Branched off from a Druid thread: An open challenge

[Amphetryon]

I wonder if your friend will also be seeking online advice, because frankly, he needs it more than you do. I'd be interested in reading that thread: how would a fighter beat a druid at level 8?

Now, I'd like to tweak this idea and run with it a bit, to see what the Playground can come up with. Here are the rules:


10th level characters. I know prufrock and the other thread said 8th level, but 10th gives more feats and HP to the fighter and doesn't improve Wildshape significantly.
32 point buy, by-the-book WBL with no more than 40% of character wealth in any one item.
Both contestants start within an open-air Colosseum, 100' diameter. One exit open doorway exists as well, at a median point along the wall between their starting positions.
Outside is dense forest on 3 sides, 200' cliff overlooking a deep ocean on the 4th.
Each character is built with the SRD and ONE additional WotC splat book of each player's choosing; I'll stipulate the druid is using Complete Divine. The Druid's build will be readily available to discuss on demand, given 24 hour's notice, in fact.
"10th level characters" means the druid has 10 druid levels, and the fighter has 10 fighter levels. No multiclassing, LA + 1-or-more races, or templates allowed, not even a +0 template.
The fighter gets 1 hour to prepare before combat; the druid gets 15 minutes. The fighter has more trouble buffing himself and donning armor, generally.
If this list proves incomplete - highly probable - ask for clarification.

Is it really possible to build a fighter capable of defeating a druid in these conditions? How would you go about it? What odds would you give the fighter?

[Mystify]

Just want to point out that level 10 does not get an extra iterative to the fighter. They get that at 11.

[Amphetryon]

Just want to point out that level 10 does not get an extra iterative to the fighter. They get that at 11.

I don't know what you're talking about. :smallredface: Fix'd.

[CTrees]

"10th level characters" means the druid has 10 druid levels, and the fighter has 10 fighter levels. No multiclassing, LA + 1-or-more races, or templates allowed, not even a +0 template.

Do things like Water Orc count as a template, or simply a different race, for purposes of this exercise?

Also: Priority one is likely finding a cheap but sufficient way to gain fly.

[Baldin]

What about prestige class for fighter?

[candycorn]

What about prestige class for fighter?


"10th level characters" means the druid has 10 druid levels, and the fighter has 10 fighter levels. No multiclassing, LA + 1-or-more races, or templates allowed, not even a +0 template.

If you can find a way to get a prestige class on a LA 0 race character with 10 levels of Fighter, and 10 total levels, I'll be impressed.

[Amphetryon]

Do things like Water Orc count as a template, or simply a different race, for purposes of this exercise?

Also: Priority one is likely finding a cheap but sufficient way to gain fly.

Water Orc isn't a template, as I understand the term. Ditto any of the other 'environment' races.

There are viable races that grant Fly speed, along with affordable items and such.

@Baldin: No PrCs or multi-classing. This avoids "I have one level of fighter and and 9 levels of casting class" as an answer to the exercise.

Also, before anyone says it, UMD and/or "partially-charged wands" are not to be considered as a fighter's solution to this exercise. Find another way, or acknowledge that fighters can't win without casters' toys.

[Baldin]

Well i wasn't searching for 1 lvl figher/9cleric or smt cos that is not presige classing that is multiclassing, i was more looking for prc that gain no spell casting, but 10 fighter lvls it is.

[Aeryr]

I would probably go with an archer using loads of different arrows for different effects, of course the problem is that the book needed would be the Magic item compendium (for moar items) if leadership is not directly baned it can be used to get acces to some spellstored spellstoring arrows (through a caster). The objective would be to get the druid and the AC if possible unable to move in a silenced area. Then just kite him and shoot him hard.

[Baldin]

Doe it also mean both contestants start 100ft from eachother?

Honestly a steight up lvl 10 druid vs lvl 10 fighter the fighter can never win it, specialy if he can only pick 1 extra book.

Reasoning is that the druid can do all buffs he needs in the 15 mins and be in a large shape already while having a companion that is just as strong, if not stronger, than the fighter.

Also the druid has a higher movement speed which make it even harder for the fighter to do anything.

The only builds i could think of was eighter trip or ranged, however a druid in a large shape gets a +4 for size +4 for stability and has more strength then the fighter can get.

As for the Ranged build... Wind Wall and summons.

So with only feats the fighter wont get there.

ahwell hope someone proves me wrong.

cheers
baldin

[Antonok]

alternate class features allowed?

[Amphetryon]

Doe it also mean both contestants start 100ft from eachother?
Assuming they're standing on the ground. Given the prep time allowed, that's not necessarily true. They start within the confines of an open-air Colosseum of the given size, remember. Also, arguing that taking a PrC isn't multiclassing is disingenuous. It is multiclassing, it just doesn't incur any penalties for it by RAW. It's also moot, given that the parameters of the exercise specifically state fighter 10 vs Druid 10.


alternate class features allowed?Yep.

edit:
I would probably go with an archer using loads of different arrows for different effects, of course the problem is that the book needed would be the Magic item compendium (for moar items) if leadership is not directly baned it can be used to get acces to some spellstored spellstoring arrows (through a caster). The objective would be to get the druid and the AC if possible unable to move in a silenced area. Then just kite him and shoot him hard.Leadership is not banned, but any cohort or minion obtained via Leadership or similar may take no actions, not even free actions, once the prep-time clock starts, if they have any class levels - including NPC classes.

[Flickerdart]

I would recommend disallowing buff minutes. The Fighter cannot really benefit from that many buffs without people arguing that he depends too much on his buffs to win. I would propose either 1 round of buffing for the Druid and 2 for the Fighter, or none at all, plus effects that last all day.

[Aeryr]

Good to know. I suppose that I will present a build a ranged warrior black ops comando guy. Definetly going to use the MiC and Leadership to get spells into spellstoring arrows I hope that you deem it possible. :smallcool:

Edit: An hour of preparation is good for my warrior. I can work on that.

[candycorn]

I would probably go with an archer using loads of different arrows for different effects, of course the problem is that the book needed would be the Magic item compendium (for moar items) if leadership is not directly baned it can be used to get acces to some spellstored spellstoring arrows (through a caster). The objective would be to get the druid and the AC if possible unable to move in a silenced area. Then just kite him and shoot him hard.

How would you deal with a druid that starts 20-40 feet up, in the middle of a Fog Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fogCloud.htm)?

How would you get them unable to move? How would you silence them?

These are questions you'd need to answer.

[Aeryr]

A seeking spellstoring arrow with faerie fire (sepllstored) will do for hiting them if they are in a fog cloud.
An arrow with silence spellstored hiting a square nearby the position were they are will force them to a) be silenced and suck b) move and deal with it (getting out of the fog cloud and expending a move action so no summoning).

There are bombs in the MiC so you just force them to move wherever you want and book or keep using your imagination.

[Baldin]

About leadership, having spellcasters buff you in any way makes this not being a druid vs fighter but a druid vs fighter and spellcasters.

[Aeryr]

There are not so many spells that will last more than an hour that will not overlap with the fighter armor in the first place, I do not see where the buffing is going to be done, since it's been specified that it would had to be previous to those hours. The spellcaster is probably not going to do more than cheering from the crowd, the point on leadership with an spellcaster is justifiing getting spellstoring arrows with spells and not just say, hey, I found this nifty arrow with a spell already stored on it.

[Amphetryon]

About leadership, having spellcasters buff you in any way makes this not being a druid vs fighter but a druid vs fighter and spellcasters.

Yes, and? If the fighter can't win without the spellcasters, I'd say it's an argument for "the fighter can't win".

[candycorn]

A seeking spellstoring arrow with faerie fire (sepllstored) will do for hiting them if they are in a fog cloud.
An arrow with silence spellstored hiting a square nearby the position were they are will force them to a) be silenced and suck b) move and deal with it (getting out of the fog cloud and expending a move action so no summoning).


Seeking requires you aim at the correct square. There are 160 to choose from. Good luck. Even with Faerie Fire, you still won't see anything more than 5 feet away in fog. And it doesn't negate concealment from fog. Just illusion effects and darkness effects. Again, Good luck.

Spellstoring (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#spellStoring) requires you hit a creature to release the spell. Again, without hitting, Good Luck getting the Silence in the area.

Also: If the druid is riding a Dire Bat Animal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direBat.htm), he need not expend a move action to fly out. Further, at level 10, a druid with 13 Concentration ranks and a 12 Con can cast any spell from 0-5th level automatically.

So, we've established that there's almost no chance of hitting the druid in the fog, and even if you hit him with faerie fire, it won't stop him from hiding, and even if you hit him with silence, he can just fly up out of your attack range and wait for it to wear off.

I was at least hoping for Potions of Fly and a Blindfold of True Darkness, or somesuch. That would be SOMETHING.

[Antonok]

Just quickly thinking about it, I'd probably go raptoran with the fighter ACFs with either:

A: Flyby attack + Keen thundering falchion

B: Charge build with a lance

build type.

[Baldin]

Yes, and? If the fighter can't win without the spellcasters, I'd say it's an argument for "the fighter can't win".

It's an argument for the rules (which state a steight up druid vs fighter combat) and an argment for the fighter cant win.

Dont get me wrong im of the opinion that Tier 1 classes are way to strong and imo the druid is even stronger than that. I would love the fighter to win, but even with spell storing arrows he will not win this. Silence is no problem for a druid since he has all his buffs and can just go and wildshape anyway.

Besides the druid has a animal companion that can just grapple the fighter and the fighter will never win this.

[candycorn]

Just quickly thinking about it, I'd probably go raptoran with the fighter ACFs with either:

A: Flyby attack + Keen thundering falchion

B: Charge build with a lance

build type.

1) Flyers can't charge up (unless they have perfect maneuverability).
2) Dire Bats fly faster than Raptorans.

[CTrees]

edit:Leadership is not banned, but any cohort or minion obtained via Leadership or similar may take no actions, not even free actions, once the prep-time clock starts, if they have any class levels - including NPC classes.

Leadership for things with racial hit dice only, it is!

[Amphetryon]

It's an argument for the rules (which state a steight up druid vs fighter combat) and an argment for the fighter cant win.

Dont get me wrong im of the opinion that Tier 1 classes are way to strong and imo the druid is even stronger than that. I would love the fighter to win, but even with spell storing arrows he will not win this. Silence is no problem for a druid since he has all his buffs and can just go and wildshape anyway.

Besides the druid has a animal companion that can just grapple the fighter and the fighter will never win this.

What set of rules would you prefer? I'm reading this as a complaint without a proposed solution.

Sonofzeal has a thread of relatively recent origin arguing with maths that a fighter will have a better than average chance to out-grapple either the AC, or the druid. A grapple-focused AC would also run counter to candycorn's Dire Bat companion proposal, and may or may not be what the Druid is actually using. Remember, the druid's build is available on request. It's not a Schrodinger's druid vs Schrodinger's fighter exercise.

[candycorn]

Dont get me wrong im of the opinion that Tier 1 classes are way to strong and imo the druid is even stronger than that. I would love the fighter to win, but even with spell storing arrows he will not win this. Silence is no problem for a druid since he has all his buffs and can just go and wildshape anyway.

A well built anti-grappling fighter can stop grappling characters. Close-quarters Fighting, or stupid high strength and improved grapple.

Animal Companions are not as nasty as they're made out to be.

But silence isn't a problem, since spellstoring weapons must hit and damage a creature. Since arrows which hit their target are destroyed, that could put a crimp in their ability to cast their spell. Then again, even if it could, hit a druid in a fog cloud. Odds are slim, at best.

[candycorn]

Here's a druid (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=375598) that I whipped up quickly, using a Dire Bat as the Animal Companion.

It uses Spell Compendium as an extra book. Spells are not selected, but build is complete, including feats, items, skills, and applicable class features (such as animal companion feat and skill selection).

[Eldan]

1) Flyers can't charge up (unless they have perfect maneuverability).
2) Dire Bats fly faster than Raptorans.

Improved Flight is, I believe, in Races of the Wild too, so he could get to perfect by spending a few feats.

[candycorn]

Improved Flight is, I believe, in Races of the Wild too, so he could get to perfect by spending a few feats.

You also need to see your target at the start of your turn to charge. Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud.

[Eldan]

Hrm. If we could do two books, we could make him a Necropolitan Raptoran with Lifesight.

[candycorn]

Hrm. If we could do two books, we could make him a Necropolitan Raptoran with Lifesight.

Light doesn't go more than 5 feet in fog. You can't see anything over 5 feet away, including light. But you can bet if team druid gets a second book, it will not go better for the fighter side.

[deuxhero]

I'd try to figure out a way to get a (flying) mount fast enough to reach the druid in one charge with a charger (I notice you don't give starting distance).

[ShriekingDrake]

I think if you want to make it an actual fight where the outcome is less clear, you have the competitors teleported into the arena with no buff time (Druid gets the same spells he prepared yesterday), with full hit points, with all their belongings. The arena is a 20x20x10 with no way out until there is a winner.

In this scenario the fighter stands a chance, though still not a dominant one. A large, open air arena near a forested space and a cliff plays into the druid's strengths.

That said, I suspect your goal here is to make the best druid hunter you can. And while that's a fun objective, I think it will be difficult to build a fighter that isn't relying on a lot of luck to prevail.

[Antonok]

Improved Flight is, I believe, in Races of the Wild too, so he could get to perfect by spending a few feats.

Also note that Rapotrans with 10HD or more have a dive ability which works like a charge as long as they move atleast 30ft and descend atleast 10ft. So ya...



You also need to see your target at the start of your turn to charge. Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud.

Those also affect the druid as much as the fighter. And while your hiding behind them I'm staying at a range.

Even with a dire bat AC, the druid hiding in those can't do much, while the fighter can take on dire bat. With the quick trait applied to your flight speed, the raptoran is faster then the bat. So one or 2 charges should take care of the bat.

That just leaves the druid.

Now, just off the top of my head, using a greatsword with the diving charge feat out of the RotW and power attack with an 18 Str, thats 2d6+ 2d6+ 6+ 10 damage per charge.

Basically, this build can atleast be competitive with a druid 1v1.

Atleast thats the theory...

[Aeryr]

So... all the problem is shooting at the druid while he is at the fog cloud but he is going to get out ot there to cast a spell because of line of sight and line of effect. Why just won't you ready an action till he just does that? :smallconfused: He can summon creatures faster than you can kill them sure... just hide and snipe and wait. If the problem is waiting the warrior can just play it safe.

Also lol to the racial hit dice with leadership, thought the same, a mineral warrior guy to dig holes sounds nifty.

[Eldan]

The problem then becomes finding something to do for the fighter that is as good as the one spell the druid can fire off with Fly-by attack.

[candycorn]

So... all the problem is shooting at the druid while he is at the fog cloud but he is going to get out ot there to cast a spell because of line of sight and line of effect. Why just won't you ready an action till he just does that? :smallconfused: He can summon creatures faster than you can kill them sure... just hide and snipe and wait. If the problem is waiting the warrior can just play it safe.

Also lol to the racial hit dice with leadership, thought the same, a mineral warrior guy to dig holes sounds nifty.

The fighter can back off, yes. The druid can also take a single standard action shot in exchange for a spell... Or skirt the outer fog squares until he sees you, then lob a spell that gives you problems. Such as Warp Wood (personal favorite). Or Produce Flame (shared with AC).

All of these have over 100 foot range. All can give you a Bad Day, if you're an archer.

Warp Wood is a Will save or lose your ranged weapon.
Produce Flame is a pair of 120 ft range fire attacks every round.

[Amphetryon]

Necropolitan's a template, per Libris Mortis, and therefore out of bounds for this exercise, Eldan. Decent thought, though; I'd be strongly tempted to go Raptoran for the fighter, myself.

I appreciate your build, candycorn, but I stipulated I'd use Complete Divine as the extra book. My sheet will be up by tomorrow night at the latest (mutters about a presentation tomorrow).

[Antonok]

Necropolitan's a template, per Libris Mortis, and therefore out of bounds for this exercise, Eldan. Decent thought, though; I'd be strongly tempted to go Raptoran for the fighter, myself.

I appreciate your build, candycorn, but I stipulated I'd use Complete Divine as the extra book. My sheet will be up by tomorrow night at the latest (mutters about a presentation tomorrow).

More worried about the Complete Divine then Spell compendium tbh.

Augment Healing and Wild Feats make mean melee druids...

[candycorn]

I appreciate your build, candycorn, but I stipulated I'd use Complete Divine as the extra book. My sheet will be up by tomorrow night at the latest (mutters about a presentation tomorrow).
I understand you stipulated that. For your druid. That you build.

I also understand that you'd have a somewhat difficult time running against every fighter submission likely to come. The idea wasn't to supplant your build, but to offer a second alternative, since if half the posters here so far build a fighter, you'll have more than enough to deal with.

Druids are, from most to least important:
Full Casters
Wild Shapers
Bonded with an animal companion.

In other words, there's a lot of ways to build a druid. There's a lot of players building fighters. No need, and no sense, in being the only person with the kick ball. Just means there are less people that get to play the game.

And nobody wants that.

[Aeryr]

The fighter can back off, yes. The druid can also take a single standard action shot in exchange for a spell... Or skirt the outer fog squares until he sees you, then lob a spell that gives you problems. Such as Warp Wood (personal favorite). Or Produce Flame (shared with AC).

All of these have over 100 foot range. All can give you a Bad Day, if you're an archer.

Warp Wood is a Will save or lose your ranged weapon.
Produce Flame is a pair of 120 ft range fire attacks every round.

As an archer using magical arrows with normal bows I will sincerely appreciate if you were to waste all your 2 lvl spells destroying stupid bows. An efficient quiver can hold up to 6. Note that you can't target the arrows since they are in the quiver before you cast the spell, but sure, go ahead, make my day. Waste turns and spells.

two touch attacks a round for pure damage (2d6+20 a round) :smallconfused: Even a fighter can do better.

Edit: Well now that I think about that what animal trick did you taught the bat to be able to hurl FIRE from its pawns at people. Animal companions are animals, hurling fire would freak out the poor bat and I cannot imagine an animal trick to make him actually do it.

[Mystify]

As an archer using magical arrows with normal bows I will sincerely appreciate if you were to waste all your 2 lvl spells destroying stupid bows. An efficient quiver can hold up to 6. Nor can you target the arrows since they are in the quiver before you cast the spell, but sure, go ahead, make my day. Waste turns and spells.

two touch attacks a round for pure damage (2d6+20 a round) :smallconfused: Even a fighter can do better.

Are you really saying that magic arrows on mundane bows would be valid strategy outside of a contest like this? If you have to spend a lot of wealth on consumables to take down the equal level opponent that is not a valid long-term strategy.

And a druid could dispel your efficient quiver most of the time. Goodluck shooting arrows when they are in an inaccessible extra dimensional space.

[Aeryr]

Imo magic arrows are always more cost eficient than bows since you can get much more diverse enhancements making them more useful in different situations it is not like he is going to blow everything in magic arrows. But the best magic enhancement for a bow, splitting, is not in the MiC so magic bows is not a huge interest for the warrior concept that I have in mind.

It is not like he is going to shoot every magic arrow that he has just use them to give him a push if certain conditions are met.

[candycorn]

As an archer using magical arrows with normal bows I will sincerely appreciate if you were to waste all your 2 lvl spells destroying stupid bows. An efficient quiver can hold up to 6. Note that you can't target the arrows since they are in the quiver before you cast the spell, but sure, go ahead, make my day. Waste turns and spells.

two touch attacks a round for pure damage (2d6+20 a round) :smallconfused: Even a fighter can do better.

Edit: Well now that I think about that what animal trick did you taught the bat to be able to hurl FIRE from its pawns at people. Animal companions are animals, hurling fire would freak out the poor bat and I cannot imagine an animal trick to make him actually do it.

Speak With animal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakWithAnimals.htm)

It's friendly. Throwing fire is a service.

Also, you're offering strategies that no sane player would use, and then trying to argue mental state of an animal.

You know what trick you need to make an animal use the range attack ability granted it? ATTACK. I don't recall any specific rules regarding the "freaking out" of animals with spell effects on them.


Imo magic arrows are always more cost eficient than bows since you can get much more diverse enhancements making them more useful in different situations it is not like he is going to blow everything in magic arrows. But the best magic enhancement for a bow, splitting, is not in the MiC so magic bows is not a huge interest for the warrior concept that I have in mind.

It is not like he is going to shoot every magic arrow that he has just use them to give him a push if certain conditions are met.
In that case, I'd like to point you to DMG, p.199.

"If you're playing a one-shot random dungeon, one use items cost 5 times their normal price."

That includes Magic Arrows.

So, 10 +1 arrows will run you as much as a +1 bow.

[Amphetryon]

In that case, I'd like to point you to DMG, p.199.

"If you're playing a one-shot random dungeon, one use items cost 5 times their normal price."

That includes Magic Arrows.

So, 10 +1 arrows will run you as much as a +1 bow.
Relevant quote on WBL is relevant.

[Mystify]

Imo magic arrows are always more cost eficient than bows since you can get much more diverse enhancements making them more useful in different situations it is not like he is going to blow everything in magic arrows. But the best magic enhancement for a bow, splitting, is not in the MiC so magic bows is not a huge interest for the warrior concept that I have in mind.

It is not like he is going to shoot every magic arrow that he has just use them to give him a push if certain conditions are met.
it only takes 50 arrows for the bow to give more value. It is useful to supplement the bow with specialized arrows for cases where you need them, but neglecting the bow in favor of magic arrows is a very inefficient way to go about things. You burn through wealth very quickly.



In that case, I'd like to point you to DMG, p.199.

"If you're playing a one-shot random dungeon, one use items cost 5 times their normal price."

That includes Magic Arrows.

So, 10 +1 arrows will run you as much as a +1 bow.

Ah, very useful rule. Thank you, I'll have to remember that one.

[Aeryr]

Okay, I am surely insane I hereby support your claims: a druid is clearly better than a fighter.

This argument will only lead to bitter feelings and I do not really believe that being angry over something that happens on the internet is a good idea.

If my insane idea of tactics angered you I sincerely apologize. I was only trying to point out how I would play If I were to play a fighter vs druid encounter on the fighter side. I did believe it challenging and interesting now I do not believe it worth my time.

Good luck to whoever accept the challenge. Good luck to the druids too, even if they probably don't need it at all.

[deuxhero]

I think if you want to make it an actual fight where the outcome is less clear, you have the competitors teleported into the arena with no buff time (Druid gets the same spells he prepared yesterday), with full hit points, with all their belongings. The arena is a 20x20x10 with no way out until there is a winner.


If that was the official rule, I would make a build that exploited items too large to carry (houses).

[candycorn]

Okay, I am surely insane I hereby support your claims: a druid is clearly better than a fighter.

This argument will only lead to bitter feelings and I do not really believe that being angry over something that happens on the internet is a good idea.

If my insane idea of tactics angered you I sincerely apologize. I was only trying to point out how I would play If I were to play a fighter vs druid encounter on the fighter side. I did believe it challenging and interesting now I do not believe it worth my time.

Good luck to whoever accept the challenge. Good luck to the druids too, even if they probably don't need it at all.

I...just get the feeling that you are adding your tactics AFTER the attack is suggested. If nobody mentioned Warp Wood, you'd have had a magic bow.

But even then, how many bows would someone really have? 2? 5? 8? At some point, you see the guy walking around with more bows than are typically stored in a small keep, and you have to wonder for a second....

And if they're each composite bows? Each Bow sized for +2 strength runs 300 gp. That starts adding up pretty quickly.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

In other words, there's a lot of ways to build a druid. There's a lot of players building fighters. No need, and no sense, in being the only person with the kick ball. Just means there are less people that get to play the game.

And nobody wants that.

I think your missing the base theory behind this exercise; one generalist druid build can beat allllllll the specialized fighters. The only purpose to a second druid build would serve would be to weaken team druid since now you're claiming either of these 2 generalist druids can beat any fighter build, unless your stacking the deck against the fighter expecting one fighter build to beat both druids.

Either way it goes against the OP's intent.

Thinking about putting together a fighter build or two. I'll need to find multiple complementary tricks in a single book to do it though and that seems to lean toward MIC which I'm not intimately familiar with. I'll definitively be waiting for the druid build before I commit to a tactic.


I...just get the feeling that you are adding your tactics AFTER the attack is suggested. If nobody mentioned Warp Wood, you'd have had a magic bow.

This is a perfectly acceptable tactic in this exercise. This is a real Druid vs Schrodinger's Fighter. If his spell list is included then having 1 more non magical bow than he has warp wood spells is a valid tactic. These builds are all going to be built as druid hunters and should be prepared for basic druid tactics. Any discussion about tactics and changing them based on this thread accurately represents our druid killers researching and hearing anecdotes about less prepared warriors that failed.

[candycorn]

I think your missing the base theory behind this exercise; one generalist druid build can beat allllllll the specialized fighters. The only purpose to a second druid build would serve would be to weaken team druid since now you're claiming either of these 2 generalist druids can beat any fighter build, unless your stacking the deck against the fighter expecting one fighter build to beat both druids.

Either way it goes against the OP's intent.No, it doesn't. I'm saying that I don't think any fighter build will beat any druid build. Offering more than one way to build a druid offers different challenges for the fighters. If a fighter wants to build to fight the Wildshaper, then he goes against that one. If he wants to build to fight the spell-based druid, then he builds to fight that one. Frankly, I consider team fighter to have proven a point if even one fighter beats even one druid.

And that's the OP's intent.


Thinking about putting together a fighter build or two. I'll need to find multiple complementary tricks in a single book to do it though and that seems to lean toward MIC which I'm not intimately familiar with. I'll definitively be waiting for the druid build before I commit to a tactic.
Build two. You see my build already. As a spell list can change daily, it's the only thing I haven't selected. I've given the available sources I may choose from (SRD + Spell Compendium), and expect any fighter player to review that, to represent anecdotal tales of druids filtering back to him. I also intend to change the spell list from fight to fight (I do not need to know the fighter character build, I just like switching things up from time to time, using different tactics).


This is a perfectly acceptable tactic in this exercise. This is a real Druid vs Schrodinger's Fighter. If his spell list is included then having 1 more non magical bow than he has warp wood spells is a valid tactic. These builds are all going to be built as druid hunters and should be prepared for basic druid tactics. Any discussion about tactics and changing them based on this thread accurately represents our druid killers researching and hearing anecdotes about less prepared warriors that failed.Changing them based on this thread is fine. I just find it...absurd... to see someone claim it's standard practice.

No matter how prepared a fighter is, or how many tales he's heard, he has no way of knowing the druid's spell loadout before a fight, short of divination. If it was a wizard with a spellbook? Sure. After all, he can hear about all the spells the wizard has used. If it's a sorceror? Sure. Same thing. But Clerics and Druids can select from every legal spell, and completely change, day to day.

To reflect that, letting the fighter know the legal list (all sources druid is drawing from) represents anecdotal tales. From there, the fighter can evaluate spells, and see which spells need to be countered, and guess on the spell list.

Because a druid's spell list is Schroedinger. The only thing I ask is that the fighter builds not be shown to the druid player(s). The fighter may not know the druid's exact spell loadout, but the druid should not be able to choose that loadout based on fighter weaknesses.

[Amphetryon]

No, it doesn't. I'm saying that I don't think any fighter build will beat any druid build. Offering more than one way to build a druid offers different challenges for the fighters. If a fighter wants to build to fight the Wildshaper, then he goes against that one. If he wants to build to fight the spell-based druid, then he builds to fight that one. Frankly, I consider team fighter to have proven a point if even one fighter beats even one druid.

And that's the OP's intent.Is it? I don't recall having stated that intent.

Edit:
Note the questions at the end of the first post, as indication of intent:


Is it really possible to build a fighter capable of defeating a druid in these conditions? How would you go about it? What odds would you give the fighter?

[ShriekingDrake]

If that was the official rule, I would make a build that exploited items too large to carry (houses).

Smirk. Whether it were the fighter or the druid who used that plan, it would benefit the fighter because while both characters would be squished, at least the fighter would not be the only dead one.

[candycorn]

Is it really possible to build a fighter capable of defeating a druid in these conditions?

I'd wager that no matter who built the druid, the question would be answered equally well.


How would you go about it?Depends on the build of the druid, which is a point I have illustrated. You fight a wild shaping hulk differently than you fight an elusive caster differently than you fight a mounted fleshraker charger. Different fighter builds go after each way, and you can't represent what a druid is with a single build.


What odds would you give the fighterWith knowledge of the build, multiple druids, to allow the fighter player to select the one he's most comfortable fighting, and prior discussion of common druid tactics?

1 in 10 odds.

With only one druid? 1 in 20.
Without foreknowledge of the druid build? 1 in 25.
With no knowledge whatsoever, going in blind, and not optimized specifically for druid fighting? 1 in 100.

Bottom line: Allowing the fighter to also choose opponent gives the fighter even more freedom in rigging the odds against the druid, and I doubt it will be enough, even then.