", like Truenaming but not ridiculous

Amechra
2012-04-25, 03:33 PM
I personally like Primer's model, but if you ain't into physics, that thing'll bore you to TEARS.

I just had a brain-flash; we're all fictional, within the world; bringing together the intro and some of those hints, we are a story that has bucked its creator's control.

SamBurke
2012-04-25, 04:48 PM
I like that idea quite a bit...
Dat brainflash sounds about right...
Favorite Time Travel is stable loops, A'la Back to the Future and MLP.

TravelLog
2012-04-25, 04:56 PM
Whoop there it is. That definitely sounds like it could be right. Nice work.

Welknair
2012-04-27, 12:55 AM
I'm considering the inclusion of an energy that conveys Space.. The result would be much like the one that conveys time - Fields wherein time/space works a rate relative to everything outside the field.
Red, Blue, Yellow.
Example: Space 2 field would result in someone traveling one space inside equaling someone traveling two outside. -2 would result in the opposite effect. Given how much you guys messing and exploiting physics.. It only seemed natural. A code to live by.

Amechra
2012-04-27, 01:14 AM
You... are much too kind to us.

Seriously, what did we do to deserve this kinda windfall?

If we can set up a moving field, progressive-speed FTL travel is in our grasp! (Very simple; lock the back end of a Time-and-Space Dilatory Field to the back of your "ship". Fly it wherever you want.)

Also, there is miniaturization, which, due to a lack of atomization, means we can scale things infinitely! (Or practically so...)

Welknair
2012-04-27, 01:20 AM
You... are much too kind to us.

Seriously, what did we do to deserve this kinda windfall?
I felt like being generous. And I know that you guys (And my mad-scientist player) will use it to great effect. Do expect it to be quite rare though.



If we can set up a moving field, progressive-speed FTL travel is in our grasp! (Very simple; lock the back end of a Time-and-Space Dilatory Field to the back of your "ship". Fly it wherever you want.)

Also, there is miniaturization, which, due to a lack of atomization, means we can scale things infinitely! (Or practically so...)
My favorite sort of FTL travel! Though it would be overcoming the limits of the movement-conveying energy, not speed-of-light limits. Because hey. What's "Light" again? :smallwink:



That reminds me! Are there any specific things you guys would like to see in the game? These can range from "Some way to achieve FTL travel" to "MAGITECH" to "A balance between utility and combat powers". Do keep in mind this is me we're talking about, so I'm already keeping general balance and game-guideline stuff in mind. But if you have any specific requests/suggestions, I'll consider them.

SamBurke
2012-04-27, 07:56 AM
I honestly trust you to do whatever. Ok, so traditional alignments are out. Colorwheel?

radmelon
2012-04-27, 09:11 AM
You know this is going to end in fire and oblivion, right? Isn't it obvious? Elemental pokemon!

jojolagger
2012-04-27, 09:14 AM
That reminds me! Are there any specific things you guys would like to see in the game?
Magitech as a form of controlling the elements in uncommon ways (Ray Of gravity anyone? How about negative Structure? )


Example: Space 2 field would result in someone traveling one space inside equaling someone traveling two outside. -2 would result in the opposite effect. Given how much you guys messing and exploiting physics.. It only seemed natural. A code to live by.
Now to find a way to build the super hat of of storing, where the only remaining problem getting control of some non-Euclidean geometry.

Also question. What happens if you start removing structure from people?

Welknair
2012-04-27, 09:31 AM
You know this is going to end in fire and oblivion, right?
Oh yeah. I realized that a while ago. May as well embrace it!


Magitech as a form of controlling the elements in uncommon ways (Ray Of gravity anyone? How about negative Structure? )
That's what Seventh and Alchemies are for, my friend. Seventh and Alchemies.



Also question. What happens if you start removing structure from people?
What do you think an "Attack" is? :smallwink: They will return.

jojolagger
2012-04-27, 09:55 AM
What do you think an "Attack" is? :smallwink: They will return.

Okay then, What if you apply negative structure to something?

Welknair
2012-04-27, 09:59 AM
Okay then, What if you apply negative structure to something?

Under normal circumstances, "Negative First" is too unstable to really do anything with. It just sort of disperses in a cloud of structural decay. With the use of Seventh Masteries, however, it is possible to stabilize it. Alchemies can then be used to craft it...
They always return.
If you were to straight-up add neg-1st to pos-1st, the result would be less pos-1st.

SamBurke
2012-04-27, 10:13 AM
Hm..
Cyclical. I wonder what that does to philosophy.
I know what I want.
Or even... logic. Or Religion. Or morality. Squeee!
I want non-linear logic. I know that the Far East has a more cyclical, pre-decided logic, which would be fun to look at. I mean, if you're changing the physics, might as well change the metaphysics.

TravelLog
2012-04-27, 10:19 AM
Oooh...requests!

Too bad this is already my dream come true! I trust you Welknair. Though if I think of anything I'll be sure to mention it.

Xechon
2012-04-27, 11:12 AM
Okay, so humor me. If there is no minute building block particle (the atom), would one blast of remove structure or remove lifeforce kill instantly? How would you defend your self, a force-field of floating bits of structure? I understand that the practical should never come close to this system, but not many people want a gritty one-hit kill combat system, and those who do don't want to kick physics until it cries.

Can't wait for the release, I have to get a copy of this.:smallbiggrin:

Welknair
2012-04-27, 11:24 AM
Hm..

I know what I want.

I want non-linear logic. I know that the Far East has a more cyclical, pre-decided logic, which would be fun to look at. I mean, if you're changing the physics, might as well change the metaphysics.
Hmm... I'll need to think about this a bit.


Oooh...requests!

Too bad this is already my dream come true! I trust you Welknair. Though if I think of anything I'll be sure to mention it.
:smallbiggrin: Please do!


Okay, so humor me. If there is no minute building block particle (the atom), would one blast of remove structure or remove lifeforce kill instantly? How would you defend your self, a force-field of floating bits of structure? I understand that the practical should never come close to this system, but not many people want a gritty one-hit kill combat system, and those who do don't want to kick physics until it cries.

Can't wait for the release, I have to get a copy of this.:smallbiggrin:
I'm trying to avoid giving away too many specifics about how exactly this works until I get that copyright, but I can assure you that there will be no "1-hit-KO" in the manner you're talking about. It is very difficult to remove the entirety of an energy from a creature in a single blow.

And I'm glad you're liking where this was going! For a little while there I thought it was going to be so weird no one would even consider playing it!

Elfstone
2012-04-27, 07:48 PM
You know this is going to end in fire and oblivion, right? Isn't it obvious? Elemental pokemon!

I think Ice might do quite nicely.

IreliVent
2012-04-29, 10:04 AM
I have a question, are there any liquids? and if so how do they work?

Welknair
2012-04-30, 12:31 AM
I have a question, are there any liquids? and if so how do they work?
There will be liquids, and other states of matter. Matter is the next big thing for me to tackle. Most matter-properties are covered by Energies, but not all. I have some work to do there. Millenia before our blind eyes.

Story Time
2012-04-30, 06:38 AM
Um... Hi?

I was...pointed in the direction of this thread. And...I think I'm here to contribute, but I'm not really sure if I can, or about what.

All that I really know about copy-right law is that a physical manual ( a copy ) has to be established and sent in to the Library of Congress for proof of copy-right and author-ship. Copy-right is established by creation, not by recognition from the Library. But one of the expected requirements of that establishment is a signed and dated piece of physical material by the author.

Um...I'll try to be quiet now. Also, pickle?

Welknair
2012-04-30, 09:17 AM
Um... Hi?

I was...pointed in the direction of this thread. And...I think I'm here to contribute, but I'm not really sure if I can, or about what.

All that I really know about copy-right law is that a physical manual ( a copy ) has to be established and sent in to the Library of Congress for proof of copy-right and author-ship. Copy-right is established by creation, not by recognition from the Library. But one of the expected requirements of that establishment is a signed and dated piece of physical material by the author.

Um...I'll try to be quiet now.

I can use as many opinions as I can on as much of this as I can. What are your general opinions about what you see going on here?

I'll look into that bit about Copyright.. I hadn't heard about that before.

Edit: I think it'd be a good idea if I gave a formal listing of my design goals:

1. To make a game that is fun and that people enjoy playing. (Duh)
2. To make a game that allows for cool stories that people make together.
3. To make a game that is placed in a world entirely unlike our own, allowing players to grow and explore in a novel environment.
4. To foster various virtues and values, such as but not including: Teamwork, Compassion, Creativity, Bravery, Selflessness and Curiousity.

Story Time
2012-04-30, 10:15 AM
I can use as many opinions as I can on as much of this as I can. What are your general opinions about what you see going on here?

I'm, not sure what I see going on in here. The opening posts were...interesting. I think that I see that Welknair believes he has a really good idea. I suppose that I want to support that idea, but neither am I exactly certain what the idea is. So, while theoretical brain-storms are interesting, I should probably say to give a true evaluation of what Welknair plans, I'll have to physically see it in my game table.

Now, honestly, I don't want to pressure you to do that.



I'll look into that bit about Copyright.. I hadn't heard about that before.

Yeah, they send you a certificate after searching their records and finding no ridiculously obvious matches. That's what proof of copy-right is. It's supposed, though may not, protect you in court if some-thing ever gets weird. Copy-right is established by the author upon creation of the intellectual property. That's the law to the extent that I know it. However, proving that you're the creator requires a copy ( hard, physical, copy ) with the creator's name and date.

Yeah...I've had some...experiences in the publishing industry. I'll...not talk about it. :smallfrown:



Edit: I think it'd be a good idea if I gave a formal listing of my design goals:

Those are some nice goals. I like them. :smallsmile:



4. To foster various virtues and values, such as but not including: Teamwork, Compassion, Creativity, Bravery, Selflessness and Curiousity.

...game theory Rule One, "If you want Players to repeat an activity, reward them for that activity." :smallsmile:

Welknair
2012-04-30, 10:23 AM
I'm, not sure what I see going on in here. The opening posts were...interesting. I think that I see that Welknair believes he has a really good idea. I suppose that I want to support that idea, but neither am I exactly certain what the idea is. So, while theoretical brain-storms are interesting, I should probably say to give a true evaluation of what Welknair plans, I'll have to physically see it in my game table.

Now, honestly, I don't want to pressure you to do that.

That makes a deal of sense. Perhaps one of the other people that has been following this thread can summarize what they've pieced together?



Yeah, they send you a certificate after searching their records and finding no ridiculously obvious matches. That's what proof of copy-right is. It's supposed, though may not, protect you in court if some-thing ever gets weird. Copy-right is established by the author upon creation of the intellectual property. That's the law to the extent that I know it. However, proving that you're the creator requires a copy ( hard, physical, copy ) with the creator's name and date.

Yeah...I've had some...experiences in the publishing industry. I'll...not talk about it. :smallfrown:
Well I'm glad to know I have another person to contact that knows at least a little about copyright!



Those are some nice goals. I like them. :smallsmile:

...game theory Rule One, "If you want Players to repeat an activity, reward them for that activity." :smallsmile:
OH YEAAAAH :smallcool:

(Also compare and contrast with rule one of homebrewing: If you can't imagine a player wanting to use it, it's underpowered. If you can't imagine a player NOT wanting to use it, it's overpowered)

SamBurke
2012-04-30, 10:37 AM
......

We know there are 12 energies that make up the world, similar to the 112 elements in ours. Each of these energies (Gravity, Time, Structure, Life, Heat, among others) can be altered, switched, bound, or removed.

There's a heavy emphasis on cycles and story-telling, with some Eastern Mysticism thrown in for good measure.

Story Time
2012-04-30, 10:53 AM
Yes, thanks. That was a pretty good summary.

I thought that I caught some reincarnation leaning hints?

Welknair
2012-04-30, 10:53 AM
......

We know there are 12 energies that make up the world, similar to the 112 elements in ours. Each of these energies (Gravity, Time, Structure, Life, Heat, among others) can be altered, switched, bound, or removed.

There's a heavy emphasis on cycles and story-telling, with some Eastern Mysticism thrown in for good measure.

I've dropped hints about a number of other things, but those are the main points.

And actually, the design goals that I just listed could be considered hints themselves..

Edit: Sneak'd



Yes, thanks. That was a pretty good summary.

I thought that I caught some reincarnation leaning hints?


hints about a number of other things
:smallwink:

TravelLog
2012-04-30, 10:56 AM
Been thinking about requests and I've got a good one: physical embodiments for each of the 12 energies. Whether it's an individual ever generation or god-like immortal avatars, I think it'd be awesome.

Welknair
2012-04-30, 11:53 AM
Been thinking about requests and I've got a good one: physical embodiments for each of the 12 energies. Whether it's an individual ever generation or god-like immortal avatars, I think it'd be awesome.

I like it. I'll look for a way to work that in. *Evil laugh*

Story Time
2012-05-01, 07:00 AM
...now that I've had a few hours to think about Welknair's last comment, my immediate thought is that the players might be filling those roles...

Amechra
2012-05-01, 03:00 PM
Wait, that wasn't painfully obvious to the rest of you?

TravelLog
2012-05-01, 03:05 PM
Wait, that wasn't painfully obvious to the rest of you?

It was. But I meant more than just being able manipulate the 12 elements. I meant incarnations, GODS. But I digress.

Amechra
2012-05-01, 04:22 PM
Again, that wasn't obvious to everyone?

I call Structure, by the way.

TravelLog
2012-05-01, 04:45 PM
Again, that wasn't obvious to everyone?

I call Structure, by the way.

Well I think there are other possibilities, largely because in Welknair's words there are "six things" that are like classes, while there are 12 elements. Meaning we either each get two or six aren't usable by us. Only in the latter case would we truly be incarnations rather than manipulators.

But just in case, I call Time.

Welknair
2012-05-01, 05:35 PM
Well I think there are other possibilities, largely because in Welknair's words there are "six things" that are like classes, while there are 12 elements. Meaning we either each get two or six aren't usable by us. Only in the latter case would we truly be incarnations rather than manipulators.

But just in case, I call Time.

*Cackles*

6, 8, 12, 4 4 4.

radmelon
2012-05-01, 06:54 PM
Well, in that case I guess I'll call life. Someone's gonna need to put you fools back together after you blow yourselves up.

Elfstone
2012-05-01, 09:05 PM
I refuse to participate in a speculatory and immature "dibs" calling...
/superior air

"I would have called life after Travel's post, but thought better of it."

radmelon
2012-05-01, 09:21 PM
Well, I also had a secondary motive for calling life. And it rhymes with spanimate spobject. :smallamused:

Story Time
2012-05-01, 11:00 PM
...generally speaking, I really do not mind if there are incarnations of energies, fluids, and matters. As long as those entities do not possess any themes relative to deities, I'll probably be able to play the game.


:smallfrown:

Welknair
2012-05-01, 11:04 PM
...generally speaking, I really do not mind if there are incarnations of energies, fluids, and matters. As long as those entities do not possess any themes relative to deities, I'll probably be able to play the game.


:smallfrown:

I can assure you that there will be a stark lack of divinity present in my game. /'notherhint

SamBurke
2012-05-01, 11:18 PM
I can assure you that there will be a stark lack of divinity present in my game. /'notherhint

Someone's gotten sloppy.

If we're calling it... well, all the good ones are taken... WAIIITTTTT.

We have life, but not MOVEMENT.

If there's an Element of Movement, I totes call it.

Story Time
2012-05-01, 11:52 PM
I can assure you that there will be a stark lack of divinity present in my game.

I'm grateful, then. :smallsmile:

TravelLog
2012-05-02, 12:52 AM
Damn right there are no gods, for we are as SEXY SHOELESS GODS OF WAR FORCES OF THE UNIVERSE. #powertrippingtothemax

Welknair
2012-05-02, 12:58 AM
I'm grateful, then. :smallsmile:
If possible, I'd like to avoid any potential conflicts with religious individuals. I've had enough of that playing D&D.


Damn right there are no gods, for we are as SEXY SHOELESS GODS OF WAR FORCES OF THE UNIVERSE. #powertrippingtothemax
That IS a side effect... That, and suddenly questioning our fundamental assumptions about the way the world works.

jojolagger
2012-05-02, 01:29 PM
But just in case, I call Time.

:smallamused: check my first post. You're a lot late.

TravelLog
2012-05-02, 02:45 PM
:smallamused: check my first post. You're a lot late.
I don't see anything beyond references to chronofragging, which hardly constitutes calling it. :smallsmile:

But if you MUST, I'll take Gravity.

jojolagger
2012-05-02, 03:51 PM
I don't see anything beyond references to chronofragging, which hardly constitutes calling it. :smallsmile:

But if you MUST, I'll take Gravity.

post #10 of this thread :smallamused:

radmelon
2012-05-02, 03:58 PM
I really want more info, just to see if I can understand the game.

Also, I call time.

For reference.

Welknair
2012-05-02, 03:59 PM
post #10 of this thread :smallamused:

Wow, I had completely forgotten about that. Smoooth. Many and few, few and many.

Welknair
2012-05-07, 11:11 AM
I had very low attendance this weekend (Just my crazy-player, and one of my less-crazy ones), so we ended up playing Fourthland the first time. We tested out some of the class-things and they seem to work pretty well. I need to change some mechanics involving how physical matter is dealt with, but things are shaping up nicely.

Using my funky physics, I set up a really peculiar world. the world is an inverted sphere, with everything along the inside. Gravity is conferred by a thin layer of 11th-charged material far inside the ground. In the middle of this sphere is a large, opaque sphere. Between the sphere and the ground above/below orbits another sphere, this one possessing gargantuan quantities of 9th (Light). When it passes behind the opaque sphere, an area of the world is covered in shadow (Night).

My players (especially the crazy one) immediately jumped to a number of ideas:

1. Dig down to the "Bedrock level" to harvest all the gravity-conveying material. Because trololol.

2. Make towers that extend to the limit of the gravitational pull of the ground (There is a limit, so the middle area is largely without gravity) and then jump from one tower to another. Or tie ropes from the towers and pull yourself along.

3. Parkour onto the sun. Long story.

4. Colonize the center orb.

5. Calibrate a jump such that the apex is right where the gravitational pull ends. Possibly leave a leg inside the pull, then pull up when you're at zero momentum. Float there. Possibly have a buddy give you a gentle push. Snipe at will.

6. Use 11th to make tiny gravity-stones and try too dislodge the sun from its orbit.

7. "How large is the sun?" Steal the sun.

8. "We have a moon too, right?" Steal the moon.


....

WHAT HAVE I MADE??

radmelon
2012-05-07, 12:31 PM
I warned you about PCs bro, I told you dog!


also, 'Parkour onto the sun' would be a great name for a band.

SamBurke
2012-05-09, 10:46 AM
Epic! So world building is pretty much just as free as normal?

Welknair
2012-05-09, 01:19 PM
Epic! So world building is pretty much just as free as normal?

If not moreso! My funky phsyics are very flexible! And as always, if you can't find a way to do it with the rules you're given, GMs are always free to add or tweak things so that they can. "The story comes first" is of course a great motto when it comes to designing these games.

SamBurke
2012-05-10, 12:38 PM
Good, good... We know a bit more. 9, light, is helpful.

Any dates you could give us?

Welknair
2012-05-10, 01:10 PM
Good, good... We know a bit more. 9, light, is helpful.

Any dates you could give us?

Fourth of July is Independence Day.
January 1st is the first day of the year.
December 32nd is when Santa comes.

(In all seriousness, IRL has been a bit hectic lately, and I've found myself with less time to work than usual. Hopefully things will clear up soon. As is, my system seems to be quite playable.. Just requires more content, some tweaks, and rules for inanimate matter types. Assuming things clear up, a month? Copyright-friend is trying to self-publish a short story to test it out.)

Story Time
2012-05-10, 01:16 PM
Copyright-friend is trying to self-publish a short story to test it out.

Um...Welknair...it's your system. You assemble the manual. You sign it. You date it. You send the copy in to the Library of Congress if you want. No one else should be involved. :smallfrown:

To put it bluntly, no one should be able to write any-thing about it until you've established your copy-right first. That's the point. If so-and-so down the street publishes the material first, the judge will see them as the originator, not you.

Welknair
2012-05-10, 01:38 PM
Um...Welknair...it's your system. You assemble the manual. You sign it. You date it. You send the copy in to the Library of Congress if you want. No one else should be involved. :smallfrown:

To put it bluntly, no one should be able to write any-thing about it until you've established your copy-right first. That's the point. If so-and-so down the street publishes the material first, the judge will see them as the originator, not you.

His short-story is entirely unrelated to Fourthland. He's never actually copyrighted or published something before, so he's trying it with an original idea of his (It IS his idea) to figure out how it works before we try it through with mine. I WILL be the one that submits the copyright for Fourthland. I'm actively doing a bit of solo-research about the topic, as well. Don't worry, I don't plan to let anyone publish anything about my system before I do. Thank you for the concern :smallsmile:

Story Time
2012-05-10, 01:46 PM
Oh, good! That makes so much more sense. :smallbiggrin: I'm relieved.

Welknair
2012-05-10, 01:56 PM
Oh, good! That makes so much more sense. :smallbiggrin: I'm relieved.

:smallbiggrin: I may be entirely inexperienced in this domain, but I have a little common sense!

Side Note: I now have a registered account at www.copyright.gov! I'm currently reading about online copyright methods.

Edit: It looks like I'll be wanting to "Preregister" the idea, as the work is not yet completed. I think that ought to let me talk more freely about the topic. Sadly preregistration costs $115 that I don't have..

Elfstone
2012-05-10, 04:45 PM
You could kick start it? Eventually, if you want to go into production, you totally should. Have you looked into making a site?

Welknair
2012-05-10, 06:45 PM
I've made simple websites before, as well as set up my own forums. I was planning to for my game at some point.

And a Kickstarter.. That's a really good idea. I don't know what I'd be allowed to say about it here, though. Besides *Winkwink*Fourthland Kickstarter*Winkwink*. I'd probably want to talk to mods about it. I've already done a bit of discussion with them about donation, but I'm not sure what the verdict on this would be.

TravelLog
2012-05-10, 10:33 PM
A month or more?! GAH! If I pledge to the kickstarter can we start sooner? :smallsmile:

Elfstone
2012-05-10, 10:44 PM
A month or more?! GAH! If I pledge to the kickstarter can we start sooner? :smallsmile:

I don't think thats how we should do this... (http://mexfiles.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/11-bribery.jpg)

Considering the amount of Kickstart attention that OoTS was given on the forums, there should be no problems with a Fourthland one.

And I checked, the URL seems to be unclaimed.... (www.fourthland.com)

Welknair
2012-05-11, 12:47 AM
I did a lot of looking into Kickstarter, but I'm a little concerned that it is affected by taxes and requires you to list the contact information of a "Business" on your Amazon account. Little bit afraid of IRS troubles that could result. I'm sure it's alright, and I'll likely still set one up, but I want to do a bit more research first.

Welknair
2012-05-13, 04:11 PM
RANDOM UPDATES:

1. We did not play Fourthland this weekend. We started Grimtooth's Dungeon of Doom, though. I think the total death count was in the 30s.

2. I am doing more research into the business requirement of Kickstarters. I have submitted a help request on the topic.

3. My copyright-friend has talked me out of Preregistering, given that it doesn't actually do much and it has such a large cost. The new plan is to publish and copyright the first draft in increments, going through the process for each separately. In the long run, this will likely be cheaper.

4. I plan to claim that domain very soon. I've dabbled in web design and know some people that do it for a living. I'll likely set up my own forums there, though they won't be terribly active for a while still.

5. Sending a PM to Roland about whether or not I can post a link to a Kickstarter here.

Here it is, word for word:

I apologize for having to trouble you again, but I have another question about the status of donations/links to where things could be purchased. We have discussed this previously, and I don't mean to be redundant, so I'll keep it short.

For my WIP-game Fourthland, could I include a simple Kickstarter link at the bottom of the OP? It'd be a single word "Kickstarter", with the hyperlink. No advertisements, coercions or anything of that sort. If this is not acceptable, is there any way for me to notify followers of my thread as to the existence of a Kickstarter for the game? Would it be alright to PM interested individuals the link? PM them that there IS a kickstarter, but not supply the link? What, if anything, is acceptable?

Secondly, upon the hypothetical completion of said game, what would I be allowed to say regarding its ability to be purchased? Pretty much the same list of questions as above, starting with a single-word link to where it could be bought, without any form of coercement or advertisement to do so, ending with PMs without links sent to interested individuals.

Thank you for your time.


6. More work on game-phsyics, primarily how weight, breaking, and supports work.

7. Consideration about one of my original design goals that I forgot to mention, and one that is VERY RELEVANT given the section of this thread: "Homebrew-ability". The property of a game that allows homebrew to be created for it. I want my game to very much encourage homebrew, and I've seen many games that do and don't do so. For example, D&D 3.5e is obviously quite homebrew-able. 4e, not so much (Though Surrealistik does make some decent stuff). This is because it is more difficult to create classes, which were always the most popular topic of homebrew. Exalted is another example of something that's difficult to homebrew for. What're you going to make? You can make side-charms, or martial arts styles, but that's about it.

In my game, you'll be able to (And encouraged to, if you have the capacity) homebrew the falling, among others: Shapes (Class-things. I expect tons of these.), Alchemies and Masteries (*Sinister Laughter*), Creatures (Why of course!), Materials, and finally Energies (That's right. You can add your own.),

SamBurke
2012-05-13, 05:45 PM
Add my own?

http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/me-gusta-me-gusta-l.png

Welknair
2012-05-13, 06:14 PM
Add my own?

http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/me-gusta-me-gusta-l.png

Why of course you can! Even if I didn't decide to specifically encourage it, I'm pretty sure people like you guys would add them anyways. I'm going to include a couple example "Extra Energies" and suggest that advanced groups choose four Extras from those that I include and those that others make to mix things up, so each game world is a bit different.

SamBurke
2012-05-13, 06:16 PM
Why of course you can! Even if I didn't decide to specifically encourage it, I'm pretty sure people like you guys would add them anyways. I'm going to include a couple example "Extra Energies" and suggest that advanced groups choose four Extras from those that I include and those that others make to mix things up, so each game world is a bit different.

That's cool! It'd make each game of Fourthland just that much more different.

Question is, what about the consequences of new energies? Because you're going to be working out how the 12 you have effect the world, but not necessarily the ones they come up with.

Welknair
2012-05-13, 06:19 PM
That's cool! It'd make each game of Fourthland just that much more different.

Question is, what about the consequences of new energies? Because you're going to be working out how the 12 you have effect the world, but not necessarily the ones they come up with.

That IS an interesting point, and as you say, one that I cannot fully predict the outcome of. It'll be up to the Muse to decide what energies to include and to think about how they'll interact with each other and the main 12. I think some interesting things should result.

radmelon
2012-05-13, 06:57 PM
(That's right. You can add your own.),


Add my own?

http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/me-gusta-me-gusta-l.png

I am imagining entire galaxies burning right now. Welknair, I hope you realize what you've done. :smallcool:

SamBurke
2012-05-13, 07:14 PM
I am imagining entire galaxies burning right now. Welknair, I hope you realize what you've done. :smallcool:

I don't think he could.

Especially not after I messed with his 13th orientations, Intent.

WHICH IS SO MINE. I claim Intent (think emotion/purpose/consciousness?) as my personal Energy.

Elfstone
2012-05-13, 07:16 PM
Well hell, what about the Lanterns? Will and anger as energies?

radmelon
2012-05-13, 07:18 PM
I don't think he could.

Especially not after I messed with his 13th orientations, Intent.

WHICH IS SO MINE. I claim Intent (think emotion/purpose/consciousness?) as my personal Energy.

Dibs on Good/Heroism/Protaganistic energy. The power of how important something is, plot-wise. Or Hat energy, that would be cool...

Welknair
2012-05-13, 08:16 PM
1. Keep in mind the number of the original 12 that you still don't know. Something like what you're thinking up maaay already exist.
2. We won't be using Extras in our playtest
3. I am taking the advice of my copyright friend about the incremental publishing. It won't be long before I'm ready to start writing the first increment, which should be sufficient for the first playtest with you guys.
4. Given the incremental, I don't need the 115, but rather 35 for each increment. I have enough to fund the first increment.
5. I got word back from the Kickstarter customer-service and they say that I do NOT need a business liscense, which is what I thought. It should be alright for me to make a Kickstarter. But..
6. I'm going to wait until I see the results of the first increment before I set up the Kickstarter.
7. Still no word back from Roland.

Story Time
2012-05-13, 08:24 PM
...designs...and arts...and stuff...

Amechra
2012-05-13, 11:09 PM
Guys, you are thinking in far too prosaic a way, my friends.

I call dibs on the 14th, Narrative Inertia.

And on the 15th, Flavor, because seriously, being able to make the sun taste like cherries is win.

Welknair
2012-05-13, 11:41 PM
Dibs on Good/Heroism/Protaganistic energy. The power of how important something is, plot-wise.

Guys, you are thinking in far too prosaic a way, my friends.

I call dibs on the 14th, Narrative Inertia.

And on the 15th, Flavor, because seriously, being able to make the sun taste like cherries is win.
I.. I am in awe. I am continually amazed by the sheer awesome-ness of you guys. SPOILER: The 16th Energy is 'Stache of Authority. SUPERSPOILER: They're all secretly Tyler Durden.


...designs...and arts...and stuff...
Well, I used to be very good friends with an extremely talented artist that I was hoping to draw the majority of the artwork but.. IRL things came up and that is looking less likely. Perhaps I should make a post in the Arts and Craft section? For the first release pictures aren't required, but at some point I would like them.

Amechra
2012-05-14, 12:40 AM
I love that movie so much; therefor, Mayhem is the 19th energy.

jojolagger
2012-05-14, 12:42 AM
Bah, 16th is best. Motivation. :smallamused:

Story Time
2012-05-14, 06:22 AM
Well, I used to be very good friends with an extremely talented artist that I was hoping to draw the majority of the artwork but.. IRL things came up and that is looking less likely. Perhaps I should make a post in the Arts and Craft section? For the first release pictures aren't required, but at some point I would like them.

...artists, if smart, will want a contract ( verbal agreement, minimum ) that a percentage of the profit goes to them based on the small amount of their art which is attached to the manual...

Welknair
2012-05-14, 08:20 AM
...artists, if smart, will want a contract ( verbal agreement, minimum ) that a percentage of the profit goes to them based on the small amount of their art which is attached to the manual...

I was under the impression that that was the way that things usually went.. Hmm.. I need to do some research about what reasonable percentages are. Though I suppose those physics ought to come first.

Story Time
2012-05-14, 08:41 AM
I need to do some research about what reasonable percentages are. Though I suppose those physics ought to come first.

From the perspective of a Publishing House, first-time authors usually have an eight percent portion of the profit for royalties. ...if they ever see it. Second-time authors can or should receive ten percent. Above that, anything to fifteen percent can be considered normal.

First-time artists...? I'll say two to five. Second-time, five to ten. ...and might not rise higher than that. Twelve at the most, maybe?

You as the publisher, can do what-ever you want. And if you are kind ( and prompt! can not stress this enough! ) with those residuals, the artists should be kind and consistent for you.

Some artists like the idea of a publisher buying the art rather than receiving residuals / royalties. However, residuals allow a non-famous artist to receive consistent payment, even if small.

Welknair
2012-05-14, 09:00 AM
From the perspective of a Publishing House, first-time authors usually have an eight percent portion of the profit for royalties. ...if they ever see it. Second-time authors can or should receive ten percent. Above that, anything to fifteen percent can be considered normal.

First-time artists...? I'll say two to five. Second-time, five to ten. ...and might not rise higher than that. Twelve at the most, maybe?

You as the publisher, can do what-ever you want. And if you are kind ( and prompt! can not stress this enough! ) with those residuals, the artists should be kind and consistent for you.

Some artists like the idea of a publisher buying the art rather than receiving residuals / royalties. However, residuals allow a non-famous artist to receive consistent payment, even if small.

That makes sense. Originally I was intending to do self-publishing via the Amazon Createspace, though I'm not entirely sure now. IIRC, the Createspace gave 60% profit to the author. The downside is that without a proper publisher or editor, it is very unlikely the book will ever find its way to bookstore shelves. Then again, most of my readers are finding out about it online.. I'm not entirely sure what to make of that quite yet.

I also understand the residual v single-price dichotomy. And I would of course want to treat my artist(s) well if I make it that far. Talented artists are difficult to come by.

radmelon
2012-05-14, 09:04 AM
Bah, 16th is best. Motivation. :smallamused:

What about Laughter, Kindness, Generosity, Honesty, Loyalty, Magic...
I have a great and terrible Idea...
http://images.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw4826-1336252812982990.jpg

Story Time
2012-05-14, 09:11 AM
...I should really stop...I really should...


[...]Createspace gave 60% profit to the author.

You are the author and publisher. You take all of the profit.

That profit is then divided into taxes, royalties, residuals, and funds for further publishing, at your personal discretion.



[...]most of my readers are finding out about it online..

Welknair has access to the Giant In The Playground Forums fan-base, as well as any word-of-mouth which spreads from one forum to another. Now...I don't like the idea of stealing fans, of course. That probably won't happen, but with the Information Age and the Internet as they are, you don't have to sell books to stores!



Talented artists are difficult to come by.

Yes... I have seen publishing executives rip out the metaphorical hearts of optimistic, eager, and talented artists. It was disgusting. Artists of talent should be recognized and their noble craft should be respected. They should also be paid appropriately.


On a personal note? I would never use Amazon. Unethical business practices go on there. ...not every level, but they are visible.

Welknair
2012-05-14, 09:25 AM
What about Laughter, Kindness, Generosity, Honesty, Loyalty, Magic...
I have a great and terrible Idea...
http://images.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw4826-1336252812982990.jpg
:smalleek:


...I should really stop...I really should...



You are the author and publisher. You take all of the profit.

That profit is then divided into taxes, royalties, residuals, and funds for further publishing, at your personal discretion.




Welknair has access to the Giant In The Playground Forums fan-base, as well as any word-of-mouth which spreads from one forum to another. Now...I don't like the idea of stealing fans, of course. That probably won't happen, but with the Information Age and the Internet as they are, you don't have to sell books to stores!




Yes... I have seen publishing executives rip out the metaphorical hearts of optimistic, eager, and talented artists. It was disgusting. Artists of talent should be recognized and their noble craft should be respected. They should also be paid appropriately.


On a personal note? I would never use Amazon. Unethical business practices go on there. ...not every level, but they are visible.

If I have this straight (Which I likely don't) the Publisher is the person or group that manages the printing and distribution of the work. I don't exactly have a printing press at my disposal. If I wish to print this, I need a publisher. The Createspace allows for "Self Publishing" where Amazon effectively acts as the publisher, printing the books on demand. This raises another interesting question, though... Should I go through the effort to get it printed? Or would it be better to only sell it as a pdf or somesuch?

By now hopefully it is apparent that I am not a cold and ruthless executive at a corporation. I actually have a concience and would care about anyone working for/with me to create this game. Anyone aiding me (with art or otherwise) will get fair dues. As-is, I'm probably going to include acknowledgements to all you guys that are posting on this thread consistently. Of course artists or anyone else that contributes would be paid a reasonable amount.

Story Time
2012-05-14, 09:34 AM
If I thought that you were cold and ruthless, executive or other-wise, I would not help you.


There is only one kind of self publishing. That is when the author publishes the manual. I would...sincerely suggest searching for a publishing house located in or near your local area. It...it's so much easier and simpler to get an answer from a face or a voice than from a computer screen.

...and if they're trying to hide some-thing, it will be more easy to tell.


...by selling the books your-self, even if you are not able to do so the first time, no one will be able to hide costs, purchases, or expenses from you.


Presentation Document Format... Is a quick, if dangerous, way to make profit. As a publishing medium it is dangerous due to the easy replication of data known as copying. However, if you truly wish to burn Compact Disks with the file on it, along with any other material that you would like, this is an effective method of generating an income.

It is also possible to simply distribute the file, but I can not recommend this method for two reasons: First, the above data-replication note. Second, an enormously immense amount of users forget to back-up what they purchase. This would necessitate that you, or some-one, would have to keep records of all sales for decades...just to provide quality customer service.

Welknair
2012-05-14, 09:44 AM
If I thought that you were cold and ruthless, executive or other-wise, I would not help you.


There is only one kind of self publishing. That is when the author publishes the manual. I would...sincerely suggest searching for a publishing house located in or near your local area. It...it's so much easier and simpler to get an answer from a face or a voice than from a computer screen.

...and if they're trying to hide some-thing, it will be more easy to tell.


...by selling the books your-self, even if you are not able to do so the first time, no one will be able to hide costs, purchases, or expenses from you.

This makes sense. I'll look into finding local publishing houses. I- *Insert google-research here*

Well, I WAS under the impression that getting a proper publisher costed a deal of money. My google-fu didn't return that answer. Huh. If it does require a sum of money, as previously mentioned, I don't have much right now and am quite averse to taking loans. A quick search also returned a nice little list of local publishing houses. Taking a closer look now.

Swordsageedit:

Presentation Document Format... Is a quick, if dangerous, way to make profit. As a publishing medium it is dangerous due to the easy replication of data known as copying. However, if you truly wish to burn Compact Disks with the file on it, along with any other material that you would like, this is an effective method of generating an income.

It is also possible to simply distribute the file, but I can not recommend this method for two reasons: First, the above data-replication note. Second, an enormously immense amount of users forget to back-up what they purchase. This would necessitate that you, or some-one, would have to keep records of all sales for decades...just to provide quality customer service.

I was thinking something akin to GURPS's system of online purchases. If you haven't used it before, they have an automoated database of accounts with information about what books each account has bought, allow re-download as long as you're logged in. I happen to have a bit of experience in PHP/MySQL, and know some people that are much better than me that would be willing to help with such an endeavour. The risk of copying WOULD be a problem, though...

Story Time
2012-05-14, 09:49 AM
It is possible to copy-right data on a compact disk, provided that concessions are made for the file format ( P.D.F. in this case ). Doing this would allow Welknair to copy-right and distribute the content with minimal cost for a first run. Later, paper manuals could be produced for those who like the feel of tree in their hands.

...I know that I prefer paper... :smallredface:


...really. I'm only listing options. Publishing houses usually require contracts and the fine-print in those can some-times eat first-time authors whole.

Please be careful. :smallfrown:


1

An Internet-based account system is a possible one. It is a good idea, in some senses. I...don't think that my conscience will allow me to encourage it, though, for obvious reasons.

Welknair
2012-05-14, 09:54 AM
It is possible to copy-right data on a compact disk, provided that concessions are made for the file format ( P.D.F. in this case ). Doing this would allow Welknair to copy-right and distribute the content with minimal cost for a first run. Later, paper manuals could be produced for those who like the feel of tree in their hands.

...I know that I prefer paper... :smallredface:


...really. I'm only listing options. Publishing houses usually require contracts and the fine-print in those can some-times eat first-time authors whole.

Please be careful. :smallfrown:

Hmm.. That's a decent idea. As it was, I was thinking that it would be very odd to go through the publishing process before the entire work is done.. The reason that I'm worrying about all this so early is because I want your guys's opinions about the game so far without risking someone whisking away the ideas. I'm going to claim that domain pretty soon, and when I do, I'm considering setting up a private forum, where only designated members can see or post ANYTHING. I trust you guys implicitely, and it would be very nice if I could get your feedback without having to go through publishing and copyright first (Though I know I will have to eventually). Thoughts on that?

Story Time
2012-05-14, 10:13 AM
"...never trust any-one that you have not met in person. Ever."


Role-play Games have editions... There is nothing wrong with making a First Edition, copy-righting it, and publishing it for review. Those that you choose to trust will share their opinions about it and then a Second Edition can be produced. ...repeat the cycle to infinity.

I... I acknowledge the seemingly kind heart that Welknair has. I appreciate it. But with the ease with which any and all data can be accessed by any person intelligent or experienced enough to penetrate the security, I can not recommend allowing functionary strangers access to your material without achieving that proof of copy-right first.

...I say all this, of course, so that you and your game concepts will be protected.

Welknair
2012-05-14, 10:29 AM
"...never trust any-one that you have not met in person. Ever."


Role-play Games have editions... There is nothing wrong with making a first edition, copy-righting it, and publishing it for review. Those that you choose to trust will share their opinions about it and then a Second Edition can be produced. ...repeat the cycle to infinity.

I... I acknowledge the seemingly kind hearth that Welknair has. I appreciate it. But with the ease with which any and all data can be accessed by any person intelligent or experienced enough to penetrate the security, I can not recommend allowing functionary strangers access to your material without achieving that proof of copy-right first.

...I say all this, of course, so that you and your game concepts will be protected.

Hmm... :smallsigh: I wish the world were less power/money-hungry. Then everyone could freely share their ideas and collaborate to produce amazing things with remarkable efficiency. Well, that's just me being an idealist.

Back to the first-draft publishing plan, I suppose. Then perhaps instead of sending copy-able documents out to even select individuals, I get the main feedback through our previously-discussed playtest? In that, I'd describe the essential rules.

Story Time
2012-05-14, 10:41 AM
Yes, my friend. Greed is the enemy.

...on a more happy note, once you have the proof of copy-right, you can do almost what-ever you would like. The forae become an option. Publishing houses become options. Distribution can become, essentially, as you would like it.

Now, again, copy-right is affirmed upon the establishment of the copy ( the manual ). Welknair does not have to register that copy with the Library of Congress ( or what other national governments use ). But the registry is extremely helpful if an issue should ever be taken to a court.

...and...in this my personal bias begins to show. I would want to read a document made by Welknair...not the masses who crowd the Internet. ...no offense is meant to any-one else in this thread, but that is my true perspective.

SamBurke
2012-05-14, 10:55 AM
Wow. This discussion got really sad and personal all of a sudden.

Summon Pinkie III!

RANDOMNESS! http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/29300000/Pinkie-pinkie-pie-29355664-360-360.jpg

Ok. We hope everything goes well. We are rooting, praying, advising, and all that stuff, to ensure that your project goes normally.

Not to be pushy or anything, but can we go back to blowing up universes?

Welknair
2012-05-14, 12:53 PM
Not to be pushy or anything, but can we go back to blowing up universes?

Of course! Back to the fun stuff!

You guys know the suggestion a while ago about being embodying the energies? Well I did a bit of work on how they operate.

Also, I have been struggling with how romantic relationships operate within Fourthland, given that my previous solution to deaths and reproduction kind of made them unecessary. Well, I found a way to work romantic-potential in. And then I kept going, like I tend to. I think I may have accidentally created a lifecycle system more complicated than that of the Trolls.

radmelon
2012-05-14, 01:02 PM
Hemospectrum and all? Impressive.
:smallfurious: :smallamused: :smallmad: :smallannoyed: :smallsigh: :smallsmile: :smallbiggrin: :smallwink: :smallyuk: :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

Welknair
2012-05-14, 01:54 PM
Hemospectrum and all? Impressive.
:smallfurious: :smallamused: :smallmad: :smallannoyed: :smallsigh: :smallsmile: :smallbiggrin: :smallwink: :smallyuk: :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

I'm original enough to avoid direct plagiarism of that sort - I don't have colored bloods.
Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, Tock, Tock, Tock, Tock
"What's blood?"
Click, Click, Click, Click, Clack, Clack, Clack, Clack
But it IS a complicated and, I believe, unique system. If anything, it reminds me more of the Slaad lifecycle. But again, it isn't exactly analagous to that either.
Arc, Arc, Arc, Arc, Circle, Circle, Circle, Circle

TravelLog
2012-05-14, 02:03 PM
Damnit it Sam! Now I want cake.

SamBurke
2012-05-14, 03:24 PM
Damnit it Sam! Now I want cake.

Since Pink is a part of Red, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealMenWearPink) and red is the color of gingers, I doubt Pinkie can really be damned that way. :smallbiggrin:

I guess you can mess around with 4th, though! :smallwink:

Oh, since you say you want cake.... Try the MMMM Cake. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wrrN2DLO7M)
:biggrin:

Welknair
2012-05-16, 12:33 PM
NEWS UPDATE: I've settled on a plan for copyright, publishing and all that. I am actively working on the last essential bits (Crafting items, atm), as well as a chapter layout. Compilation for a first draft will begin very soon, if all goes well.

SamBurke
2012-05-16, 06:28 PM
YES. Let's do it!

Story Time
2012-05-16, 06:33 PM
Progress is progress. Which I am glad for. :smallsmile:

TravelLog
2012-05-16, 11:26 PM
Huzzah! Progress is being made!

Welknair
2012-05-16, 11:46 PM
I think I got the basics of weapons and armor! On to misc. stuff! PROGRESSPROGRESSPROGRESS.

In OTHER news, I recently stumbled upon this wonderful web show (http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/show/extra-credits) hosted on Penny Arcade that no one previously had the decency to point out to me. It is like a show of me, once a week for ten minutes. Seriously, these guys' insights are wonderful, and the exact sort of thing I think about. I've already watched 12 or so, out of the near-100.

jojolagger
2012-05-16, 11:50 PM
In OTHER news, I recently stumbled upon this wonderful web show (http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/show/extra-credits) hosted on Penny Arcade that no one previously had the decency to point out to me. It is like a show of me, once a week for ten minutes. Seriously, these guys' insights are wonderful, and the exact sort of thing I think about. I've already watched 12 or so, out of the near-100.
Which reminds me, I need to start watching those again, because I'm not up to date on them. Thought I have a roughly 3 season head start on you. :smalltongue:

Welknair
2012-05-17, 12:22 AM
Which reminds me, I need to start watching those again, because I'm not up to date on them. Thought I have a roughly 3 season head start on you. :smalltongue:

I'm willing to bet that I'll catch up pretty quickly!

SamBurke
2012-05-17, 02:25 PM
I bet I can beat both of you.

Twenty internets?

Welknair
2012-05-17, 02:35 PM
I bet I can beat both of you.

Twenty internets?

I don't know if I have that many internets to wager.. To my memory, I only have something in the vicinity of 5.

Random idea: In the future, an "Internet" will be an actual form of currency.

SamBurke
2012-05-17, 02:51 PM
I don't either, but still...

Eight.

Welknair
2012-05-17, 03:04 PM
I don't either, but still...

Eight.

Hmm.. Yeah, I think I'm going to have to fold. Can't go risking all of my beloved 'nets, now can I? :smallwink:

Trying to figure out crafting and inventory. I have a couple of problems here, namely that I don't want this to turn into Minecraft: The RPG (Wish I HAVE considered, but decided against due to the difficulty modeling 3-d shapes in TTRPGs). Just with the Energies, I have a heavier emphasis on resources than most other games I've seen. Now for Crafting, I need to figure out what to do about raw materials. Right now, I have recipes calling for specific combinations of natural resources. This is too remincent of Minecraft/Terraria for my tastes. At the same time, though, I don't want to totally discard the raw material costs, like D&D 3.5 did. Especially since I have an entire shape based around collecting the raw materials required... I'll have to figure something creative out. /randomrant

Xechon
2012-05-17, 03:29 PM
Inventory should totally be a sylladex. Homestuck all the way.

For crafting, minecraft-esque seems the best way to go, if I think of anything that would break every law of physics, I'll let you know.

Also, random idea: (insert alien guy here) anti-elements.

SamBurke
2012-05-17, 03:33 PM
Oooh. Sounds interesting.

Still waiting on that timeline, though.

Welknair
2012-05-17, 03:47 PM
Inventory should totally be a sylladex. Homestuck all the way.
I've considered it, but as they similarly decided in the Homestuck D20 RPG, sylladexes are far to complicated to simulate in a TTRPG. Not to mention I try to stick to original ideas. I'll likely still end up with something pocket-dimension-esque...


For crafting, minecraft-esque seems the best way to go, if I think of anything that would break every law of physics, I'll let you know.
I'm having problems coming up with a better option. Hmm.. My main issue is that I fear that players will end up playing my game as if it were Minecraft, which it isn't. I don't want players spending all their time mining and building stuff instead of adventuring.


Also, random idea: (insert alien guy here) anti-elements.

*Shifty look* Negative energies? That's ludicrous! There's no way that I've already created such things.. That'd be entirely crazy!

radmelon
2012-05-17, 06:30 PM
Well, instead of a minecraft crafting system, how about more of a crafting system based on the SBURBage Worlds (http://mspaforums.com/showthread.php?45062-SBURBage-Worlds-a-Homestuck-RPG-based-on-Savage-Worlds)system, which is a homestuck conversion for Savage Worlds. I liked how it handled inventory and item crafting.

Story Time
2012-05-17, 06:33 PM
...not so worried about anti-matter and negative energy. ...more concerned about anti-energy and negative matter.

Welknair
2012-05-18, 01:24 PM
Well, instead of a minecraft crafting system, how about more of a crafting system based on the SBURBage Worlds (http://mspaforums.com/showthread.php?45062-SBURBage-Worlds-a-Homestuck-RPG-based-on-Savage-Worlds)system, which is a homestuck conversion for Savage Worlds. I liked how it handled inventory and item crafting.

I think I'll be doing something similar. I've done a loooot of thinking about the topic, and talked to copyright-friend a bit, and we've added what will likely be one of the more defining and more confusing laws of my universe: "Shape does not confer function". These are abstract entities we're talking about, not just physical ones. You can make it shaped like a shovel, but that doesn't mean it'll work like a shovel. You can find a sword-shaped object, but unless it IS a sword, it won't work like one. Function is an objective attribute of the ENTITY, not the shape. Changing the shape of an entity doesn't change its nature.

This law allows me to be MUCH more free with my crafting system, while further enforcing the alien-ness of my game. Now I just need to find a way for normal people to be able to understand it.

Amechra
2012-05-18, 02:39 PM
Just explain it like this:

"A sword has a property; let's call it "Swordness", for lack of a better term.

An object with Swordness, no matter how it is shaped, is a sword. A fist imbued with this property will cut, and will stab, like a sword.

No matter how it is shaped, an object lacking Swordness does not function like a sword. This is an insurmountable barrier, unless you imbue an object with Swordness, which is done by imbuing the object with [Energy X], inflected to the 3rd degree."

In other words, just go through and have a section at the beginning explaining that function, and not form, is the name of the game we're playing.

I, for one, welcome the addition of sword-fists. Plus, you can have all the fun of saying:

"This functions like a sword and a particle accelerator. Yes, I know it looks like a fish, but screw you and your form-based logic."

Welknair
2012-05-18, 03:19 PM
Just explain it like this:

"A sword has a property; let's call it "Swordness", for lack of a better term.

An object with Swordness, no matter how it is shaped, is a sword. A fist imbued with this property will cut, and will stab, like a sword.

No matter how it is shaped, an object lacking Swordness does not function like a sword. This is an insurmountable barrier, unless you imbue an object with Swordness, which is done by imbuing the object with [Energy X], inflected to the 3rd degree."

In other words, just go through and have a section at the beginning explaining that function, and not form, is the name of the game we're playing.

I, for one, welcome the addition of sword-fists. Plus, you can have all the fun of saying:

"This functions like a sword and a particle accelerator. Yes, I know it looks like a fish, but screw you and your form-based logic."

My thoughts exactly. That is a superb way to explain it. My game just keeps getting wierder and wierder, doesn't it?

I'm curious to see how players unlike us will handle exposure to the game. You have to admit that we here aren't exactly normal, even for D&D players. In addition, my game keeps getting wierder and wierder (Read: More and more AWESOME). I have one more novel concept I'll be trying to introduce: Progressive Disclosure. Basically, new players are fed the mechanics and world in more managable bite-sized bits, deemed "Stages". If the gaming group picks things up quickly, they'll likely be able to get through the first few in the first session. You guys? You could almost certainly get through all eight in the first 10 minutes, and still be hungry for more. Because we're wierd-awesome like that. But this method of "Progressive Disclosure" should help new players not become immediately overwhelmed by how absolutely absurd and alien my game and world are. I have a friend of mine that I see quite a deal but have only told bits about my game, and I plan to use them to test this method very soon.

Edit: Oh, and on the topic of crafting: It'll be focused around, as you said, imbuing objects with the "-ness" of the desired objects. Thus crafting is concept-based instead of resource-based.

radmelon
2012-05-18, 03:59 PM
My brain is sputtering trying to deal with how awesome/hilarious this is. So many ideas come to mind.

Sword of +3 Swordness
Amulet of Sworditude
Disciple of Swordosity
Elemental plane of Sword

Fighter would be so happy.

jojolagger
2012-05-18, 04:25 PM
Interesting thoughts.
Armour-ness on a hair pin (because a hair pin that stops arrows in hilarious.
Club-ness on a sword (for bludgeoning someone to death with the edge of a sword).
Tent-ness on a pen (1d4 SAN damage.)
This is wonderful.

Amechra
2012-05-18, 05:38 PM
You know what? Let's go a step further.

You do not craft objects; instead, you craft Functions, which are then imbued at some later point. You can only Imbue a given Function once, and then the object will always have that function.

You can later remove a Function from an object.

I'm waiting for Tool-ness, so I can Imbue it in my fists (fixin' things like the fonz! Yeah!); or, more esoterically, Food-ness on a stick (hey, when you can make anything edible...), Window-ness on a wall (you can see through it.)

Hell, by reducing items down to Function, you can really be an artist... and your canvas could be your body.

Another idea... who needs tools to craft a metaphor or function? You could totally make a Shape based around rapid crafting by simply mixing and melding Function Components. And then maybe, eventually, refining a Function to the point that you can just use the Energy and ignore the actual Form. So you could chop someone in half with the very concept of Swordness, or nail up a wall with literally nothing more than a whim.

The funny thing is that this kinda crafting makes a crapton of sense to anyone who has ever looked at how Diablo made its random items, but with the random stuff you get being stuff you can use that item for, rather than adding fire or ice or whatever.

And you do realize that, the more we talk about this, this is the game I've been dreaming of?

And Progressive Disclosure is such a wonderful idea... it's the kinda thing I wish that DnD was designed to work with.
<hr>
Sorry for a light hi-jack, but I have an idea for something to do while we are waiting for Welknair to complete the copyright process...

I'm currently working on a quick PoS combining Risus and Nomic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic). Anyone want to use it to get in the mood?

TravelLog
2012-05-18, 05:59 PM
I think we're all overlooking something central to our existence. Bearness. Yes, now we too can have +1 Swords of Bearness, Fists of Bearness, and dare I say, Beards of Bearness.

Xechon
2012-05-18, 06:51 PM
Another idea. Sorry if you already have this.

Abstraction-based reality. Where saying "break a leg" is dangerous and "actions speak louder than words" is extremely obnoxious. And just make sure to never divide by zero.

SamBurke
2012-05-18, 09:14 PM
Season 3.

Also, I am right on the edge of another headsplode. Good save by explanations, though.

I have that horrible feeling this game will make me look like an idiot.

Welknair
2012-05-19, 01:00 PM
At first I was a little uncertain about the idea of the shape-doesn't-equal-function thing, but now I'm quite certain it will be AMAZING. Been doing a bit more work on the concept... *Maniacal laughter*

Abstraction-Based Reality: Hmm.. That's an interesting idea, but I'm not entirely sure how it'd fit into the scheme of everything else.. Mostly because so far, such idioms don't really exist in Fourthland. "What's a leg?" I may still work in something similar though. OH. Oh yeah. I almost forgot I intended too-- Why thank you for reminding me of that!

Amechra: The Nomic/Risus game. I.. I was toying around with ideas for.. GET OUT OF MY BRAINNNN. I've been juggling ideas around for nigh on a month and a half now for what would effectively be "Calvinball, the Tabletop RPG". It'd be a game made for homebrewers and game designers, where the laws of the world are defined as you go through play. I'd never heard of Nomic before, but it is GLORIOUS and exactly the type of thing I was thinking of. I hadn't posted about this game idea or done any real work on it due to IRL busy-ness and Fourthland finally rolling. I think it would be an amazing idea.

And I haven't even finished season one yet. :smallfrown:

Edit: The views. Guess what the views just passed last night?

ITS OVER FOUR THOUSAAAAAAAAND!

And now, for some hints:

How many wheels are there on a bike?

Five-eyed owl

10 degrees farenheit

Six people arguing

/overthints

radmelon
2012-05-19, 01:17 PM
By my reckoning:
2 = Movement
5 = wisdom
10 = fire
6 = chaos

That's what I got from it.

Amechra
2012-05-19, 01:28 PM
Oh, I can finish that up within a week.

The rules of one of the longest running Nomic games read like the law codes of a country, including defining citizenship.

Welknair
2012-05-19, 01:31 PM
The rules of one of the longest running Nomic games read like the law codes of a country, including defining citizenship.

:smalleek:

I really need to finish reading through Nomic.

SamBurke
2012-05-19, 01:41 PM
Actually owls are not technically wiser than any other creature. Welkanair, having a high IQ (as do most people on this form), would presumably know this.

Thus, we can clearly not choose the option in front of him. But, we also know that he's adept a tropes, since he can break them so well: thus, he could be pandering to the "owls are wise" idea from the start, and can clearly not choose the option near to us.

But, of course, we know this game IS about breaking expectations, so our expectations of wisdom mean we clearly cannot choose the option in front of him.

What did you say? I just got started!

The first point is true: it might be perception...?