[3.5] Rogue - PHB material ONLY. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Sultan

2012-02-27, 07:52 PM

Hey guys, just starting a new character for a game i'm joining soon.

I'm still definitely a "noob" compared to many D&D players. I've played a lot of 3.5 games, typically as monk or sorc, and we were allowed to use -EVERY- book. In this upcoming game I am joining, we can ONLY use 3.5 PHB. No PHBII, PHBIII.. Just the 3.5 PHB. 32 pt buy. Starting at level 4.

I've read the rogue guides and have definitely gotten some ideas, but still have questions, and still need pointers.

So far, things are looking like this:

Race: Human

STR 10
DEX 19 (added 1 pt from lvl 4)
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 10

Skill Ranks: (77 pts spent assuming I can add properly)

Bluff 5
Diplomacy 7 (+4 synergy)
Hide 7
Listen 7
Move Silently 7
Search 7
Spot 7
Tumble 7
UMD 7
Sense Motive 5
Sleight of Hand 1 (+2 synergy)
Use Rope 2
Open Lock 3
Balance 5 (+2 synergy)

Feats:
Weapon Finesse
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Initiative
...and of course the Rogue class feats for a lvl 4 character.

Equipment:
MH: Rapier
OH: Dagger
Armor: Mastercraft Studded Leather

I'm going to be primarily melee, naturally using sneak attacks and flanking.

Now for some questions.

I wanted to choose 2 rapiers as my dual wielded weapons, but since rapiers are not "light" I made my offhand weapon a dagger, since it would only give me a -2 penalty to both that way, opposed to a -4 penalty to both if I put a rapier in my offhand.

Now, was that an ok decision, or should I have chosen 2 rapiers? Or even more, should I have chosen something else entirely?

I chose STR: 10 WIS: 8 instead of STR: 8 WIS: 10 because of carrying weight issues. My character wears a Travellers Outfit which weighs 5 lbs. That, with armor and weapons, 2 trail rations, hooded lantern and a couple half lb things, brings me to exactly 33 lbs carried, and my light load with 10 str is exactly 33. I didn't want to have any penalties for going over 33 lbs. Is that wise? Should I go to 8 str/10 wis instead of 10 str/8 wis and just deal with the penalties for being medium load? I have a pack horse where I keep a lot of extra gear (food and whatnot). Should I be wearing travellers outfit, taking up 5 lbs that could be used to carry other things? I'm not even carrying my thieves tools as it is currently because I don't want to go over 33 lbs. What I was planning to do was to remove travellers clothes and pack them on my pack horse in order to bring my thieves tools and other things when i'm NOT in a town/social/story area... ie. when entering a cave or travelling in the wilderness. Places where I won't need to be wearing my outfit.
Seem ok? Seem terribly stupid? Thoughts?

Another thing I read is that some people say two weapon fighting is a bad idea for a melee rogue because it's so situational, and is a waste of feats. Thoughts?

Basically, since i'm not the most experienced player in the world, and am fairly new to playing a rogue (in D&D, at least), I don't want to let the party down by not being properly equipped or built and dying as a result.

Any ideas are appreciated.

Cheers!

sonofzeal

2012-02-27, 08:04 PM

- TWF is fine for a Rogue, since it gives them more chances to get Sneak Attack in. Really, Rogues are one of the few characters for whom it's reliably worth it.

- Shortswords are "light", you're proficient with them, and they do slightly more base damage than a dagger. Rapier+shortsword is a good combo.

- You probably want "Disable Device" on your list of trained skills. It might not be your primary focus, but if you're a Rogue then people will expect you to deal with traps. It's also quite a useful skill, if you're creative.

- You might be better off taking the 2 points you spent on Cha and putting them into Strength, if you want to be doing combat a lot. It's only +1 damage, but you can't count on Sneak Attack all the time.

- Don't you have starting gold for good equipment, if you're starting at lvl 4?

Particle_Man

2012-02-27, 08:07 PM

Your worn set of clothing does not count for encumbrance purposes.

And at 4th level you can afford a Mithral Chain Shirt, I think.

What is the composition of the rest of the party? You work off of flanking. Are you sure you have party members and/or summoned allies to flank with?

I would up Int to 16 for Disable Device and cut Con to 12 and Cha to 8.

For the future, there is a magical short sword that gives you +4 to hit and damage when you sneak attack with it. Pretty sweet if you sneak attack a lot.

Oh, and get some holy water, in case your DM gets undead happy and you want to feel not-useless.

Sultan

2012-02-27, 08:12 PM

Thank you for the reply. Yeah, I was tinkering with adding disable device in there. Also, the short sword idea seems wise. That would put me over 33 lbs, but if I lowered cha by 2 and raised str by 2 that wouldn't be a problem. The only thing is, i've been reading the blog of sessions and the world we'll be playing in, and so far it doesn't seem like there's more combat than non-combat situations, so I'm torn about lowering cha and raising str. :smalleek:

We were allowed to start with 400 gp. 100 gp went to masterwork thieves tools. 75 gp went to light horse, 150 gp more went towards masterwork studded leather. I don't really think I can afford anything fantastic with 400 gp.

The character can certainly still be edited, as the next session is over a week away.

Lonely Tylenol

2012-02-27, 08:18 PM

I wanted to choose 2 rapiers as my dual wielded weapons, but since rapiers are not "light" I made my offhand weapon a dagger, since it would only give me a -2 penalty to both that way, opposed to a -4 penalty to both if I put a rapier in my offhand.

Now, was that an ok decision, or should I have chosen 2 rapiers? Or even more, should I have chosen something else entirely?

Short sword is rapier lite (identical damage dice and type, but 19-20 threat range as opposed to 18-20).

I chose STR: 10 WIS: 8 instead of STR: 8 WIS: 10 because of carrying weight issues. My character wears a Travellers Outfit which weighs 5 lbs. That, with armor and weapons, 2 trail rations, hooded lantern and a couple half lb things, brings me to exactly 33 lbs carried, and my light load with 10 str is exactly 33. I didn't want to have any penalties for going over 33 lbs. Is that wise? Should I go to 8 str/10 wis instead of 10 str/8 wis and just deal with the penalties for being medium load? I have a pack horse where I keep a lot of extra gear (food and whatnot). Should I be wearing travellers outfit, taking up 5 lbs that could be used to carry other things? I'm not even carrying my thieves tools as it is currently because I don't want to go over 33 lbs. What I was planning to do was to remove travellers clothes and pack them on my pack horse in order to bring my thieves tools and other things when i'm NOT in a town/social/story area... ie. when entering a cave or travelling in the wilderness. Places where I won't need to be wearing my outfit.
Seem ok? Seem terribly stupid? Thoughts?

Encumbrance is a tricky devil. If your DM is using it, then he means for those penalties to apply--which means that STR 10 is wise, because hampering your mobility in combat makes you a sad panda.

Really, though, I'd have made my STR 12, at least, because it is still your primary damage modifier. Not like it matters--you can still do good by what you've got--but that extra +1 to damage can add up at times.

Another thing I read is that some people say two weapon fighting is a bad idea for a melee rogue because it's so situational, and is a waste of feats. Thoughts?

It's situationally good, only because you're a melee rogue, but you do encounter the problem of "I need to reposition" vs. "I need to make a full attack action to use both weapons" a lot. Also, you need to have a flanking buddy, which, depending on your party makeup (what is your party makeup?) might be difficult. Between you and me, I'd rather take Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, because then if you have a full-round action to spend, you can bluff as a move action, deny your foe their dexterity bonus to AC, and then make an attack at your full attack bonus (no penalties) for a better odds at damage... However, this trick also works much better outside of core, if you have a way to make feinting a move action (which becomes a swift action with Improved Feint), such as the Beguiler's surprise casting ability, as you can then feint and make a full attack action. (Six levels of beguiler, however, is quite the investment.)

Two-Weapon Fighting can have a bigger payoff (because you're getting extra attacks, and therefore the possibility of extra Sneak Attack dice), but each of your attacks takes a minor to-hit penalty (which seems less minor with every near miss), and you need a flanking buddy to pull it off. Improved Feint has less of a payoff and requires a successful Bluff check, but can be done without a flanking buddy, and incurs no to-hit penalties.

The real winner, though? In core? Probably taking two levels of Fighter for the two extra feats (which you'll use to get Combat Expertise and Improved Trip). You lose a die of Sneak Attack, but get two reliable methods of pulling it off, which you can use interchangeably.

Basically, since i'm not the most experienced player in the world, and am fairly new to playing a rogue (in D&D, at least), I don't want to let the party down by not being properly equipped or built and dying as a result.

Any ideas are appreciated.

Cheers!

A short sword would be a slight improvement at no cost (you can still keep a dagger hidden for when you need to conceal a blade; see the circumstance bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made with daggers). Improved Feint is more reliable, but less of a payoff, than Two-Weapon Fighting, and you really can't be faulted for taking either.

Really, I'd say that your rogue looks just fine; I did more or less the same thing in my first go-around, and my rogue lived a healthy and fulfilling career. :smallsmile:

Sultan

2012-02-27, 08:19 PM

Sultan

2012-02-27, 08:26 PM

@Lonely Tylenol

Thanks for the reply.

I am interested by the combat expertise/feint idea. I will need to look over those in the PHB to see if that fits my playstyle and party more or less than the twf method. I wouldn't have thought of that, so thank you for the idea.

If I was to do 2 levels of fighter, should I incorporate that into the 4th level build, or start taking those as I level in the future? I was already debating going a couple levels into fighter for that purpose, but wasn't sure of when to do so.

EDIT: Party composition will be Monk/Cleric/Bard/Rogue/and possible a Wizard or Sorc. 5 total members.

Thanks!

Voyager_I

2012-02-27, 08:36 PM

I would prioritize Constitution over Strength myself. You're a naturally squishy class planning to spend a lot of time trading full attacks in melee; you will want every scrap of survivability you can get. Strength wouldn't be a bad statistic by any means, but since your hit bonus comes from Dexterity and your damage comes from Sneak Attack, staying alive is probably a higher priority overall.

As for ways of getting sneak attacks; enemies standing on Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm) without ranks in Balance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm) count as flat-footed and may not be able to move at all. This is more helpful for ranged builds, but it's still something you can take advantage of.

Your biggest problem will probably be that Core doesn't give you any good options to get reliable Full Attacks, especially against mobile opponents.

Lonely Tylenol

2012-02-27, 08:52 PM

@Lonely Tylenol

Thanks for the reply.

You're welcome. :smallsmile:

If I was to do 2 levels of fighter, should I incorporate that into the 4th level build, or start taking those as I level in the future? I was already debating going a couple levels into fighter for that purpose, but wasn't sure of when to do so.

No reason why it couldn't wait until you feel it's appropriate. Really, what I would say about it is: if you have one trick, and you find that trick lacking something, and no build space for anything else, take two levels of fighter and shore up that trick's weakness with another (in this case, your main trick is Two-Weapon Fighting, and the other is Improved Feint). It's not a pressing enough issue that you need to make an early investment into getting both; just play around with it and see what suits you.

EDIT: Party composition will be Monk/Cleric/Bard/Rogue/and possible a Wizard or Sorc. 5 total members.

I'm assuming the bard is ranged, and the cleric and monk are melee? (I may be wrong here.) If so, huddle around the cleric, who's your most durable source of flanking bonus (assuming heavy armor, shield and/or heavily defensive core spell set). You and the monk don't want to do anything too reckless.

Sultan

2012-02-27, 08:58 PM

So out of curiosity, if I chose not to go the 2 levels of fighter route and chose to stay Rogue, how would I choose my feats if I did decide to use Combat Expertise/Improved Feint, since I have 3 feats to choose at lvl 4?

Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative?
Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Weapon Finesse?
Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Two-Weapon Fighting?

I assume Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Weapon finesse, so that I can still use my dex bonus for attack rolls. Would this also mean just using 1 rapier and no dual wielding?

Lonely Tylenol

2012-02-27, 09:00 PM

So out of curiosity, if I chose not to go the 2 levels of fighter route and chose to stay Rogue, how would I choose my feats if I did decided to use Combat Expertise/Improved Feint, since I have 3 feats to choose at lvl 4?

Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative?
Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Weapon Finesse?
Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Two-Weapon Fighting?

Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Weapon Finesse.

There is no reason to sacrifice a good to-hit bonus (and that's a four-point swing we're talkin', there).

Sultan

2012-02-27, 09:06 PM

I would simply get rid of my off hand if I went with Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Weapon Finesse, correct?..or am I not quite understanding this fully.

Since I no longer would be using TWF, using 2 weapons would cause me to suffer huge penalties, so that's why I'm assuming I would simply use 1 rapier, and that's it.

Lonely Tylenol

2012-02-27, 09:11 PM

Sultan

2012-02-27, 09:22 PM

@Lonely Tylenol

Hmm... I am liking the idea of Combat expertise, Improved Feint, Weapon Finesse the more I think about it.

It seems as though it would probably offer bit more survivability and offer a bit more freedom to me in combat, albeit with a small sacrifice in DPR.

I suppose that instead of having 5 points in bluff, I would want to max it at 7. If I chose Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Weapon finesse, would it also be wise to remove 2 points from WIS and add them to CHA so as to gain a bonus to bluff? Or would that affect listen, spot, and sense motive checks too negatively? Like I said, I have read the blog for the campaign and all the sessions, and so far it does not seem like there is more combat than non-combat/story, but that won't necessarily remain true, so I am not sure if hurting things like sense motive, spot and listen will necessarily be too bad.

Gavinfoxx

2012-02-27, 09:30 PM

With PHB Fighter/Rogue, I like to 2wf with Greatsword and Armor Spikes. Requires lots of strength and dex investment, though... so you need to do well with the point buy or stat rolling.

Particle_Man

2012-02-28, 02:04 AM

@Particle_Man

Oh, I was under the assumption the worn clothing weight had to be accounted for as carried weight. The carried weapons -DO- count for encumbrance purposes though correct?

I don't know that I could afford a mithril chain shirt since I only had 400gp to start with.

The rest pf the party currently is Monk, Bard and Cleric. I will be the rogue, and I believe the GM may be taking another guy who will be playing an arcane caster. So that will make the party Monk/Bard/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard(or Sorc).

Isn't 12 con a bit low? I don't mean to imply that you don't know what you're talking about, after having admitted to being a bit of a noob myself, but being a melee rogue means a much greater chance of dying, and I would think Con would be pretty important.

1) Weapons in hand do count for encumbrance.
2) 400 gp at level 4? Your DM hates you. :smalleek: Ok, if you are starting that poor, no mithril chain shirt. Are you guys going to stay so poor for your entire careers or will you eventually get the proper wealth for your levels? If not, UMD might not be so useful, since when will you guys find magic items to use? Also, you have a cleric and a mage and a bard - probably one of them can use any wand or scroll your party finds.
3) Find out if the cleric is a meelee cleric or summoning cleric or something else. Check if the arcanist is a summoner. Otherwise it is just you and the monk flanking, and that frankly is a recipe for disaster.
4) You are right about the con. Probably it is better to leave con high and kill a skill and replace it with disable device. I nominate use rope. No one ever uses it.

By the way, are you married to the extra feat/skill of human? Because dwarves get con and darkvision 60', which is great for rogues (you can still sneak attack enemies in the dark, and humans can't), and a host of other goodies. You lose some cha (no biggie, the cha skills rapidly outstrip the cha modifier as you level up) and your movement rate drops (but you are going twf anyhow so you will likely be standing and delivering a lot - besides, the bard will be better at the "face" stuff than you, so you could drop diplomacy (keep bluff if you go the feinting route). And with a cleric in the party likely you will all be slowed down anyhow by the cleric's armour.

If you really need that 30' movement rate and like darkvision, you could go half-orc, but then you lose int too, so another skill bites the dust.

Seharvepernfan

2012-02-28, 05:09 AM

Rapier + dagger can be good because you can throw the dagger as your off-hand attack should you ever want or need to. Don't forget that you can use a hand crossbow (or light or heavy if you don't mind a penalty) in one hand as part of two weapon fighting.

I second having disable device. Looking at your party, I'd suggest dropping diplomacy to get it.

Feinting is a good thing to have, but if I had to pick between it and what you have, I'd stay with what you have. At higher levels, having all those attacks is a great thing.

Don't forget to grab a couple of acids and alchemist fires. You can sneak attack with them as well, and all the damage will be considered acid/fire damage (which is great against trolls and the like). As you get more gold, snag a wand or two with a ranged touch spell for damage (like scorching ray). That's a great source of damage during a standard action, with no range penalties (still have to be within 30ft. for sneak attack though). A wand of acid splash is the cheapest of that kind that you can get.

Your scores are fine. Get a hewards handy haversack or bag of holding as early as you can, and stick to a mithril shirt later on. Try to get a listen/spot boosting item.

Seharvepernfan

2012-02-28, 05:15 AM

Rapier + dagger can be good because you can throw the dagger as your off-hand attack should you ever want or need to. Don't forget that you can use a hand crossbow (or light or heavy if you don't mind a penalty) in one hand as part of two weapon fighting.

I second having disable device. Looking at your party, I'd suggest dropping diplomacy to get it. Also, always have one rank of jump, there is a penalty for using it untrained.

Feinting is a good thing to have, but if I had to pick between it and what you have, I'd stay with what you have. At higher levels, having all those attacks is a great thing.

Don't forget to grab a couple of acids and alchemist fires. You can sneak attack with them as well, and all the damage will be considered acid/fire damage (which is great against trolls and the like). As you get more gold, snag a wand or two with a ranged touch spell for damage (like scorching ray). That's a great source of damage during a standard action, with no range penalties (still have to be within 30ft. for sneak attack though). A wand of acid splash is the cheapest of that kind that you can get.

Your scores are fine. Get a hewards handy haversack or bag of holding as early as you can, and stick to a mithril shirt later on. Try to get a listen/spot boosting item.

Sultan

2012-02-28, 08:34 PM

@Particle_Man

Aye, I am fairly certain I want to be human, though I'm still considering dwarf. As dwarf, I think it would be ok, as with a 32 point buy I can still have the exact same ability scores that I have with the human. I'd simply have 7 less skill points, but since i'm starting to think you and Seharvepernfan are right about dropping diplomacy and UMD, it wouldn't seem so bad, since i'd still have 70 points to use at lvl 4.
The only thing that I thing is that if I go dwarf, and remain with my current TWF build, i'd have to lose Improved Initiative, which I guess isn't the end of the world...

But, if it turns out that it's just me and the monk getting into melee range (still waiting to hear back on cleric and arcane caster), i'll probably want to go Combat Expertise/Improved Feint/Weapon Finesse for the added survivability. The only problem is that if I am dwarf for that build, I will have to drop Weapon Finesse which would be no fun for my attack rolls.

As for riches and magic items in the campaign, I'm not sure how it's going to play out. I've read the blog for the campaign and all the session recaps, and i'm seeing rewards in the forms of 200gp sacks here and there, gems here and there... one guy got a razor sharp short sword. It's still early on, so It's just hard to say if we're going to be rolling in riches/magical items or not.

I'd like to be a human and have someone cast darkvision and permanency, or come across Goggles of Night or something, but yeah... Just too hard to say..

Oh the choices to make!

ericgrau

2012-02-28, 09:02 PM

Besides that low level, core melee rogue on a new player is asking for death. You can't survive hits and you hit infrequently yourself so all that sneak attack damage you're banking on isn't that hot. Before this turns into a "help my rogue is dying" thread you might want to consider something else. You could do rapier-and-buckler or archery so you don't die and can actually participate in combat for more than a brief instant. The advantage you have over a fighter or barbarian is your skills, so make sure you scout for the party and find traps rather than charging blindly into encounters. But even then don't engage dangers on your own; coordinate with the party and have the heavy melee walk first into dangerous foes or potential traps after you've done all you can.

Combat expertise doesn't work well on rogues since you already have enough trouble hitting as it is, but you do need it for improved feint. Rapier and masterwork buckler will get more hits yet with higher AC. Because MW bucklers have no armor check penalty there is no penalty for using them without proficiency. While improved feint gets a lot of flack for being useless at high levels, it's awesome at low and mid levels. Since you can't full attack and feint it becomes yet another reason to not TWF and only wield one weapon instead.

So I'd say combat expertise, weapon finesse, improved feint for melee or point blank shot, rapid shot, rapid reload (or be a longbow elf) for range. The range option gives you two round 1 sneak attacks against flat-footed AC at a safe distance against anything who's initiative you beat. That's more SA damage than a fragile TWFer might get the whole fight since he gets a single attack round 1 and in any serious fight he gets knocked to low HP almost immediately afterwards.

I'd rather have 14 str than 14 int, especially at level 4 when you only do 10 damage on a sneak attack. You won't miss your 2 least used skills as much, at least in the short run.

Sultan

2012-02-28, 10:23 PM

Voyager_I

2012-02-28, 11:02 PM

I'd hold onto UMD if you could. It's excellent, and just having it as a class skill is actually a significant boost for the Rogues. Wands and scrolls of utility spells will let you get up to all kinds of shenanigans that wouldn't normally be available to a mundane character, and wands of Cure Light Wounds are always handy.

It will be a few levels before you're reliable with them, but they're still super-handy.

Sultan

2012-02-29, 12:08 AM

So far, if i'm not mistaken then, it seems that in terms of survivability, the builds would go in the following order:

1: Combat Expertise/Improved Feint/Weapon Finesse w/ Rapier/Masterwork Buckler

2: Point Blank Shot/Rapid Shot/Rapid Reload w/a bow

3:Two-Weapon Fighting/Weapon Finesse w/ Rapier/Short-Sword

And in terms of damage, again, if I am not mistaken:

1:Two-Weapon Fighting/Weapon Finesse w/ Rapier/Short-Sword

2: Point Blank Shot/Rapid Shot/Rapid Reload w/a bow

3: Combat Expertise/Improved Feint/Weapon Finesse w/ Rapier/Masterwork Buckler

..Does that seem right? Or am I wrong in thinking Point Blank Shot/Rapid Shot/Rapid Reload w/a bow will do less damage than Two-Weapon Fighting/Weapon Finesse w/ Rapier/Short-Sword ?

My character sheet is still certainly able to be changed, and I'm trying to optimize survavability and the ability to deal damage in battle.

So far, from what I've read, it seems (at least to me) that the Point Blank Shot/Rapid Shot/Rapid Reload will be the best mixture of both with Combat Expertise/Improved Feint/Weapon Finesse coming in second.

I am still seriously considering going Dwarf as well for darkvision, since it seems like darkvision would add survivability and chances at causing damage as well as more utility, but for any build I would have to lose a feat, so I'm not sure that it actually would add any damage.

ericgrau

2012-02-29, 12:52 AM

I don't tend to distinguish much between the two priorities because the TWFer is going to flee before he can do much damage in most serious fights. I'd say:

Damage:
1. MW Buckler rogue w/ feint.*
2. Archery
3. TWF
* Feint falls apart at higher levels.

Survivability
1. Archery
2. MW Buckler
3. TWF

You need some mid to high level tricks like greater invisibility to make TWF safe enough to be viable. And most of those tricks also work with archery. Regardless of the build you'll have worse damage and worse survivability than the party barbarian, but hey that's why you also get skills. Even greater invis TWF/archery won't keep up with him.

The only downside to dwarf on melee is that it's harder to tumble at half speed to set up flanks. But then with feint at least you don't need to tumble as often at low levels. At high levels you'll be more reliant on flanking or magic and feinting will make you lose an attack. But then once you get haste for another attack you also get a big speed boost and problem solved. Boots of speed are a nice way to get haste from a magic item around level 12, unless your DM shafts you on treasure.

EDIT @ V: That's a very fragile looking party overall. Good luck. Looks like the cleric is the main front liner. The two casters might be able to buff out the party and that could help things a bit. The monk could carry potions of mage armor too since neither caster has that.

Sultan

2012-02-29, 12:57 AM

Update on party.
There will only be 4 of us.

So party is Bard, Cleric, Monk, Rogue.

The cleric does frequently get into the melee fray with the monk.

Sultan

2012-02-29, 01:25 AM

So, if I did go with Rapier/Buckler Improved Feint rogue for early levels, could I retrain later when feint starts becoming less useful?

So far I like the idea of Improved Feint/Buckler as well as archery, but want to make sure I don't nerf myself for later.

ericgrau

2012-02-29, 01:30 AM

Ask your DM if he'll allow retraining feint and combat expertise later. It doesn't really get bad until frequent haste though which could be as early as when the bard hits 7th level if he likes to spam haste or level 12+ when you get the boots if not. Or later with a treasure stingy DM. So talk to the bard first. Another option is simply buckler rogue without feint and tumbling for flanks. That's easier with a speed boost such as the one from haste and 2-3 melee allies. So it basically boils down to "when do you get haste?"

Or get a faster race and hope that half speed on a 30' race is enough to flank. Come to think of it with enough melee allies to flank with feint gets less appealing. Remember even before a flank is available in the first round any monster that hasn't acted yet is flat-footed and open to sneak attacks.

Greater invisibility is also on the bard list btw. He can get it as early as 10th level if he wants.

Sultan

2012-02-29, 04:45 PM

Gavinfoxx

2012-02-29, 04:54 PM

Also, what's the story with Rogue Snipers?
Don't they typically just use a crossbow of their choice and shoot from the shadows, then re-hide, shoot, re-hide, basically using sneak attack every time?

Any info on them? Build ideas? Good/bad?

Also, if I went with just a regular Archery rogue build, would a light xbow be ok?
That would use full dex bonus for attack rolls, correct?

Mostly, to be competent at archery as a rogue, you need splatbooks. You will find yourself unfulfilled if you try to do this without... I wouldn't suggest it. I would suggest a two weapon fighting fighter rogue though.. what is your point buy / what stats did you roll?

Sultan

2012-02-29, 04:59 PM

32 point buy.
Starting at lvl 4.

Stats chosen are:

STR 10
DEX 19 (from +1 at lvl 4)
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 10

Originally, I set my rogue up as TWF/Weapon Finesse/Improved Initiative

But am starting to think that, since I am new to rogues, that being in melee enough to make a TWF build useful, I would probably end up dying if I stayed to do damage, or being completely useless if I got off my 1 sneak attack, and then had to flee in fear of dying.

Currently, I have my character sheet built as a MH: Rapier/ OH: Masterwork Buckler Combat Expertise/Improved Feint/Weapon finesse rogue, since it would provide greater survivabilty than TWF, and probably more damage, since I would be able to stay in melee combat longer and not having to immediately flee as if I was a TWF rogue. I'm still able to change the build and any stats, as I haven't joined the campaign yet. I'm basically just still deciding how I want to play the rogue when combat situations come around. I can handle the non-combat stuff.

mikau013

2012-02-29, 05:00 PM

Also, what's the story with Rogue Snipers?
Don't they typically just use a crossbow of their choice and shoot from the shadows, then re-hide, shoot, re-hide, basically using sneak attack every time?

Any info on them? Build ideas? Good/bad?

Also, if I went with just a regular Archery rogue build, would a light xbow be ok?
That would use full dex bonus for attack rolls, correct?

If you want to go ranged rogue, grab quick draw and two-weapon fighting (two-weapon fighting also works for throwing weapons, like daggers or flasks).
At low levels you'll probably switch between 2 daggers in melee and throwing daggers if you win init, and on later levels you can start throwing flasks with a ring of blinking (ranged touch attacks are nice) for sneak attacking.

ericgrau

2012-02-29, 05:35 PM

Ah ya forgot about the flask rogue. It's a cheesy RAW trick b/c all your attacks are touch attacks and splash weapons still count as hitting their vitals. FAQ confirms it's ok. You can use both TWF and rapid shot for 3 touch attacks at low levels. Round 1 you pile on 30 acid or fire damage if they all hit, though even against touch at a -4 penalty it's more likely that half will hit for an average of 15 or so, plus an average of 5 taking effect the following round if you used alchemist fire. As you get into higher levels touch AC gets easier to hit, sneak attack damage goes up, you get ITWF and 6 BAB for 2 more attacks, and you get more tricks like greater invis or ring of blinking to do it after round 1. But if the DM's ok with it and you aren't shortchanged on money to buy all the alchemical flasks, it works really well.

Because it uses both archery and TWF feats you can also transition into it while starting with either style.

The thing with doing this with daggers is that most of your attacks will miss even before we consider the poor range increment. For that you instead get TWF without rapid shot so round 1 you throw two daggers against a foe who hasn't acted yet for sneak attack and round 2 you draw 2 daggers and move closer for the flank. This might do the most damage after you get far shot to lessen range penalties. Then you have melee fragility problems again but at least you did almost as much damage as a bow round 1. It's less because you hit less often at 10' and beyond, or 20' and beyond with far shot. Until you get weapon focus in the distant future you could instead get double javelins round 1 (or javelin + dart if a javelin seems implausible as an off-hand light weapon) and switch to rapier + short sword round 2 for less range penalties and more damage. This style could also transition into a flask thrower.

Any kind of thrower works well with halfling because of the +1 racial bonus to thrown weapons, +1 size bonus, and +1 to hit from their +2 dex.

Sultan

2012-02-29, 06:14 PM

I don't know that I'm really keen on the idea of throwing weapons, as decent as they may be, it's just too far out of my play style and character.

So far I like the ideas of TWF rogue, MW Buckler/Feint Rogue, and Archery rogue.

Currently my char sheet is set up with MW Buckler/Rapier and Combat Expertise/Improved Feint/Weapon Finesse.

Something else I came across that interested me was the idea of Rogue/Ranger

Lvl 1: Rogue getting Iron Will on top of free rogue feats(since my will saves suck)
Lvl 2: 1st lvl Ranger getting 1st Favored enemy (which would help against undead), Track, Wild empathy for free. Also, It would give me a higher BAB than going lvl 2 rogue, as well as decent saves.
Lvl 3: 2nd lvl Ranger getting Combat Style (TWF) for free and using Lvl 3 Feat gain to get Weapon Finesse

So far that's what I've got for that idea. 4th lvl would probably be lvl 1 fighter for the bonus feat... probably spent on Improved Initiative or weapon focus: short sword or rapier. Bad idea? I just figured that build could essentially give me TWF/Weapon Finesse/Improved Initiative with a higher BAB and some other perks and probably a bit more survivability than a straight rogue TWF melee build. I'm still not sold on that idea, but figured i'd try to get thoughts on it.

ericgrau

2012-02-29, 07:05 PM

You're basically gaining more combat ability and HP at the cost of skills. But rogue loses BAB at level 1 and 5 so you're not really gaining much offensively until level 5, just HP. You also might want to put the first level in ranger for 2 more HP on average. You lose 12 skill points but you still have a lot of skill points. Outside of combat you're both tracker and trapfinder, so in some sense your utility goes up rather than down.

One thing about multiclassing and skills: For max ranks ranger 2 / rogue 2 is the same as ranger 4 or rogue 4. For skill points per rank you use whichever class you leveled up in. So it's often good to wait for ranger levels to up ranger skills and same for rogue levels.

Iron will is only a +2. It might be worth something if you're making a will save every other round. Or if it actually had a high enough bonus to save your bacon on that rare will save, but it doesn't. It's an infrequently used minor bonus. Unless you're going up against the army of dominators it's not worth it.

Sultan

2012-02-29, 08:26 PM

Interesting.

Ok, so a couple other things I'm curious about, being fairly new still.

I guess i'm still a bit unsure of just exactly how the builds would work.
For a TWF melee build, would entering combat typically look like this, when possible?:

1: No Party members are noticed by hostiles yet. Not in combat yet, I hide and move silently into sneak attack position.
2: I am in sneak attack range, still unnoticed and still not in combat because neither my party or myself have been noticed, and none have taken any actions yet.
3: I sneak attack with both weapons, causing combat to start and initiative rolls begin.

Is that how entering combat in this manner would work? Would initiative have to be rolled before I could even move into position, or am I correct in my thinking?
Naturally, if the rest of my party was noticed by the enemy, initiative would be rolled as they would be preparing to attack us, but if I remained hidden from the enemy, would I not be a valid target until I was noticed in some way? I know that I would still have to roll initiative, even if I wasn't yet noticed.

After the first sneak attack on an unsuspecting enemy, would I be able to 5 foot step out of the square adjacent to the enemy without provoking an AoO? Would I want to remain there for 1st in-combat turn, hoping I beat the enemies initiative, or would I want to get right out of there asap?
I know a 5 foot step out of a threatened square would normally provoke an AoO, such as if I was standing there fighting an enemy already aware of me, but on that first baddie who is oblivious, would Sneak Attack (full round action) + 5 foot step out of it's range provoke AoO?

I guess i'm trying to understand the options and exactly what I could/could not do.

Sorry if my questions seem naive and/or uninformed. I've read PHB and whatnot but still have questions. I've played a lot of 3.5, but with only 1 dm, and he customized a lot of things and had house rules, and we never actually used a board to exercise actual combat mechanics. I wish that we had.

Particle_Man

2012-02-29, 09:33 PM

I don't think you will be able to be perfectly positioned with hide/sneak attack to open up with meelee twf in round one. Also, often the first round is a "surprise round" which means standard action only which means only one weapon attack anyhow.

I think a better strategy is to hang back, let the monk tumble to the other side, get up there, flank, hope the cleric gets there soon, keep flanking, get out when hurt, etc.

or even everyone hang back and let the monsters come to you while the cleric buffs or summons, then you guys can flank, get twf, etc., while the monster gets only one attack.

Curmudgeon

2012-02-29, 10:24 PM

Besides that low level, core melee rogue on a new player is asking for death.
This, in a nutshell, is the problem. Your intent is attainable only with consistent luck, because you're crippled by lack of access to necessary resources.

Mostly, to be competent at archery almost anything as a rogue, you need splatbooks.
I fixed that for you. :smallwink:

I like Rogues immensely, but only when there are ways to address the many weaknesses inherent in the base class. These oversights were only noticed and addressed years after the core books were written.

If you're serious about engaging in melee with a PH-only Rogue, I recommend a smarter, less direct approach: forget dealing damage except situationally, and focus on other ways of being useful. An emphasis on Spot, Sleight of Hand, Bluff, Tumble, and Hide might let you move around and confound enemy spellcasters while in combat. You'll really want some help from your party Cleric to cast Deeper Darkness on a dagger tip. When you draw that dagger you'll have concealment wherever you go. A Bluff check will then let anywhere be a hiding place. So Spot an enemy with magical gear, Tumble up to them, then use Bluff to create a distraction and Hide. (You're already at your hiding place because of the portable concealment, but they don't know that.) When you're right next to the enemy but hidden you can filch holy symbols, wands, spell component pouches, and other gear from them using Sleight of Hand. When you're done, Tumble away and Hide once more with all their stuff secreted on your person.

Alternatively, you can get Silence cast on a bit of lint; then your job is to Tumble up to the spellcaster and use Sleight of Hand to hide it somewhere on their person. Lack of access to all spells with verbal components should handicap them long enough for your party to prove victorious.

Sultan

2012-02-29, 10:29 PM

I'm still confused on 5-foot steps too.

The PHB makes it confusing to understand. On pg. 144 it says "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity."

At the top of pg. 145 it shows a picture of "Mialee" taking a 5-foot step out of a Hobgoblins' threatened square and doesn't say she has provoked an AoO.

On the table on pg 141 it shows under the "No Action" part the 5-foot step move, and says it doesn't provoke an AoO, but it has a little "1" next to it, and when reading the text pertaining to that little "1" it says:

"Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity."

So.. I'm not quite sure on how to take that. Page 141 says that regardless of the action, moving out of a threatened square USUALLY provokes an AoO.

Then later it says "...Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." and shows a picture of "Mialee" doing a 5 foot step out of a threatened square without provoking an AoO.

I guess i'm hung up on this because i'm trying to think of ways to play the different rogue builds people have been suggesting and 5-foot steps are involved in some ideas I have.

Like with a TWF build. Using both weapons requires a full-round action, but Full-Round actions state that you can use a 5-foot step in that same round if no other actions taken that same round involved moving any distance.

To me, that says that a potential strategy could be:

Use Dual Weapon Sneak Attack (or even just attack with both weapons, both full round actions) then 5-foot step out of attack range of opponent, thus meaning that opponent would have to move into range of me to hit me.

In the case where I used my dual weapon attack on my opponent who has not yet acted in the turn, I could 5-foot step towards allies, then for the opponent to attack me, he would have to possibly move into threatened squares of my allies (as well as my own) to hit me.

Maybe i'm not thinking about this correctly, and then, these ideas are without clarification on 5-foot step rules.
If it -DOES- provoke an AoO for stepping out of a threatened square, then it pretty much makes my ideas useless.

Sultan

2012-02-29, 10:38 PM

@Curmudgeon

I really like your combat utility ideas like the stealing/silenced piece of lint ideas. Especially that deeper darkness on the weapon idea. Regular darkness doesn't allow objects to the the target of the spell, correct?

Seems like I will need to wait for cleric to hit lvl 5 before most of that utility can be used, but I definitely like those ideas. That's sort of been a big push actually in my decision making.

EDIT: Would I need to be a race other than human for this to work, due to no darkvision? Ideally i'd like to remain a human. We don't have any arcane casters in the party, so no spells for darkvision. :/

EDIT2: Just realized normal darkness can be cast on an object. I wasn't reading proper description.

EDIT3: Also how would darkness/deeper darkness affect me if I chose to attack? Since I would be in the darkness, as well as my opponent, we would both have a 20% miss chance due to concealment. Would I just not draw the weapon with darkness on it if I wanted to attack?

Voyager_I

2012-02-29, 10:45 PM

You are correct, but I wouldn't rely on using 5-foot steps as a means of self defense. If you 5-foot step away after a full attack, the enemy can just 5-foot step to follow you.

Another key thing to keep in mind is that entering threatened squares doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity; only leaving them does. That means an enemy can approach you safely, even if you have allies around trying to cover you.

Sultan

2012-02-29, 10:53 PM

@Voyager_I

ah yes, you are correct, but it is still some mobility, and could mean the difference between having 1 enemy within melee attack range or 2 or 3, depending on how everything is positioned.

I was just unsure if 5-foot step provoked an AoO when leaving a threatened square or not.

ericgrau

2012-03-01, 12:05 AM

Here's how sneaking up to foes works. First, hopefully your allies are still close enough to rush into the room when things go horribly wrong. But if you're not noticed, you get a surprise round. In the surprise round you're limited to a standard action. But since you need something to hide behind to hide you might not be right next to your foes. The best use of this action for melee is to charge at half speed. You may charge at half speed as a standard action whenever you are unable to take full round actions. This is a sneak attack. If you beat that guy's initiative you get another full attack of sneak attacks because he still hasn't acted yet. Range is similar except it's easier to get to your targets. Only you and anyone who sees you acts in the surprise round, and even then you might beat their initiative and sneak attack them. If you can pull this off consistently that makes archery more appealing since that's about the only time archery gets sneak attacks at low levels. Though the bard can cast grease too and you can sneak attack anyone balancing on the grease.

Unlike most other movement 5 foots don't provoke. They're more useful for keeping your flanking going. You can't usually get away because foes can just 5 foot after you.

Given your party makeup I might do buckler rogue simply because 2 of your 3 allies are as fragile as you are and probably can't take hits in your place.

Ranger or barbarian levels for more HP are helpful. Maybe even triple class equally (so no multiclass penalties), medium armor, strength before dex, and no weapon finesse. Or half-orc ranger/rogue with barbarian dip for rage, armor and uncanny dodge (that way no multiclass penalties from barbarian dip). You'd be way better in melee combat and you'd still average 6+int skill points per level. Every 2nd or 3rd level you could grab whatever skill you wanted without cross-class penalties so you could still handle the skillmonkey stuff without ever being more than 1 rank behind. You'd get improved uncanny dodge really early making it impossible for foes to flank you. You could both trap find and track. You would lose evasion at first but later when your dex is higher from a magic item and you can afford mithril breastplate you'll get evasion back.

Curmudgeon

2012-03-01, 12:35 AM

@Curmudgeon

I really like your combat utility ideas like the stealing/silenced piece of lint ideas. Especially that deeper darkness on the weapon idea. ...
EDIT2: Just realized normal darkness can be cast on an object.
The significant differences are duration (1 day/level vs. 10 minutes/level) and radius (60' vs. 20'). The regular Darkness spell is really only suited to combat if you can cast it yourself.

EDIT3: Also how would darkness/deeper darkness affect me if I chose to attack?
You can attack the same as everybody else; you'll suffer the usual 20% miss chance. However, as a Rogue you don't want to attack the same as everybody else. You really want to also enable sneak attack, and concealment prevents that. So you're forced to choose between stealth and its defensive benefits, and offensive effectiveness.

Sultan

2012-03-01, 12:53 AM

@ericgrau

Ahh, thanks for the sneaking up info. I was a little confused on that.

I do think i'm going to try to stick with MW Buckler/Rapier rogue at this point since it appears that I need to be very selective when I do damage.
Curmudgeon has given me some other ideas on how to be useful that I think would work well with that build, though I'm still confused on how the darkness on a weapon idea would work with being a race that doesn't have darkvision, or any arcane casters able to cast darkvision.

I do like the idea of more HP, and 2 ranger levels do give me 4 more max hp than 4 lvls of rogue, as well as +2 more on reflex save and +2 more on fort save. No will save at all, but compared to a +1 will save that's not the end of the world.

I just don't know how I feel about prioritizing strength over dex, since I still want have a ludicrous dex bonus to fulfill a lot of rogue-ish dex based stuff like things that Curmudgeon mentioned. Planting pieces of lint that have silence on them onto enemy casters, stealing from guys who seem to have magical stuff, etc. Maybe I just don't quite fully understand the Rogue/Ranger/Barb combo. I'd have to be lvl 6 to equally cross class all 3. Would I just start with 2 rogue/2 ranger and then add the 2 barb in the next 2 levels? If I did choose that cross classing idea, I'd simply go TWF then if i'm not mistaken, since rangers get that for free at 2nd level?

Sorry for being so noob, lol.

Sultan

2012-03-01, 12:58 AM

@Curmudgeon

That's true on the radius and length, but combat won't last 40 minutes...I would hope. But yeah, naturally it would be more beneficial to have 4 days of darkness than just 40 minutes. You've cleared up the attacking part for me, thank you. But.. how does a race with no darkvision, or any casters with darkvision, use darkness, or even better, deeper darkness, to effectively see what he's doing to the target he is next to? Ie. planting items on them or stealing something from them? I REALLY like that idea, and want to use it, but I just want to understand it a bit better.

Sultan

2012-03-01, 01:34 AM

Also, out of curiosity, is a spiked chain useful with combat reflexes and improved trip? Wouldn't that mean any enemy that doesn't have reach, or ranged, that gets close to you in order to attack would provoke an AoO, and also have a chance that you trip them during that AoO, which would also mean an immediate follow up attack on an enemy with -4 AC penalty to them for being prone? And then when they try to get up from the trip, provoke another AoO, and another chance to trip them, and get another chance at an immediate follow up attack on them?

Useful? Terrible?

ericgrau

2012-03-01, 01:42 AM

Ah ya forgot about dex skills. Either melee or archery ranger is an option. Rangers are less fragile than rogues but still only have a d8 HD; for some reason I was thinking d10. You get more BAB but less sneak attack too. You could always leave it at a dip and then dip fighter.

Sultan

2012-03-01, 02:06 AM

@ericgrau

Yeah I just don't see any good way to cross class and maintain Sneak Attack 2d6 with a level 4 character unless it's like... 3 Rogue/1 Fighter.

I'm liking the idea of being the "wrench in the works" type of rogue though from your suggestion of MW Buckler/Rapier rogue and Curmudgeons combat utility ideas, opposed to the doing as much damage as possible type of rogue.

Doing damage here and there where it suits him while maintaining utility (stealing and fouling up casters) seems like a chaotic neutral rogues style anyway.
Sorta why I became curious about the Combat Expertise/Improved Trip/Combat Reflexes + Spiked Chain idea of constant AoO's on approaching enemies, and enemies trying to get up from prone. Not sure if that would require a ton of str though.

ericgrau

2012-03-01, 02:10 AM

A spiked chain tripper is an old build, typically done with a str based full BAB class though anyone strength based could do it really.

Trips are strength checks so it's hard to do it on a dex based rogue. It would be funny to spiked chain feint sneak attack and also trip.

Fighter would give more feats than ranger and you wouldn't be forced to pick between archery and TWF. A rogue 3/fighter 1 would get 3 feats without being human. Maybe halfling to essentially get +2 to attack rolls and +2 to AC from size and dex, on top of other nice racial bonuses including a +4 size bonus to hide and a +2 to move silently. It's not original but it works. From there you could do more rogue or more dipping.

Sultan

2012-03-01, 02:23 AM

@ericgrau

That sounds ridiculous, lol.
Something to try another time, I suppose.... well... I want to go STR build now, just for that... but realistically, it's just not a good idea for the campaign, since they want a rogue, and i'll need dex to do roguey type stuff :P

I guess since i've settled on being more utility/wrench in the works style rogue with buckler/rapier..

Any tips, tricks, etc?
Marbles, good or bad? Do those foul up my own teammates, and myself, in an attempt to make an opponent lose dex bonus to ac?

...Flasks of oil + Cloth + Fire for cheap molotov cocktails? Flaming incoming enemies good or bad? lol..

Cheap ways to blind people in order to make them lose Dex Bonus to AC, like sand in pockets to throw into eyes, chalk to crush up to throw into eyes, etc? Good, bad? Chance of that backfiring and getting me killed?

Sew a bead or something into palm of glove, have caster use darkness/deeper darkness on the bead, that way its easy and fast to create darkness?

Caltrops?

Curmudgeon

2012-03-01, 07:57 AM

@Curmudgeon

But.. how does a race with no darkvision, or any casters with darkvision, use darkness, or even better, deeper darkness, to effectively see what he's doing to the target he is next to?
From VISION AND LIGHT, starting on page 164 of Player's Handbook:
Characters need a way to see in the dark, dangerous places where they often find adventures. Dwarves and half-orcs have darkvision, but everyone else needs light to see by.
...
In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.
...
A candle does not provide bright illumination, only shadowy illumination.

This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. From page 152:
Concealment Miss Chance: Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment.The Darkness and Deeper Darkness spells both have misleading names. Darkness creates shadowy light when cast in an area of total darkness. And the effect of Deeper Darkness is not any darker than that of Darkness.

So, within the radius of these magical Darkness effects, you can see, but dimly. Seeing dimly means the shadowy illumination (equivalent to candlelight) is going to make you miss your intended target 20% of the time.

Rejusu

2012-03-01, 09:39 AM

You really should go 17 Dex with the points buy improved to 18 with your level 4 increase. With points buy it's generally not a great idea to invest too heavily in one stat unless you're playing an incredibly SAD class, which the rogue unfortunately isn't.

Going for the 18->19->20 may seem better in the long run but it comes at a heavy cost in the short term. The points you'd save by going from an 18 to a 17 is enough to raise one of your other scores by one modifer step. A 19 isn't going to do anything for you that an 18 doesn't until you hit level 8. In the mean time though you could have +1 to one of your other scores.

Also 400GP? Talk to your DM about that. Level 2 PC's have over twice that. At level 4 your wealth should be something like 6,000GP. Check he hasn't made a mistake. If he hasn't then he's intentionally trying to make you weaker than you should be. 400GP is barely more than a 1st level PC gets. If he's just guessing how much he thinks you should have though point him to the wealth-by-level chart in the DMG.

ericgrau

2012-03-01, 11:08 AM

...Flasks of oil + Cloth + Fire for cheap molotov cocktails? Flaming incoming enemies good or bad? lol..
...
Caltrops?
There are actually molotov rules in the oil section of the PHB. Quite weak, but good at low levels when fighting swarms or trolls that won't die to weapons. Alchemist's fire is stronger but at 20 gp it's 200 times more expensive :smalltongue:. Likewise caltrops will rarely get used but it's not bad to have a couple bags to dump in front of doors leading to side passages in case you're pursued. A knotted rope (see normal rope description) with grappling hook and pitons are more likely to be useful for climbing. Or wedging pitons into doors to jam them. All these things are heavy though.

I agree not focusing everything on dex, especially in point buy. A 12 strength or 12 wis is very cheap for what you get. Or even 12 cha to make UMD viable 1 level sooner: i.e., the level when you stop failing by 10 and blowing up the item.

The bard spells grease and glitterdust both deny dex bonus to AC. Between those, haste, greater invisibility, and others you may want to make friends with that player.

Sultan

2012-03-01, 04:54 PM

Ok. I've adjusted ability scores a bit in order to gain a +1 on CHA stuff and 1 more point in STR for a few more lbs of carry weight.

STR 11
DEX 18 (+1 from lvl 4)
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 12

And yeah, its 400gp to start. Even though that's not much, I guess it's just the ol' rule zero coming into play. I found out cross-classing isn't allowed also, at least, not at this time.
PrC's from DMG may be allowed down the road he said, if they work with the setting.
He says he doesn't hold any punches, but tries to keep it balanced, so I assume that means balanced for PC's with low riches/magic items for our level.

Particle_Man

2012-03-01, 05:22 PM

PrC's from DMG may be allowed down the road he said, if they work with the setting.

Well the thing about that is you should check, now, to see if any prestige classes are to your liking (and are allowed in the setting), so that you can work at meeting the prerequisites. Arcane Trickster is presumably out if there is no multi-classing between the non-prestige classes. Assassin is a posibility. Or Horizon Walker for kinda rangery stuff.

Sultan

2012-03-01, 06:33 PM

Yeah, ultimately a solid "yes, I will be allowing PrC's" would be nice, but so far his exact words are "I'm considering PRC later. I'll likely approve a few PRCs that are appropriate for the campaign setting."

I'm eying Shadowdancer currently, and don't think it will be hard to meet the prereq's for that if it's approved. I like a lot of the class abilities they get, and feel they would lend well to my play style.

ericgrau

2012-03-01, 07:01 PM

The thing with shadowdancer is that it's often considered a 1 level dip for rogues because it doesn't advance sneak attack. If you can surive the -20 penalty to hide (try shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#shadow) armor) after your first attacks or spend a round going to a new hiding place you can sneak attack again and again.

The key to actually taking shadowdancer past level 1 is to use its scouting ability and summoned shadow. You yourself become a great scout and so is the shadow. The shadow is also good at dealing strength damage while being immune to attacks from most foes. Once the shadow gets enough HD consider giving it spring attack similar to a greater shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm#greaterShadow) so that high level foes that can hit it won't reach it inside a wall without a readied action. Or perhaps find some way to haste it instead for double strength damage. You might want to take rogue all the way to 10 so you can get crippling strike to add even more strength damage.

Sultan

2012-03-01, 07:18 PM

Hmm, that is true. I hadn't considered no increases in sneak attack.
Assassin is looking pretty nice too. Though my character is Chaotic Neutral currently, and thus, ineligible to be an assassin currently, his back story essentially started him at true neutral. His ideals have gone downhill since his arrivial in the new and unfamiliar world he is in currently, and I have been planning to gradually have him decline to Lawful, or I suppose Neutral Evil.

Particle_Man

2012-03-01, 10:59 PM

Mind you, that 3 round waiting period can be a pain, and the fact that most of your enemies will have huge fort saves will be an even bigger pain. Is there a link to the iron chef thread that optimized assassin death attack dc?

ericgrau

2012-03-02, 12:58 PM

You never wait 3 rounds for anything in combat. That 3 rounds is while scouting out of combat then you open the fight with death attack then your allies charge in.

Even without death attack assassin advances sneak attack. That's the main thing. Everything else is minor gravy until hide in plain sight at 8. Even the spells are low level and so could be done with UMD scrolls or wands, or potions. Even with assassin levels consider getting scrolls on top of your spells, without needing a UMD check. For poison see if you can find drow knockout poison. Other poisons require party coordination to hit, run and wait 1 minute. Not likely. Poisons are awesome even at low save DC because they don't require an extra action. The knockout effect is devastating the few times it works and you don't lose any actions when it doesn't work. Don't give up on poisons until foes auto-pass saves at level 10.

Likewise even a failed death attack is a sneak attack. You could stack poison and death attack and sneak attack to increase your chances of incapacitating a foe. Worst case scenario you still sneak attack.

Sultan

2012-03-02, 07:06 PM

Excellent. Well, all of the ideas/advice posted here have certainly helped me decide how to use this character.

I guess i'll just have to come to grips with the fact that a PHB only rogue isn't going to be the bees knees in terms of combat usefulness. I'm ok with that. Being useful as a utility / foul people up style rogue sounds just as fun to me.

Guess all that's left is to wait to join the campaign and start playing. Of course, any more little tips/tricks, etc are welcomed.

Cheers

Arros Winhadren

2012-03-02, 09:51 PM

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned already, but a bag of tricks is a great way to get flanking and by extension Sneak Attack. As long as someone in your party has a few ranks in Handle Animal you can just order the summoned critter to flank with you. Handy AND cheap!

GnomeGninjas

2012-03-02, 10:20 PM

Sultan

2012-03-02, 10:38 PM

Doh. :(

Here's hoping for rings of blinking and bags of tricks to drop. :smallbiggrin:

Sultan

2012-03-02, 11:40 PM

Out of curiosity, for a MW Buckler/Rapier Combat Expertise/Improved Feint rogue, would getting Spring Attack be useful down the road, or is that more for TWF rogues?

Essentially, what are good things to do in the future on this rogue character?
I'm hoping I will be allowed to re-train feats down the road when Improved Feint starts to become a waste of a feat.

Particle_Man

2012-03-03, 12:44 AM

Well if you spring attack you can't attack with both weapons. You only get the single attack. So likely not worth the 3 feat investment. And if you are going the feint route then it doesn't seem compatible with spring attack either.

Btw, if you are going the feint route instead of twf, there is skill focus bluff to improve it by 3 and another feat that improves bluff and something else by 2. And some skill synergies. And possibly some magic items but with your dm who knows.

Sultan

2012-03-03, 12:59 AM

Ahh yes. That's true about spring attack. Not good for TWF because only allows 1 weapon to attack, and not good for Feint... because well... yeah.. I'd want to be feinting and getting the sneak attack bonus on my 1 attack. And yeah. Persuasive feat improves bluff and intimidate by 2. Then skill focus feat, like you said. That's a pretty big boost to bluff, and thus, a pretty big boost to feint.

I'm just worried that if I can't re-train feats down the road, i'll end up being useless as an improved feint build.

Curmudgeon

2012-03-03, 03:53 AM

The only reason you'd get Spring Attack as a Rogue is because you'd already bought the prerequisites for that feat on the way to enter Shadowdancer, and getting both Hide in Plain Sight and Spring Attack barely makes the total investment worthwhile.

If an enemy has a weak Spot skill you'll move up to them (and Hide on the way), and Hide again while attacking. You'll hope to succeed and stay hidden after the attack even with a -20 penalty because the foe isn't very perceptive. This is ideal: stand right next to your foe, make full attacks, and Hide with every swing. Of course, that's only good versus unperceptive enemies.

If an enemy has a strong Spot skill you'll use Spring Attack: move up to them (and Hide on the way), attack once, then move away (and Hide again). You'll take at most a -5 penalty for moving more than half speed. You'll hope you remain hidden because the enemy has a -5 Spot penalty from the distractions of combat, and a further -1 for every 10' of distance you moved away.

kme

2012-03-03, 10:27 AM

Your DM said that only about half of the challenges will be combat related? This combined with that fact that you have both monk and the bard in the party AND start with so little gold probably means that encounters will be rather easy, and mostly against humanoid opponents. With that in mind here are some suggestions.

While improved feint is nice at lower levels where you have only 1-2 attacks, later on the trade off may not be worth it in many situations. It is also less effective against non humanoid opponents (but I assume most will be humanoid anyway). And combat expertise, while it can be useful sometimes when you want to be extra safe, you will have 5 ranks in tumble. That makes your fighting defensively pretty close to expertise (-4 +3).

Someone already mentioned TWF and quick draw, and I second that. Quick draw gives you flexibility in what you have to carry, and is useful for all those other items you may need (smoke stick, caltrops, tanglefoot bags etc.). You can carry a rapier, shortsword, daggers and a buckler/light shield (buckler doesn't need to be dropped for freeing the hand but gives -1 to hit).

You walk around empty handed usually. In a surprise round and first round you quick draw and throw daggers for ranged SAs, then draw your rapier and shield. If you get in a situation where you flank, drop the shield and draw a shortsword for TWF SAs.

Another thing you may want to consider now (despite what feats you take) is lowering that new 12 charisma to 10 and lowering dex to 16, then put those points to str to make it 15 and with +1 from leveling 16. You lose + 1 to hit and ac and dex skills, but you get more carrying capacity, +3 to damage (almost like 1d6) and most importantly you don't have to pick weapon finesse. You can now get improved initiative or be a dwarf. Or be an elf and use a longsword and composite longbow, get nice things and +2 dex back but at the cost of tasty tasty CON :smalltongue:.
This improved STR would also allow you to use a quarterstaff. Quarterstaff is flexible, it can be used as one handed, two handed, as a double weapon and may look like a harmless walking stick :smallamused:. You can pick combat expertise and improved disarm (effective with two handed and more strength). The biggest problem of disarm is that it doesn't work on enemies that don't have weapons, but it is otherwise a pretty strong option. If you are human you can take I.Feint too, or get TWF and use it when you flank.

Last thing I want to mention are nets. You may not like the style but they are like cheaper reusable tanglefoot bags except you get -4 to hit with them. And that penalty isn't a big deal because you always target the touch AC.

ericgrau

2012-03-03, 04:19 PM

Sultan

2012-03-03, 06:24 PM

@kme

The DM hasn't said about half encounters are combat, it just appears that way through observation (i've been reading all the plot recaps from all the sessions).
So far they have fought kobolds, hobgoblins, a troll, big rats, demon whelps, a demon named Meezil, a demon jester, ethereal maggots, an enormous bird, an enormous bear, a group of 3 Telnarius (elven) casters accompanied by 2 melee Telnarius, undead (assuming zombies) and large cockroaches.

A definite mixture of many things.

I still like curmudgeons ideas of being very utility based, attacking much more selectively than always trying to do damage.

kme

2012-03-03, 09:16 PM

Most of that works, but any time you attack with the buckler hand you not only get a -1 to hit you also lose the buckler AC. Disarming doesn't work as well on medium BAB, but with a decent strength tripping works well because it's not very BAB dependent. I'd also use javelins rather than daggers for the lower range penalty as long as he has the carrying capacity.
I't probably better to use a light shield and avoid that -1. Losing AC is a given, it's an option when you deem that you can afford it. (you are flanking, have full hp, enemies are focusing cleric/bard/monk already)

Concerning disarm, you do suffer a little with medium BAB but since you have a free +8 (two handed and I.Disarm, and it's +12 if they use a light weapon) it's not that problematic.

I agree that daggers are not optimal, but javelins are simply not a rogue style :P. Darts are probably the best option.

@kme

The DM hasn't said about half encounters are combat, it just appears that way through observation (i've been reading all the plot recaps from all the sessions).
So far they have fought kobolds, hobgoblins, a troll, big rats, demon whelps, a demon named Meezil, a demon jester, ethereal maggots, an enormous bird, an enormous bear, a group of 3 Telnarius (elven) casters accompanied by 2 melee Telnarius, undead (assuming zombies) and large cockroaches.

A definite mixture of many things.

I still like curmudgeons ideas of being very utility based, attacking much more selectively than always trying to do damage.
Well, looking at that list, fighting demons with no magic weapons is definitely nasty, as is a troll. If that was a dire bear you should probably be worried. You can probably expect more of those elves, at least they are humanoid.

As for curmudgeons idea, it definitely sounds interesting and fun, but it isn't very dependent on your build aside from skill selection. It's more about your tactical decisions and preparation. Quick draw may help getting those items when you need them. I guess disarming technically falls under that category too, you won't always have opportunity to hide.

Sultan

2012-03-03, 10:37 PM

It's true that a light shield would take advantage of weapon finesse. Adding a shield spike would make an even better weapon, but not much. Could even make the shield masterworks to get rid of the -1 armor check penalty.
The big problem I would think, would be the lack of TWF. To attack with Rapier and shield in those instances where I feel it would be ok, I would take huge penalties for not having twf.

Basically, at least to me, it seems like I really have 2 routes here for how I want to play. (Since i'm not digging on the idea of archery/throwing weapons)... Man.. why do I have such a hard time settling.... I feel like i've decided, and then boom.. I think it over again...

I still don't get why IF becomes useless when haste is available, or at higher levels.

TWF get way more attacks. That's true. Those attacks come at a MUCH higher penalty, and thus, the chance of them hitting is drastically lowered.
With haste, TWF will get to make a full attack, and then 1 standard attack (with the full BAB + any applicable bonuses). So haste essentially gives a TWF build 1 more attack on top of the already large amount that it gets.

Is haste so bad with IF because haste ONLY allows that extra standard attack if the character makes a full-attack, and 1 weapon attacks can't be full-attacks? Am I misunderstanding?

Does IF start to suck later simply because it's generally assumed that, at higher levels, a TWF rogue will have a much larger array of methods to deny his enemy the dex bonus, thus essentially giving a TWF rogue the same end result as an IF rogue, which is denial of dex bonus to an enemy essentially every turn, or every other turn? And since, if a TWF rogue can deny his enemy it's dex bonus as frequently as an IF rogue, it's pretty much better due to the many more attacks?

Lord Ruby34

2012-03-03, 11:32 PM

The problem with Improved feint at higher levels is that you get one attack, at that's it. Your damage output starts to suck. A single hit with a greatsword and power attack starts to deal more damage than you, and the fighter has at least one more that's probably gonna hit.

Sure, you can reliably trigger sneak attack, but so can a TWF rogue if they play right. Get your caster to grease the floor under enemies, or the monk to flank with you. If you can deliver a full attack with two weapons you can blenderize someone.

Assuming 10th level you hit for 1d6+1~+5d6, or and average of 22 or so. The TWF rogue could hit, with haste, for 5d6+5~+25d6, or an average 110, assuming all attacks hit. He smears the enemy all over the wall, or at least make them take notice. You probably just annoy him. Consider a Bebilith, a CR 10 demon, it has 150 hp, you're not even putting a dent in it before it's DR. (This also assumes Improved Two Weapon Fighting on the part of the two weapon fighting rogue.

Feinting ends up pretty painful later on, and the only good fix for it is outside core, and erratad into being useless anyway.

EDIT: All of this assumes no wealth, as this assumes it's gonna be pretty low on that.

EDIT 2: Fixed some typos.

ericgrau

2012-03-03, 11:41 PM

IF still requires a move action so it limits you to 1 attack. When you have a lot of high attack bonus attacks, that's a problem.

Haste and 6 BAB also makes TWF less worth it because the -2 applies to more attacks and because improving from 2 max BAB attacks to 3 max BAB attacks is less special than going from 1 to 2. In this situation, including the penalty to attack rolls, TWF isn't giving you that many more actual hits (vs. full attack with a one handed weapon, not vs. feint), you're down 2 feats and you are left more vulnerable without a buckler.

I'd say any style is valid at level 4 and you should just go with whatever you prefer. Later TWF and feint become less worth it than earlier as shown above while earlier a mere +1 from a non-magical buckler is less worth it than it will be later. Archery or dart throwing is so-so early on (mainly surprise round and round 1) and way better later (every round), but safer for you at all levels. OTOH your allies aren't that much better than you at taking hits so it puts more pressure on them. Any combination of these is also valid, especially using quick draw.

You might spend a bit more focus on scouting tactics and so on since you're better at that than combat and that's supposed to be half the encounters. Also helps you get a surprise round.

Sultan

2012-03-03, 11:45 PM

Ah.
I guess I just have a hard time seeing most/all of the higher level attacks of a TWF rogue hitting, with such massive penalties on the rolls.

Lord Ruby34

2012-03-03, 11:56 PM

Boosting your attack rolls is easy, even in core. Magic weapons will make you more accurate, as will other things. You don't power attack, and the TWF penalties aren't that bad. The first three attacks will only be about two worse than yours (you can invest in a single weapon), and then he gets two attacks that are probably swingers. You may or may not hit with them. And AC doesn't scale properly for humanoids, it generally stays pretty low. A TWF can hit.

Neither of you will be likely to easily take a counter full attack from anything though, that's major problem of rogues.

Sultan

2012-03-04, 12:13 AM

Ah,
so a massive amount of TWF attacks won't necessarily be landing enough hits to really make it much better than a full-round attack with a single weapon, since the single weapon will have a better chance of actually landing the hits.
EDIT: Naturally, in the event that all, or pretty much most of the TWF attacks land, it will clearly do a lot more damage.

So then, it seems archery is probably the best all around if it gets way better later... at least to my inexperienced self. I'd still be able to do all the roguey scouty stuff, stealing and sneaking around, and when I choose to attack, it would be from a distance.
And that would be Point Blank Shot/Rapid Reload/Rapid Shot for the primary feats used at lvl 4 (assuming an xbow is used)?

Since I don't get any strength bonuses on attacks with melee weapons anyway, would it be better to use a Longbow over a xbow since I have no STR penalty to apply to a long bow, and no STR bonus to apply to a composite long bow? That way I wouldn't need weapon finesse, since a Longbow already utilizes my dex bonus and I wouldn't need rapid reload, since I'm not using an xbow.

For a long bow, would it be Point Blank Shot/Rapid Shot/Precise shot?

It seems, again, at least to me, that long bow would be more beneficial than xbow since I could get rid of that -4 with Precise shot instead of wasting a feat on Rapid Reload simply to use xbows proficiently.

Really, thank you all for bearing with my indecisive arse and offering info. I'm mostly indecisive because I keep learning new things and thus, have more things to consider.

Lord Ruby34

2012-03-04, 12:29 AM

Go with the longbow, maybe a 0 strength composite longbow, it has a bit more range that might situationally come in handy.

Anyway, you can't flank with archery, so you'll need to flat foot foes. Get someone to cast Grease and you can sneak attack from range. If that doesn't work you're gonna need a wand. Pump your UMD and save up for it, or just ask the DM if he could include it in a treasure pile. You could also ask the monk to invest in stunning fist.

Sultan

2012-03-04, 12:49 AM

If an attacker is invisible, the defender loses dex bonus to their ac.

Would a sneak attack work from total concealment, and can total concealment be achieved in shadows? It says under total concealment that if a defender has a line of effect to a target, but not a line of sight (such as if the attacker is invisible, or in total darkness, or the defender is blind) then the attacker would be considered to have total concealment. If invisiblity causes a loss of dex bonus to the defender, and invisibility is considered total concealment, then would not being hidden in dark shadows be considered total concealment, and as such, cause a loss of dex bonus to the defender?

EDIT: Oh. Humans aren't proficient with long bows, elves are.
With an Elf, I do get the same ability scores as with the human, but I have the ability to bring str to 12, giving me a +1 str modifier. :O 7 less skill points, which is no biggy. Only problem that makes me sad is only 2 feats. For a ranged rogue, would that be Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot? or Point Blank Shot/Rapid Shot i wonder...

Also, I can't find the answer to this, but what would be the downside to using a Long Bow as a human, since they aren't proficient with the? I can't find that info for some reason. EDIT: Oh nm, it's just a +1 bab with that weapon.

hamiltond465

2012-03-04, 06:01 AM

Would a sneak attack work from total concealment, and can total concealment be achieved in shadows? It says under total concealment that if a defender has a line of effect to a target, but not a line of sight (such as if the attacker is invisible, or in total darkness, or the defender is blind) then the attacker would be considered to have total concealment. If invisiblity causes a loss of dex bonus to the defender, and invisibility is considered total concealment, then would not being hidden in dark shadows be considered total concealment, and as such, cause a loss of dex bonus to the defender?
I think that in order to make a sneak attack from total concealment, you make a hide check at a circumstance bonus. A blinded enemy automatically rolls a 0 on his spot roll vs your hide.
Pg 76 of the PHB: 'Total cover or total concealment usually* obviates the need for a hide check, since nobody can see you'
*: special rules for invisibilty
The question is whether you can actually achieve total concealment with just shadows. Sure no human could see you, but a dwarf probably could.

what would be the downside to using a Long Bow as a human, since they aren't proficient with the?
Using a weapon you're not proficient with gets you a -4 to your attack roll with that weapon. PHB 112

About twf vs single, you are aware that that at higher levels the base attack is 15/10/5 vs 13/13/8/3 right?(or 13/13/8/8/3/3 with the extra feats) It's really not that much harder to pull off the extra hit(s). This is assuming a light weapon in your off hand.

My favorite version of rouge usually doesn't use twf though, I generally go for a shadow dancer.
I usually go halfling rouge 5, fighter 1, shadow dancer until the campaign ends

Fighter 1 for the extra feat and the ability to use an actual shield. slightly higher fort save helps too, since I like to take craft(poison).

feats:dodge, mobility, combat reflexes, after that I pick what kind of rogue I want to be based on the dm.
point blank, precise shot, shot on the run, improved precise shot, rapid reload, quickdraw are options If I feel ranged.
In melee I would grab spring attack, weapon finesse, combat expertise, blind fight
perhaps get skill focus(hide) and stealthy for insane hide checks

notes: normally you cannot sneak attack people if they have any concealment, which kinda shoots down the magic darkness dagger talked about above.
Improved precise shot removes any bonuses a defender might get because of less than total cover, meaning that if you say, blanket the area in 90% darkness or fog or something you can ignore it and still sneak attack people while everyone else is practically blind. it has some fairly serious requirements though.(dex 19, point blank, precise shot, BAB 11 i.e level 15 at the absolute earliest for rogues)

halfling, for being small and for being halflings have +4 and +2 to hide respectively
STR 11 (-2 from halfling)
DEX 20 (+2 from halfing)
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 9
(I think? My games usually roll for stats, so I'm not exactly sure how the point buy system works)
At level 1 I have a total of + 14 to hide, I'd like to see a cr 1 monster beat that. usually spend my attacks with a sling here.
at level 7 I take the first level of shadow dancer and become able to hide in plain sight with my hide check of +21, and thus can approach hidden, attack, and re-hide as I move away with spring attack. Alternatively you can just hang out sniping anywhere you want.
I usually play this as a support character, with the spell pouch theft and etc.
My main means of attack is the abuse of my shadow's strength damaging touch and a strength or con damaging poison on my blade or arrows. Poisons are from the dungeon master's guide pg. 296
A character with 0 str is helpless, and can be killed instantly with a full round action called a coup de grace.
I also love use magic item skill.

Another possibility, which I think is sorta a lost cause based on what you said above about multiclassing, is arcane trickster. it requires 2d6 SA and the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells to enter which means 3 rouge and 5 wizard without shenanigans. Still, gives you the ability to use disable device, open lock and sleight of hand at a range of thirty feet a number of times per day as well as level sneak attack and your wiz caster levels. plus it has both reflex and will as it's saves. arcane trickster is from the dungeon master's guide.

Funny thing about being a magic user with sneak attack: you can put it on almost all your touch attack spells(ranged or melee), thus ignoring the target's armor. Cast grease or something to make them flatfooted and all of a sudden you only have to make a dc 10 attack roll that benefits from your dex that adds sneak attack damage.
get weapon focus(ray) if you want to rub it in~
lots fewer skill points to throw around though, wizards are only 2+int, and tricksters are 4+int

kme

2012-03-04, 07:56 AM

About TWF, what ericgrau said is true, but don't forget that you are not fighting alone. The monk will provide you flanking, bard has songs or buffs like heroism or can cast grease and debuff the enemy AC, haste itself gives +1 to hit. Similarly, cleric has bless, aid, bull strength or can paralyze opponents with hold person etc. Stack couple of these and that penalty suddenly doesn't look so bad.
Now when we touch the subject of your allies, you should probably try to get some info about their builds. This may ease your own choices.

If you go with an elf archer, get that 16 STR and use composite. You probably won't be making SAs aside from the first round (for the next few levels at least) so all extra bonus damage is welcome. Between rapid and precise shot its really hard to tell. The extra sneak attack you get in the first round is equivalent to 2-3 normal attacks you can get later, but the penalty for shooting in melee (and this will occur often) is really steep. I would probably go with rapid and switch to longsword (2 handed for extra damage) when there are no more viable targets and try to get the flank.

Ultimately, if should go without saying that you don't have to choose THE most optimal choice. If you like the style of feinting with buckler and rapier definitely go for it. None of the options you considered are sucky. They are all viable with different advantages in different situations.

Curmudgeon

2012-03-04, 08:23 AM

I think that in order to make a sneak attack from total concealment, you make a hide check at a circumstance bonus. A blinded enemy automatically rolls a 0 on his spot roll vs your hide.
Pg 76 of the PHB: 'Total cover or total concealment usually* obviates the need for a hide check, since nobody can see you'
*: special rules for invisibilty The highlighted sentence isn't what the rules say:
All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. With a high skill modifier, a d20 value of 0 could still result in a superior check value, so "rolls a 0" isn't a guaranteed failure.

The question is whether you can actually achieve total concealment with just shadows. Sure no human could see you, but a dwarf probably could.
No, shadowy illumination is never total concealment. See VISION AND LIGHT starting on page 164 of Player's Handbook. Shadowy illumination is either simple concealment (20% miss chance) or no concealment versus a character with darkvision.

Sneak attack is enabled if the attacker isn't seen by their target (that is, the Rogue being visually undetectable denies the target their DEX bonus to AC), but disabled for the Rogue if the target has concealment. So a Dwarven Rogue in pitch blackness can make a sneak attack against an enemy with normal vision; no Hide check is needed because of their total concealment from the target. But a Rogue with normal vision can't ever make a sneak attack in shadows because the enemy (and everything else) has concealment from the Rogue.

hamiltond465

2012-03-04, 09:09 AM

you are correct about blindness, I should have written that better.

but I'm not sure Sultan is talking about magical darkness here, since that was covered on page 2 of the thread by uh, you.

the question I see is whether being in the dark means total concealment.

this situation is what came to mind:
there is a human standing some 50 feet away from you with a torch. his light cannot illuminate more than 20 feet clearly and 40feet dimly. can he make a spot check to see you while hiding. (ability to sneak attack is not the point here)
to someone with low light vision standing next to the human you would merely be in shadowy light.

perhaps a better way to look at this would be a hooded lantern pointed at a human, with you standing on the opposite side.
you would be in total darkness from the human's point of view, the human would be well lit from your point of view, if you are within 30 feet you can probably sneak attack him. since you're in total concealment, does that mean you automatically make the hide check to become hidden after sniping? can you sneak attack the human again next turn?

I question whether this is total concealment from the human or essentially an epic use of the spot skill on the human's part to see you.
also, darkness created with darkness or deeper darkness effects dark-vision exactly the same as normal vision, according to the spell description.

to answer the question I just realized I didn't answer in my last post;
if you are hidden, no matter how you are hidden, and the target fulfills all other qualifiers for getting sneak attacked (within 30 ft, not concealed from you in any way, not immune, etc) you can sneak attack him.

Curmudgeon

2012-03-04, 10:15 AM

the question I see is whether being in the dark means total concealment.

this situation is what came to mind:
there is a human standing some 50 feet away from you with a torch. his light cannot illuminate more than 20 feet clearly and 40feet dimly. can he make a spot check to see you while hiding. (ability to sneak attack is not the point here)
to someone with low light vision standing next to the human you would merely be in shadowy light.
If you're past the area of shadowy light (in real darkness from the Human's perspective), you do indeed have total concealment from the Human with a torch: he doesn't have line of sight to you, and can only Spot things within sight.

perhaps a better way to look at this would be a hooded lantern pointed at a human, with you standing on the opposite side.
you would be in total darkness from the human's point of view, the human would be well lit from your point of view, if you are within 30 feet you can probably sneak attack him. since you're in total concealment, does that mean you automatically make the hide check to become hidden after sniping? can you sneak attack the human again next turn?
No, you don't automatically succeed on Hide checks; instead you're just not making them. Sniping only applies with ranged attacks when you're trying to Hide, and you don't do that when you already can't be seen. You can sneak attack, without needing a move action to Hide after each shot.

I question whether this is total concealment from the human or essentially an epic use of the spot skill on the human's part to see you.
Epic Spot still doesn't let you see better in the dark. (Pretty weak, right?)

also, darkness created with darkness or deeper darkness effects dark-vision exactly the same as normal vision, according to the spell description.
Yes, creatures with darkvision as well as those with sight have a 20% miss chance if they can't pick a line from their square to the target's square without crossing that magical Darkness. Neither they nor their target need to be in the Darkness for it to cause a 20% miss chance.

ericgrau

2012-03-04, 01:22 PM

When I say "early", "early" lasts for a decent number of levels. The thing with feinting is as a rogue you don't get your second attack until level 8. And you might not have endless haste until level 12+, or your 3rd non-haste attack until level 15. Likewise archery takes a very long time to become superb. Both won't ruin you at the wrong levels (less damage but still some for low level archery, infrequently used feat for high level feint but you have others). That's what I mean when I say every tactic listed is a valid and to pick whatever you prefer. Some are better early on for quite a long time, others better much later.

As for bonuses to attack rolls for TWF, it's a high level problem which means that's a lot of lost BAB to overcome and monster AC already expects some buffs and magic items. It'd take tremendous party coordination and maybe a 3rd caster just to buffzilla the rogue, not to mention those would also help one weapon fighting and a buckler to some extent anyway (and haste helps SWF more than TWF). If I were making melee I'd feint low level or rapier buckler w/o feint high level. Should I get consistent greater invisibility to finally make TWF safe from death, I'd want to go archery instead for more full attacks. I think the TWF rogue is the most popular from theoretical "ooh I'll have 7 shiny attacks" and isn't as hot in practice. I must have seen seventeen TWF "I can't hit anything because I keep dropping and my attack bonus sucks" rogues, and lower optimization like core-only certainly doesn't help that.

Oh ya, now for the thing he's better at and will be doing 50% of the time :smalltongue:: The skill list looks good except for disable device of course. At higher levels you might want to grab a hat of disguise and put some ranks in disguise to have a lot of fun between combats. 5 ranks in bluff gives some synergy to this too. At high levels a wand of invisibility, maybe a wand of silence, and a shadow silent moves mithril shirt are also handy for scouting. Get the 100 gp masterwork thieves' tools when you can or else regular thieves' tools for now.

Sultan

2012-03-04, 05:13 PM

Thanks for the replies guys.

So, if I understand correctly, total concealment CAN be achieved in dark shadows assuming the nearby enemies don't have dark vision or low light vision or something, since they would be in light, and thus visible by me, but I would be in the dark, thus not visible to them, and thus, I would deny them dex bonus to AC and be allowed to sneak attack. It seems this is just another situational method of denying dex, and would be good for ranged rogue. Naturally, other ways of denying dex bonus are good too, I was just curious if hiding in shadows in a way where enemies without darkvision and whatnot would not be able to see me, was possible.

As for attacking if I were to use magical darkness on a dagger tip or something, i'm aware the enemy would have concealment as a result of my dagger, and wouldn't want to be sneak attacking anyway. I'd want to be stealing and whatnot.

So for long bow, pretty much be elf or stick with xbow as a human... That -4 is pretty nasty. If I chose an elf archer, what feats would I start with for level 4? Point Blank Shot/Rapid Shot? or Point Blank Shot/Precise shot? More attacks vs better chance to hit if firing into melee combat.

Also, I don't like the idea of prioritizing STR over DEX, as I want DEX for bonuses on all the crazy rogue stuff I would like to do, though I definitely see why people suggest it with a Composite bow setup. If I go archery, I'll probably get a composite long bow to take advantage of the 12 STR (+1 bonus) I can achieve with elf stats while maintaining DEX 18, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 12

EDIT: Ah, and yeah my skills currently look like this, W/ Bonuses/Synergies:
Balance 11 (5 base)
Bluff 8 (7 base)
Disable Device 6 (4 base)
Hide 11 (7 base)
Listen 6 (7 base)
Move Silently 11 (7 base)
Open Lock 7 (3 base)
Search 9 (7 base)
Sense Motive 1 (2 base)
Sleight of Hand 12 (6 base)
Spot 6 (7 base)
Tumble 11 (7 base)
UMD 8 (7 base)

Thinking of just getting rid of Sense Motive totally and putting those 2 points into disable device. Also thinking about lowering bluff and putting more points into open lock and 1 more into Sleight of Hand.

mikau013

2012-03-05, 12:32 PM

Thanks for the replies guys.

So, if I understand correctly, total concealment CAN be achieved in dark shadows assuming the nearby enemies don't have dark vision or low light vision or something, since they would be in light, and thus visible by me, (...)

Technically no.

In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded.

You are in the darkness thus can't see them, no matter how badly they sparkle in the moonlight (or other light).

Though this is kind of silly RAW and not likely to be actually used in play.

- Edit: Oh apparently the rules compendium also changed this. Never mind me then :smallredface:

ericgrau

2012-03-05, 01:09 PM

In shadowy illumination (e.g., 20'-40' from a torch, or 40'-80' if the foe has low light vision) you have concealment and may make a hide check against foes who don't have darkvision. Once you attack you've blown your hide though; that's best to do in the surprise round so you might win initiative and get more sneak attacks. In total darkness they can't see you regardless and you don't even need to make a hide check. Be warned that most monsters have darkvision; better hope you fight humanoids without green skin.

The other way to hide is to use cover, i.e. solid objects. Again behind a wall you don't even roll hide, but you can't attack either so that's fairly useless. Once you peek around a corner, a tree trunk, random clutter or whatever you have cover and can hide and then shoot. Cover also gives +4 AC, which is handy. Kneeling gives another +2 AC against range but -2 AC against melee.

Since you have a lot of melee allies rapid shot vs. precise shot is a tough call. But I'd say rapid shot since round 1 sneak attacks matter the most and your allies won't be in melee yet. Either way get the missing feat at level 6.

Elves are also handy on rogues because of the +2 spot, listen and search, plus you automatically search for secret doors. For that matter a little wisdom is handy on a scout to help you get surprise rounds, not to mention your will saves.

A maxed disable device would be nice. Other than that moving around a skill rank here and there won't be that critical. It is nice to have at least 1 rank in trained-only skills if you can use them at all, but sense-motive can be used untrained (at 0 ranks) so it's not as important. A low open lock is fine if your DM lets you spend 2 minutes to take a 20 like the rules say, but some don't.

Sultan

2012-03-05, 08:06 PM

Oh, I thought that if I was in an area of a room, for instance, that had total darkness, and I was in that area, I would have total concealment. So like, if I was in that total darkness, that wouldn't stop me from seeing into areas of the room that have light, and if an enemy without darkvision or whatnot was in an area of a room that I could see, I could then sneak attack that enemy since I would have total concealment from the total darkness that I was in.

Rapid shot is starting to seem like the better choice, as Ericgrau pointed out. Apparently our monk character got a new job and thus his schedule has changed, making him unavailable to play. So now the party is my rogue/bard/cleric. :O Not sure if another will be recruited down the road.

Should still be fun though.

Sultan

2012-03-06, 06:49 PM

ericgrau

2012-03-06, 09:13 PM

Ya if you're in total darkness and your foe isn't, and he doesn't have darkvision (most greenskins and other monsters do, unfortunately), you can sneak attack without even rolling a hide check. In shadowy illumination you have concealment but not total concealment so you need a hide check.

The nice thing about low light vision is that light sources effectively have double radius for you. So you might see perfectly fine 35' from a torch while it's shadowy illumination for your target and thus let's you hide while seeing him clearly without any concealment to muck up your sneak attack.

Fitz10019

2012-03-10, 08:51 AM

Monk buddy: The party has a monk. If the monk has a grapple build, you'd be very successful sneak attacking anyone he grapples. Anyone in a grapple looses his dex bonus to AC vs. people not in the grapple. You'd have a lot of fun 2WeapFighting the monk's victims, even with the penalties. A potential problem is whether the other player will mind you killing 'his' opponent. Another problem is basing your build on another player's decisions (always tricky). A big problem is basing your build on the survivability of a monk.

Consider part-time archery: if you choose feats for a melee build, still never get a shield bigger than a buckler, to keep one hand free. Carry your short bow in any dangerous area (don't invest a feat in longbow). Round one, shoot anyone flat-footed, and watch the other players engage in melee. Hopefully the monk will tackle someone. Round two, drop the bow (free action) and move into a sneak attack position. Draw your melee weapon during that movement in round two (drawing is free during movement). Rogues rushing into melee during round one, eager to get a sneak against someone flatfooted, often find themselves in a bad situation. R1 shoot; R2 get close. [Actually, keep shooting as long as there's a flatfooted target (like from Grease or Glitterdust).]

Equipment: some have mentioned the ring of blinking -- note that while it lets you attack as if you were invisible, your attacks will still have a miss chance, even if you launch a missile. The Blink spell does not specify that it stops when you let go of something (the way Invisibility does). A blinking character's arrows continue to blink throughout the attack, and have the same miss chance as a melee attack.

Creativity: the more creative suggestions here like planting lint and throwing sand will need your GM's blessing.

Feats: whenever you choose feats, ask yourself 'how often will I use this?' Is the answer every round of combat? Once every combat? Once a month? Once a year? That's how I have fun -- choosing feats that apply to situations that often occur in my DM's campaign.

ericgrau

2012-03-10, 01:41 PM

Good point. Melee sneak attacks works well with grappling, range works better with stunning for full attacks. EDIT: But oh the monk's gone, so nevermind.

Chronos

2012-03-10, 07:39 PM

Here's what I recommend for a core rogue (Shadowdancer is in the DMG; if your DM doesn't allow that, just take out that level and the prerequisite feats):

Halfling rogue 12/shadowdancer 1/rogue 7
Ability scores (25 point buy - If using 32 point buy, raise Dex to 19):
Str 10 (12 - 2)
Dex 16 (14 + 2) plus all level-up points
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 11

Feats:
1 Improved Initiative
3 Stealthy
6 Combat Reflexes
9 Dodge
12 Mobility
15 Two-Weapon Fighting
18 Quick Draw

Special abilities:
10 Skill Mastery (Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Search, Sleight of Hand)
14 Slippery Mind
17 Defensive Roll
20 Crippling Strike

Skills (10 per level):
Level 1:
Disable Device |4 (+6)
Hide |4 (+11)
Listen |4 (+6)
Move Silently |4 (+9)
Open Lock ||4 (+7)
Search |4 (+6)
Sleight of Hand |4 (+7)
Spot |4 (+4)
Use Magic Device |4 (+4)
Balance |4 (+7)
Level 6:
Disable Device |9 (+13)
Hide |9 (+20)
Listen |9 (+11)
Move Silently |9 (+18)
Open Lock |9 (+14)
Search |9 (+11)
Sleight of Hand |9 (+12)
Spot |9 (+9)
Use Magic Device |9 (+9)
Balance |5 (+8)
Decipher Script |3 (+5)
Tumble |1 (+4)
Level 12:
Disable Device |15 (+19, mastered)
Hide |14 (+27, mastered)
Listen |15 (+17)
Move Silently |15 (+26, mastered)
Open Lock |15 (+22)
Search |15 (+17, mastered)
Sleight of Hand |15 (+20, mastered)
Spot |15 (+15)
Use Magic Device |15 (+15, +17 with scrolls)
Balance |5 (+10)
Decipher Script |5 (+7)
Perform (dance) |5 (+5)
Tumble |1 (+6)
Level 20:
Disable Device |23 (+28, mastered)
Hide |23 (+43, mastered)
Listen |23 (+26)
Move Silently |23 (+41, mastered)
Open Lock |23 (+37)
Search |23 (+26, mastered)
Sleight of Hand |23 (+35, mastered)
Spot |23 (+24)
Use Magic Device |23 (+25, +27 with scrolls)
Balance |5 (+17)
Decipher Script |5 (+8)
Perform (dance) |5 (+7)
Disguise |5 (+7)
Tumble |1 (+13)

Equipment:

Level 1:

Mundane items:
Item |Cost |Weight
*Backpack |2 |.5
Bedroll |.1 |1.25
Block and tackle |5 |5
Caltrops |1 |2
*2 candles |.02 |-
*2 pieces chalk |.02 |-
Crowbar |2 |5
*Fishhook |.1 |-
*Flint and steel |1 |-
Grappling hook |1 |4
Hammer |.5 |2
Ink |8 |-
Pen |.1 |-
*Bullseye lantern |12 |3
*Mirror |10 |.5
*2 flasks oil |.2 |2
*10 sheets paper |4 |-
Miner's pick |3 |10
10 pitons |1 |5
*Belt pouch |1 |.125
*1 day's rations |.5 |.25
4 days' rations |2 |1
*50 feet silk rope |10 |5
Sewing needle |.5 |-
*Signal whistle |.8 |-
Soap |.5 |1
Shovel |2 |8
Tent |10 |5
*Waterskin |1 |1
Whetstone |.02 |1
*Wooden holy symbol |1 |-
*Thieves' tools |30 |1
*Traveler's Outfit |- |1.25
*Leather armor |10 |7.5
*Dagger (4) |8 |2

*Burrs (8) |0 |-
*100' Fishing line |.2 |-

Pack mule |8 |-
2 days feed |.1 |20
Saddlebags |4 |8

Total |143.66 |107.375
Total carried | |24.125 (Max load 24.75 pounds)
* indicates items generally kept on person. All other items are on mule
Level 6:
Level 1 gear minus mule
Plus:
Mundane Items
Thieves' tools upgraded to mwk. |70
Climbing kit |80
Disguise kit |50
*Padded black cloak (mwk. tool for Hide and Move Silently) |100
*1 dagger upgraded to mwk. |300
*Mwk. sling |300
*10 bullets |.1
10 cold iron bullets |.2
10 silver bullets |20.1
Mwk. darkwood longspear |350
Lead scroll case |2

Alchemical items:
Acid (2) |20
Alchemist's Fire (2) |40
*Antitoxin (2) |100
*Everburning lantern |25
Holy Water (3) |75
*Smokestick (2) |40
Sunrod (2) |4
Tanglefoot bag (2) |100
Thunderstone (4) |120
*Tindertwig (10) |10

Magic items:
Universal Solvent |50
Unguent of Timelessness |150
Silversheen |250
Dust of Tracelessness |250
Elixir of Hiding |250
Elixir of Sneaking |250
Wand of Acid Splash |375
Wand of Ray of Frost |375
Wand of Prestidigitation |375
Feather token (tree) |400
Feather token (boat) |450
Wand of Reduce Person |750
Wand of Magic Aura |750
Wand of Hide from Animals |750
Potion of Gaseous Form |750
Hand of the Mage |900
Salve of Slipperiness |1000
Scroll of Antimagic Field |1650
Handy Haversack |2000

total |12,745

Level 12:
Level 6 plus:
Universal solvent (1) |50
Dust of Tracelessness (1) |250
Elixir of Hiding (4) |1000
Elixir of Sneaking (4) |1000
Feather token (tree) (1) |400
Feather token (boat) (1) |450
Hat of Disguise |1800
Sovereign glue |2400
Dust of Sneezing and Choking |2400
Rope of Climbing |3000
Marvelous Pigments |4000
Gloves of Dexterity +2 |4000
Wand of Cat's Grace |4500
Wand of Silence |4500
Wand of Flame Blade |4500
Immovable Rod (2) |10,000
Tan bag of tricks |6300
Decanter of Endless Water |9000
Necklace of Adaptation |9000

Dagger upgraded to silver,+1 |2020
Sling upgraded to +1 |2000
Mithral chain shirt +1 |1100

Total |87,065

Level 20:
Level 12 plus:
Lead handkerchief wallet |1
Sovereign Glue (1) |2400
Dust of Sneezing and Choking (2) |4800
Sustaining Spoon |5400
Rod of Wonder |12,000
Winged Boots |16,000
Portable Hole |20,000
Ring of Invisibility |20,000
Luck Blade |22,060
Cloak of Resistance +5 |25,000
Tome of Leadership +1 |27,500
Pale green ioun stone |30,000
Gloves of Dexterity upgraded to +6 |32,000
Ring Gates |40,000
Ring of Freedom of Movement |40,000
Ring of Protection +5 |50,000
Rod of Lordly Might |70,000
Manual of Dex +5 |137,500

Adamantine dagger +1, holy, returning |39,002
Mwk. adamantine dagger (2) |6,004
Mithral Shirt upgraded to +5 of etherealness |73,000

Total |759,731