Familicide Mega-Thread

[Super_slash2]

Sheriff: Please post issues raised by a single, recent comic in the numbered comic thread that The Giant posts when each new comic goes up. Please read the existing threads for similar topics before posting a new thread. This thread now contains something like seven or eight separate threads on familicide and related issues. It's probably a mess.

I have two questions about the comic I don't quite understand.

1) If Familicide kills everyone who shares the bloodline with the ABD, how can there be 3/4th of the black dragon population left? Shouldn't every black dragon be dead?



2) Is it likely to assume Girard turned himself into that statue to protect the gate, since he felt so strongly about how Kraagor had been turned to stone in protecting that gate? It might make some poetic sense if abit irrational. Does it seem in keeping with what we know of him?

[Ravian]

Number 1 has been debated to death on the official thread, but I believe that there is a limit to how many Familicide can kill, after all it's called Familicide, not Genocide.

Most likely due to how the world was created by the gods, Tiamet would have started with multiple dragons of all kinds, and these dragons were not necessarily related to one another. Over the course of history, these dragons bred with one another, and they were connected enough that one-fourth of the population could be part of the bloodline of a given dragon, or else related to someone who is part of said dragon's bloodline.

As for two, this is less debated to death, and would be an interesting element, but its still all give or take and there's no definate proof either way

[NerfTW]

It's reasonable to assume that the first question will be answered and explained in time.

As for your theory, that does sound like something he'd do, to insure that if anything did happen, they can change him back to help.

[Ravian]

Also I don't think Kragor was actually turned to stone, that would presumably only take a stone to flesh or a Break Enchantment to reverse. I find it more likely he died or got sucked through the rift and the statue was a memorial to commemorate him. The theory is still valid though

[Super_slash2]

Oh. Admittedly I knew (and still know) very little about the rules of the game but I was always under the impression that Kraagor was turned to stone by the gate-sealing ritual. The way Lirian and Dorukan told them to move or they'd get hit by the spell but Soon urged them to cast it as soon as possible accompanied by how Girard blamed Soon for Kraagor's death and them crying in front of the statue always made me think that Kraagor got turned into the statue. The reason they couldn't undo it was because they needed to beat the opposing roll made by both Dorukan and Lirian combined (thus proving how little I know about the game). It's also why I just assumed that Kraagor's statue was the item used to keep the gate sealed.

I guess this is one of the few times knowing the rules of the game is actually required.

[factotum]

Oh. Admittedly I knew (and still know) very little about the rules of the game but I was always under the impression that Kraagor was turned to stone by the gate-sealing ritual.

It would be an impressive spell that not only turned Kraagor to stone, but provided a nicely-shaped plinth for his stone form to rest on... :smallwink:

In any case, the problem with Kraagor being so close to the rift was presumably that he got sealed inside it along with the Snarl when the spell was cast, not that it would turn him to stone (which is a pretty easy thing to fix in D&D anyway).

[Tass]

Most likely due to how the world was created by the gods, Tiamet would have started with multiple dragons of all kinds, and these dragons were not necessarily related to one another. Over the course of history, these dragons bred with one another, and they were connected enough that one-fourth of the population could be part of the bloodline of a given dragon, or else related to someone who is part of said dragon's bloodline.

The funny thing is that this means that in a species with a higher rate of reproduction a larger proportion would have been killed.

[Cronos988]

The funny thing is that this means that in a species with a higher rate of reproduction a larger proportion would have been killed.

Erm, it does?
If we start at 4 dragons and each has 9 Descendants, one Familicide will kill a total of 10 dragons, which is 1/4th.
If we start at 4 Deagons and each has 99 Descendants, one Familicide will kill a total of 100 Dragons, which is still 1/4th.

The statement is only accurate if V actually calculated how many "base" dragons there have been, and the lower the reproduction rate, the more "unrelated" dragons there were. Which interestingly enough means that V knows both the reproduction rate of black dragons and the age of the world.

It's highly inaccurate anyways, since once the dragons interbreed, 2 family trees "fuse" in respect to the familicide spell, which means that it should be impossible to guess the number of killed dragons just based on the rate of reproduction.

[leakingpen]

I think it's just children of, not mother father brother sister. literally, just those descended from the target of the spell in question.

[NerfTW]

I think it's just children of, not mother father brother sister. literally, just those descended from the target of the spell in question.

Then how would that have fixed the problem of the parent coming after V, which was the whole point of the situation in the first place. If it was descended, then the spell would have done nothing, unless this was a particularly fertile dragon.

From the comic in question, the ABD says she only has one child, the dragon V killed.

The actual wording V uses is:



Every living creature that directly shares your bloodline is dead. Every living creature that is directly related to any of those creatures is also dead. Anyone who could possibly make a claim to be part of your family is gone now.

This is pretty clearly not just her child, but her direct family, plus anyone directly related to that direct family.

[martianmister]

Tiamat probably created many different dragons, so they are not related to each other by bloodline.

[veti]

Erm, it does?
If we start at 4 dragons and each has 9 Descendants, one Familicide will kill a total of 10 dragons, which is 1/4th.
If we start at 4 Deagons and each has 99 Descendants, one Familicide will kill a total of 100 Dragons, which is still 1/4th.

You're assuming no intermingling of families, which is - not a reasonable assumption. The more generations go by, the more the family tree spreads. I've seen it estimated that around two-thirds of the population of Europe is descended from the Roman Emperor Nero.

Assuming the race didn't start from a single common ancestor, a slower reproductive rate would help to limit the damage.

[lindorm]

I've seen it estimated that around two-thirds of the population of Europe is descended from the Roman Emperor Nero.
Quite the feat considering Nero only had one child. And she died as an infant.

[Fish]

It works the way Rich says it works. How is that? He hasn't said.

[SavageWombat]

I've seen it estimated that around two-thirds of the population of Europe is descended from the Roman Emperor Nero.


I think you're thinking of Genghis Khan.

[King of Nowhere]

There are genetic evidence that all mankind is descendent from a single woman. and we all descend from some bacteria at some point. I don't think familicide would have an unlimited generational range. Maybe it kill only if you are related back to ten generations or somesuch.
Let's take the quote "every living creature that directly shares your bloodline is dead. every living creature that is directly related to any of those creatures is also dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html)"
the way i read it, "shares your bloodline" means having a common ancestor. But it must stop somewhere along the line, or it would wipe out every lifeform.
It also appears to not give any saving throw. No idea on the mechanics.

As for 2), I've wondered that myself. Maybe it was a contingency "if I'm going to die, turn me to stone before it happens". Or maybe he turned himself to stone because he was going to die of old age soon, but if he stayed stoned he could be reanimated for a shor time in case of dire need, before being stoned again to preserve him for future use. Or maybe he disguised himself as a statue, and has some magic that protected him from familicide. Or who knows what.
But yes, the way the statue is put there with a hasty comment from Roy, really looks like an attempt to pass an impotant detail as part of the scenery. In fact, there's one panel whose sole function in the comic is to show the statue. So I would definitely say it's important. It don't mean it's girard, it could be important for other reasons.

[Wrecan]

1) If Familicide kills everyone who shares the bloodline with the ABD, how can there be 3/4th of the black dragon population left? Shouldn't every black dragon be dead?
The OOTSiverse did not evolve over millions of years. It was created less than 1200 years ago by gods taking turns adding elements to it. Tiamat added a variety of dragons. There's no reason to believe she did it in Adam-and-Eve style. She may have dropped a few dozen black dragons on the world, and through twelve centuries of interbreeding (which isn't a whole lot in dragon years, since ancient dragons are 800-1000 years old), one-quarter of the descendants shared a common ancestor with the ABD, and three-quarters did not.

Given the age of the OOTSiverse, there shouldn't even be any dragons in the Great Wyrm age category. The world simply isn't old enough.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Given the age of the OOTSiverse, there shouldn't even be any dragons in the Great Wyrm age category. The world simply isn't old enough.

Omphalos theory: some of them were created already at the Great Wyrm age, or close enough to it. Remember, in OotS, it is not a logical impossibility that the gods created the beings with appearance of age.

Edit: Re: familicide, I'd say that it stops at about 7th degrees of separation (i.e. "7 times removed"), and that the fact that dragons reproduce so slowly is what saved 3/4ths of the species. Had they mixed their lines more, more would have died. On the other hand, a lot more would've been around to survive, I suppose, so for all I know the fraction would stay pretty consistent.

Grey Wolf

[psijac]

Did the gods create the All planes of reality or just the Prime material plane? Its possible that dragons could have existed else where in the multiverse before the snarl

[Winter Light]

I honestly doubt that the Giant made a hard-and-fast set of rules for how far Familicide reaches. It stands up to scrutiny pretty well at a glance.

For example: While Grey Wolf and I almost certainly share some ancestor within the history of humanity, I would not say I am "related" to him. Nor would I say I am "related" to the President of the United States.

I imagine it has some "range", such as grandparents/children, cousins, and so on, of the victim, and then hits everyone within that "range" of all the victims.

So while there might be people with dead relatives, the original victim would, in fact, have nobody who could claim to share their bloodline, as advertised.

[Wrecan]

Omphalos theory: some of them were created already at the Great Wyrm age, or close enough to it.
Good point. Which makes it even less likely all black dragons had a single progenitor.

[SavageWombat]

As a story teller, I would certainly have imagined Tiamat creating more than one black dragon at the outset.

As to their age - created old is perfectly viable. But we do have evidence that clerics were all created at 1st level, and not higher than that. Make of that what you will.

[JCarter426]

I just want to point out that there is no evidence the universe is less than 1200 years old, for the same reason there's no evidence this universe is only 2012 years old. And Intelligent Design does (supposedly) incorporate evolution. Additionally, we know that elements such as chlorine and titanium exist, which suggests the universe has similar physical properties to ours, and evolved in a similar - if different - manner.

[Kish]

I think it's just children of, not mother father brother sister. literally, just those descended from the target of the spell in question.
Then the spell 1) would function nothing like described and 2) the one time Vaarsuvius cast it, would have done exactly nothing, since he cast it on a dragon whose sole child died without ever reproducing.

[KillianHawkeye]

I just want to point out that there is no evidence the universe is less than 1200 years old, for the same reason there's no evidence this universe is only 2012 years old. And Intelligent Design does (supposedly) incorporate evolution. Additionally, we know that elements such as chlorine and titanium exist, which suggests the universe has similar physical properties to ours, and evolved in a similar - if different - manner.

lolwut?

First of all, there IS geological, zoological, and archaeological evidence that the Earth is millions of years old (to say nothing of the entire universe).

Secondly, the current year being 2012 has nothing to do with the age of anything. It's just the calendar that's in standard use today. Other calendars have existed before and have had different countings of the years.

I apologize. I massively misread the intent behind your post.

[JCarter426]

Yes, that's what I was saying. :smallconfused:

[Moglorosh]

lolwut?

First of all, there IS geological, zoological, and archaeological evidence that the Earth is millions of years old (to say nothing of the entire universe).

Secondly, the current year being 2012 has nothing to do with the age of anything. It's just the calendar that's in standard use today. Other calendars have existed before and have had different countings of the years.

Good thing we aren't talking about our universe there skippy.

[Crisis21]

This is pretty clearly not just her child, but her direct family, plus anyone directly related to that direct family.

I personally think that this is probably what happened to Penelope, Tarquin's 9th wife.

[SavageWombat]

842 should show Mama Dragon why she shouldn't be so tolerant of who her children dates.

[snikrept]

#2 is an excellent suggestion!

"In case of emergency, break flesh to stone enchantment"



Also, it's a good thing Tarquin and Penelope didn't have any kids or Tarquin would also be toast. And ELAN would be toast (!!)

[Mo_the_Hawked]

Also, it's a good thing Tarquin and Penelope didn't have any kids or Tarquin would also be toast. And ELAN would be toast (!!)

How do you figure? Bloodlines don't transition to mates.

[gallagher]

If Girard, an epic-level sorcerer, were capable of making the save against familicide, he would still be around to help resist Team Evil. i do not know where he is (possibly deep in the maze of illusions, as well as probably a quite literal maze that one would have to Track through, or maybe searching for the cause of his entire family's death) but until i see a body, or some proof that he died before the familicide, i am holding out hope that the Order will finally meet one of the original gatekeepers. that way they may be able to learn how to strengthen or rebuild a gate

[JCarter426]

If dragons can't resist it, I'd say no. Consider V's effective level at the time.

[pearl jam]

Tarquin and Penelope having a child together would not change the fact that Tarquin is not a blood relation of Penelope and certainly wouldn't change the fact that Elan is not a blood relation of Penelope.

[Echonian]

I was hoping he would be alive, but after this strip I find it incredibly unlikely.

The only way he wouldn't have died of old age by now is if he used magic to extend his life, or similar. That is possible, but not bulletproof.

The only way he wouldn't have been killed by familicide is with epic-level defenses up against it - which is far less likely. I would say that he simply made a save, but I find that incredibly unlikely considering how many dragons were killed with it (and V's reaction to the family tree).

The real nail in the coffin for me, however, is the fact that the spells had not been re-cast (or reworked, or bodies moved). If he was still alive, he would most certainly have known about the death of his family by now. That goes for any other large section of his clan, for that matter.

If he was killed by familicide, then he likely can not be resurrected to help defend as extending his life via magic would have put him long past the limit of resurrection occurring during a characters natural lifespan (as I remember it). No matter how he is dead though, some way to contact him in the afterlife would be the smartest move right now. If only to ask him the best way to defend it, and get any information they can about the gate (assuming they can get any of his trust after this, obviously).

[gallagher]

If dragons can't resist it, I'd say no. Consider V's effective level at the time.

do splices add to your caster level, or do you just take the caster level of the soul you spliced for that spell?

also, Girard is epic, and likely loaded with epic items. as an illusionist, he probably has an item or two to boost his will save to be able to see through the illusions of others? and who is to say that any of those other dragons were capable of making the save?

[skaddix]

Sure he is Epic but I doubt he is the same level as Familicide's creator, she is the most powerful spellcaster that the IFCC has by a fair deal.

[Math_Mage]

The only way I can see Girard surviving the Familicide is if he's actually the statue with a trigger-effect Stone to Flesh lying around, as some have speculated. But we'll see, I guess.

EDIT: Technically, Haerta was only the strongest of the three contributed splices, and the COMBINED splices with V represented the greatest ever concentration of arcane might. But you're probably right.

[Fish]

The spell works the way Rich wants it to. For all we know, the only person who got a saving throw was Mama Dragon — if she failed hers, all her relatives died.

[JCarter426]

do splices add to your caster level, or do you just take the caster level of the soul you spliced for that spell?
I'm going to second "it works the way Rich wants it to". He made up the soul splices too. But Redcloak was unable to overcome V's caster level. Xykon, being epic, managed to break through, however. Dude's frickin' scary.

also, Girard is epic, and likely loaded with epic items. as an illusionist, he probably has an item or two to boost his will save to be able to see through the illusions of others? and who is to say that any of those other dragons were capable of making the save?
Assuming they'd get a save, dragon saves are way more than a sorcerer's. If they couldn't, he couldn't. Maybe the more distantly related you are to the victim, the easier it is to save... but that wouldn't explain why Girard's descendents, some of whom might also be epic, would be dead. And if I were designing it, if anyone did save, the spell would stop at them - their descendents wouldn't be killed. Not saying it must work like that... that's just what makes the most sense to me.

Unless Girard has a specific item that shields him from it, or was technically not alive at the time (due to being on another plane, or stone, or something), I'd say it's unlikely he could survive.

[olthar]

I'm going to second "it works the way Rich wants it to". He made up the soul splices too. But Redcloak was unable to overcome V's caster level. Xykon, being epic, managed to break through, however. Dude's frickin' scary. That was also after Haerta broke free.

[phantomreader42]

If there is a defense against Familicide, it would have to be epic-level.

If there is some spell or magic item that can protect against such a powerful and specific act of necromancy, it would have to be epically powerful.

And if anyone would prepare a defense against such a spell, they'd a have to be insanely paranoid. Which is one of the few things we know about Girard.

[Squirrel_Token]

The spell works the way Rich wants it to. For all we know, the only person who got a saving throw was Mama Dragon — if she failed hers, all her relatives died.

Except that doesn't make intuitive sense; so in that case, somebody could kill off, say, a god by finding one of their children who is a baby and casting familicide on them? Sure, the Giant COULD make it work that way, if he decided that the universe hates the OotS (a possibility which I suppose is not entirely implausible).

I have to imagine there was some sort of save to familicide. It would likely require an insanely high save, which probably could only be made by an epic spellcaster like Girard. If none of the dragons that we saw die were epic (fairly plausible, given how extraordinarily rare an epic character is), it's entirely reasonable to think that it was simply mathematically impossible for them to make the save.

[Kuulvheysoon]

There's another possibility:

What if Draketooth (the original) has transcended his mortality and become a demilich? That'd explain why he didn't know about his entire family dying, and how he could have survived (undead being immune to most death effects).

[Silfir]

Possibly, especially with the bonus you get for having been transmuted into a statue at the time. Could make him quasi-unlife, with a bonus or immunity to death magic.

[Porthos]

Sure, I think there's a chance. I've been saying as much ever since the last strip went up. He could have cast some sort of Quickened Uber Protection spell , but only had time to cast it on himself,.

Now why hasn't Girard, if he is still alive, spent any time dealing with the bodies/manning the defenses?

Simple.

He's down below with what little resources he has left protecting his Gate from the unholy smackdown that he KNOWS is coming.

And he doesn't dare contact the outside work right now, because, well, it's not paranoia if in fact they really ARE out to get you. And as far as he in concerned, they most certainly are right now.

Remember, he knows that three gates have exploded. Two within a couple of months of each other. If he survived, he might also know that his frontline defense of "Gate, What Gate? There Ain't No Gate Here, Suckers" has been breached.

In short he might be downstairs getting prepared to bring a world of hurt to whoever dares walk into his chambers.

...

Or maybe he's now just a broken husk of a man, drooling off in a corner somewhere after seeing all his dreams and plans come to ruination. That could work too. :smallwink:

[Chess Tyrant]

Unless Girard has a specific item that shields him from it, or was technically not alive at the time (due to being on another plane, or stone, or something), I'd say it's unlikely he could survive.

My guess is a specific spell - he's spent the last (how many?) decades camped out in the desert without particularly much to do, so he designed a defensive ward spell that protects him against assassination spells like Familicide. It'd probably also work against stuff like Soul Dominion or Demise Unseen, if not all save-or-die or no-save spells.... The precise details don't matter much, as long as it blocks Familicide.

I don't think he's already dead, since his picture seems to be highlighted on the family tree, as if to represent his current leadership of the clan.

[Math_Mage]

There's another possibility:

What if Draketooth (the original) has transcended his mortality and become a demilich? That'd explain why he didn't know about his entire family dying, and how he could have survived (undead being immune to most death effects).

The unspeakable (and numerous) steps required for such a transcendence makes this WMG material at best.

[Falcon777]

Barring Gerrard having some very powerful way of extending his lifespan (being a descendent of a dragon perhaps?), he is dead from old age. Consider two cases: Dorukan, who as one of Gerrard's partying associates, bought the farm when he was old. His apprentice (Roy's dad), bought the farm when HE was old. Onto the second case: Soon gave up his position to Hinjo's dad when he was old. Hinjo died when HE was old. Or Hojo, or whatever his name is, you get the point.

[Chess Tyrant]

Before the old-age discussion gets out of hand, I'd like to refer everyone to the Fortify (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fortify_(Epic_Spell_Seed))spell seed. It can increase the target's maximum lifespan, with a Spellcraft DC of 17 +2 per year extended. Assuming Girard uses his lower-level allies as aids in ritual casting, he could have a really high Sepllcraft check. He could easily live fifty years past his natural lifespan, if not more.

[phantomreader42]

I have to imagine there was some sort of save to familicide. It would likely require an insanely high save, which probably could only be made by an epic spellcaster like Girard. If none of the dragons that we saw die were epic (fairly plausible, given how extraordinarily rare an epic character is), it's entirely reasonable to think that it was simply mathematically impossible for them to make the save.

How would that save be calculated? The usual save for a spell is 10 + Spell level + caster's ability modifier + any specific save DC bonuses.

I think epic spells count as tenth-level. An epic necromancer would probably have some bonuses with necromancy, but we don't know how much, and we don't know if the INT of the splices stack.

If the INT bonuses stack, then I'd expect each of the wizards to have at least 20 INT without equipment, but being dead they wouldn't have any equipment. The sorcerer in the splice didn't seem particularly smart, and "dumb sorcerer" is a running gag in OotS. But even still that gives a +10 to the DC from the spliced wizards, not counting V's own INT, which would have the usual magical enhancement. The DC could easily get beyond 50.

[jaybird]

Sorry, but...where does it say it's a Will to negate spell? If it's Fort to negate, well...anything a dragon's not passing, a full arcane caster definitely won't pass.

[Math_Mage]

Before the old-age discussion gets out of hand, I'd like to refer everyone to the Fortify (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fortify_(Epic_Spell_Seed))spell seed. It can increase the target's maximum lifespan, with a Spellcraft DC of 17 +2 per year extended. Assuming Girard uses his lower-level allies as aids in ritual casting, he could have a really high Sepllcraft check. He could easily live fifty years past his natural lifespan, if not more.

Considering that Dorukan was still around less than a year before the start of the strip (don't get all "SoD spoilers" on me, it's in the main strip too :smallwink:), Girard still being around by the same means (use of this seed or simple longevity) certainly should not be discounted.

[Porthos]

Barring Gerrard having some very powerful way of extending his lifespan (being a descendent of a dragon perhaps?), he is dead from old age. Consider two cases: Dorukan, who as one of Gerrard's partying associates, bought the farm when he was old. His apprentice (Roy's dad), bought the farm when HE was old. Onto the second case: Soon gave up his position to Hinjo's dad when he was old. Hinjo died when HE was old. Or Hojo, or whatever his name is, you get the point.

There is no connection between Dorukan and Roy's dad. :smallconfused:

Plus the very fact that Dorukan was alive just before the strip started (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) points to the possibility that Girard is still alive. Or was, at least.

[FujinAkari]

Uh... dumb question... but isn't the save DC on a spell completely unrelated to your caster level? It is just spell level + primary casting stat, right? Why would the splices matter?

[SaintRidley]

Barring Gerrard having some very powerful way of extending his lifespan (being a descendent of a dragon perhaps?), he is dead from old age. Consider two cases: Dorukan, who as one of Gerrard's partying associates, bought the farm when he was old. His apprentice (Roy's dad), bought the farm when HE was old. Onto the second case: Soon gave up his position to Hinjo's dad when he was old. Hinjo died when HE was old. Or Hojo, or whatever his name is, you get the point.

Eugene never met Dorukon.

Dorukon didn't die of old age but of Xykon attack.

And, as noted with Girard, epic spellcaster.



Uh... dumb question... but isn't the save DC on a spell completely unrelated to your caster level? It is just spell level + primary casting stat, right? Why would the splices matter?

Haerta's casting stat might be higher than V's, making the DC save DC higher.

People also speculating about stacking the casting stat bonus from each splice, which is a bit silly.

However, if you want to increase the save of a spell manually, it's a +2 (I think) spellcraft DC increase to cast the spell for each +1 you want on the save DC.

And Haerta certainly is using her spellcraft ranks here.

[Porthos]

Uh... dumb question... but isn't the save DC on a spell completely unrelated to your caster level? It is just spell level + primary casting stat, right? Why would the splices matter?

The base save of an Epic Spell is 20 + casting stat, yes. But you can pump up said save if you want. All you have to do is have a higher Spellcraft Check. Which is where, presumably, the splices come in.

[Chess Tyrant]

Uh... dumb question... but isn't the save DC on a spell completely unrelated to your caster level? It is just spell level + primary casting stat, right? Why would the splices matter?

Yes - V's caster level had nothing to do with the spell's save DC. I think.

It does matter against spell resistance, though, which is probably why it was able to wipe out so many black dragons with high SR. And it means if Girard had enough SR to block the spell, he'd need to have a Spellcraft check some ways into three digits.

[Falcon777]

My apologies for mixing up Dorukan and Fyron. And as I said, Gerrard would need SOME kind of life extending spell/mechanism/whatever you want to use. I never said it would be hard to aquire.

[Dig]

One way to defend a MacGuffin for a long period of time would be to have your highest-level defender stand on a pedestal nearby with Flesh to Stone on them, and make sure future generations of defenders know how to cast Stone to Flesh in a grave emergency.

Superior to cyrogenic freezing - faster and drier!

[Geordnet]

Without knowing how Familicide works, anything goes so far as saves. How do we know that, for instance, the save doesn't get easier the more distant a relative to the target you are? And there's always the chance of a natural 20...

All we know is that the Draketooth clan got hit hard enough to kill most of its members, but that doesn't mean the 'shockwave' was necessarily strong enough to kill Girard himself, regardless if it was at 'full strength' or not.

Personally, I wouldn't be so sure he was dead until we see the body -and probably not even then, seeing as he's an epic illusionist and all. He'd probably be able to cook up something strong enough to beat Durkon's non-epic true seeing.


What I'm hoping for is to have Girard be alive but absolutely uncooperative, and possibly hidden for a while. After all, he knows about the last two gates blowing up and probably saw the OotS at Dorukon's gate. He probably doesn't know that V cast the familicide, but expect that to come out at the most inoppertune moment. He might recognize the son of the local shadow tyrant, though.



Overall, however, I think the most promising evidence that someone may still be alive is this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)

[Squirrel_Token]

Possibly dumb question: is there any particular reason to think that something as simple as Death Ward (or the epic equivalent of it) wouldn't protect Girard. Again, when you live in a world where you are rightly paranoid of everyone and everything, it really does just make sense that he would have SOMETHING up to protect himself from long-range insta-death.

[Chess Tyrant]

Possibly dumb question: is there any particular reason to think that something as simple as Death Ward (or the epic equivalent of it) wouldn't protect Girard. Again, when you live in a world where you are rightly paranoid of everyone and everything, it really does just make sense that he would have SOMETHING up to protect himself from long-range insta-death.

I don't think Death Ward could (though I'm not sure) but I've argued from the beginning that Girard probably had some sort of ward against assassination spells like this.

[Gift Jeraff]

Overall, however, I think the most promising evidence that someone may still be alive is this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)Yes, Zz'dtri is still alive. :smalltongue:

[Squirrel_Token]

I don't think Death Ward could (though I'm not sure) but I've argued from the beginning that Girard probably had some sort of ward against assassination spells like this.

Yeah, I didn't mean Death Ward itself, but surely an epic level caster would have an epic level equivalent. The more I think, the more I like this explanation more than the "he made his nebulous save" one.

[Sunken Valley]

V said it killed direct relatives and their direct relatives. How does that wipe out at least 3 generations of Draketeeth? Because non of them are black dragons.

[SaintRidley]

Look at the most recent comic. Now remember how family trees work.

[Knight13]

V said that Familicide kills any creature "that directly shares your bloodline", as well as any creatures directly related to any of those creatures. Any direct descendants, no matter how many generations down, qualify as blood relatives and were therefore killed by the spell.

[Sunken Valley]

Look at the most recent comic. Now remember how family trees work.

Elaborate. What I see is that unless ABD did stuff with humans, V would only have killed the half dragons before Draketooth. If she did, then Draketooth would have died. Not all these people.

[Friv]

It's a direct line bloodline. The dragon's children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and so on and so forth forever are all affected.

The spell also affects anyone who is directly related to them, and thus kills any parents and grandparents and so on and so forth of the original bloodline's members. It then stops, which is the only reason that V didn't accidentally eradicate every human in the world.

[SaintRidley]

Let's say, for example's sake, that ABD is the dragon on our wall here. Not saying she is, but let's treat it like so for now.

You're saying that ABD's half-dragon children, by virtue of being related to her, would be killed. But her grandchildren, including Girard, would not be killed because they are somehow not related to her?

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, because you're being really unclear.

[RMS Oceanic]

Elaborate. What I see is that unless ABD did stuff with humans, V would only have killed the half dragons before Draketooth. If she did, then Draketooth would have died. Not all these people.

The theory is that the dragon in the family tree in 842 shares the ABD bloodline. He may have been her brother, cousin, uncle, nephew or even her father. Once he was targeted, his entire family line was targeted as well, which includes the Draketooth clan.

[arcticintel]

I know V said that the spell wiped out anyone related to the dragon, and anyone directly related to them, but I don't think he was exactly describing the effects of the spell.

His intent was to prevent retribution for the killing of a family member, so it wouldn't make sense if the spell only killed 3 generations IMO.

For example, if you cast the spell on my great grandmother it would kill my grandmother and mother, but leave me alive to potentially seek revenge.

The spell most likely goes completely through the family tree. So no matter how far back you're related to an individual, it'll still get you.

[Coventry]

What I want to know is why Penelope died. She married into the family, so she (probably) was not a blood relative.

[Porthos]

V said it killed direct relatives and their direct relatives. How does that wipe out at least 3 generations of Draketeeth? Because non of them are black dragons.

Nowhere does it say it only goes to one generation. Why some people think that, is beyond me.

For instance, I share(d) a direct bloodline of my grandfather. I also share a direct bloodline with my great-great-great-great-grandfather.

If, presuming it could happen in the first place, someone cast Familicde on him, I'd be dead. The spell is designed to totally eradicate Family Trees. A Family Cide, if you will.

Now there are "circuit breakers" in the spell, obviously. Otherwise one casting would kill everyone on earth. But the family tree on the wall was fairly obvious, I thought. One of the direct bloodline members of the ABD family had a fling with a human female. Girard Draketooth is a direct member of said fling. Thus Girard Draketooth* and all who share his direct bloodline got zapped as well.

*Presuming, again, that Girard didn't find a way to survive, or wasn't already dead.

A nasty nasty spell. One might almost call it Epic. :smallwink: As well as Vile. of course...

What I want to know is why Penelope died. She married into the family, so she (probably) was not a blood relative.

She had a child with Orrin. Orrin was zapped by being in the bloodline. The daughter was zapped for being in the bloodline. Penelope was zapped for being directly related to someone in the bloodline.

[Math_Mage]

What I want to know is why Penelope died. She married into the family, so she (probably) was not a blood relative.

Clause 1: "Anyone who shares your bloodline is dead."
Clause 2: "Anyone who is directly related to someone who shares your bloodline is also dead."

Penelope's son was a Draketooth, hence someone who fit under Clause 1. As such, Penelope, being directly related to her son, fit under Clause 2. Any blood relatives of Penelope also died.

[SaintRidley]

What I want to know is why Penelope died. She married into the family, so she (probably) was not a blood relative.

She birthed a Draketooth. She falls under the second part, where the spell then goes and kills the ancestors of the first group of beings killed.

[Chiyoung]

You are going down the family tree. Try going sideways.

[SSGW Priest]

Without delving into the logistics of Black Dragon - Human mating :smalleek:, assuming no additional dragon blood past the first generation then:

1st gen: 50% Dragon - 50% Human
2nd gen: 25% Dragon - 75% Human
3rd gen: 12.5% Dragon - 87.5% Human
4th gen: 6.75% Dragon - 93.25% Human

You can continue to infinite generations and there will always be a trace of dragon blood. The subsequent generations may not look dragon, but the trace is still there.

[TheSummoner]

I know V said that the spell wiped out anyone related to the dragon, and anyone directly related to them, but I don't think he was exactly describing the effects of the spell.

His intent was to prevent retribution for the killing of a family member, so it wouldn't make sense if the spell only killed 3 generations IMO.

For example, if you cast the spell on my great grandmother it would kill my grandmother and mother, but leave me alive to potentially seek revenge.

The spell most likely goes completely through the family tree. So no matter how far back you're related to an individual, it'll still get you.

That was sort of my original theory, but yes, it seems that it goes up the family tree so long as there is someone alive for it to hit.

Now, the ABD only had one child, the YBD, so she's not Girard's ancestor (also, the dragon on the wall is male... Female human and basic biology with the assumption that there was no magic wackiness going on.)

So the ABD... Her father or grandfather or great grandfather or so on... One of them also had a child with a human woman. That human woman gave birth to three half dragons. One of the three half dragons was one of Girard's parents.

So the spell goes from the ABD upwards through her parents and their parents and so on as long as those dragons are still alive (it has to stop when it hits a dead one - atleast while going up - or else it hits their common ancestor and wipes out ALL of the black dragons instead of 25%). It also presumably would hit any of her children if she had any that hadn't already been killed. Then from THOSE targets it branches again, going upwards and downwards through direct family line in the same manner.


What I want to know is why Penelope died. She married into the family, so she (probably) was not a blood relative.

I also want to know that and I'm not convinced it's familicide related... Unless the Draketooths were into inbreeding anyways...

It starts with the ABD and it goes up through her ancestors. Then it branches from them before stopping... So from her it goes up and one of them affected is also Girard's grandfather. From Girard's grandfather it branches and kills all of the Draketooths and anyone else who would share the bloodline... But that should be it. The fact that Penelope gave birth to a Draketooth wouldn't mean it affects her because the spell only branches twice. To hit her, either it would have to branch three times or she would have to have a connection to the dragon/draketooth bloodline independant of her and Orrin's daughter..

[Knight13]

I also want to know that and I'm not convinced it's familicide related... Unless the Draketooths were into inbreeding anyways...
This was already explained. Penelope had a child with Orrin Draketooth, a child that was therefore part of the Draketooth bloodline. As the mother of that child, she falls under the second clause of Familicide and got pasted.

[SaintRidley]

Now, the ABD only had one child, the YBD, so she's not Girard's ancestor (also, the dragon on the wall is male... Female human and basic biology with the assumption that there was no magic wackiness going on.)

With dragons, your parenthetical is almost always too much to assume.



What are the odds Junior got hold of one of ABD's polymorph scrolls and went to have some fun among the humans while pretty young (say...15 years old, about 90 years ago)? Still immature as a fairly newly adult dragon by the time he died, doing the human thing back then and making some little ones that mama never got wind of.

Just a thought there.

[TheSummoner]

This was already explained. Penelope had a child with Orrin Draketooth, a child that was therefore part of the Draketooth bloodline. As the mother of that child, she falls under the second clause of Familicide and got pasted.

As I just said above, it doesn't explain it.

"Every living creature who directly shares your bloodline is dead." This hits several dragons including Girard's grandfather.

"Every living creature that is directly related to any of those creatures is also dead." This hits the Draketooths, including Girard (if not already dead of old age), Orrin, and Orrin and Penelope's daughter. It does not say it hits anyone related to them (a third branch-off), so from what V said, it wouldn't affect Penelope unless she has some other blood connection to the Draketooth family or one of the ABD's ancestors.

[Nightmarenny]

As I just said above, it doesn't explain it.

"Every living creature who directly shares your bloodline is dead." This hits several dragons including Girard's grandfather.

"Every living creature that is directly related to any of those creatures is also dead." This hits the Draketooths, including Girard (if not already dead of old age), Orrin, and Orrin and Penelope's daughter. It does not say it hits anyone related to them (a third branch-off), so from what V said, it wouldn't affect Penelope unless she has some other blood connection to the Draketooth family or one of the ABD's ancestors.

No that's not how it works. Everyone in the "Blackdragons family is dead" gets all the Draketooths. They all share her blood line. Then anybody who is related to a Draketooth is killed. Penelope is related to her child and is thus killed.

[Porthos]

As I just said above, it doesn't explain it.

"Every living creature who directly shares your bloodline is dead." This hits several dragons including Girard's grandfather.

"Every living creature that is directly related to any of those creatures is also dead." This hits the Draketooths, including Girard (if not already dead of old age), Orrin, and Orrin and Penelope's daughter. It does not say it hits anyone related to them (a third branch-off), so from what V said, it wouldn't affect Penelope unless she has some other blood connection to the Draketooth family or one of the ABD's ancestors.

No, you making two steps where only one is required:

Dragon ----> Girard's Father -----> Girard -----> Orrin -----> Penelope's daughter is all one direct bloodline.

Penelope's daughter -------> Penelope is the "jump" upwards.

[Draconian]

"Every living creature who directly shares your bloodline is dead." This hits several dragons including Girard's grandfather.


Assume, for simplicity's sake, that Girard's grandfather was ABD's father. That would make Girard's father a half-brother of the ABD (with different mothers.) By your logic, half-brothers and half-sisters do not share a bloodline.

[Nightmarenny]

Actually here's a really easy way to explain it. Note that I will be using "Related by Marriage" as a euphemism for had a child with for simplicity's sake.

The spell is two part. First it kills everybody related by blood. Second it kills anyone related by "marriage".

[siobharek]

We only have V's word for how the spell will work - or rather, how (s)he thought it would work. It was an Epic spell, created on the fly, and powered by three flavours of evil. I don't necessarily think that V knew everything when (s)he cast the spell...

[TheSummoner]

No that's not how it works. Everyone in the "Blackdragons family is dead" gets all the Draketooths. They all share her blood line. Then anybody who is related to a Draketooth is killed. Penelope is related to her child and is thus killed.

But not directly. There is a bloodline connection between the ABD and the Draketooths, but not a direct one.


No, you making two steps where only one is required:

Dragon ----> Girard's Father -----> Girard -----> Orrin -----> Penelope's daughter is all one direct bloodline.

Penelope's daughter -------> Penelope is the "jump" upwards.

Well, not adding extra steps as much as just specifically mentioning a few noteworthy ones. The steps are:

V targets the ABD. From the ABD it hits all of her living ancestors and decendants (One jump). Among her ancestors are Girard's grandfather.

From there it hits all of the ancestors and decendants of the the ones hit by the first jump (The second jump). From the Girard's grandfather, it kills the Draketooth clan. It kills Girard if he's still alive. It kills Orrin. It kills Orrin and Penelope's daughter. It kills everyone in that room.

But it does not jump after that. There is no third jump. It does not jump from Orrin and Penelope's daughter to that girl's ancestors. It wouldn't hit Penelope herself.

Edit:


Assume, for simplicity's sake, that Girard's grandfather was ABD's father. That would make Girard's father a half-brother of the ABD (with different mothers.) By your logic, half-brothers and half-sisters do not share a bloodline.

Again, the key word is "direct." They are related through their common parent, not through eachother.

[Nightmarenny]

But not directly. There is a bloodline connection between the ABD and the Draketooths, but not a direct one.



Well, not adding extra steps as much as just specifically mentioning a few noteworthy ones. The steps are:

V targets the ABD. From the ABD it hits all of her living ancestors and decendants (One jump). Among her ancestors are Girard's grandfather.

From there it hits all of the ancestors and decendants of the the ones hit by the first jump (The second jump). From the Girard's grandfather, it kills the Draketooth clan. It kills Girard if he's still alive. It kills Orrin. It kills Orrin and Penelope's daughter. It kills everyone in that room.

But it does not jump after that. There is no third jump. It does not jump from Orrin and Penelope's daughter to that girl's ancestors. It wouldn't hit Penelope herself.
But the first jump kills the whole Draketooth clan. They are his blood family so they die.

Why do you think it would stop with Girards grandfather?

[Porthos]

V targets the ABD. From the ABD it hits all of her living ancestors and decendants (One jump). Among her ancestors are Girard's grandfather.

From there it hits all of the ancestors and decendants of the the ones hit by the first jump (The second jump).

This is NOT a second jump. Girard Draketooth IS a "direct member of the ABD bloodline" and thus is targeted no matter how many people are dead between him and the ABD.

Here is the exact quote: "Every living creature that directly shares your bloodline is dead." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html)

Now does Girard Draketooth directly share a bloodline with the ABD? According to the familiy tree plastered on the wall, the answer is: Yes.

Thus he and all people directly descended from him are also targeted.

One step. No jumping. :smallsmile:

[Nightmarenny]

(still talking to Summorer)
You're misunderstanding the meaning of "directly share your bloodline".

When V says directly she means the Parent/child or sibling relationship. They are all directly related to each other. As are grandchildren or great grandchildren or so on. Then any living creature directly related to anyone hit by the first part of the speel(Penelope's child specifically) have all of their brothers/sisters/father/mother/grandwhatever affected(penelope).

Your way wouldn't even kill Girard I think.

[Knight13]

It was an Epic spell, created on the fly, and powered by three flavours of evil.
Familicide wasn't created on the fly, it was an epic spell that Haerta created and had prepared. I'm fairly certain that you can't just make up epic level spells on the spot, no matter how many caster levels you have.

[SoC175]

She birthed a Draketooth. She falls under the second part, where the spell then goes and kills the ancestors of the first group of beings killed.
Why not the most easy answer: Nale & Co killed her.

Really, it the spell now also kills wifes and husbands, then it would also need to kill parents- and siblings-in-law. And then it would need to also kill their children and their wifes and their in-laws ....

There would be no end to the spell. This also just proves that the premise of "killing anyone who could want vengeance due to the ones the spell killed" is complete nonsense, since for each and every kill the number of people that now need to kill to prevent revenge would grow exponentially


Now I just hope that Girad, as a mighty epic level spellcaster in his own right, survived and is now mad with grief and lashing out at any visitiors.

Not because I want to be mean to the OotS, but because it would finally show familicide to not be absolutely unstoppable. As of now the spell is too much of a silly deus-ex-machina with it's 100% success rate. The close the targets are to the caster in power, the higher the chance should be that some just took the spell and remained standing.

[Nightmarenny]

Why not the most easy answer: Nale & Co killed her.

Really, it the spell now also kills wifes and husbands, then it would also need to kill parents- and siblings-in-law. And then it would need to also kill their children and their wifes and their in-laws ....

There would be no end to the spell. This also just proves that the premise of "killing anyone who could want vengeance due to the ones the spell killed" is complete nonsense, since for each and every kill the number of people that now need to kill to prevent revenge would grow exponentially

Your first problem is why it only makes one jump.

The second I think is intentional and meant to be a flaw in the plan. Theoretically V just mad an enemy of every man/women and Draketooth has screw and then left.

And we already know for (mostly) certain that Nale didn't kill her.

[Draconi Redfir]

...Maybe Penelope WASN'T killed by the famillicide?:smallconfused:

[arcticintel]

I think its safe to assume that, despite V's hasty description of the spell that it does kill more than 2-3 generations of relatives. The draketooths all being dead from the spell is in line with their recruiting methods.

I'm not convinced the spell would necassarily kill penelope, although it is "magic" so its possible it can jump like that. That raises an issue of where exactly the spell would stop though. If it killed a persons bloodline, everyone married into a bloodline, everyone in THEIR bloodlines so on and so forth a spell like that could cause a mass extinction event.

Of course, there is no real evidence that penelope died from the spell. I honestly had the opinion that Tarquin had killed her based off his attitude towards it, but thats a whole other thread.

[suzaliscious]

Why not the most easy answer: Nale & Co killed her.

Really, it the spell now also kills wifes and husbands, then it would also need to kill parents- and siblings-in-law. And then it would need to also kill their children and their wifes and their in-laws ....

There would be no end to the spell. This also just proves that the premise of "killing anyone who could want vengeance due to the ones the spell killed" is complete nonsense, since for each and every kill the number of people that now need to kill to prevent revenge would grow exponentially


Now I just hope that Girad, as a mighty epic level spellcaster in his own right, survived and is now mad with grief and lashing out at any visitiors.

Not because I want to be mean to the OotS, but because it would finally show familicide to not be absolutely unstoppable. As of now the spell is too much of a silly deus-ex-machina with it's 100% success rate. The close the targets are to the caster in power, the higher the chance should be that some just took the spell and remained standing.

You're assuming anthropology in OotS and the real world are similar. In the real world, all humans are descended from a common ancestor. This need not be the case in OotS. Consider the many different species - Goblins, Kobolds, Orcs, Dragons, Humans, Elves etc. all created by Gods. Every human bloodline need not be related. Imaging the Gods creating enough humans to populate a country or much of the world, all at once. Many different bloodlines.

[Xiander]

Assuming that V's description of the spells effect is sorrect and complete, this is really a discussion of what "related by blood" means.

The Penelope-shouldn't-be-dead camp holds that it means Your anscestors and your children, their children and so on.

The other camp holds that it means Your anscestors and their children and so on, plus your own children and their children and so on.



To the summoner: I believe you may be imposing a rule which does not exist. By saying that the effect only jumps twice, and calling the jump from an anscestor to a child of an anscestor a jump, you claim that in order to kill any siblings of the ABD, the spell would have to jump twice.
I am simply not convinced that this way of thinking is what the order had in mind. I believe the first jump takes all anscestor and decendants plus anyone related to them by blood. That is, not only your grandfather but all his children, and their children and so on are under the purview of related by blood to you. The second jump the takes anyone related by blood to the targets of the first jump, but not related by blood to you (this is where penelope comes into the picture).


This argument really needs a picture of a family three to help peole visualize it...

[Nightmarenny]

...Maybe Penelope WASN'T killed by the famillicide?:smallconfused:

The rules of the spell clearly dictate she should die, unless the concensus's interpretation is incorrect but I don't think that's the case, and every other possible cause of death that we know of has been ruled out.

It's a pretty good case.

[Draconi Redfir]

The rules of the spell clearly dictate she should die, unless the concensus's interpretation is incorrect but I don't think that's the case, and every other possible cause of death that we know of has been ruled out.

It's a pretty good case.

Theres more then one way for someone to mysteryously die. Always possible the two are unrelated.

[Nightmarenny]

Theres more then one way for someone to mysteryously die. Always possible the two are unrelated.

Which is why I said it was a pretty good case. That doesn't imply it's for sure.

Also as this is a narrative the possibility of them being unrelated.

And again, whether it did or not if Penelope were alive for the Familicide spell it would have killed her. She met the criteria.

[Draconi Redfir]

Heck we haven't even seen her body, it's possible she simply disappeared and was proclaimed legally dead.

[Nightmarenny]

Heck we haven't even seen her body, it's possible she simply disappeared and was proclaimed legally dead.

But if she only disappeared she is still dead because the Familicide effects her. Do I have to make a chart?

[mroozee]

Yeah, I didn't mean Death Ward itself, but surely an epic level caster would have an epic level equivalent. The more I think, the more I like this explanation more than the "he made his nebulous save" one.

I think Death Ward could be enough by itself. The problem is that it only lasts for 1 minute per level - though a scarab of protection would give the same effect without the problem that comes with a limited time duration.

[Porthos]

Here's the thing. Counting the eggs, there are at least 62 beings killed in Comic #639 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html), with the implication from that page alone that a lot more were going to be targeted.

Now think about this for a second. Sixty. Two. Creatures. Ain't no way that is only one or two generations in either direction. Especially given the later comment about "how slowly [they] breed". The only way it could possibly target that many creatures, again with the implication of a lot more, is if it in fact went to every "living direct bloodline" member plus "every person directly related to them" and not just one or two generations.

No other way to explain that many deaths. Indeed the real problem is figuring out just how it stopped. Which, to be fair, has been discussed a bit. :smallwink:

[Hushdawg]

But if she only disappeared she is still dead because the Familicide effects her. Do I have to make a chart?

There's a chart in the comic if that helps. :smallwink:

I agree with you because the Familicide spell is specifically designed to kill anyone who is related in such a way that could cause them to seek vengeance upon the one casting the spell.

Would Penelope seek vengeance on V for killing that particular black dragon? no, definitely not. Would she seek vengeance on V for casting a spell which killed her husband and child? Absolutely.

We have to remember that Familicide is not V's spell, it is the spell of a very cruel and malicious necromancer so if you're thinking like an evil character then you'd craft a spell that erases the entire family tree from existence, no matter how slight the connection.

[Templarkommando]

What about an adoption? If there are any adopted children in the clan I wonder if they would still be living. Another possibility is people who married into the family, but never produced children.

[Nightmarenny]

What about an adoption? If there are any adopted children in the clan I wonder if they would still be living. Another possibility is people who married into the family, but never produced children.

Well, if the way Penelope's child was conceived is their typical way of recruiting new family members I don't think there will be any husbands and wives in the compound and if adoption were deemed an acceptable way of recruiting I doubt Girard would bother with the whole deception to get Genetic children in the first place. No, I think from what we know its very unlikely anyone was left alive in there save maybe Girard.

[Porthos]

What about an adoption? If there are any adopted children in the clan I wonder if they would still be living. Another possibility is people who married into the family, but never produced children.

And that is the Fatal Flaw of Familicide. Well that and the whole "friends trying to find out what killed said friends and possibly avenge them" idea.

Really, The Big F is a poorly thought out spell when it comes to "making sure no one can ever avenge someone" angle. Which was, if one recalls, V's stated reasoning.

Of course, I tend to believe that V's stated reasoning was a bunch of hooey. But that's another thread. :smallwink:

[Nightmarenny]

What about an adoption? If there are any adopted children in the clan I wonder if they would still be living. Another possibility is people who married into the family, but never produced children.

Well, if the way Penelope's child was conceived is their typical way of recruiting new family members I don't think there will be any husbands and wives in the compound and if adoption were deemed an acceptable way of recruiting I doubt Girard would bother with the whole deception to get Genetic children in the first place. No, I think from what we know its very unlikely anyone was left alive in there save maybe Girard.

[Nightmarenny]

We know almost nothing about the spell so who knows. But I will say that an Epic-Level character like Girard laughs at the saves of a Black Dragon of that level.

It could have a HD limit for all we know. A had max level that it can effect.

[Drolyt]

I haven't read the whole thread and don't plan to, but I'm going to go ahead and explain how I think it works. V said "every living creature that directly shares your bloodline is dead" and "every living creature that is directly related to any of those creatures is also dead". The first part means all direct descendants, direct ancestors, and siblings. The second means all brothers/sisters (although they should already be covered)/mothers/fathers/possibly others (I'm not positive what The Giant intends by "directly related") of those in the first group. Given that family tree Girard has to be a direct descendant of the Ancient Black Dragon if my understanding is correct. Also given my understanding it would have affected Penelope, which explains why Tarquin and Nale each think the other killed her.

[Hushdawg]

And that is the Fatal Flaw of Familicide.
Of course, I tend to believe that V's stated reasoning was a bunch of hooey. But that's another thread. :smallwink:

What's that you say? V spouted less than absolute logical perfection!

Clutch my pearls!

[Quild]

Overall, however, I think the most promising evidence that someone may still be alive is this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)

You're kidding right? That scrying eye definitely belongs to Z.

[martianmister]

How do you figure? Bloodlines don't transition to mates.

Orrin's daughter is related to Penelope by bloodline,
Penelope's would-be-child would be related to her by bloodline,
Penelope's would-be-child would be related to Tarquin by bloodline,
Elan and Nale is related to Tarquin by bloodline...

[Alge'n]

Do you think eliminating the only guardians of one of the gates, guardians that could have been a nuisance for whatever they have in mind, was part of their plan all along? It's no coincidence that they handed V a soul that had the unique spell Familicide just in a situation where it had a reason to be used. V may have been even more thoroughly manipulated than we thought.

[Alcatur]

There is one potential proof that Girard, or someone from family, may have survived:the scrying spell cast back in strip 698. Someone has cast it and since it was just after triggering the trap at false gate location, this person propably knew about the gate.

[Nightmarenny]

Orrin's daughter is related to Penelope by bloodline,
Penelope's would-be-child would be related to her by bloodline,
Penelope's would-be-child would be related to Tarquin by bloodline,
Elan and Nale is related to Tarquin by bloodline...

Good thing it only goes one step. And no Penelopes child wasn't related to Tarquin. Or did you mean a possible child between the two? Still doesn't matter. Everyone in her bloodline dies but does not move on. If she had a child with Tarquin it would kill the child but not tarquin or his other child. Which goes to show how flawed the spell.

[Castamir]

There's another possibility:

What if Draketooth (the original) has transcended his mortality and become a demilich? That'd explain why he didn't know about his entire family dying, and how he could have survived (undead being immune to most death effects).
The spell specifically targets living relatives only. So you don't even need any of undead resistances. I really, really doubt Draketooth would go for lichdom, though -- if you follow any D&D fluff, lichdom is reserved for most evil characters only, and Rich follows such rules.

[Studoku]

I think you're thinking of Genghis Khan.
We're going off topic a little, but the typically European example is Charlemagne.

[Blacky the Blackball]

Tiamat probably created many different dragons, so they are not related to each other by bloodline.

Unless, of course, dragons have a Mitochondrial Eve - in which case even if Tiamat created many dragons all of the currently living ones are descended from one of them and therefore part of the same "bloodline".

But of course that would assume that "bloodline" follows the scientific rules of genetics rather than the narrative rules of magic. It almost certainly follows the latter.

[Emperor Flumph]

It seems a longshot that V would use it, unless the IFCC had studied her thoroughly enough to predict every action. Expecting her to attack Xykon, her biggest adversary is one thing (and they were only 84% sure of that) but knowing the specific spell she was going to use on the ABD? It seems a little far-fetched.
I suppose it's possible Nero unstructed Haerta to suggest the spell to V, which she did off-panel. I'd buy that.

[Heksefatter]

Yes, I think that it was a coincidence. At least their plans can't possibly have hinged on that - there are simply too many "ifs." Would V have held on to the right soul long enough? Would V have used that exact spell?

Furthermore, from the strip, it is clear that the IFCC-members were taken aback by the use of Familicide. So they clearly didn't expect it.

[faustin]

They are archfiends. Couldn´t they use epic divinations or something like that to predict (or guess with enough accurate) V´s actions under the soul splice?

[JX_Blue]

As I just said above, it doesn't explain it.

"Every living creature who directly shares your bloodline is dead." This hits several dragons including Girard's grandfather.

"Every living creature that is directly related to any of those creatures is also dead." This hits the Draketooths, including Girard (if not already dead of old age), Orrin, and Orrin and Penelope's daughter. It does not say it hits anyone related to them (a third branch-off), so from what V said, it wouldn't affect Penelope unless she has some other blood connection to the Draketooth family or one of the ABD's ancestors.

I think you misunderstand what the spell means. The spell hits wives/husbands who marry into the family as well. If that weren't true, then Girard's wife and his mother would still be alive, because technically they married into the family.

[Tarl]

Sorry but the 482 thread is way to much for me too keep up with. Like 400 replies in less then 12 hours? Yikes! I know someone probably brought this up already but I would like to talk about it somewhere else.

So anyway, my question is if the whole clan was wiped out, who was high enough level to scry on the order after they set off the trap ment for Soon here... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html

Truly epic illusions, I mean like the very best illusions, would have to be personalized to screw with your brain I imagine. They'd be more then just a maze of mirrors, right? So maybe they (the Draketooth Clan) magically looked into each party member's past and chose to exploit V's recent difficulties.

So maybe those corpses aren't corpes at all.

Just my thinking.

[Ellye]

Sorry but the 482 thread is way to much for me too keep up with. Like 400 replies in less then 12 hours? Yikes! I know someone probably brought this up already but I would like to talk about it somewhere else.

So anyway, my question is if the whole clan was wiped out, who was high enough level to scry on the order after they set off the trap ment for Soon here... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.htmlIt was Z, the dark elf from the Linear Guild, I believe.

[Sunken Valley]

"When I married my Husband, I inherited everything, including his DNA" Marge Simpson.

Sorry, this is what this conversation reminds me of.

I would like to say that V only killed 25% of the BD population. Making the deaths his fault highly implausible. Unless you count the horrified expression at the end of the panel (for drama), title (refers to family), Day of Death and M.O. Still, could be a red herring.

And whoever said a while back that Penelope was a half dragon (Gift Jerraf) was not far off. Although, this does prove once and for all that Haley, Ian, Geoff and maybe Ivy (although we haven't seen her in contact with her husband and brother in law) are not Draketeeth.

[Sunken Valley]

Sorry but the 482 thread is way to much for me too keep up with. Like 400 replies in less then 12 hours? Yikes! I know someone probably brought this up already but I would like to talk about it somewhere else.

So anyway, my question is if the whole clan was wiped out, who was high enough level to scry on the order after they set off the trap ment for Soon here... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html

Truly epic illusions, I mean like the very best illusions, would have to be personalized to screw with your brain I imagine. They'd be more then just a maze of mirrors, right? So maybe they (the Draketooth Clan) magically looked into each party member's past and chose to exploit V's recent difficulties.

So maybe those corpses aren't corpes at all.

Just my thinking.

Good idea, although that specific eye is Z.

Doesn't rule out other scryers.

[Slayn82]

Actually, yes, they could. But future is never really defined until it becomes present, so the probability response is actually a clever implementation of seeing the future.

And considering that V's enemy was directly related to Draketooth, yes, the IFCC probably intended this happening from the begining, as a high probable scenario - an immediate secondary goal from granting V's soul.

[Sunken Valley]

So Sabine telling Roy to get the sword was a fridge logic ret-con dating back 700 strips? Awesome.

Plus not to mention that the only reason the party split was because Roy jumped. Which he would not have done had he not had a super magic sword.

[Kish]

Girard's paternal grandfather was a black dragon who was related to the ancient black dragon we met.

Therefore Girard was related to her (how related to her, we don't know without knowing how she was related to that dragon; her grand-nephew? Her third cousin? Because she was Ancient and humans don't live all that long, Girard's grandfather is unlikely to have been significantly older than her, not that that would make the slightest difference to the Familicide's effects). And his children and children's children and so on into infinity were related to her. I'm not even clear on what this thread considers to be the barrier to that being the case (is this another "I make up arbitrary restriction and declare that it shouldn't have hit anyone more than two generations away" thread?). "None of them are black dragons"--so? That's about as relevant as, "All those people have brown hair, what do you mean they're related to Leonardo di Caprio, he has blond hair!"

[Slayn82]

Anyway, Girard and any simulacra he created of him will be alerted by the illusion in the desert.

My guess is that he turned himself to stone, and ordered some simulacra of him to turn him back if that spell went off, or if someone attacked the clan.

[Murray]

I agree with you because the Familicide spell is specifically designed to kill anyone who is related in such a way that could cause them to seek vengeance upon the one casting the spell.


Do we know this for certain? Because this was the reason Vaarsuvius cast the spell, it doesn't mean that it's the intended usage for the spell. If Haerta designed the spell for a different task, such as vengeance or spitefulness, then the workings may have a different focus. From a practical view, Familicide is an excellent tool for obliterating a royal family you have a grudge against, but without exposition from Haerta, we will probably never know exactly what the spell was created for. But it appeared to be useful to Vaarsuvius, at the time.

I have a hard time believing that Familicide was created to act as a 'defensive' spell.

[Tarl]

Actually I did wonder "what if Draketooth turned himself into a lich too" but I find the stone idea much more reasonable.

So anyway how do we know it was Z scrying? I am looking through the archive and not seeing anything.

[psijac]

Sabine gave Roy the starmetal sidequest because Nale told her too. He was hoping Order of The Stick would die on the way. IFCC had nothing to do with starmetal or young black dragn

[Once&FutureKing]

I'll be disappointed if Girard is alive. It'll be an ass pull, as well as illogical. If he's alive, he should be doing stuff right now (or have done stuff). Status/suspended animation is one thing, but most explanations would be disappointing.

In addition, it'll come off as an ass pull for Girard to survive Familicide, when so many ancient dragons didn't. I don't care if he's Epic, he has no business surviving based on what we've seen of Haerta. Epic enemies are the ones Haerta most needs to worry about killing.

[Quild]

The stone statue seems quite big to me. Not sure it's human sized.

[Tarl]

but they are always watching and could have manipulated things to their advantage.

Also, nothing in the contract sated exactly WHEN the feinds would come for V's soul. Maybe that was the subject of debate before but I haven't been active on the forum for literally years.

[Murray]

If Girard lives because he ordered himself to be turned to stone until his family's darkest hour (going all King Arthur would probably suit his ego), then I don't think that particular method of surviving would be an ass-pull. Quite the opposite, I think it shows the forethought of the storyteller in trying to find an edge case that would permit a potential target to survive. Girard being some form of greater undead might seem a little out of character, though.

And as for the age thing, someone pointed out in some thread, somewhere, that they make a Feat for that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#extendedLifeSpan).

[Alge'n]

Yes, I think that it was a coincidence. At least their plans can't possibly have hinged on that - there are simply too many "ifs." Would V have held on to the right soul long enough? Would V have used that exact spell?

It very probably wasn't their main plan, but it was a likely event that was beneficial to them, just as V going for Xykon. Not certain, but probable. I'm not saying the whole point of their offer to V was to get rid of the Draketooth clan, but I doubt the choice of Haerta and her Familicide spell in a very family-related feud was totally innocent.

[dehro]

I really don't see what is so difficult here
the spell kills anyone who has DNA ties to that dragon..why, pray, can't Girard's grandpa not be that dragon's brother and has it to be a third cousin, which would still count?
the "other parent" of whoever shares the dna of a black dragon is directly linked to that individual, so dies... the other relatives of said other parent don't die because they are not directly related to a dragon (unless they are by other family ties)..but only to the parent in question..who dies under the first clause but breaks the chain in regards to the second clause, thereby leaving the rest of humanity and dragondom alone.

it's fairly simple really..why the 3-4 pages of debate on something rather straightforward and kinda hard to interpret any other way unless you start twisting purposedly?

[Eigenclass]

Here's the premise:

Girard's gate is protected not only by illusions, but the paranoid lies of a guy couldn't even trust a Paladin to stick to his word. Also, we see illusion spells warding the canyon, but no mention is made of a gate. There's no reason to believe Girard's Gate is even located in Windy Canyon - if the Draketoothlings can leave the Canyon to get supplies, surely they can "commute" to the real location of the gate, were it located elsewhere.

If Girard lied to Soon, he might have lied to Serini. Or maybe Serini's journal was ambiguous on details, like what form the gate takes, or how to get past whatever puzzles and illusions are protecting it.

The only "fast" way to decipher the true location might have been to torture it out of someone who already knows - something at which RC is very practiced.

Maybe rather than Resurrection, the spell they should be thinking about is Disintegrate, or something else that'd get rid of the evidence, and then watch comedic hijinks ensue as Team Evil pits their mediocre Int scores against a problem that they can't just brute-force their way through.

[Xiander]

"When I married my Husband, I inherited everything, including his DNA" Marge Simpson.

Sorry, this is what this conversation reminds me of.


But no one in this thread is claiming anything like that.

[Tarl]

Well to me it looked like a life sized tombstone, so if it is really him I wonder what is in the casket below?


Probably a lot of extra nasty traps....

[Omergideon]

I reckon Girard is dead. If a spell will kill such a massive proportion of Black Dragons, including Ancient ones with saving throws up the wazoo, I think a human is probably dead. At best he would be severly weakened by the spell.

Now a flesh to stone sort of transformation would be the only way I could see him surviving without having guarded specifically against the spell.

But I personally think Girard died of old age. Considering the age of Shinjo, and the fact Girard was older than Dorukan at the time, he would be in his 80s at youngest, probably older. He could have extended his life span, but I don't think he did.

[Ellye]

I... I don't get what's being so hard to understand, here.

Familicide:
Step One: Kills everyone in the same bloodline of the target.
Step Two: Kills everyone directly related to anyone affected by the previous step.

Assuming that the dragon in that family tree is in the same bloodline of the ABD, then:

Everyone in the family tree is in the same bloodline of the ABD. Everyone in the family tree is affected by the first step of Familicide. Penelope's child belongs on that family tree, and was also affected by the first step of Familicide. Penelope is directly related to her child, and therefore is affected by the second step of Familicide.

[Mutant Sheep]

Well,the nice illusion man said he gave Serini the true coordinates, so unless he was specifically trying to cause more strife in his old party...:smalleek:

[Slayn82]

So anyway how do we know it was Z scrying? I am looking through the archive and not seeing anything.

Each caster has his own magic color. Z spells are green.

[Tarl]

Seriously?

(Edit)Let me rephrase that... my idea is being shot down because Z and only Z could possibly cast green spells? That is kinda a weak argument to be honest, at least to me. And it was pure coincidence she scryed the same day the trap was set off?

(double edit because I was rude)

[Emperor Flumph]

There's also the question of why the IFCC would want the Draketooth clan dead. Their stated goal is to create pointless conflict so no one can win. Removing an entire side from the upcoming battle and making the job easier for everyone who wants the gate doesn't seem to fit with that.

[Quild]

Well, if Girard of one of his kin had a way to know this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html) was triggered, which is highly probable because you do want to know it has been triggered and by whom, they would have seen this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0696.html).

Thus, someone would have come (at least a grammar nazi), the Order would have find the gate without Tarquin's arch, and everyone would be prepared to fight team evil and only team evil.

[KillianHawkeye]

So anyway how do we know it was Z scrying? I am looking through the archive and not seeing anything.

When Elan and Nale are fighting, Nale mentions that the OOTS were out in the middle of the desert and then suddenly came to the city. Elan asks how he knew where they were, but gets interrupted.

That and the magic color thing pretty heavily imply that the scrying was done by the drow, but we really don't know 100% for sure.

[Tarl]

Now that argument makes sense! Thanks!

(this time I am not being sarcastic) :smallsmile:

[cloudland]

I don't understand why people think Girard is paranoid against everyone. It seems like in all appearance the only person Girard is paranoid against is Soon. Think about this. If Girard have been an epic illusionist, his whole life he have been taught not to trust things from the outside. Obviously, if a guy come to him who have nothing substantial to back up his claim but saying "you have my word" Girard obviously would be extra careful against him. That's why Girard only mentioned his paranoia against authority figure, not everyone.
Serini seems to have good relationship with Girard. Her dairy show she like him, and on the other hand, Girard still need to deal with situation when his gate blow up (as per prior agreement, they all need to set up divination to detect what happened to their gate), and who is better that Serini to trust.
Not just that Serini planned to become a paladin too, so it's not like Girard have problem with paladin. It's more of the case Girard have problem with paladin who rely solely on honor and word-keeping rather than substantial evidence.
Girard also never seen to be arguing with Dorukan, but instead they reinforce each other during their final tiff with Soon.

[Wrecan]

Unless, of course, dragons have a Mitochondrial Eve - in which case even if Tiamat created many dragons all of the currently living ones are descended from one of them and therefore part of the same "bloodline".
Why would Tiamat create many dragons from a single mitochondrial Eve? If Tiamat created many dragons, she'd just create many dragons.

[Shivore]

I agree, not sure what's so complicated here.

For those saying the hard part is where it stops... that's actually easy.

As said before, Penelope's child is part of clause 1, Penelope is covered by clause 2... it stops right there. Penelope's father, mother, brother, sister whatever is not covered by any clause and so survives. (And could seek out vengeance for what killed Penelope I suppose).

I think the spell worked quite well for V's purposes though. Yes there are those who could seek vengeance... but it's through so many connections how could it possibly trace back to V? Besides... the idea that no one is left to mourn the ABD is true with this (at least most likely, not counting friends and adoptees).

[Coventry]

Of course, Penelope might not be dead. "Killed off screen" allows for all sorts of story games.

I believe that Girard, himself, is still alive, simply because of the scrying eyeball in the desert at the fake location. If not Girard, then whom?

[RMS Oceanic]

Of course, Penelope might not be dead. "Killed off screen" allows for all sorts of story games.

I believe that Girard, himself, is still alive, simply because of the scrying eyeball in the desert at the fake location. If not Girard, then whom?

Zz'drit. The scrying shares his magical aura, and how else could Nale know the Order was there?

[KillianHawkeye]

Maybe not in that way, but I think Penelope's death may have stalled Nale long enough for the OOTS to arrive in the western continent and catch up with him. Otherwise, if Penelope hadn't died, the LG would have narrowed down the exact location of the Draketooth clan even further and may have been able to leave the city sooner to find them. That would mean that Nale and company would arrive there first instead of the OOTS, and they may have been able to poison the Draketooths against the OOTS just like Elan supposed.

Now, thanks to V's Familicide, they don't get that chance.

[KillianHawkeye]

Okay, we all know that Xykon has nothing to do with this. BUT, does anybody else besides me think that V isn't going to come right out and take the credit for this? He/she may not lie exactly, but I doubt there's going to be a lot of debunking of other people's assumptions.

I'm envisioning a scene similar to this:

:vaarsuvius: Well, it seems that everyone in this family was killed by a powerful necromancy spell.
:haley: Wait, wouldn't a spell that powerful have to be cast by an epic level necromancer?
:durkon: Aye, not even 9th-level spells are that powerful.
:haley: Wait a minute. Epic level? Necromancy? It's XYKON!
:vaarsuvius: Actually, I-
:belkar: Are you telling me that jerkass Xykon can kill everybody without even being here?
:roy: It makes sense. If Xykon found out how Girard's gate was guarded, he could have researched an epic spell to kill the entire Draketooth clan all at once. He's not taking any chances this time. We'll have to be careful from here on in.
:vaarsuvius: Um...
:belkar: I wonder if it's not too late for that switching sides deal?
:vaarsuvius: :smallsigh:

Should give V some more time to wallow, and there's potential for hilarious mixups when the Order finally meets back up with Xykon.

[Blacky the Blackball]

Why would Tiamat create many dragons from a single mitochondrial Eve? If Tiamat created many dragons, she'd just create many dragons.

Erm... that's not how the Mitochondrial Eve concept works.

It's not that all the dragons would be created "from" a single Mitochondrial Eve. In fact the Mitochondrial Eve - if there is one - might not actually have been one of the originally created dragons. It might have been from a later generation.

The way a Mitochondrial Eve works is as follows:

1) Although most DNA that you have is a mix of the chromosomes of both your parents, some of it - your Mitochondrial DNA - only comes from your mother (similarly if you're male - and mammalian, most non-mammals don't do gender by the XY chromosome system - then the DNA in your Y chromosome comes only from your father, hence there is also a Y-Chromosome Adam).

2) Because of this, Mitochondrial DNA passes exclusively down the female line. You and all your siblings (male and female) inherit it from your mother. Your mother (and all your uncles and aunts) inherit it from your grandmother, and so forth.

3) This means that no male will ever pass down his Mitochondrial DNA to the next generation.

4) It also means that a female will always pass down her Mitochondrial DNA to the next generation if she has children, but will only pass it further than that if she has daughters (and they have daughters, and so forth).

5) In humans, we can - using genetic studies - pin down that all the Mitochondrial DNA possessed by any human comes from a common source: a single female that lived around 200,000 years ago. This female is known as "Mitochondrial Eve" and everyone alive is descended from her.

6) This does not mean that she was the "first woman" or the only woman alive. It's just that she's the youngest person we know whom everyone is related to - in the same way that you and all your cousins from one side of your family (if you have any) are all descended from your grandmother even though your grandmother wasn't the only woman in her generation and you and your cousins also have different relations that you don't share in common. In the same way, Mitochondrial Eve is the common grandmother of everyone who is alive, even though she wasn't the only woman in her generation and we all also have lots of different relations from her time that we don't share in common.

What this means is that in terms of "Bloodline", although not all humans that have ever lived share the same one, all humans that are currently alive share one. We are all the descendents of Mitochondrial Eve. Of course, most of us are also the descendents of all the other people who were alive at the same time as Mitochondrial Eve too; the number of people you are descended from increases each generation since each of your ancestors has two parents. But she - by definition - is the only one whom every living person is descended from. Each of the others in her generation may have some living descendents through the male line, but none of them have all of us as descendents.

So in the real world, a "Familicide" spell would wipe out the entire human race since we're all from Mitochondrial Eve's bloodline.

Of course, with humans we're talking about having to go back 200,000 years to find that common ancestor.

What I was saying was that if black dragons also had the equivalent then they'd all be wiped out despite Tiamat having created more than one.

Assuming, of course, that the spell follows genetics rather than narrative - and as I said, I'm fairly sure it follows the latter.

[faustin]

Then again, since they are archfiends (supposed top-of-the-game masterminds and puppetters), they are in a good position to pull a Xanatos Gambit with very real chances of success.

[Xapi]

So, I think the most literal interpretation of the spell description by V is:

Step 1, every living direct ancestor (Father, mother, grandparent) or descendant (children, grandchildren, etc) of the subject of the spell dies.

Step 2, every living direct ancestor (Father, mother, grandparent) or descendant (children, grandchildren, etc) of anyone affected by Step 1 dies.

And that is it.

So, we are left with three explanations for what happened to Penelope:

1 - The BD in the Draketooth family tree is either THE ABD, or the YBD. That would mean Girard, Orrin and Penelope's daughter are all direct descendants of the ABD, and therefore Step 1. Penelope, clearly, becomes step 2 and dies.

2 - The spell doesn't work exactly as advertised, either because V didn't know better or the phrasing was off. It actually goes beyond the 2 steps, or each step has a looser definition of "direct bloodline". So, Penelope is Step 2, because Step 1 includes her daughter even though she's not a direct descendant of the ABD, or Penelope is some sort of "Step 3" that was not in the explanation but is still affected.

3 - Penelope just happened to die of something else.

[M.A.D]

Now, thanks to V's Familicide, they don't get that chance.

Yes! Brilliant! Instead of risking having Nale kill them we can just kill them all ourselves!!! That way he CAN'T kill them any more, because they're already dead!! It's genius!!

If you haven't noticed, that was sarcasm.

V had killed an entire clan of people who dedicated not only their lives but als their children's and their children's children to protecting that gate. No amount of ragtag quasi-professional band of heroes could replace that. What you're trying to do is creating an excuse for V's inexcusable action.

[TheSummoner]

There's also the question of why the IFCC would want the Draketooth clan dead. Their stated goal is to create pointless conflict so no one can win. Removing an entire side from the upcoming battle and making the job easier for everyone who wants the gate doesn't seem to fit with that.

Perhaps they considered having the Draketooths around would give the defenders too great an advantage. Remember, the last thing they want is for one side to win. If removing an entire side makes the clonflict more even, then it's in their best interests to do it.

[Wrecan]

What I was saying was that if black dragons also had the equivalent then they'd all be wiped out despite Tiamat having created more than one.
And my response was that, given that Tiamat (and/or possibly Dragon from the Southern Pantheon) magically (or miraculously) created the dragons, for the black dragons to have a single mitochondrial Eve, Tiamat (and/or Dragon) would have had to have created one as well. And I see no reason for Tiamat (and/or Dragon) to do such a thing.

And given that only one-quarter of the black dragons were wiped out by the familicide spell, it does not appear that the black dragons have a mitochondrial Eve. Also, since the Draketooth progenitor was a male black dragon, as shown in the genealogical chart, it's pretty clear the spell can track your black dragon ancestry through either gender.

[Roland Itiative]

Weren't the fiends actually surprised V used such an evil spell as Familicide? I don't think their plan hinged on V's actions during the Splice at all, but only on the "soul jacking" that's certain to happen in the future.

[TheSummoner]

1 - The BD in the Draketooth family tree is either THE ABD, or the YBD. That would mean Girard, Orrin and Penelope's daughter are all direct descendants of the ABD, and therefore Step 1. Penelope, clearly, becomes step 2 and dies.

It is not the ABD for two reasons. 1) The dragon in the Draketooth family tree is male (the human next to it is female). 2) The ABD stated that she only had one child, the YBD. While the YBD being that dragon is possible, it just doesn't seem to fit (I dunno, I could be wrong with how it works with dragons, but to me a good metric to measure the difference between "young" and "adult" would be sexual maturity). Another possibility is that Penelope has some connection to the bloodline other than having had a child with Orrin, but that does seem like a longshot. Aside from those few notes, I agree with what you said.

To the people claiming that the Draketooths are a part of the ABD's family tree - They are not. The Draketooths are a part of one of the ABD's ancestor's family trees, but not of the ABD herself. There is no direct connection between her and the Draketooth clan, the connection goes through their common ancestor, making them two steps away. Penelope would be three.

[sockmonkey]

I'm with those that think it's limited to a certain number of steps. Consider that even with a number of unrelated dragons being created at the beginning, many of those dragons would have mated with each other and thus be linked to each other's bloodline through their children.
One important thing to note: When it said 1/4 of the black dragon population was wiped out, that number was for full dragons. When you include all the 1/2, 1/4, and 1/8th crossbreeds that were killed that number is probably greater by at least a factor of 10 since the crossbreeeds would reproduce much faster.

[Silfir]

Girards grandmom is a dragon. That could mean all sorts of things for his lifespan.

[Michaeler]

Just to throw even more uncertainty into the mix, who here knows the etymology of "Cousin"?

[dehro]

There is no direct connection between her and the Draketooth clan, the connection goes through their common ancestor, making them two steps away. Penelope would be three.

again..where does it say that the ADB doesn't have a brother?

[abcd]

I think there could be a bigger player involved... Someone bigger than the arch fiends....

[Omergideon]

One final part of the V quote to consider.

"Anyone who could possibly make a claim to be part of your family is gone now". If we give this the same weight as the previous ones then I would include penelope as well. Possibly.

Though in truth I do not care too much. But I think the spell was crazily expansive and so on.

[ellindsey]

again..where does it say that the ADB doesn't have a brother?

In fact, in strip 628, the ABD says she was going to visit her son's uncle. Either she has a brother, or her mate did.

[small pumpkin m]

So, I think the most literal interpretation of the spell description by V is:

Step 1, every living direct ancestor (Father, mother, grandparent) or descendant (children, grandchildren, etc) of the subject of the spell dies.

Step 2, every living direct ancestor (Father, mother, grandparent) or descendant (children, grandchildren, etc) of anyone affected by Step 1 dies.
This doesn't actually work, since this would mean that one's brothers and sisters aren't somebody that "directly shares your bloodline". which isn't what most people would assume.

And that is it.

So, we are left with three explanations for what happened to Penelope:

1 - The BD in the Draketooth family tree is either THE ABD, or the YBD. That would mean Girard, Orrin and Penelope's daughter are all direct descendants of the ABD, and therefore Step 1. Penelope, clearly, becomes step 2 and dies.

2 - The spell doesn't work exactly as advertised, either because V didn't know better or the phrasing was off. It actually goes beyond the 2 steps, or each step has a looser definition of "direct bloodline". So, Penelope is Step 2, because Step 1 includes her daughter even though she's not a direct descendant of the ABD, or Penelope is some sort of "Step 3" that was not in the explanation but is still affected.

3 - Penelope just happened to die of something else.
Thing is, a perfectly reasonable description of "directly shares your bloodline" could be every living direct ancestor (Father, mother, grandparent) or descendant (children, grandchildren, etc) of the subject's parents, or the subjects grandparents, or some other arbitrary decision, but we don't know because V's description was simply not specific enough to tell.

[Goosefeather]

To the people claiming that the Draketooths are a part of the ABD's family tree - They are not. The Draketooths are a part of one of the ABD's ancestor's family trees, but not of the ABD herself. There is no direct connection between her and the Draketooth clan, the connection goes through their common ancestor, making them two steps away. Penelope would be three.

I don't know about you, but I consider my cousins to be directly related to me.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yes! Brilliant! Instead of risking having Nale kill them we can just kill them all ourselves!!! That way he CAN'T kill them any more, because they're already dead!! It's genius!!

If you haven't noticed, that was sarcasm.

V had killed an entire clan of people who dedicated not only their lives but als their children's and their children's children to protecting that gate. No amount of ragtag quasi-professional band of heroes could replace that. What you're trying to do is creating an excuse for V's inexcusable action.

I'm not trying to excuse anything.

I'm just saying that them being alive might have actually been worse for the story. That, given the setup, the Linear Guild might have been able to leave town before the Order arrived, and that Penelope's death may have provided the delay which allowed the LG and OOTS to have their confrontation when and where it happened.

Sometimes bad things can have good outcomes. That's not the same as excusing it.

[KillianHawkeye]

I just feel the need to point out that this "1/4 of all black dragons" figure was nothing more than an estimate by V based on nothing but lifespan and reproductive rate. It is not, by any means, a FACT that 1/4 of black dragons were killed.

[Sweet_Goddess]

This also may be nitpicking, but technically Momma Black Dragon called it her only child, not her only offspring.

My Mother talks about me and my sibling as only children because we're separated in age so greatly that we were both treated like only children, this would be even more drastic with dragons, as they could have offspring that were old age category when they're having a new hatchling.

So the 4 large panels way back in All in the Family (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html) could be her 4 adult or older offspring that she never gets to interact with anymore. Or they could be her siblings who also would share her direct bloodline, and one of them or their decedents could be the father of the Draketooth liniage, which all share the bloodline.

Directly related to a member of the bloodline is any spouse or first in-law (Brother, Sister, Father, Daughter, Son, or Mother in-law, not Grandfather, Grandmother, Aunt, Uncle, or Cousin in-law or further removed)



I don't know about you, but I consider my cousins to be directly related to me.

Your cousin's are directly related to you, they share your bloodline (grandparents are the same), but they're not direct relatives to your spouse or your spouse's siblings and family.

--------------------------

People are confusing direct relative and immediate relatives, direct is anyone who is related by blood, immediate is your spouse, parent, sibling, or offspring.

[Quild]

That's indeed the whole matter with time travels. Even when you fix something, it will always turn to be worse. You can always imagine how things could have turned.

I still stay on what I said above, it could have turned better, but you're right Killian, Nale could have arrived before the oots.

I agree with Elan that Nale could turn the Draketeeth (:p) against the oots with only truth, still, they could consider listening the oots (I totally would, especially because the Linear Guild is evil), and realize that they can also defend themselves with truth.

[t209]

I never thought of that! There's a silver lining in every greyclouds. (Maybe Penelope could have been kidnapped or something like that).

[Shale]

I don't know what you people are talking about. Considering myself to be directly related to my nieces and nephews would be madness.

On a more serious note, Haera researched Familicide, not V. The exact words of V's description of the spell wouldn't be definitive.

[EeTee]

Hmm. I'm starting to like this turned-into-stone explanation. As a statue Girard probably wouldn't have been effected by familicide or ageing. And because all who knew he was a statue were instantly killed, there was no time to turn him back (which his family would normally have done if something was threatening the gate).

So now oots only has to find some kind of a trigger that turns him back to flesh?

[Xapi]

This doesn't actually work, since this would mean that one's brothers and sisters aren't somebody that "directly shares your bloodline". which isn't what most people would assume.

Well, I agree that you could add brothers there. It doesn't change the result though, because your brother's children are not directly related to you. The only difference is that brothers go from being Step 1 to being Step 2, wich means your brothers or sister in law, plus your niece and nephews and their children are Step 2 (wich makes sense).


Thing is, a perfectly reasonable description of "directly shares your bloodline" could be every living direct ancestor (Father, mother, grandparent) or descendant (children, grandchildren, etc) of the subject's parents, or the subjects grandparents, or some other arbitrary decision, but we don't know because V's description was simply not specific enough to tell.

I think there's a clear literal interpretation given to us by the word "direct".

We can waltz around what we "feel" it should mean, but with the word direct, looking at a family tree, I think it's pretty clear that the literal explanation is "someone I can draw a direct line to in a family tree" (and this means ancestors, descendants and siblings, actually. It fits, if you ask me.)


I don't know about you, but I consider my cousins to be directly related to me.

They are related to you, and they are part of your family tree, but they are not DIRECTLY related to you, in my opinion. The relation is up two generations to your grandparents and down two generations again to your cousins (or, if you will, up one generation to your parent, sideways to your uncle/aunt, down one generation to your cousin),

That is not direct in my book.

[Wrecan]

I'm a fan of the idea that the IFCC hoped for this result all along and did what they could to make it happen.

We know that "the archfiends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html)" sent Sabine to serve as Nale's concubine.
We know Sabine works for the IFCC, which makes Cedric, Nero, and Lee Archfiends.
We don't know when the IFCC knew about the gates. All we know from this post (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) is that Sabine did not know about the gates until comic 380 and thought it was important enough to tell the IFCC about.

I think it's a reasonable assumption that the IFCC has always known about the Gates.

Here's some more stuff we know about the IFCC.
They can only act on the Material Plane while making a deal or through intermediaries like Qarr and Sabine. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html)
Qarr did not work directly for the IFCC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) until Comic 637.

But here's what we know of their plans.
A long-term goal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) is to unite all fiends under their corporate logo.
They have a plan for the Gates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) that, if successful will make the slaughter of a great number of good dragons trivial.
V came to the attention of the IFCC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) through Sabine.
The IFCC always intended to give V the soul-splice. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) At least one reason was to get Xykon out of Azure City.
The soul-splice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) (and the death of one-quarter of all black dragons and their relatives) was "an unfortunate necessity of a secret scheme to bring down the gods of Good."
They specifically spliced V with a sorceress who had developed the Familicide spell.
Controlling V for 44 minutes and 16 seconds (collectively) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) is "more than sufficient" for their "purposes".
Qarr (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html) is instructed by the IFCC to keep an eye on V, and is even willing to disobey his "master" Zz'dtri to keep V safe. Qarr went so far as to lie to Zz'dtri (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html) by replacing the coordinates for the Demiplane of Extremely Painful Torture with the coordinates for the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing. (How did Z get Qarr as a quasi-familiar? I'm guessing Sabine made the necessary introduction.)

So here's my hypothesis:
The IFCC wants to use the gates to bring down the good gods, probably using some variation on Redcloak's spell to move a gate into the good aligned planes and destroy the good gods. That's a statement that will cement the IFCC's primacy amongst all fiend-kind. To do this, they need a gate. Draketooth's gate seems as good a choice as any.

Sabine works for Lee of the IFCC. The IFCC sends Sabine to be concubine to Nale, an ambitious young man whose stepmom happens to be the mother of a Draketooth. At this point, I think Sabine is there just for information gathering, looking for access to the Draketooth estate, or someone they motivated to soulsplice with Harta and use her familicide spell on a Draketooth relation. But Nale gets himself exiled.

So the IFCC tells Sabine about Dorukan's Necklace of Controlling Anchronistic Monsters. (How do they know? Well, many of those anachronisms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html) are fiends. It's no stretch to imagine that one of those fiends worked for an IFCC Director who keeps tabs on his underlings.) This leads Nale to work for Xykon, getting them closer to Dorukan's gate. But OOTS blows that gate up. However, the IFCC has determined that a draconic relation to Draketooth lives pretty close to that dungeon.

I believe that Sabine told the IFCC about OOTS (including V) in the time between fleeing Haley in their first battle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) and breaking Nale and Thog out of prison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) days later. I think it pretty reaosnable to think Sabine gives regular reports about her activities to her superior, Lee.

I believe that IFCC saw an opportunity to kill off the Draketooths, whose defenses were probably sufficient to protect the Gates from their machinations. I believe they had Sabine lead Nale to the rumor of starmetal in the Wooden Forest, predicting with high certainty that Nale would send OOTS there and kill the adolescent black dragon.

They then nudge the ancient black dragon into vengeance mode, possibly planting the idea of stalking V and killing V's family rather than V. This will leave V alone long enough for them to make their barter, which splices Haerta's soul to V, giving V access to the familicide spell. They probably saw a high probability that V's penchant for poetic repercussions would lead a corrupted V to use it on the dragon, thus killing the Draketooths.

Edited to add: Qarr serves an additional purpose. Even though V was alone, the ABD confesses that she wouldn't have attacked V until V had expended all V's high-level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html). With V alone on an uncharted island, there was little likelihood of that happening until Qarr appeared and V attacked him. Qarr's appearance not only triggered the deal, it triggered the ABD's attack which was a necessary predicate to the deal.

Some admitted problems with the theory...
1. Nale says he knows about the starmetal from a "rumor" and Sabine, the person I think told him about the rumor, is totally against this plan. However, Sabine isn't ignorant about the rumor. She just doesn't understand why Nale is risking the rumor being true (and thus giving Roy access to starmetal) as a ruse to delay OOTS while he sets up his next dastardly plot. None of this precludes Sabine having supplied the rumor to Nale, and having received it from the IFCC. It just means the IFCC did not tell Sabine what they expected to happen when she told Nale of the rumor, even though their extensive psychological research did tell them of it.

Still, this is by far the biggest leap in my theory. It could all be a coincidence that V killed the black dragon distantly related to Draketooth, and the IFCC simply capitalized on that.

2. Qarr didn't work for the IFCC and Qarr had to be on V's island when the Ancient Black Dragon attacked for this to work. This isn't a huge problem because the IFCC has made it clear that they planned this soul splice. It's also not a problem because the ABD wouldn't attack until Qarr showed up and induced V to cast high-level spells. So we know that the IFCC must have manipulated Qarr onto the island, whether or not my theory is true. And the evidence is there to support that Qarr was instructed to pursue V.

Qarr is missing between Comic 585 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html) and Comic 599 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html). When he leaves he says, mysteriously, that he needs to pursue "a few possibilities" that have opened up. During this time, we know he wasn't on Kubota's ship, he wasn't present when Kubota died, he doesn't have access to Hinjo's boat, and he wasn't on the island with the pit fiend. We also know that when he returned he was specifically looking for access to V to make him an offer, and was even willing to risk boarding a ship of paladins to do it.

I am assuming that between 585 and 599 the IFCC asked Qarr's supervisor to tell Qarr to make V an offer. I don't think it's a stretch to believe that somebody told Qarr to do this. After all, we know he went to talk with someone, and we know that immediately thereafter he was motivated specifically to approach V. The only leap is that we know Qarr had not been working directly with IFCC at the time.

Some other questions that will probably never be answered, but would help shed light on the theory.
1. Do we know why the Ancient Black Dragon chose that time to visit her son's uncle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html)? If the IFCC (or an underling) had a hand in that, it would support the theory.

2. Doesn't it seem convenient that the ABD chose a form of vengeance of torturing V's family, something that led V to invoke Haerta's familicide spell as a show of epic one-upmanship? If we learn the ABD had contact with the IFCC (or an underling), they may have planted the idea in their head.

[Spacewolf]

Yes! Brilliant! Instead of risking having Nale kill them we can just kill them all ourselves!!! That way he CAN'T kill them any more, because they're already dead!! It's genius!!

If you haven't noticed, that was sarcasm.

V had killed an entire clan of people who dedicated not only their lives but als their children's and their children's children to protecting that gate. No amount of ragtag quasi-professional band of heroes could replace that. What you're trying to do is creating an excuse for V's inexcusable action.

The thing he was talking about was Yes! instead of them all being dead and us having an easy time getting here nale has turned them all against us and we where killed on sight o well

[RickDaily12]

Cousins are directly related to you.

What ends up happening is that your cousin is the offspring of one of your parents' parents, thus making them your grandparents. Familicide goes both up AND down, and all who share those bloodlines are dead.

Cousin -> Your uncle/aunt -> Your grandparents -> Your mother/father -> You And so forth- -> Your offspring -> Their offspring -> Their offspring...

Penelope, on an added note, as the chain passes down from ABD Cousin -> Grandparent -> Parent -> Orrin -> her child will NOW die because now that the bloodline chain has ended, (second clause now kicks in) the chain moves from her child -> Penelope. So don't be fooled- she is directly related to a member of the bloodline, and thusly, was killed by the spell.

More evidence supporting Penelope was killed by Familicide can be found Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html) and Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)

In the first comic presented, we see that Penelope died of "Mysterious Circumstances", AKA Cause of Death is not even known, no knife wounds, no poison indication or ANYTHING, and that she died about a week prior to that comic- which fits in nicely with the time of death of the ABD bloodline.

In the second comic presented, both Nale and Tarquin are clueless about how she died. They both think the other killed her, but neither of them have any clue about how exactly the other went about doing it, or even why. Why doubt them? What if they honestly don't know how she was murdered?

Maybe because neither of them did it? Familicide is a tricky conclusion to draw as a Cause of Death- because no one besides Vaarsuvius, Blackwing, and the IFCC understand the nature of this spell and the damage it brings.
Familicide theory fits this comic like a glove.

[Goosefeather]

They are related to you, and they are part of your family tree, but they are not DIRECTLY related to you, in my opinion. The relation is up two generations to your grandparents and down two generations again to your cousins (or, if you will, up one generation to your parent, sideways to your uncle/aunt, down one generation to your cousin),

That is not direct in my book.

This is where we differ, obviously.

As I see it, direct relations have a genetic link to you. So cousins, nieces and nephews, cousins once, twice or thrice removed all count.

The indirectness comes from marriage. My mother's brother is directly related to me. So are his kids. His wife, however, is indirectly related to me - no genetic/blood connection to me.

So if I were familicided, the first part would hit my cousins, and their kids and grandkids. The second part would get my aunt, or my cousins' wives/husbands (as long as they had children together).

If I were the ABD, Girard counts as something like my cousin once/twice removed, and all his kids and grandkids are still linked to me, falling under the first part of the spell. Penelope is not related to me, but she is to one of those grandkids, and is hence hit by the second part.

Honestly, the alternate way of looking at it, which people are arguing, simply doesn't work given all the evidence we have in comic. Hence, logically, it cannot be confined to a linear family tree, only going straight up and down. That's ignoring the fact that a family TREE has BRANCHES.

V's comments at the time would make no sense at all if Familicide didn't go ALL the way, taking out all the ABD's relations, and all their relations.

[Wrecan]

Weren't the fiends actually surprised V used such an evil spell as Familicide?
Not at all. Qarr was surprised. But the IFCC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html) implies they implied to V that the soul-splice could have alignment repercussions (even though it didn't) because a "good way to get a decent person to do something horrible is to convince them that they're not responsible for their actions." They wanted V to do something horrible during the soul splice. Did they specifically want V to commit familicide on the black dragon? I think so.

[Antacid]

Do we have any reason to believe that the Familicide spell would affect someone on another plane? Girard is an Epic Caster, he doesn't have to live on the Prime Material. The organisation of a good part of his extended family family in maintaining the gate defences suggests that someone was still acting as the glue which held them together, suggesting against him being dead. He hasn't been set up as a posthumous character, he's been presented as someone mysterious with exposition to dole out.

[Shale]

That is not direct in my book.

You're not writing this book, though.

[Wrecan]

Excellent point.

[Psyren]

On a more serious note, Haera researched Familicide, not V. The exact words of V's description of the spell wouldn't be definitive.

She was inside his head at the time though. Just because we don't see her ghostly silhouette saying the words doesn't mean the info didn't come from her.

There's some room for doubt there, but I see no reason for her to lie to V, for V to lie to the dragon, or for any of them to be mistaken as to the extent of the spell, given that eradicating her entire line was V's express goal.

[Sweet_Goddess]

Also, before you try to guess at this, look at the images, we were shown a really good example of how the spell worked, it was on the strip before the one V's explained it in.

We see 3 panels of a Dragon fighting Adventurers over its hoard, it is the first shown to die, and looks very similar to Momma Black herself... my guess is it is her sibling, probably the one she was closest to, then we see 3 panels equal sized to the previous 3, with 3 different dragons, whom I'm guessing are her other 3 siblings, from there we see the panels getting smaller and smaller, showing in my opinion, decedentsy, meaning each row is the offspring of the draconics in the previous row... and those are just some of the ones in the direct bloodline, not the ones directly related to them... if any of those depicted dragons was Girard's Grandfather, then the entire Draketooth family is a direct relation, and every one of their spouses, in-laws, and ex-spouses is a direct relation to them... but that is the stopgap, the spell kills those people too, not their bloodlines.

[DougTheHead]

Really? We're arguing about Penelope?

Look at it this way, then- whether or not she counts as a "blood relative," what was V's reason for casting the spell?

V casting the spell was at least partially inspired by what V hirself had done- V killed the black dragon to protect hir family- which included V's spouse- from revenge. If the spell had left spouses alive, V would have created a hundred new enemies rather than eliminating all potential enemies. It doesn't make sense, given V's reasons for casting the spell, for the spell to leave out spouses. Anyway, many marriage traditions in the real world end by declaring spouses to be "one blood"- you could argue that Penelope, by marrying a Draketooth and never officially getting divorced, was still in the Draketooth bloodline.

[dehro]

That is not direct in my book.

it clearly is in Haera's... I mean..we actually see it happen.

[Shale]

She was inside his head at the time though. Just because we don't see her ghostly silhouette saying the words doesn't mean the info didn't come from her.


The info came from her, but that doesn't mean V understood and expressed it with mathematical precision in an off-the-cuff description.

[ellindsey]

The only part I'm not convinced about is the IFCC knowing about the Gates before Sabine told them. I think the theory still works if we assume that sending the Order on the starmetal sidequest and having them kill the young black dragon was unplanned by the IFCC, but that after finding out about that and the Gates from Sabine they did enough research to put together their plan.

There is also another piece that may fit into the puzzle in the Oracle. We know that the Oracle was specifically granted the ability of prophecy by Tiamat, and that Tiamat is specifically invoked every time the Oracle makes an official prediction. It is not unreasonable to assume that Tiamat is aware of every question that is asked, and the answer given. We also know that Tiamat can call the IFCC on short notice. It is not unreasonable to assume that a per-established line of communication exists between them. We also know that the ABD went to the Oracle to learn who killed her son. It is not unreasonable to suggest that the IFCC learned of the ABD's quest for vengeance from the oracle via Tiamat. Obviously, if they planned this all and were getting information from her, they didn't let her know about the part of the plan that involved killing a quarter of all black dragons.

[Person_Man]

I disagree.

Unless he and his phylactery are destroyed, Xykon literally has eternity to search for the gates. Given his vast resources and magic, eventually he will find them.

If Girard was alive, Xykon would have to defeat an epic level Illusionist and his family of casters on their home turf, where they've had years and years to prepare their defenses and renew them on a regular basis.

Now that Girard and all of his family members are dead, only the Order of the Stick (and whatever lingering permanent spells/traps/monsters are left) stand between Xykon and the gate.

[Sweet_Goddess]

This is where we differ, obviously.

As I see it, direct relations have a genetic link to you. So cousins, nieces and nephews, cousins once, twice or thrice removed all count.

The indirectness comes from marriage. My mother's brother is directly related to me. So are his kids. His wife, however, is indirectly related to me - no genetic/blood connection to me.

So if I were familicided, the first part would hit my cousins, and their kids and grandkids. The second part would get my aunt, or my cousins' wives/husbands (as long as they had children together).

If I were the ABD, Girard counts as something like my cousin once/twice removed, and all his kids and grandkids are still linked to me, falling under the first part of the spell. Penelope is not related to me, but she is to one of those grandkids, and is hence hit by the second part.

Honestly, the alternate way of looking at it, which people are arguing, simply doesn't work given all the evidence we have in comic. Hence, logically, it cannot be confined to a linear family tree, only going straight up and down. That's ignoring the fact that a family TREE has BRANCHES.

V's comments at the time would make no sense at all if Familicide didn't go ALL the way, taking out all the ABD's relations, and all their relations.

You are slightly mistaken, your wife and her siblings and parents are all directly related to you, but only your wife is directly related to your siblings and parents, and her nieces and nephews are not directly related to you, nor are her cousins, uncles, or aunts... Step-Children/Step-Parents/step-siblings are not however (Which is why Tarquin, Nale, and Elan were not killed by 'Mysterious Circumstances')... which personally I think is a big mistake in the spells creation, because depending on the step-sibling/step-child/step-parent/step-grandchild, you can get some surprisingly vengeful people when you hurt the step-relative. My mom's stepfather was a better grandfather to me then my biological grandfather was, and I may not like my autistic stepbrother, but you hurt him, and I'll rain holy heck down on your hiney.

[Xapi]

This is where we differ, obviously.

As I see it, direct relations have a genetic link to you. So cousins, nieces and nephews, cousins once, twice or thrice removed all count.

The indirectness comes from marriage. My mother's brother is directly related to me. So are his kids. His wife, however, is indirectly related to me - no genetic/blood connection to me.

So if I were familicided, the first part would hit my cousins, and their kids and grandkids. The second part would get my aunt, or my cousins' wives/husbands (as long as they had children together).

If I were the ABD, Girard counts as something like my cousin once/twice removed, and all his kids and grandkids are still linked to me, falling under the first part of the spell. Penelope is not related to me, but she is to one of those grandkids, and is hence hit by the second part.

Honestly, the alternate way of looking at it, which people are arguing, simply doesn't work given all the evidence we have in comic. Hence, logically, it cannot be confined to a linear family tree, only going straight up and down. That's ignoring the fact that a family TREE has BRANCHES.

V's comments at the time would make no sense at all if Familicide didn't go ALL the way, taking out all the ABD's relations, and all their relations.

I see your point, and your idea makes sense. The only problem with it is that taking it too literaly, I'd be hard pressed if asked to find when or why the deaths stopped at all. Every black dragon is likely to be related to every other eventually if you are so open with your definition of direct relation.

I disagree that the alternative I (and others) are putting forward doesn't work. It does clearly take out complete branches of a FAMILY TREE (as you put it). By killing the (for instance) grandparents of the ABD, every cousin in dead via Step 2. It explains the deaths of everyone in the Draketooth family perfectly, as long as the Dragon in the Tree (DitT from now on) is related by blood (not necesarily direct) to the ABD (brother, cousin, parent, the ABD or YBD itself).

The only minor problem is the death of Penelope. That requires either for the DitT to be the ABD or the YBD, or another (deceased?) children of the ABD.

[Rad]

Seems pretty resonable to me. I also believe V might take some time before confessing that.

[Xapi]

it clearly is in Haera's... I mean..we actually see it happen.

How so? 10char

[Xapi]

it clearly is in Haera's... I mean..we actually see it happen.

How so? 10char

[Silfir]

With the recent twist, there's just no way Girard could be dead. It would let Vaarsuvius far, far, far too easy. He or she needs to face his or her sins head-on, in the form of perhaps the only survivor of Familicide. The Order of the Stick does sometime play with the expectations of the audience, sometimes going for the anti-climactic but funny twist, but Familicide and its repercussions are too big for that.

Add to that the conspicuous shot of Girard's statue, and I think Flesh to Stone seems most likely. He probably left behind instructions to turn him back (or recall from another plane, or whatever is keeping him from burying his dead) at the first sign of danger - but Familicide killed all, and it killed all instantly.

[September]

Just checking so I got the correct definition of bloodlines and family relations. Would you said that this is correct? (though perhaps a bit macabre) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6387957/Duck%20familycide.jpg

[SavageWombat]

By my interpretation the first wave hits Daphne and Eider Duck, as siblings of the target, and their direct children. It would then, for example, bounce off of Gladstone Gander and take out Goostave, Daphne's husband.

[Goosefeather]

You are slightly mistaken, your wife and her siblings and parents are all directly related to you, but only your wife is directly related to your siblings and parents, and her nieces and nephews are not directly related to you, nor are her cousins, uncles, or aunts... Step-Children/Step-Parents/step-siblings are not however (Which is why Tarquin, Nale, and Elan were not killed by 'Mysterious Circumstances')... which personally I think is a big mistake in the spells creation, because depending on the step-sibling/step-child/step-parent/step-grandchild, you can get some surprisingly vengeful people when you hurt the step-relative. My mom's stepfather was a better grandfather to me then my biological grandfather was, and I may not like my autistic stepbrother, but you hurt him, and I'll rain holy heck down on your hiney.

I think your definition of 'direct relation' is very different from mine. My wife would not be directly related to me. If she was, that would be incest.

I would be indirectly related to her through my kids. Blood relation down from me to them, blood relation up from them to her, but no direct blood relation between us.

I am not related to any of her family (siblings, parents, cousins, etc), but my kids would be. She is not related to any of my family, but our kids would be.
Familicide on me would hit my kids, my parents, cousins, etc. in the first round. It would hit my wife and her family (indirectly related to me through the kids), in the second round.

Similarly, if my brother were married with kids, his kids would go out in the first round (direct blood relation to me), and their mother and her family would be hit by the second round (direct relation to my nephews/nieces, but no blood relation to me).

I agree that step-relatives are a flaw in the spell, though :smallsmile:

[Xapi]

Just checking so I got the correct definition of bloodlines and family relations. Would you said that this is correct? (though perhaps a bit macabre) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6387957/Duck%20familycide.jpg

In my interpretation, no.

The Red marks are cool, but you're missing many purple ones.

Donald and Della (to take the leftmost realtions as an example) are not only directly related to Hortense, but also to her sons and daughters (they are their grandparents), wich seem to be Downy and Fergus (it's kinda messy, what's the deal with Matilda there?), THEIR children Molly and Dirty Dingus (they are their greatgrand parents) and so on.

[Krim]

Except that doesn't make intuitive sense; so in that case, somebody could kill off, say, a god by finding one of their children who is a baby and casting familicide on them? Sure, the Giant COULD make it work that way, if he decided that the universe hates the OotS (a possibility which I suppose is not entirely implausible).

I have to imagine there was some sort of save to familicide. It would likely require an insanely high save, which probably could only be made by an epic spellcaster like Girard. If none of the dragons that we saw die were epic (fairly plausible, given how extraordinarily rare an epic character is), it's entirely reasonable to think that it was simply mathematically impossible for them to make the save.

The way it makes more sense, is that it fails/stop at targets with more (or maybe 5 more, whatever) Hit Dice that the target it is cast upon. It also makes it A TON more balanced, since you can not, for instance, kill Roy by casting it on Julia.

[Goosefeather]

Just checking so I got the correct definition of bloodlines and family relations. Would you said that this is correct? (though perhaps a bit macabre) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6387957/Duck%20familycide.jpg

I'd say Daphne, Gladstone, Fethry, Abner, Eider, Gus, Fanny, Cuthbert and Casey should all be red.

Goostave, Lulubelle, Luke, Gretchen, Matilda, Scrooge, Downy, Fergus, Jake, Angus, Molly, Dingus, Quagmire would all be purple. I can't quite work out what's going on further down but I feel most would be purple as well.

If Scrooge were married with kids, his kids would be purple, but his wife wouldn't.

Familicide, curiously enough, takes out the vast majority of the family tree. This is why it's so shocking.

[ellindsey]

The question is not what you or I or any reasonable person define as direct relation. The question is how did Haerta, an insane necromancer bent on destroying anyone who had ever slighter her, define it. Given that casting it on a single black dragon destroyed about a quarter of all black dragons in existence, it appears that her definition extends quite far.

[September]

By my interpretation the first wave hits Daphne and Eider Duck, as siblings of the target, and their direct children. It would then, for example, bounce off of Gladstone Gander and take out Goostave, Daphne's husband. It might be a matter of different definitions then. I'd say that while Quackmore, Daphne and Eider all belong to Grandma Coot's bloodline, Daphne and Eider does not belong to Quackmore's bloodline as they are not children, descendants, parents or ancestors to him. That's the definition of direct bloodline I've picked up (though it's a word often use loosely I guess)


The Red marks are cool, but you're missing many purple ones.

Donald and Della (to take the leftmost realtions as an example) are not only directly related to Hortense, but also to her sons and daughters (they are their grandparents), wich seem to be Downy and Fergus (it's kinda messy, what's the deal with Matilda there?), THEIR children Molly and Dirty Dingus (they are their greatgrand parents) and so on. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding you I'm thinking you might be looking at it upside-down. Donna and Della are Hortense's children, not her parents.

[September]

The question is not what you or I or any reasonable person define as direct relation. The question is how did Haerta, an insane necromancer bent on destroying anyone who had ever slighter her, define it. Given that casting it on a single black dragon destroyed about a quarter of all black dragons in existence, it appears that her definition extends quite far. Depending on how epic magic actually works, it might even be a matter of how the metaphysical/magical connections of family relations and bloodlines work. ;)
But yeah, I get your point.

[Xapi]

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding you I'm thinking you might be looking at it upside-down. Donna and Della are Hortense's children, not her parents.


Oh, I see.

In that case, Downy and Fergus, Molly and Dingus, and any other ancestors (it gets messy going up the tree there) are also purple because they are directly related to Della and Donald. Daphne, Eider and Casey's children (Gladstone, Fethry, Abner, Faney and Cuthberth) and grandchildren (Gus Goose) should also be purple because they're grandchildren or greatgrandchildren of reds (Humperdink and Elvira or Gertrude and Clinton, respectively).

The thing is that to mark a given person red, said person needs to be alive at the time, meaning that to mark the descendants purple you need a relation through living relatives.

[Xapi]

It might be a matter of different definitions then. I'd say that while Quackmore, Daphne and Eider all belong to Grandma Coot's bloodline, Daphne and Eider does not belong to Quackmore's bloodline as they are not children, descendants, parents or ancestors to him. That's the definition of direct bloodline I've picked up (though it's a word often use loosely I guess)

Yeah, that one's tricky, but their children should still be purple even if they are purple, because they are direct descendants of reds (Grandma).

Also, I think someone should edit the thread's title to reflect the lovely turn this thread has taken.

Something in the lines of "How does V's familycide do that? Can we kill Scrooge McDuck yet?"

[Psyren]

The info came from her, but that doesn't mean V understood and expressed it with mathematical precision in an off-the-cuff description.

It doesn't mean he didn't either.

[Mo_the_Hawked]

Orrin's daughter is related to Penelope by bloodline,
Penelope's would-be-child would be related to her by bloodline,
Penelope's would-be-child would be related to Tarquin by bloodline,
Elan and Nale is related to Tarquin by bloodline...

No, Elan and Nale would be half brothers to a Penelope/Tarquin child. Elan/Nale and even Tarquin (Outside of the legal through marriage definition) have no relation to Penelope or anyone from her family. And would certainly not share a bloodline. Bloodlines Travel downward through procreation, children gain both bloodlines of there parents. Thier parents do not gain a bloodline.

[allenw]

The info came from her, but that doesn't mean V understood and expressed it with mathematical precision in an off-the-cuff description.

True; but given that this is V we're talking about, the odds are that that's what happened. :smallsmile:

And given that Rich would have carefully crafted the description to make sure that it matched with what the spell was shown to do later on... I'd say that the odds are darned close to 100% that the spell works as V described. :smallbiggrin:

[AGow95]

I think it applies to any blood relative, and that since Penelope was the mother of a Draketooth, and therefore blood relative of the family, she died, but husbands/wives/in-laws don't count, because otherwise Tarquin Elan and Nale would be dead, maybe they would if Tarquin had a child with her, thus providing another link by biological relation, but he didn't (as far as I know)

[Firewind]

I think it applies to any blood relative, and that since Penelope was the mother of a Draketooth, and therefore blood relative of the family, she died, but husbands/wives/in-laws don't count, because otherwise Tarquin Elan and Nale would be dead, maybe they would if Tarquin had a child with her, thus providing another link by biological relation, but he didn't (as far as I know)

Wasn't Penelope killed by Sabine? And all the people who are shown are clearly people born into the Draketooth clan and not people who married into it or otherwise had a child with a Draketooth so how would Penelope's DNA suddenly change due to having sex with someone? :smalltongue:

[Shale]

No, both Nale and Tarquin assumed the other had killed Penelope. Sabine would have no reason to hide it from Nale if she was the guilty party.

And re: Penelope. She was the mother of a Draketooth. Even though she wasn't related to the black dragon, she was caught in the second-order effect.

[thepsyker]

Just checking so I got the correct definition of bloodlines and family relations. Would you said that this is correct? (though perhaps a bit macabre) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6387957/Duck%20familycide.jpgThe McDuck side of the tree gets a little confusing, but I would say, IMO, that the only ones on that chart who wouldn't be killed by the spell are Luke Goose and Gretchen Grebe as they would repesent a third jump.

I would add Daphne, Eider, Gladstone, Fethery, and Abner to the red first step.

Then everyone, but Luke and Gretchen would be hit by the second jump to those directly related to the first bloodline and everyone directly related to them. With Gustave, Lulubelle, Casey, Hortenese, and (blank) Duck representing the main targets of this level with the spell killing everyone directly related to them.

Luke and Gretchen would then represent a third jump. They would only be caught in a third jump as they are only connected to the main targets of the second jump by marriage.

Again the McDuck side is kind of jumbled so there might be a few survivors on that side that I'm not catching.

[sockmonkey]

Clause 1: "Anyone who shares your bloodline is dead."
Clause 2: "Anyone who is directly related to someone who shares your bloodline is also dead."

Penelope's son was a Draketooth, hence someone who fit under Clause 1. As such, Penelope, being directly related to her son, fit under Clause 2. Any blood relatives of Penelope also died.I think I've figured out the limit. it would kill the non-related parent and siblings of someone decended from the BD but not anyone related to the non-dragon-related parent and siblings because it targeted them by association, not by bloodline specifically.

tedit: To relieve confusion I made a chart.
Black is the original black dragon, grey is the direct descendants and ancestors, red are those killed by association, green are not killed.
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5493/familicidechart.gif
So aunts and uncles get killed but cousins don't.
Ah, I see someone else is as geeky as me and made a chart too while I was doing mine.

[Firewind]

I think I've figured out the limit. it would kill the non-related parent and siblings of someone decended from the BD but not anyone related to the non-dragon-related parent and siblings because it targeted them by association, not by bloodline specifically.

That is what I was trying to explain but due to being dyslexic, I found it hard to really write down what was in my head (it also means I love Firefox's spellchecker). TvTropes is really good at explaining what it really is and what it's really like to have it (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/Dyslexia).

V does say that V killed everyone who can claim to be part of ABD's family is dead and technically that does mean that the people only related by marriage and not birthed a Draketooth would have been spared.

[eilandesq]

Maybe it's just me, but if the world hadn't just been horribly endangered by it, would it really be a *bad* thing that a paranoid cult that survived for decades via embezzlement and kidnapping had been wiped out? There are probably several generations of Penelopes out there in the OotS world who wouldn't think so, assuming they weren't whacked by the Familicide.

[Who149]

I saw the spell as, everyone related by blood dies, and everyone related to them dies too, forever down the line and sideways.

Marriage would not count, but having a child together does. I don't think it stops, and in theory that would mean Penelope's entire family is dead. Its probably just that nobody noticed, cared, or they were dead anyway, seeing as they live in a harsh land ruled by a tyrant that trades rule every few years.

[Jetty]

If it were other circumstances, I may agree with you, but this Family is directly protecting the fabric of the universe, so... No, the loss of this family is terrible. :smallfurious:

[Math_Mage]

Girard living on another plane would be no defense against this spell, as it doesn't stop on the Prime.


The way it makes more sense, is that it fails/stop at targets with more (or maybe 5 more, whatever) Hit Dice that the target it is cast upon. It also makes it A TON more balanced, since you can not, for instance, kill Roy by casting it on Julia.

There's no reason at all to consider Familicide 'balanced'. It wiped out one quarter of the black dragons on the planet.

[Goosefarble]

Paranoid cult yes, but it's not as if they're harming anyone, is it? All they're doing is just keeping to themselves inside their little enclave, not interacting with anyone apart from occasionally having children with women in some of the cities around Windy Canyon. They didn't deserve to die - and really, does any entire family ever deserve to die? Octogenarians, children and all?

[allenw]

True; but given that this is V we're talking about, the odds are that that's what happened. :smallsmile:

And given that Rich would have carefully crafted the description to make sure that it matched with what the spell was shown to do later on... I'd say that the odds are darned close to 100% that the spell works as V described. :smallbiggrin:

There's also the possibility that this is an illusion that shapes itself according to the psyches of its targets; but in that case, it would still match up with however V would expect the spell to work. :smalltongue:

[Fish]

I agree there's a strong implication the IFCC has been involved, but I think we may pin it down more closely.

At the time Nale infiltrated the OOTS, Roy had just learned that Xykon's "next target" was Girard's Gate. Sabine goes to the IFCC to report on all she knows (including the starmetal quest and what she knows of the Order). The IFCC begins looking for a way to get to the supposed next gate.

Possibly through Tiamat and the Oracle, they encourage the ancient black dragon to attack V's family

[aldeayeah]

Also, it's a good thing Tarquin and Penelope didn't have any kids or Tarquin would also be toast. And ELAN would be toast (!!)
Don't think so, ABD and Tarquin are twice-politically removed. If Tarquin had taken a Draketooth wife, on the other hand... :smalleek:

[LudiDrizzt]

I don't know why familicide has been such a hot debate, the mechanics of it seem incredibly simple. Even a cursory glance makes how it works obvious.

Maybe this picture will help demonstrate my understanding of it.

http://i39.tinypic.com/10dd20w.png

As you can see, this is a rough family tree. Familicide strikes the Momma dragon, would travel downward to kill offspring, if any were living, then travel upward to kill any parents, grandparents, etc, ad infinitum. Next, it travels back downward, killing all of the other children of her parents, in this case, the hypothetical brother we will assume fathered Girard's family line. If not him, but rather, a grandparent or even a father, it matters not, the end result is the same. Familicide then travels down that entire tree, killing everyone who was born from that lineage.

NEXT, familicide spikes upward once, killing any who married into the family and had an offspring with the family line. It does not, however, go on to kill parents and grandparents of those individuals, as they did not "share blood" with a direct child of the family line affected, merely the blood of someone else who was affected.

Also, I may have missed a generation or something, but it's irrelevant. In addition, whoever sired offspring with Girard would be dead as well, I forgot to draw the green arrow indicating it.

EDIT: It is still possible it may extend upward farther, killing, for instance, Penelope's parents, grandparents, etc, and all of their offspring, but it would leave anyone who married into their family and had offspring with them untouched in that case.

Both are viable. One has a much larger body count attached, so may very well be the right assumption.

[eilandesq]

Paranoid cult yes, but it's not as if they're harming anyone, is it? All they're doing is just keeping to themselves inside their little enclave, not interacting with anyone apart from occasionally having children with women in some of the cities around Windy Canyon. They didn't deserve to die - and really, does any entire family ever deserve to die? Octogenarians, children and all?

You're overlooking the whole "marrying women under false pretenses, stealing their life savings, and kidnapping their children" thing. Her later marriage to Tarquin notwithstanding, this was obviously a bad thing for Penelope and anyone who cared about her--and for anyone else in the same situation.

[Ghosty]

...Add to that the conspicuous shot of Girard's statue, and I think Flesh to Stone seems most likely. He probably left behind instructions to turn him back (or recall from another plane, or whatever is keeping him from burying his dead) at the first sign of danger - but Familicide killed all, and it killed all instantly.

Wouldn't Durkon's True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) allow him to see that the statue of Girard in your hypothetical was transmuted from its original nature? Of course we can imagine an Epic-level permanent Statue or Flesh to Stone that wouldn't be visible through True Seeing, etc...

[t209]

I disagree.

Unless he and his phylactery are destroyed, Xykon literally has eternity to search for the gates. Given his vast resources and magic, eventually he will find them.

If Girard was alive, Xykon would have to defeat an epic level Illusionist and his family of casters on their home turf, where they've had years and years to prepare their defenses and renew them on a regular basis.

Now that Girard and all of his family members are dead, only the Order of the Stick (and whatever lingering permanent spells/traps/monsters are left) stand between Xykon and the gate.
What if Xykon curb stomp with this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)?

[sockmonkey]

Yeah someone totally unrelated only gets nailed if they have a child with one of the direct descendants. Then it's the one-step killed by association bit. We made charts in the other thread.

[Murray]

Philosophically speaking, going to the extremes is a bad thing, and defending the existence of the universe has proven to be no different.

Creating a creepy paranoid irrational quasi-inbred eggs-in-one-genetic-basket defense force appears to have some failings, also meaning that lives were sacrificed unnecessarily, probably including more innocent lives than just Penelope. Soon's defense scheme led to genocide and war-crimes, while Girard's defense scheme created a xenophobic and criminalistic family that relied on baby-snatching to reproduce, so both have some ethical issues to them. And while the OotS still have a gate to krackakoom, it does seem to look like Soon's army of paladin stooges, Lyrian's happy tree friends, and Dorukan's maverick lifestyle were a bit more effective at preventing an armageddon than Girard's methods, which didn't even get a chance to meet the enemy (that we know of).

[jmucchiello]

You're overlooking the whole "marrying women under false pretenses, stealing their life savings, and kidnapping their children" thing. Her later marriage to Tarquin notwithstanding, this was obviously a bad thing for Penelope and anyone who cared about her--and for anyone else in the same situation.

Exactly. Do you we have any idea what alignment Girard was? He hated Soon, which is typical "Chaotic" PC behavior when there's a party paladin.

EDIT: strikeout above, didn't mean to limit my question to "you"

[JCarter426]

That was also after Haerta broke free.
Good point, I forgot that.

If there is a defense against Familicide, it would have to be epic-level.

If there is some spell or magic item that can protect against such a powerful and specific act of necromancy, it would have to be epically powerful.

And if anyone would prepare a defense against such a spell, they'd a have to be insanely paranoid. Which is one of the few things we know about Girard.

My guess is a specific spell - he's spent the last (how many?) decades camped out in the desert without particularly much to do, so he designed a defensive ward spell that protects him against assassination spells like Familicide. It'd probably also work against stuff like Soul Dominion or Demise Unseen, if not all save-or-die or no-save spells.... The precise details don't matter much, as long as it blocks Familicide.
Maybe. That isn't his field of expertise, though, as it was with Dorukan. And being a sorcerer would certainly limit his capabilities in this regard.

I don't think he's already dead, since his picture seems to be highlighted on the family tree, as if to represent his current leadership of the clan.
Eh, I thought that was just because he was all grandpa to them. And it was written on or carved into the wall, so it's not like they could change it with ease. Unless it's an illusion, I guess.

Except that doesn't make intuitive sense; so in that case, somebody could kill off, say, a god by finding one of their children who is a baby and casting familicide on them? Sure, the Giant COULD make it work that way, if he decided that the universe hates the OotS (a possibility which I suppose is not entirely implausible).
I think it's safe to assume the spell can't kill something that's unkillable, like a god. And that the universe hates the poor Order.

I have to imagine there was some sort of save to familicide. It would likely require an insanely high save, which probably could only be made by an epic spellcaster like Girard. If none of the dragons that we saw die were epic (fairly plausible, given how extraordinarily rare an epic character is), it's entirely reasonable to think that it was simply mathematically impossible for them to make the save.
I don't think even Girard's saves would match up to the ancient black dragon's.

Girard living on another plane would be no defense against this spell, as it doesn't stop on the Prime.
We never saw it kill any dragons that were on another plane. Granted, we didn't see it kill Girard Draketooth or his descendents either, but still - there's no evidence so far that its range is that great.

[LudiDrizzt]

People are trying to find fridge brilliance where none exists.

From the IFCCs eyes alone it's clear that they did not, and never would have, expected a spell like familicide happening.

So no, they did not plan any of this.

[FujinAkari]

Obviously, the metagaming reason is to show the readers the effects of Familicide, but from an in-character perspective, why would the Draketooth's have made a massive Mural tracing their line back to the ABD (or at least A BD :P)?

I know Girrard is painted someone who only trusts his family, but randomly choosing to paint a mural with his family that conveniently connects them to a dragon V just happens to have cast Familicde on? It all seems very... convenient.

Is there a chance that this room is just an epic-level illusion put in place to test the OOTS and see whether they're quest is important enough to overcome the deep schizms between their personalities, because that would seem exactly the type of thing which Girrard would need to know before he could consider working with someone.

[Murray]

Wouldn't Durkon's True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) allow him to see that the statue of Girard in your hypothetical was transmuted from its original nature? Of course we can imagine an Epic-level permanent Statue or Flesh to Stone that wouldn't be visible through True Seeing, etc...

Well dang... And I really liked the "That's no statue" theory.

[Cizak]

They are proud of their heritage and it's a system to show everyone who is/was living there?

[Manga Shoggoth]

...Because some people (not even necessarly Girrard) are obsessed with family history?

I had a great-aunt who had a virtual monomania about her scottish background, right down to having the appropriate tartan on the wall.

[FujinAkari]

Wouldn't Durkon's True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) allow him to see that the statue of Girard in your hypothetical was transmuted from its original nature? Of course we can imagine an Epic-level permanent Statue or Flesh to Stone that wouldn't be visible through True Seeing, etc...

Flesh to Stone isn't an illusion, it literally turns someone's flesh... to stone. True Seeing wouldn't do anything.

Edit: True Seeing allows you to see the true form behind a transmutation, but Flesh to Stone -changes- yuor form. It isn't like Polymorph where you are still a guy that has been changed to a bear, and will eventually revert to being a guy when the magic fades, Flesh to Stone permanently alters your phisiology and will never wear off, because the change isn't being sustained by magic.