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Brainstomper
2012-02-26, 11:16 PM
I have been playing D&D in some form or another for 25 years. I have been the primary DM for my current group for about 10 years. I have seen my fair share of odd ball characters but have notice in the last 2 campaigns that my 4 players have settled into 4 distinct roles. No matter what class they play there is always the money hungry mercenary with less compunction toward killing than Dexter, (Including his NG cleric of Baldur). Secondly, there is the guy guy that always holds back and always talks about retiring,invests minimal effort into taking risks or in game authority. Next we have the "Don't push the red button guy". No matter what dangers are outlined he simply has to push the limit and unleash random chaos. The last player is more flexible and stretches his role. He has been playing the heavy hitter the last few campaigns and asked if he could go back to the odd ball wizard. So while starting the campaign I told the guys the general background and told them it was going to be more of an "old school" dungeon crawl to start. Be original play some thing new. I got a mercenary dwarf fighter that only wanted to kill things, whom I forced an alignment change from N to NE for surprise attacking a traveler and his wife because they could blame it on the local bandits. Mind you he is tasked with elimination of said bandits. The Gnome thief went along pushed the buttons etc. Went from CG to CN. The gnome cleric stayed at the Inn. Didnt take a single point of damage, disengaged form other combats and was actively looking to "return home." The last guy couldn't make it. The entire big and daring change? They played a dwarf, halfling and a gnome instead of humans. After 3 hours I wrapped it up and sent the players home. This morning I called them and explained that I wasn't going to run anymore and explained my various individual reasons why. So has any one else gone thru this and what was the outcome?

Novawurmson
2012-02-27, 12:03 AM
Well, most of my regular play group has moved, but I have:

1. One guy who switches characters every few months.
2. One lady who plays rogues, usually elf or cat-like.
3. One guy who almost always plays casters.

In the current campaign, player 1 has switched his character 3 times, player 2 is playing a Tibbit Rogue, and player 3 is playing a Summoner.

Your players play the way they do for a reason. As long as they enjoy the characters they make, why try to force them to do something else? Talk with your players about why they play the characters they always do. For example, the guy playing the Summoner is partially doing so because he likes the anime-esque feel of the Eidolon; however, he's expressed interest in the Cavalier for his next character because the Order of the Dragon pledges themselves to defend their friends and allies - an anime-esque pledge.

Also, try putting effort into making cool NPCs (allied or enemies) who do different things or have original ways of thinking about the world; you'll often convince your characters to try things after seeing them in action. For example, I put a few Warblades into the campaign, which convinced the Rogue to pick up a few feats from the Tome of Battle.

TL;DR: Don't try to force your players to do things they don't like; make other options attractive, and they'll try them.

Arbane
2012-02-27, 12:24 AM
I have been playing D&D in some form or another for 25 years. I have been the primary DM for my current group for about 10 years. I have seen my fair share of odd ball characters but have notice in the last 2 campaigns that my 4 players have settled into 4 distinct roles. (SNIP)

Sounds to me like you're all just in a rut. maybe play something besides D&D for a while?

bloodtide
2012-02-27, 12:31 AM
So has any one else gone thru this and what was the outcome?

This is normal enough for long time players. You just about get only two types: the ones who try a new character every time and the ones that play the same character every time.

This is a very common reason that people don't DM all the time. So the easy thing to do is to pass the DM hat to someone else.

It is a bit pointless to go down the 'I want the players to be one way that they don't want to be and how can I force them to be that way'. You might be able to talk to the players and you might be able to hoodwink them into changing their minds. But chances are they won't like it, and won't be all that happy. If your players like to play one way, then that is how they have fun. For you to get up on your soap box and say ''everyone must be different character to expand their minds and embrace diversity'' is just pointless.

Brainstomper
2012-02-27, 12:43 AM
We have played other games/systems. The core problem is that my players enjoy their "archetypes" too much. Mechwarrior,modern, gurps Star Wars,even with other GM's the under lying problems persist. I have literally spent months with plot hooks, new directions etc. But in my conversations today it was clear that they as players wanted a hack and slash style with no character development, whereas I have become much more interested in the development of relationships, characters interactions and long term consequences of PC actions. I am tired of setting up "playdates to game" 3 of 5 of us are married with kids, having players not follow basic table etiquette and a style of play that brings me no enjoyment. DM's are a vital part of gaming and I feel that if they are not having fun,that they shouldn't be pressured to run. Which is now happening to me. This whole post is a big whiny rant because no one IRL cares that much,but this last gaming session killed my enjoyment of a hobby that I have enjoyed since 1983. I really feel like I have taken part in my last game, which saddens me because I didn't see it coming.

stainboy
2012-02-27, 12:46 AM
I've had this problem too. I've got Amoral/Sociopathic Infiltrator Guy, Killing Spree in Town Guy, and Basketweaver Snowflake Build Guy. The thing that worked for me was bringing in some new players to mix things up.

Cookiemobsta
2012-02-27, 01:18 AM
I'm assuming that if you've been gaming with these guys for a decade, then they're good friends of yours, and want you to be having fun. So explain to them that you're not having fun, and ask them to compromise with you. You don't have to give up the game entirely--I'm sure that you are all mature adults and that if you clearly explain why the game is no longer fun to you, they would be willing to change up their playstyles somewhat so that the game becomes fun for you again. Communication and compromise is the answer here :)

Brainstomper
2012-02-27, 01:28 AM
The group is composed of long term friends. In fact 2 of them are godfathers for my 2 kids. I have talked it out with them in the past,but 2 of them are stuck in an outside feud that they are unable to resolve. That has been causing some of the problems, one other guy actively has run out 2 newcomers ( including player 4 wife) due to his "contempt" for "newbs". The more I sit down and deconstruct the group, I have begun to see how toxic it has become. I think that it simply time to lay down the dice with certain members and bring in some new players and lay down clear ground rules and realistic expectations for what I am willing to provide vs. what players want.I am willing to compromise, but to some degree I do 95% 0f the prep work for the game and IRL so that wecan game. I feel justified in having a big veto as far as whats going to be going on from now on.

EccentricOwl
2012-02-27, 01:31 AM
Sounds to me like you're all just in a rut. maybe play something besides D&D for a while?

Happened to others in my gaming group. What dear Arbane said EXACTLY was enough to fix it.

It's important to talk expectations beforehand though.

LibraryOgre
2012-02-27, 01:31 AM
Sounds to me like you're all just in a rut. maybe play something besides D&D for a while?

There's some of that, certainly... though switching things up doesn't necessarily fix things. (http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2001-11-29) I know I tend to play the same characters every time, though with an effort to be a bit different... no matter what, I tend to wish my character had more knowledge skills and spoke more langauges. ;-)

I think everyone taking a break is in the best interests of the group. Play something else... even just board games. The players don't want to change what they're doing, so they won't. Best to let everyone relax away from it, or let someone else take the screen for a while.

ClothedInVelvet
2012-02-27, 01:39 AM
I understand how you feel and I think you're right to do what you did. I've been in similar situations, with players who wanted to do different things than I did, and you're right, it's just no fun. But there are plenty of people who do want to get into RP, and have encounters more complex than, "I came, I saw, I killed." I wish you the best of luck in finding a group of those players to utilize your experience.

Brainstomper
2012-02-27, 01:58 AM
Mark Hall.. we do not speak of board games. Compound Interest Monopoly, Risk (Your Life) etc..hardcore.

In the long run its the right thing to do. It kinda stings as last fall I gave up Warhammer due to time/budget restraints. Being married with 2 kids, 1 with epilepsy, a stay at home Dad and working 30+ hours at night just makes me be fairly selfish when it comes to my gaming time. It'll get better but it is sort of a let down.

The "4th guy" has mentioned running Mechwarrior or his E6 campaign. Last time he ran Mechwarrior,we needed my wife,who is an accountant, to keep track of our in game money,costs and loans. She once pointed out that my Victor had more tonnage armor shot off of it than other mechs in our stable weighed.

Alaris
2012-02-27, 02:00 AM
Sounds to me like you're all just in a rut. maybe play something besides D&D for a while?

This is SO MUCH THE TRUTH.

Our group is in a rut at the moment, for various different reasons, and have been playing D&D actively (read, 'weekly') for the past 6 years. It has worn on several of us in different ways.

Thankfully, our DM has seen this, and brought other games into the mix (Star Wars, and an "All Flesh Must Be Eaten" game). It has helped quite a bit, when we can get those other games run.

At the end of the day, I recommend trying a different system. Make it... far-flung from D&D if you can help it, so they can't try to stick to old principles.



We have played other games/systems. The core problem is that my players enjoy their "archetypes" too much. Mechwarrior,modern, gurps Star Wars,even with other GM's the under lying problems persist. I have literally spent months with plot hooks, new directions etc. But in my conversations today it was clear that they as players wanted a hack and slash style with no character development, whereas I have become much more interested in the development of relationships, characters interactions and long term consequences of PC actions. I am tired of setting up "playdates to game" 3 of 5 of us are married with kids, having players not follow basic table etiquette and a style of play that brings me no enjoyment. DM's are a vital part of gaming and I feel that if they are not having fun,that they shouldn't be pressured to run. Which is now happening to me. This whole post is a big whiny rant because no one IRL cares that much,but this last gaming session killed my enjoyment of a hobby that I have enjoyed since 1983. I really feel like I have taken part in my last game, which saddens me because I didn't see it coming.


Well... now that I didn't see.

But... I do have a good recommendation for you. And I hope it helps. Well... 2 infact.

1. See if one of the other players is willing to DM, and take a seat as a Player for a while. It will do two things. It will take the stress of DMing off of you, and let you play for a while; it will give the player in question a taste of what you have to put up with.

2. And... if 1 doesn't work, then I honestly recommend finding a new group. These guys appear to be less 'character development' and more 'hack 'n slashers'.

Fatebreaker
2012-02-27, 02:44 AM
First off, however this turns out, good luck to you, Brainstomper. I've been there, and it's no fun whatsoever.

Fun or not, it sounds like you're conflating two different problems:

#1) Your players enjoy the archetypes they play, and therefore play those same archetypes over and over.

#2) You and your players share a different outlook on what kind of game you want.

Your players enjoying their archetypes isn't a problem. Your players wanting an entirely different style of game than the one you want to run is.

Now, I don't know you and I don't know your friends. But at least from your description, it sounds to me like your "retirement" buddy is a good place to start integrating the two play-styles. If he always plays characters who want to retire or go home or whatever, then build a plot hook that helps him get home.

Ex: The party is stuck in a port-town. All the ships are stuck in port because of [pirates / storm-elementals / some manner of local trouble], and it's up to the party to solve the problem. Your retirement guy? He needs a ship to get home. The plot plays to his best interest, gets him involved, because now solving the plot means advancing his character's goals.

The best way you, as a DM, can get the players interested in what interests you is to start with what interests them. Then, you slowly work in your elements. Whether you think of this as introducing it to them in a nice, safe way so that they can see the benefits of a new play style, or you think of it as conditioning your friends, the end result is that you all get to enjoy what both styles of play have to offer, and more importantly, you get to enjoy games with friends.

Now, it also sounds like y'all are having some toxic social issues. I can't speak to those, except to wish you the best of luck in either resolving them or finding new players. But when that happens, remember that even hack'n'slash can lead to interesting character development with the right hook to catch the interest of your players. Watching a hack'n'slash game turn into a compelling story is a beautiful, beautiful thing, and I hope you get a chance to see it someday.

However it goes, good luck. And sorry to hear about losing your Warhammer hobby. What did you play?

Ricky S
2012-02-27, 06:33 AM
I dm'd a few campaigns and I noticed that a lot of my characters were leaning towards evil and I had to try and curb their blood thirst. Then for my next campaign I let them play the way they wanted to. They could be as evil and as bloodthirsty as they wanted the only rule was that they could not harm each other. It worked great. The fulfilled their wishes and slaughtered nearly everyone on the continent.

After that they were more than happy to play a normal game and try out new characters. I talked to them afterwards and they said they felt like they could never fully play how they wanted to because of the restrictions I had imposed. So they were glad they could finally do as they wished.

It was insane fun as well. In the beginning there was a lot of backstreet murders and thievery. It progressed to courts and political backstabbing. Eventually they usurped the king and began forming an army to march forward to conquer all the land. They were now fighting off assassination attempts. Finally only an epic level wizard council stood in their way. Ultimately they were defeated in a suitably heroic battle on a castle top as the two armies of good and evil clashed together below.

Jornophelanthas
2012-02-27, 07:45 AM
I can offer two pieces of advice, either of which could help you resolve your issue.

1. Stop being the DM, and be a player for a while. Creating and playing a character with all the traits you would like to see in a game (i.e. character development, dynamic social relationships with party members) could allow you to blow off steam.
Plus, someone else gets to do all the preparation work that you are experiencing as tedious.

2. DM a game of Paranoia with them. Suddenly, the players' hack-and-slash playstyle becomes their own worst enemy, and this turnaround is exactly where the fun of the game is to be found.

Kalmageddon
2012-02-27, 09:01 AM
I would pay gold to have more archetypical players.

In fact I noticed the opposite is true for more experienced players: they have played almost every "typical" character and in the end only want to play odd characters that don't fit in the campaign. I'll admit even I sometimes enjoy the idea of playing the "odd" character, but I like my characters to fit in the setting and general tone of the campaign.

Now the problem of the OP seems more about having bad players, with "bad" meaning "they don't care about the setting, the campaign or even teamwork" and they just want to **** around with their characters doing their shticks.

W3bDragon
2012-02-27, 10:19 AM
I feel your pain. Many of us have been in similar situations. As you can tell from the varied posts above, there are indeed many things you can do to improve your gaming. The reason there are many things you can do is that there are many things that are wrong with your gaming right now:


DM burn out: Churning out the same old gags over and over because the players simply won't respond to anything new. Seeing your carefully crafted plots be ignored or derailed back to the same old plots the players want is crushing.

Locked group: The fact that you have people gaming together even though they have a social feud, and a third member who actively runs out newcomers makes the situation bad no matter how you spin it. The group has a bad vibe about it, and that's not going to change with a talk.

Different levels of commitment: The amount of time you put into your gaming usually directly correlates to how much you're committed to it. If you're more committed than the rest of the players, you'll always feel like they're just there to roll a few dices and kill some mooks, while to them, you might seem like a stuck up grumpy old gamer who won't just let them have their fun.

Stressful gaming: Most of us game to unwind and have a good time, especially those of us that are older and with more RL commitments. In fact, its to these older players that a game gone sour can cause the most headache, because its usually they ONLY time of the week that they have to unwind. The last thing we want is drama and headaches. The game has become stressful for you and that's never good.



So what can you do about it? Many things really. Here are the key points:


Take a break: All of you obviously need a bit of a break from gaming. Even just a few weeks can let you get things back into perspective. Call off the current campaign (seems you already did) and don't agree on a date of when to start over again. Just leave it hanging.

New blood: Nothing reignites the fun of gaming like DMing for new players. It has worked for countless DMs before. Trust me it works. Once you've taken your break from gaming, approach the new players and see if they are interested in starting a campaign just for them. Usually 2 new players along with 1 old one (definitely not the one that runs out newbies) can be a good enough start. If the other old players ask about joining the game, just say that your current story cannot support more than 3 PCs, and its gonna be a short game. Basically find a nice way of saying "we're full, thanks for asking".

Back to your roots: This is the perfect time to unleash your oldest and fondest memories of gaming onto your PCs. Run them through your old favorites. Don't jump into the epic campaign you always wanted to run, instead look for the simple games that made you fall in love with the game to begin with. Run things like that.

Keep things simple: I know that you'd probably want to write a laundry list of Do's and Don't's so your new group doesn't fall into the habits of the old one, but trust me, don't. Let the new players experience the game and find their own footing. They'll find their own likes and dislikes. Prod them (GENTLY!) for a bit of character development in-game from time to time and let things fall where they may.


Believe me, this works. There is still plenty of fun to be had for you in this hobby, but you need to change things up. Hang in there!

Good luck!

Brainstomper
2012-02-27, 11:23 AM
Considering a Star Wars Clone Campaign. Here are your Characters 12 for stats across the board similar feat build. Crash them on new planet ala David Weber March Upcountry.

Fatebreaker
2012-02-27, 01:41 PM
Ooo! If you're going to do a March Upcountry-esque game (and you really want to get some roleplaying out of your crew), make sure to put moral dilemmas into the game!

Why? Read below. Fair warning, vague, vague, vague spoilers (with specific spoilers contained in separate spoiler tags), in case anyone wants to read the books. Also, fair warning, I will occasionally be using the services of a soapbox:


The problem with March Upcountry is that, throughout the series, the premise of the conflict is that the high-tech group must #1) march from one end of the planet to the other so they can #2) escape offworld while #3) protecting the life of one specific member of the party above all others because They Are Special, in spite of #4) potentially hostile low-tech alien natives & wildlife and #5) potentially hostile high-tech Evil Dudes From Space Who Are Evil, all while #6) managing ever-dwindling resources and personnel and #7) remaining unnoticed by the aforementioned Evil Dudes From Space Who Are Evil.

Unfortunately, the group never really encounters a scenario where these come into conflict with one another or their own morality, in spite of multiple characters reminding the reader multiple times that any price is worth getting The Special Important Character off-world safely. Whenever they meet Bad Natives (such as slavers, cannibals, barbarians, etc.), they kill them dead. Whenever they meet Good Natives, they talk with them. They never reach a scenario where, to accomplish their goals, they have to help Bad Natives slaughter/enslave/namecall Good Natives.

For example, when they come across the natives who have built a powerful civilization AND are in contact with the spaceport the party is trying to reach, they say they can't fight their way out of this one. When those natives are revealed to be religious cannibals, and they want to eat a member of the party in exchange for free passage to the spaceport, the party fights its way out and suffers no real penalties for doing so (aside from a variety of redshirts and a handful of B-level characters).

If you want to build a character-based story, this is not a good model. Every challenge the characters come across clearly has a Right Answer, and so the characters never grow or change. They just go from one set-piece to the next, solve the problem, and move on. The characters never really grow or change. They end the third book much the same as they began the first.

And they never have to change, because circumstances let them coast (personality-wise) the whole time. Even once, I would have liked to see the party reach a point where they really had to put the Mission above everything else. Make some hard decisions. Show some change and grow.

From a D&D perspective, the books looked something like...

DM: "Okay, the barbarians are blocking your path. They are also cannibals who kick puppies. What do you do?"
Julian: "I laugh, 'cause that's what I do. Then I shoot the cannibal barbarian in the face. While laughing. But in a good way."
DM: "Okay, one dies. Everyone cheers up. Despraeux, what do you do?"
Despraeux: "I am sad, because my friends died. I do not want to fight anymore."
Julian: "But my laughing was awesome! You are cheered!"
DM: "Okay, so you...?"
Despraeux: "But I must fight, because they are cannibal barbarians, and my friends must get home. Those of whom are still alive."
DM: "And your action is...?"
Despraeux: "I will lament my fighting, while fighting, because I must fight, though I no longer wish to fight. Also, Roger and I will have an awkward, stilted non-romance."
Roger: "Wait! Guys! Man, guys, I just got it! You're people too!"
Palmer: "I do something badass and make it look easy. Then I dispense words of wisdom."
DM: "Alright. You lose 2d6 redshirts, but you beat the cannibal barbarians.
Despraeux: "I am sad."
Palmer: "Any price is worth Roger's safety. Now, let's go take risks with Roger's safety because we don't want to do anything morally offensive."
Julian: [laughs]

This is basically every single obstacle in the series.

It's not a bad series. And it's a FASCINATING premise. There are some amazing campaign ideas in there. But, since you want "development of relationships, characters interactions and long term consequences of PC actions," I cannot emphasize strongly enough the false premise March Upcountry presents by avoiding any moral quandries.

Moral dilemmas! Use them!


*ahem*

[/soapbox.]

I would recommend you steer away from "You all have the same stats" line of thought, though. There are several games out there which are built around players having similar characters. You may want to take a look at some of them for inspiration. Deathwatch, from the Warhammer 40,000 line, is one excellent example, where you all play Space Marines. Or you could play Pendragon for some awesome Arthurian action (and also alliteration!).

Telling players that they have the same stats instills a sense that their characters are identical in them. You sound like you want them to be different.

Both Deathwatch and Pendragon, for example, instil a similar theme in the characters, but let the players explore that theme in their own way. The roleplaying becomes an important outlet for players to express how unique their characters are. In Pendragon, for example, players are all assumed to be Arthurian knights in shining armor. But there are lot of variations on that theme, and different stats can help express that theme.

Some examples from Pendragon:


One of our players decided that he wanted his character to always struggle to live up to the chivalric ideals of the age. So his relevant stats are lower than the rest of ours. Most of the time, it's a roleplaying thing. But in a major battle, he failed a moral test that any other player would have made. He actually fled the field, abandoning us to face down a Saxon giant on his own. It almost got us killed, but it made our eventual victory all the better. If we'd all had identical stats, he would have stayed and missed out on that character-defining moment. We would have missed out on an awesome story.

Some of us specialized in one form of combat over another. I, for example, am the lancer, both thematically (see link below) and literally. The first is mostly roleplaying (though a few stats help back up the player-acting), but the second is entirely due to my gear and stats being significantly better at that sort of thing. When mounted combat is the order of the day, the party turns to me. But when we are forced to dismount, other characters naturally come to the fore. And when a character with lower stats gets lucky and outperfoms mechanically superior characters, it's much more impressive. One player even earned the nickname "Sir Shows-You-Up!" because he had a habit of getting lucky when performing other people's roles.

Warning: TvTropes.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLancer


Having players adhere to a theme (especially one tied specifically to the nature of the campaign) is a great way to get them into the mindset of the game. Letting them explore that theme allows them to emphasize what makes them different from everyone else at the table, while still fitting into the mindset of the campaign. But once players feel like their characters are interchangeable, they're not likely to develop those characters or become attached to them in any meaningful way. Since perception is such a big part of having fun, I would recommend avoiding the perception that nobody can be "their" character.

If you're set on the clone/identical character vibe, a fun thing to do is to show players a picture of a really cool looking character. WotC has a lot of neat artwork that fits the bill. Have them write up a backstory of who they think that character is, was, and wants to be. Ask them to think of who they would want to be if they played that character. When everyone gets back, let them know, congrats, that's who they'll be playing for the next session! By letting folks get attached to the character first, and introducing mechanics second, you'll have more success than "take these copy/pasted character sheets and make a unique snowflake out of them."

And, since you mentioned you like Warhammer, taking a look at Deathwatch would neatly allow you to fulfill multiple hobby needs at once...

--

TL;DR: March Upcountry has a great premise, but no moral dilemmas, and so the core conflict is not conducive to character growth. Avoid same-stat temptations if you want character development. Use a theme to unify the characters, but let them explore freely within that theme. Try Deathwatch.

The Glyphstone
2012-02-27, 01:58 PM
Ooo! If you're going to do a March Upcountry-esque game (and you really want to get some roleplaying out of your crew), make sure to put moral dilemmas into the game!


And, of course, when someone is about to roll to confirm a critical hit, pause the game and read them 10 minutes of backstory exposition.:smallbiggrin:

Zerter
2012-02-27, 01:59 PM
I'm gonna recommend new blood. New blood generally means someone that's invested in making it work as opposed to the people stuck in their ways and also changes the group dynamics for the better. If someone in the group is activally hostile vs. newbies you're gonna have to do something about that because it's not acceptable, it dooms the group.

Fatebreaker
2012-02-27, 02:12 PM
And, of course, when someone is about to roll to confirm a critical hit, pause the game and read them 10 minutes of backstory exposition.:smallbiggrin:

I'm honestly curious how long I could get away with doing this in a game.

nedz
2012-02-27, 02:37 PM
Take a break - or introduce new blood.

One solution to the problem you're having with the latter is to get the group to buy in to the solution. Allow them all to veto a new player BEFORE they join. Hopefully you should be able to wrangle this. This should mean that they can't force them out afterwards - since they had the're chance. I'm not sure if this will actually work with your group, but it can solve some issues.

Saladman
2012-02-27, 03:31 PM
After a move some time ago, I went from playing with the same group of friends, working out what we were going to play by consensus, to not gaming at all for two years, to gaming with people who were positively on board with the game on offer. That is, pitch a game first, build a group around it, and the group may be different for every game.

What I'm doing now has its own quirks, but its still the best experience I've ever had gaming.

I've got to disagree with anyone giving you advice to solve your problem by keeping the group and "trying harder" or "building better/more interesting plots". The problem is that gives you all the responsibility but all the power to your players. Its a dysfunctional dynamic. In fact that might be part of your problem already; that the players have figured out, consciously or otherwise, that they can **** around with you and other players, and you'll be the one to try harder. But if you're not there already, then the "try harder/plot better!" advice is going to take you there.

The best case interpretation of your post is your group wants different and conflicting things out of a game session. In that case, it's better to recognize that and take a break instead of trying to reconcile mutually exclusive goals from gaming.

But even that undersells it; if you've got a player driving away newcomers to the hobby or to your table that's not okay. That would be a pretty darn big deal to me, and if you've never confronted it head on and reached a positive agreement on boundaries of behavior, with an understanding he'll be asked to leave if he crosses it, he will not stop. He's already told you what he's about and what he's there to game for: driving away newbs is part of the fun of gaming for him, and you dancing around it obliquely so you don't poison a real life friendship isn't going to change his behavior.

It's a similar deal with bad blood between two players; you can't fix that for them by trying harder as a GM. That's on them, and it doesn't sound like it's going anywhere.

I know it's tough to close a game when it's with friends, but if you're really friends, play poker or Carcossonne, or have a bad movie night or something.

And I know it's tough to go without a game, but you can post flyers, or join or start a meetup group, or get plugged into the old-school bloggers' online gaming on Google+. There are options.

Calimehter
2012-02-27, 03:53 PM
Well, as the "last guy" from the group who missed the 'Session of Doom', I can add this:

I've run for the group myself from time to time, and we've had some *great* sessions over the years, which is part of the reason we are still hanging out. But, real life situations for everyone have changed a lot from the 'good old days' that we all remember. Compared to when we were all high-school or college kids, there is a lot more pressure from real life, jobs, kids (for some), health (for others), than when we were young, and I think that plays a role at the table even if we don't want it to. Personality differences that once were just laughed off now seem to be bigger problems, and the fact that we can only get together so infrequently seems to lead to inflated expectations over what we are going to "get" out of a session that is now so much harder to carve out of our schedules. Long breaks make it tough for the level of player investment and memory of detail that GMs (Brainstomper or myself) would like.

How do you long-term groups out there deal with the . . . not "rut" really so much as it is a gradually changing dynamic?

Its a tough group for a newb to break into, partly for the reasons Brainstomper mentioned regarding the hostility of one or two players (unfortunately), but also because the 5 of us have been together so long and have accumulated so many in-jokes and gaming stories that new players feel left out of a lot of the time (I've been told this by some failed would-be players over the years).

Breaks are a nice idea, but I personally think the long breaks between sessions are as much part of the problem now as they would be part of any possible solution, if that makes any sense.

I'm personally leaning toward opening the next session with a 'clearing of the air' about why we are all gathered to play a teamwork-oriented game and what we all want to get out of the campaign, rather than just coasting along hoping that things will work just as they always have.

I'm hardly an outside impartial observer, though, so if this extra info has generated any tips from the Playground, we'd be happy to hear them. :smallsmile:

ken-do-nim
2012-02-27, 08:13 PM
In both my ftf D&D groups, everyone plays multiple characters. I've probably never run into this problem because of that.

W3bDragon
2012-02-28, 04:53 AM
How do you long-term groups out there deal with the . . . not "rut" really so much as it is a gradually changing dynamic?

Well besides the advice I posted above, I'd like to add that I've been there. Really, I've been exactly there, and I'm still gaming and having a blast.

I'm part of an extended group of friends that all gamed together at one point or another for nearly 20 years. 15 of us in total. We had some truly awesome, nay EPIC sessions together. So when, over time, the quality of our gaming dropped, and sessions started to become less and less enjoyable, we refused to point a finger at ourselves as a whole being the problem. It always was "too many people" or "bad plot" or "bad GMing" or "player X blew it, messing up the game". In truth, the problem was in us, the players. All of us.

Our gaming styles simply grew in different directions. Some of the players grew as RPers and felt that the weaker RP players were "dumbing down" the game. Some players had lost the spark of gaming and just wanted to hang out with friends and roll some dice. Others grew more intense in their need for the spotlight, sidelining other players too often. Our DM also had too much on his plate and could no longer prepare and successfully run the epic games he used to run for us because of time constraints that he refused to admit were there.

We eventually had one too many catastrophic sessions and ended up stopping gaming completely. It was only when we stopped and distanced ourselves from gaming did we start to see the problems of the group. When we finally decided to start gaming again, only a small group of people expressed real interest in continuing to play, with the other players rightfully realizing they either didn't have the time, or didn't share the same style of gaming as the rest. That was a very big relief for all of us. That small group that started gaming has been going now for several years, and we're having a blast. The other people that stopped gaming got into MMOs and other group activities, which we shared them. We still all hang out and have fun.

INDYSTAR188
2012-02-28, 10:09 AM
I can sympathize with your situation. I think that truly the best advice is what W3bDragon is saying. It's probably a case where no one's individually at fault and at the same time everyone is. I would suggest a break from gaming, maybe a couple weeks or maybe even a couple months.

I would ask everyone to a get together right at the start of the break, give everyone a chance to clear the air. Put it on paper what you guys hope to get out of the game and what you're looking for. If you get a consensus that most of the group want's to play a hack and slash maybe you could play a heroic tier 4E campaign, kinda get it out of the system.

Then take a small break and come back to whatever system you're playing now, with the expectation that you made the effort to play how they wanted, now for them to give your way a chance too. I personally think it's a lot of fun to play different types of character types and roles but my group is at the mid to low RP level.

I had been playing for about 4 years and then I joined the Navy for 7 and couldn't play anymore. I got out recently and our group had been playing with newer people on and off since I left. I came back right at the perfect time to start DMing a campaign and we got a couple new people to the group. It's so much fun to get together and play and I hope it works out for you guys. Good luck! If you're in the Indianapolis area and you want to play, let me know!

boredgremlin
2012-02-28, 11:20 AM
I've had this problem too. I've got Amoral/Sociopathic Infiltrator Guy, Killing Spree in Town Guy, and Basketweaver Snowflake Build Guy. The thing that worked for me was bringing in some new players to mix things up.

This. I had a moment about halfway into the life of 3e where i just wasnt having any fun. So i took a few months off of gaming, read a few good books and got the itch again.

Then instead of calling up the old group I went online and tried to form a whole new group. I actually wound up going about 50/50 old and new but the new faces forced everyone to change up their usual style and it fixed the problem.

So i guess my advice to the OP is step away for a bit, do some non-TTRPG fantasy stuff for fun and see if the old itch comes back. And if it does then change a few things up and see how it goes.

kyoryu
2012-03-02, 02:00 PM
I've run for the group myself from time to time, and we've had some *great* sessions over the years, which is part of the reason we are still hanging out. But, real life situations for everyone have changed a lot from the 'good old days' that we all remember. Compared to when we were all high-school or college kids, there is a lot more pressure from real life, jobs, kids (for some), health (for others), than when we were young, and I think that plays a role at the table even if we don't want it to. Personality differences that once were just laughed off now seem to be bigger problems, and the fact that we can only get together so infrequently seems to lead to inflated expectations over what we are going to "get" out of a session that is now so much harder to carve out of our schedules. Long breaks make it tough for the level of player investment and memory of detail that GMs (Brainstomper or myself) would like.

Accept reality. You have time constraints. Accept those, and figure out what kinds of games work well with them. Going for the highly detailed, always-plot-driven kind of game may not work when neither your DM nor your players have a ton of time.

Instead, try shifting to a game that is more world-sim than plot. Rely on random tables to generate stuff. Allow for hack'n'slash sessions. Make plots more long term, where a couple details of the overall "plot" (which is really an evolving situation) get leaked once in a while. Let the players drive what happens, and allow the DM to react rather than predict.

By doing this, you can maybe get the game going more regularly, and distribute some of the creative load. One of the big prolems in "plot" games is that often the players don't feel invested in the plot, since they have minimal impact on it. This type of game also typically requires less up-front prep per game. Although a certain amount is required before the game begins, to ensure that you've got enough detail to keep them entertained in any direction they go. The advantage is that most of this prep is reusable.


Its a tough group for a newb to break into, partly for the reasons Brainstomper mentioned regarding the hostility of one or two players (unfortunately), but also because the 5 of us have been together so long and have accumulated so many in-jokes and gaming stories that new players feel left out of a lot of the time (I've been told this by some failed would-be players over the years).

Yeah, I don't really buy this. I played for years (early 90s) in a campaign that probably dated to the 70s. It used a customized system based on Man-to-Man, the predecessor to GURPS, combined with a bunch of other stuff (some 1e, bunch of other random garbage). The others in the group were never anything less than inviting, and I remain friends with them today, even though we all now live in different states.

If you want new players, welcome them. It should be the job of all members to do so, and hostility shouldn't be tolerated. Bring them in on the jokes. Focus on the jokes that they'll get, and make new in-jokes with them. Inviting them into the game will require an *active* approach on the part of the existing players, not just throwing them into the deep end.


Breaks are a nice idea, but I personally think the long breaks between sessions are as much part of the problem now as they would be part of any possible solution, if that makes any sense.

Yeah, I agree with you. A break from D&D may be an idea, but finding a way to have a regular game night I think is useful.

Again, I'm going to suggest finding ways to game more frequently. Figure out what the roadblock is, and then eliminate it.

For availability, I'd figure out the best overall time to game, and then just make a habit of it. If someone doesn't show, so be it. A game cannot survive long-term if it's predicated on all of the members of the group staying in the game, and showing to every game. If so many people don't show that you can't game, then watch a movie or play munchkin or video games or something. By making it a regular thing (regardless of schedule), it can be consistent enough that people can plan around it, at least some of the time.

If it's a prep time, well, I covered that earlier. Basically, figure out how to run games with little prep. That may mean that the games are less memorable - so be it. The real memories from games are the interactions between the players, *not* the plot that the DM hands out. We all know the story of Eric and the Dread Gazebo. Do any of us know the details of the campaign or its plot? Most of us know Tucker's Kobolds - do we know the Big Bad of the campaign?


I'm personally leaning toward opening the next session with a 'clearing of the air' about why we are all gathered to play a teamwork-oriented game and what we all want to get out of the campaign, rather than just coasting along hoping that things will work just as they always have.

I think this is a good idea. Figure out what everyone wants. Get on the same page, or at least understand what page everyone is on. Make compromises. If some people want to play a more character-oriented game, then maybe try a game that's more character-oriented for a few sessions. But promise that you'll also do some hack'n'slash if that's what the others want.