Help me settle a dispute on the Daggerspell Mage

[LordotheMorning]

I'm a dagger-throwing character trying to go into Daggerspell Mage. My DM is giving me a headache about the Arcane Throw class feature, which I need to make the class work for my build (Currently, Swordsage 1/Fighter 2/Halfling Paragon 3/Invisible Blade 1/Whisperknife 1/Master Thrower 5). My damage in melee is less than half of what my damage is when throwing, so the arcane throw is essential for this class to work at all.

The clause is "The Mage can deliver a touch spell with a thrown dagger just as if he were making a melee attack". My DM interprets "as if he were making a melee attack" as treating the attack as if it were a melee attack, meaning I can't use thrown weapon tricks, thrown weapon specialization, or any of the like with it, and I have to use my strength mod (which is terrible). I think that it means you throw a dagger as normal, and if it hits, you resolve the touch spell. "As if you were making a melee attack" means that a dagger is thrown instead of the melee attack that normally goes with a touch spell. I couldn't convince him, so I told him I would consult the forums. Your thoughts? Basically what it comes down to is whether or not I can use my dex mod, my thrown weapon feats, and my thrown weapons tricks with the arcane throw.

[kulosle]

Yes you can. There is no special language in the ability that makes it a melee attack. Look at the Bloodstorm Blade and how it uses special language to make it clear that the line between melee and thrown is being blurred. In this case the "just as if it were making a melee attack" is in reference to its earlier ability that said you can only channel spells through melee attacks.

And if you can't convince your DM then 4 levels, i think it's four anyways, would be enough for you to do it any ways.

[LordotheMorning]

And if you can't convince your DM then 4 levels, i think it's four anyways, would be enough for you to do it any ways.

Four levels of what?

[Baldin]

Hi,

I have to agree with your DM about is being written unclear, however the line in arcane throw "The mage can deliver a touch spell with a thrown daager just as if he were making a melee attack" only refers back to daggercast and means that all rules of daggerspell cast apply exept that you can throw the dagger instead.

So in short all restrictions on daggercast apply to arcane throw EXEPT that you can also throw the weapon with the added benefits of arcane throw.

About the tricks you spoke of Arcane throw does NOT take an extra action and thus you make a ranged attack as you would always do including all tricks you can add to a standard attack.

Arcane throw does not change the way you make your attack it just adds to it.

Do note that the attack with the dagger is not a touch attack (unless you picked the master thrower trick that does make it so)

hope it helps

cheers
Baldin

[Garwain]

The clause refers to daggercast where you can't use it on a throw, which Arcane throw allows.

Just curious, where do you get Arcane caster level 5th to enter the PrC?

[kulosle]

Four levels of what?

Of Bloodstorm Blade. It makes your attacks count as either melee or range for whatever would be most beneficial for everything, what feats/abilities/tricks/stat you can use for the attack.

[CausticFinale]

I don't see a precedent of the language "As if making a melee attack" in the Daggercast. It just says you can deliver spells with a dagger attack. And someone referred to the bloodstorm blade using 'special language' when all it does it let you decide to use your Melee Stats for ranged attacks, which is kinda the opposite you're going for here.

For 8 levels of a PrC I think it could be agreed upon that its a ranged attack. Simply because you can't make a full while doing using Daggercast or Arcane Throw, so it can't get too ridiculous.

[Fax Celestis]

The intention of the "as a melee attack" text on Arcane Throw is to substantiate that the Daggerspell Mage doesn't get to throw the dagger, attach a spell to it, and then make a melee touch attack (or melee attack with Daggercast). What Arcane Throw does is let you throw a dagger with an attached spell. Regardless of whether or not it says "as a melee attack", you are still throwing a weapon and therefore making a thrown attack.

[LordotheMorning]

The clause refers to daggercast where you can't use it on a throw, which Arcane throw allows.

Just curious, where do you get Arcane caster level 5th to enter the PrC?

Long story short, I got a wish, wished for the ability to have some minor spellcasting ability, got lucky, and ended up with the casting ability of a level 8 sorcerer and the wings of a rainbow servant. I was really excited about daggerspell mage because I love it when in-game events can change your planned character build.

[Godskook]

I'm with Fax on this one.

If you want the unofficial official RAW opinion from this board, the foremost expert is Curmudgeon, but I expect he'd agree on this one.

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As an alternative, 2 levels of unseen seer plus persistent spell gives you +3d6 SA, going up by 1d6/3CL. With practiced caster you'd get at least another d6 out of it. Also, you can now learn/cast Heroics for Martial Stance, which nets you Assassin's stance, for 2d6 SA.

[LordotheMorning]

Of Bloodstorm Blade. It makes your attacks count as either melee or range for whatever would be most beneficial for everything, what feats/abilities/tricks/stat you can use for the attack.

I've been meaning to ask someone about Bloodstorm Blade. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that ability simply nullify everything that my build has optimized? If it's treated like a melee attack, doesn't that mean no ranged feats/thrown weapon tricks? Every time I look through Bloodstorm Blade, it seems to me as though it's terrible for this character. I don't even have Weapon Finesse because I went the Halfling Paragon path instead of Swashbuckler.

[Godskook]

Oh, it is terrible for your build, but as at least one poster mentioned, its a *GREAT* comparison of rules language for getting your point across.