ToB and updating melee classes

[Tvtyrant]

ToB introduces three new classes, which each roughly correspond to an existing core class. Swordsage=Rogue (Unarmed=Monk), Warblade=Fighter, and Crusader=Paladin. However the two (admittedly better than the Fighter, Paladin and Monk) other melee orientated classes were not given a real update. The Ranger and Barbarian were effectively left out (unless like some you consider them to have been merged into the other archetypes).

Are there any good homebrews that combines these two with ToB, or makes maneuvers a part of the classes?

[Terazul]

Yes, and also yes. (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update)

There's also a couple of ranged disciplines floating around the homebrew section.

[Tvtyrant]

Thank you kindly!

[Coidzor]

There's even Sublime Bards and Marshals, IIRC.

[gkathellar]

Sort through the Homebrewer's Extended Signature and you'll find dozens of ToB classes.

[sonofzeal]

Note that, with Tiger Claw, a Warblade can fill that "savage warrior" / "nature's warrior" archetype pretty well. A lot of the maneuvers in that field play well with dual-weilding, you get Scent at low level for pseudo-tracking, and there's a running theme of animalistic ferocity through the whole discipline. If Swordsage is a rogue replacement without getting Trapfinding, then Warblade can function as a Ranger or Barbarian replacement

[Tvtyrant]

Well, what I really wanted to salvage was rages and favored enemies as concepts. I was thinking something more unique (like having the ability to use any stance as a Barbarian, but only 1 at a time as part of a Rage), but just adding maneuvers works as well.

[gkathellar]

Well, what I really wanted to salvage was rages and favored enemies as concepts. I was thinking something more unique (like having the ability to use any stance as a Barbarian, but only 1 at a time as part of a Rage), but just adding maneuvers works as well.

If you take a look at the Warblade's maneuvers and stances, they actually do a fantastic job of approximating a rage that doesn't expire after 30-90 seconds (as well as other thematic aspects of the barbarian). Of particular note is Punishing Stance, which basically is rage

[Swooper]

The OP's question has been answered, so I'll throw this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212864) into the hat of Base Classes Updated With ToB Homebrew. :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

Well, what I really wanted to salvage was rages and favored enemies as concepts. I was thinking something more unique (like having the ability to use any stance as a Barbarian, but only 1 at a time as part of a Rage), but just adding maneuvers works as well.

The only way to do that would be to completely reinvent favored enemy anyway. :smalltongue:

[FMArthur]

Knowledge Devotion is what Favored Enemy should have been from the start. It's a feat and any class can take it, so that's easily ToB-ized. You get one creature type of your choice with the Knowledge you picked with the feat (you get one Knowledge in-class permanently as part of the benefit) plus what your class gives you. Crusaders have Religion for undead. Swordsages have Local and Nature for humanoids and a bunch of other things. Warblades only get Local.

If you want to focus on two or more creature types you can also just take the Education feat (ECS, PGtF, Gh; mostly the same benefit from each but prereqs vary between versions. ECS's is most recent and has no prereqs) for all knowledges in-class. ToB classes aren't dependent on their feats for power so it's not backbreaking to spend two feats on a Favored Enemy substitute that improves combat ability and makes you useful as an information resource.
1As for Barbarian... I honestly don't think it ever should have been its own class in the first place. It's Rage and filler. That's fine for an NPC warrior archetype but not a powerful hero on its own IMO. Basically what I'm saying is that the Rage feature is the only thing that makes the class its own; if you simply port it onto something else with full BAB and good hit dice, you will already have a Barbarian substitute ready to go.

Anyway, while the classic barbarian isn't really a 'martial artist' to fit in with ToB classes' fluff, very few of the maneuvers themselves from the Iron Heart, Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw disciplines actually embody anything more than displays of heroic might or reckless ferocity. Even White Raven stuff can suit a barbarian simply striking an inspiring figure in battle or using simplistic tactics that even wilderness savages would be using, and Diamond Mind is mostly about your force of will (something a classic barbarian hero archetype should have in spades). None of it is really dependent on formal, organized or deliberate training. It's just stuff you expect a fantasy hero to be able to do, barbarians included.

After giving Warblade Rage (and all its improvements) in exchange for your Intelligence-based class features, all you need to do is refluff the Warblade class a little and have it call disciplines mindsets. That's a barbarian for PCs.

[gomipile]

Favored enemy really isn't that bad, except for the whole Humanoids thing. Then again, I may only think that because the ranger I play is a Swift Hunter.

[FMArthur]

Oops! My post accidentally implied that, but I wasn't actually trying to say FE is really bad the way it plays. It's not amazing but it does its job. I just think that Knowledge Devotion fulfills the concept and the logic behind it much better. Being extra racist isn't what makes you good at hunting your Favored Enemy. A Frenzied Berserker hates everyone twice as much as you hate your Favored Enemy and he doesn't get Favored Enemy bonuses. Having specialized knowledge on the weak points of your kind of prey is something that could feasibly have been a class-specific talent. Hating them extra hard is not.

Favored Enemy makes sense to be knowledge-based and would create a more customizable dynamic if it were tied to the actual Knowledge skills like Knowledge Devotion. You can focus on the feature as much as you want to by maxing the skill and you have the option to put your skill ranks into knowing other kinds of creatures without weakening the ability into irrelevance. It costs you a lot to do so but not out of your direct combat power and actually gives you relevant insights on the subject due to having the Knowledge ranks.

[gomipile]

Oops! My post accidentally implied that, but I wasn't actually trying to say FE is really bad the way it plays. It's not amazing but it does its job. I just think that Knowledge Devotion fulfills the concept and the logic behind it much better. Being extra racist isn't what makes you good at hunting your Favored Enemy. A Frenzied Berserker hates everyone twice as much as you hate your Favored Enemy and he doesn't get Favored Enemy bonuses. Having specialized knowledge on the weak points of your kind of prey is something that could feasibly have been a class-specific talent. Hating them extra hard is not.

Favored Enemy makes sense to be knowledge-based and would create a more customizable dynamic if it were tied to the actual Knowledge skills like Knowledge Devotion. You can focus on the feature as much as you want to by maxing the skill and you have the option to put your skill ranks into knowing other kinds of creatures without weakening the ability into irrelevance. It costs you a lot to do so but not out of your direct combat power and actually gives you relevant insights on the subject due to having the Knowledge ranks.

Hmmm, Maybe if you gave the Ranger the ability to add one point of Wisdom bonus per 2 levels to all Knowledge checks, not stacking with Intelligence bonus. (So that you wouldn't get the full bonus to Knowledge from a 1-level dip, and so Intelligence isn't a damage-improving stat for a Ranger.) Oh, and give the ranger bonus skill points equal to (Wisdom bonus - Intelligence bonus) only usable for Knowledge skills which are tied to one or more creature types.

Given all that, you could feasibly give Knowledge Devotion as a free feat to level 1 Rangers in place of FE. Also, you should probably let the Knowledge Devotion bonus apply to skill checks relating to that creature type too. My ranger was able to sneak through an enemy city quite handily due in part to the Listen boost from Favored Enemy.

Edit: Also, you'd need a clear cut way for it to interact with Swift hunter, so as to keep the ability to Skirmish uncrittable creatures from that feat. You can Skirmish uncrittable creatures if you make a relevant Knowledge check with DC equal to their CR, maybe?

[Coidzor]

Favored Enemy makes sense to be knowledge-based and would create a more customizable dynamic if it were tied to the actual Knowledge skills like Knowledge Devotion. You can focus on the feature as much as you want to by maxing the skill and you have the option to put your skill ranks into knowing other kinds of creatures without weakening the ability into irrelevance. It costs you a lot to do so but not out of your direct combat power and actually gives you relevant insights on the subject due to having the Knowledge ranks.

Now that... That is a very interesting idea.