How to properly tank as a core-only monk?

[Tesla_pasta]

yeah. So, I rolled epic stats, and couldn't resist making a dwarf monk in our new 3.5 campaign.
As the party's only melee character, I need to fill the tank role as well as possible. what is the best way to max my survivability using core-only material? I've never played a monk past level 1 before, so I'm kinda clueless.

[DaMullet]

Get a Monk's Belt as soon as you can afford it; it gives you the AC and unarmed damage of a monk 5 levels higher, which is always handy when you're the only damage-dealer in the party. If you're the only melee character, I assume you have at least the normal complement of 1 divine and 1 arcane caster? Enlarge Person is your friend, as are both Bull's Strength and Owl's Wisdom (get your enhancement bonuses as items once you can afford it, of course). Stunning Fist is particularly helpful against anything with a circulatory system, and the high wisdom score makes it harder to save against. I recommend against weapons, except maybe getting some shuriken or sais made out of silver or cold iron. Above all, have fun with it; Monks have some of the most bizarre and out of place flavour in a Sword and Sorcery DnD world, so don't be afraid to just trust in the dice and go wild.

[Urpriest]

Survivability and tanking are different things, which are you primarily interested in?

[ericgrau]

I didn't think core monks had, um, AC.

But what you can do is flurry a half-dozen trips and since they're touch attacks there's a good chance that all or most of them will hit regardless of medium BAB. If it's a humanoid heavy campaign you could disarm too. If there are few foes you can grapple to keep the heat off your party while still fulfilling the roll as damage dealer. Other classes and hold down a foe better, but they also remove themself from the fight in terms of damage.

But if you meant stand in front and take hits while preventing foes from running past you... it could be done but you're really going to have a hard time. A monk needs to disable foes to protect not only the party but also himself or he'll feel the pain of his AC and so-so HP really fast.

A lot of buffs like mage armor don't hurt either.

Unarmed damage is pretty lousy and the monk's belt is expensive. I'd get a magic weapon instead. Save unarmed damage for stunning fists and grappling ONLY. But at medium BAB again I really hope you don't plan on standing in front of foes and taking hits while you try to deal damage. Now you'll start missing a lot too and it'll really get painful.

To protect a whole party I'd probably do a tripper/stunner: str, con, wis, dex, int, cha. Say a kama for most attacks to trip and unarmed only for the stunning fist. Late game get a ki focus kama to stun with your weapon.

[holywhippet]

Yeah, tanking is mostly the art of having a lot of AC to avoid getting hurt and a lot of HP to survive damage that gets through. Monks aren't really designed for either - your AC generally sucks and your HP aren't going to be especially great either.

If the rules didn't prohibit gaining more monk levels after multiclassing I'd have suggested a level in either sorcerer or wizard. That would let you cast mage armor which gives an impressive +4 bonus to AC and lasts for 1 hour per level. You could also back that up with the shield spell which gives another +4. but only lasts 1 minute per level.

You could try getting either or both as magical item triggers when you gain a few levels.

For survivability rather than tanking, when you can get enough levels and feats you can use spring attack to charge into melee range (thanks to the monk speed bonuses), attack in melee, then get out of range.

[Diarmuid]

Combat Expertise is never a bad idea, the Trip/Control aspect is definitely a good one as you're not likely to be able to keep bad guys interested in attacking you with your dmg output alone.

[TroubleBrewing]

As has already been suggested, a caster level or two never hurt anybody.

However, don't take them at 1st level. You want the best hit die possible.

[Swooper]

Just because no-one else has, inexplicably, said it yet...

1. Take Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes or whatever.
2. Try to tank in a serious fight.
3. Realise what a horrible idea that was.
4. Pack yourself neatly into an ogre's lunchbox.
5. Reroll as a druid.

:smalltongue:

[TroubleBrewing]

That's good advice, but it's not really conducive to the point of the thread.

[Flickerdart]

You will probably want to avoid grappling all together. When you're grappling, you're not tanking. That means Stunning Fist. Combat Reflexes is good if your Dexterity truly is epic, but you're not going to be Tripping anything, so take Disarm and use it to snag humanoid weapons, because let's face it, anything non-humanoid kills you anyway.

If you're the only melee, you can probably expect buffs. Buy a few Pearls of Power and you can expect more buffs. Enlarge Person is a good investment. Permanencied Greater Magic Fang on your Unarmed Strike is nice, but beware of dispels.

[Eldariel]

Have a Wizard on your party and hope/pray/beg for Mage Armor before every encounter; it's the only cost-efficient way of getting AC on a Monk and low levels, you kinda need AC for tanking. Get a Wand ASAP. Then hope//pray for Enlarge Person every fight. Provided you have 18 Strength, 18 Dex, 18 Con and 18 Wis, you're pretty well off; just maximize Strength (all level-ups, magic items, etc.) and focus on Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist and company (take Stunning Fist as bonus feat and Improved Grapple as a normal feat since, let's face it, it's not like you have many other things of note to take), and take Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike [Monster Manual] at first opportunity. Take Ability Focus: Stunning Fist [Monster Manual] later on and obviously, take Improved Trip as a bonus feat level 6 (since it's unlike you'll have 13 Int too for Combat Expertise, though it may be worth it if you can).

If your stats are truly epic (for high Cha in addition to 18 Str/Dex/Con/Wis) and your group allows it, you absolutely need Leadership on level 6 for the pet Wizard out of your own bucket, which will cover all the buffing needs you have. You'll be needing Greater Magic Fang/Greater Magic Weapon on 24/7 on your natural attacks on a regular basis starting from level 8 or so, and it won't hurt from level 5.


So yeah, in short:
- Lots of spells and magic items. Preferably you'll want a Wizard-or-Cleric (both, Enlarge Person and Mage Armor are available as Domain Spells to Cleric, and they know Greater Magic Weapon) specialized solely in buffing you, though Mage Armor and Greater Magic Fang/Weapon are 1 hour/level and thus eminently precastable and Enlarge Person is eventually Permanenciable (though that comes with problems in cities and such since now you're permanently Large). Could get one as a Cohort through Leadership.
- Preferably with Craft Wondrous Items-feat so you can eventually get your Bracers of Armor +8, Monk's Belt of Giant's Strength +6, Amulet of Con +6, Wis +6 & Natural Armor +5 (it only costs 1.5* the original cost to add an extra effect on an item), XXX of Flying, Boots of Speed, Cloak of Resistance +5, Gloves of Dex +6 & Helm of Teleportation reasonably (still costs you a fortune, mind, but this way it's half of what it'd cost you otherwise). Oh, and get Beads of Karma for your Cleric so the Greater Magic Weapon on your natural attacks is at +4 Caster Levels (harder to Dispel and higher bonus). Of course you also want various trinkets (tons of useful wondrous items) and stuff to align your natural weapons so you can bypass DR/Chaotic, DR/Good, DR/Evil and DR/Lawful. Cleric would come in handy here again.
- Get large, improve your damage and focus on unorthodox attacks (especially Trip and Stunning Fist since they don't rely on Base Attack Bonus; Grapple can work for the first few levels and against low strength opponents but you'll be pretty boned in it later on).

My feat path would be something like:
1. Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist (B), Improved Unarmed Strike (B)
2. Combat Reflexes (B)
3. Ability Focus: Stunning Fist
6. Leadership, Improved Trip (B)
9. Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike
12. Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise, EWP: Spiked Chain or whatever; you kinda don't get anything worthwhile at this point anymore. If Leadership isn't allowed, well, pull everything back by 3 levels.

Also, remember that you can wield a weapon while using your Unarmed Strikes so wielding a reach weapon could be worthwhile to threaten more squares; threatening squares is the primary means of "tanking" in D&D anyways, as AoOs can prevent people from getting around you and if you're Large with reach weapon, that's 20' area you cover.


Ooh, and level 7 you absolutely want a Wizard casting Polymorph on you 24/7; suffice to say, Hydras outdo Humanoids far as tanking goes every day of the free (natural Improved Combat Reflexes, ability to attack with all heads after movement, devastating melee damage). Alternatively, you could just have two Polymorph Any Object castings purchased from any high-level caster in the realms (Gate in a Solar if nothing else) in order to facilitate a permanent shapeshift (first Polymorph Any Object gives you the traits you want, second is a shift into the same form and thus has permanent duration). Come level 20, you could even be Polymorphed into an Outsider like Horned Devil (of course, by then you really should just Use Magic Device on scroll of Shapechange to keep up).

[Telonius]

If you haven't already noticed it in the replies, Monk is considered the least powerful of the core classes, and among the worst in the game. It is very, very difficult to get a whole lot of power out of a Core Monk. (It's hard to get a lot of power from Monk even out of Core, but at least there are options like Enlightened Fist and Sacred Fist). The best advice I have is to multiclass out as soon as you can. You can be about as effective and versatile of an unarmed fighter if you take the Fighter class.

If you really want to try to have an "unarmed combatant," using the Monk class ... well, I think the best you'd be able to do would be to pick up one level of Sorcerer, then prestige class to Dragon Disciple. It will (eventually) give you a set of wings, high hit points, natural armor, and a breath weapon.

[Gavinfoxx]

What, is your lowest stat a 16 or something?

[Talya]

Let's ignore the "monks suck" issue for a moment.

There's another problem with the premise of the original post. There is no viable "tank" role in this game. Even presuming you can make something big and tough enough to withstand being everything's target, you have an issue in that they will just ignore you, because in making yourself that tough, you have rendered yourself a non-threat. Enemies are better off going for the things that represent a real danger and leaving the big tough meatshield until later.

Now, getting back to the "Monks suck" issue...this is compounded. Unlike fighters, monks don't do very much damage, and do not represent much of a threat to anyone on the battlefield. If you can get their AC high enough and focus lots of points in Con so you have lots of hit points, you have pretty good saving throws, then yes, you can be a devil to take down quickly. But they have no reason to take you down; you cannot hit them, and when you do, it doesn't do much damage. They can safely ignore you until the real threats are gone.

[Gavinfoxx]

So lets assume he has 2 18's and the rest 16's. Is that sufficient to mitigate SOME of the Monk issues?

[Eldariel]

So lets assume he has 2 18's and the rest 16's. Is that sufficient to mitigate SOME of the Monk issues?

It mitigates the low AC issue to a degree; combined with Mage Armor a 16/18 Monk actually has a competitive AC early on. It also mitigates the combat maneuver issue to such a degree that anything non-BAB dependent (that is to say, basically Tripping) is a semi-functional strategy (that is to say, not as good as Barbarian let alone Cleric/Druid but about the level of a Fighter) when maxing Str provided a source for a size increase (which you want anyways for your Unarmed damage).

And it makes you somewhat less squishy and makes both Stunning Fist and Trip usable simultaneously (you still maximize Strength of course; need it for damage, for hitting and to keep Trip-checks competitive).


The stat spread would obviously be 18 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 18 Wis, whatever the hell. Note, this is pretty much the assumption in my post too; anything less than two 18s and two 16s is going to be hurting bad, even compared to Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Rogue.

But this makes Stunning Fist somewhat effective (Ability Focus heavily recommended around 3 when you have an actual number of uses of it) and still enables combat maneuvers to a degree, and as Trip is immune to BAB loss, it'll remain about as good as you could hope for with a size increase. And yes, you are obviously completely reliant on a mage's support to get the tank-job done.

[ericgrau]

At 50 gp a pop potions of mage armor are better than a wizard dip at least. But a party mage is even better because you can often get it up to 24 hours. Shillelagh oil is likewise cheap and handy for quarterstaff flurries if you want to switch from tripping to damage in rare situations. And the quarterstaff itself is 0 gp. Monks benefit heavily from buffs from party casters in general because all 3 core full caster types (or 4 if you split sor/wiz) work on them. Even magic vestment says specifically that it works on shirts, in case you have no wizard. Many of these are hour per level so they can be up all day while the casters spend combat doing other things. Some kind of armor bonus is especially helpful since monks don't usually get one, but all the normal stuff is great too. Magic fang/magic weapon are also +1 better than normal unless there are house-ruled "masterwork fists". But again don't fall into the trap of not using weapons, except on stunning fists or grapple damage.

I saw one forum thread where the DM titled the thread "monks suck?" He knew and believed the taboo, yet what happened was the party piled buffs on the monk and he was dominating encounters since he was untouchable from both mundane and special attacks (saves & touch AC) and he was hitting hard at the same time. The DM made the thread to get tips to challenge him with something that wouldn't get stomped. So besides disabling foes to protect your fragile self and the party, coordinating with party casters also helps a great deal.

[Randomguy]

See if you can get the party casters to make you a couple of custom magic items for personal spells that you can't have cast on you, like righteous might and divine power.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I'm also not a fan of the term "tank" applied to 3.5 because the game doesn't have a taunt or aggro mechanic conductive to it. However the basic concept of melee that prevents other party members from being attacked can be acheived in 2 ways.

1. Physically blocking LoS.

2. CCing a large area.

Number 1 is hard to do outside of dungeons, in dungeons it can often be achieved by a simple sword and board build so just max your AC and your all set. Number 2 is very difficult in core I think you're pretty much limited to just tripping. Ask for out of core weapons or take spiked chain fluffed as a meteor hammer, ask party members to increase your size and go to town.

[holywhippet]

As has already been suggested, a caster level or two never hurt anybody.

However, don't take them at 1st level. You want the best hit die possible.

But therin lies the problem:



Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.


As soon as you go for a caster level after having taken monk levels you can no longer take monk levels. You can get around this a bit using prestige classes - sacred fist is a good option for one.

Clerics have the same hit die as monks so if you take a level in cleric first you can avoid losing your initial HP. Catch is, I can't think of any clerical spell that offers as much of an AC boost as mage armor.

[Eldariel]

But therin lies the problem:



As soon as you go for a caster level after having taken monk levels you can no longer take monk levels. You can get around this a bit using prestige classes - sacred fist is a good option for one.

Clerics have the same hit die as monks so if you take a level in cleric first you can avoid losing your initial HP. Catch is, I can't think of any clerical spell that offers as much of an AC boost as mage armor.

Mage Armor is a Cleric Domain spell in the Magic-domain :smalltongue:

[holywhippet]

Mage Armor is a Cleric Domain spell in the Magic-domain :smalltongue:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#magicDomain

?? I'm not seeing it.

[ZeroNumerous]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#magicDomain

?? I'm not seeing it.

Eldariel meant the Spell Domain, rather than the Magic Domain.

[Rubik]

Eldariel meant the Spell Domain, rather than the Magic Domain.He...misspelled it.

[Eldariel]

Eldariel meant the Spell Domain, rather than the Magic Domain.

Holy crap, memory error. Well then, no Mage Armor for Core Clerics. Le sigh.

[Palanan]

Well, no use crying over spelled milk.

:smalltongue:

[Tesla_pasta]

Well, no use crying over spelled milk.

:smalltongue:

LOL.

Thanks, all. I think i'll just focus on tripping/stunning anyone who gets in our wizard or cleric's face, as the playground has convinced me. too bad monks are so weak, they're really fun to play.

[Eldariel]

LOL.

Thanks, all. I think i'll just focus on tripping/stunning anyone who gets in our wizard or cleric's face, as the playground has convinced me. too bad monks are so weak, they're really fun to play.

Well, provided Wizards/Clerics spend some of their actions helping you it might work out. Imbue With Spell Ability for Divine Favor is another nice trick for you to gain some bonuses later on.

[LeshLush]

But therin lies the problem:



As soon as you go for a caster level after having taken monk levels you can no longer take monk levels. You can get around this a bit using prestige classes - sacred fist is a good option for one.

Clerics have the same hit die as monks so if you take a level in cleric first you can avoid losing your initial HP. Catch is, I can't think of any clerical spell that offers as much of an AC boost as mage armor.
Cross-class ranks in UMD and partially charged wands.

[gallagher]

if by core you mean what is in the SRD, you should be a half orc instead of a dwarf, and take the Half Orc Paragon levels until you get a rage (either one or two levels). rage is a good way to enhance strength, and then you can take feats to augment/improve/gain more rages

[dextercorvia]

if by core you mean what is in the SRD, you should be a half orc instead of a dwarf, and take the Half Orc Paragon levels until you get a rage (either one or two levels). rage is a good way to enhance strength, and then you can take feats to augment/improve/gain more rages

Said feats aren't available in core, or the SRD.

Stand Still makes a nice addition to your Combat Reflexes repertoire if you have access to the OGL stuff.

[Aharon]

yeah. So, I rolled epic stats, and couldn't resist making a dwarf monk in our new 3.5 campaign.
As the party's only melee character, I need to fill the tank role as well as possible. what is the best way to max my survivability using core-only material? I've never played a monk past level 1 before, so I'm kinda clueless.

Ignore all the Monk Fluff except "Can stun people with his precise attacks", get STR, CON, Decent armor, one or two fighter levels, and a spiked chain. Make it a +1 ki strike spiked chain later, so you can trip&stun in a package.

Core only, the SR you get later on matters more than non-core, and all good saves and evasions isn't bad easier. You have lots of survivability, and decent disabling abilities - as long as you fight stuff that's not immune.

[Gwendol]

I recommend going cleric at some point in your career: shield of faith is very useful, and the domain powers/spells aren't bad: strength gives you enlarge person, travel a freedom of movement type effect.

[Torben Raibeart]

Monk as a tank, core and dwarf you say? How about dwarven defender? While DD usually use heavy armor and the like to be a little ball of iron nothing can penetrate, nothing is stopping dwarven monks from entering it. Would net you lots of hp (d12 HD), bonus to AC, damage reduction and defensive stance, just the things a tank needs. But don't ask me how an unarmed, unarmored defensive stance works...

Would be able of entering at level 11, thereby having Monk 10/ Dwarven Defender 10 at level 20.

[Eldariel]

Monk as a tank, core and dwarf you say? How about dwarven defender? While DD usually use heavy armor and the like to be a little ball of iron nothing can penetrate, nothing is stopping dwarven monks from entering it. Would net you lots of hp (d12 HD), bonus to AC, damage reduction and defensive stance, just the things a tank needs. But don't ask me how an unarmed, unarmored defensive stance works...

Would be able of entering at level 11, thereby having Monk 10/ Dwarven Defender 10 at level 20.

Defensive Stance unfortunately is cruddy (can't move at all, winded after it ends - if enemies don't run straight at you, you'll have a hard time protecting your squishies outside narrow corridors since you can't move to cover for them) and the feats required to enter Dwarven Defender are terrible (Toughness, Endurance are extremely bad; Dodge is marginally usable against small groups of enemies).

It's still, sadly enough, probably better than straight Monk at those points (tho you lose out on skills and the much-ado-over-nothing spell resistance and...not much else, few 1/day or 1/week abilities). Tho go Monk 11 if you've come that far, for Greater Flurry.