Worlds Largest Dungeon SOLO. What does it take?

[Wookie-ranger]

Hi,
The title says it.
What does it take to have fun in the Worlds Largest Dungeon; and also not die.

First of all. I did not read the WLD module and have no intent in doing so. If I ever get to play it, I don't want to rob me of all the fun in being surprised. I do know what it is more or less about and I googled it quiet a bit.

General limitation/char creation rules:

As of now I don't have a DM or anything yet, so it is not a pressing matter and more of a thought experiment. Preliminary rules:
1. Gestalt: a single class simple does not have the versatility to do all jobs of an entire party. A Gestalt character however could do at least most of them.
2. small amount of Cheese allowed: We are talking about the WLD solo. Come on cut me some slack. That being said, obviously nothing game-breaking or Pun-Pun.
3. 'Superman array” (18,16,14,12,10,8): not sure if that is what its called, but that's that. Why so high? Again, WLD solo, that's why.
4. High wealth to start: WBL for Level 3
5. As far as I read in the forums Summons don't work, Teleportation are nerfed, and divinations that rely on outsider/gods/etc don't work.
6. Personally i would rather not like to play a Factotum, Psi-user, incarnum, or maneuvers/stances. i know they can be fun, but i have never played one myself and i would rather stick to the Core style of play.
7. all books are OK.

Maybes or not sure:
1. Not sure about starting level. With all the things mentioned above, starting at a level above first might be too powerful to be fun.
2. LA +x races or templates. Again, might be too powerful


What the Character would need:
The character would need to have:
1. Self healing, for obvious reasons.
2. Endurance, as far as I understand it, there are not many places to rest and enemies are plentiful; including the potential of on encounter making monsters in other areas to come and investigate.
3. Crowd control, you would be facing lots of enemies, some big some small. One big monster vs one PC is tough, but usually fair. One PC vs 10 mooks is not so fun due to the action economy.
4. Minions, to help with action economy, absorb AoO, spring traps, scout, stay guard; inshort act as a support party.
5. able to look for and disable traps and open secret doors



What I was thinking of:
Lesser Aasimar (possibly Necropolitan)
Dread Necromancer/?? // Cloistered Cleric/??

PrCs that is consider:
Pale master: lose a caster level and wast a feat; gain free animate dead. Not sure if I would be running across a lot of gems.
Walker of the walk: unholy toughness.
Dread Witch: fear is fun


If you managed o read through all of this, thanks. We are almost done! :smallbiggrin:
Questions:
1. As far as I read in the forums Summons don't work, Teleportation is nerfed, and divinations that rely on outsider/gods/etc don't work. Is this true? How does it usually affect the game? What are whys to compensate for it? Common houserules?

2. What to you think about my preliminary build? Is a DN//CC viable? What about PrCs/multi-classing, any good ideas?

3. How fun do you think the WLD solo would be? Or would it be more fun in a Party?

4. any other good advice on the WLD? things that from your experience work or don't work? (please not to many spoilers)

[IdleMuse]

I'll tell you what you do need; an ungodly amount of patience. The WLD is large, quite dull and very repetitive in places. For the early part, the fights aren't that hard, though some of the traps are. I'd suggest, if you're going Gestalt, sticking the Mineral Warrior template on one side at first level will get you a long way, as will any way of getting good DR, really. DMM Cleric seems like a pretty standard auto on one side.

[Cor1]

At what level would you begin?

The most obvious way to do that would be, IMO, something stupidly overpowered. Since you're looking at Gestalt already, maybe this level of cheese could pass your muster :

Erudite, variant Spell-to-power.

Limitation 1 : power points per day.
Solution : any Psionic Recharge Method.
The one I use, personally, is to manifest Bestow Power linked to Bestow Power on myself through my psicrystal with a Torc of Power Preservation (36,000gp, found in the Expanded Psionics Handbook) and the Metapower feat. Expensive, but gets you there. You can replace the item by three feats - Earth Sense, Earth Power and Psicrystal Containment so you keep a focus while spending your crystal's to Link the powers. But then there are more psionic tricks to get a LOT of feat slots should you need them (and you do).

Limitation 2 : unique powers per day.
Solution : Buy a mundane bag, and learn Quintessence from the Expanded Psionics and Soul Crystal from Magic of Incarnum.
Method : Fill the bag with Quintessence. Everything you put in it will be in temporal stasis, and Soul Crystals have a duration. Then, manifest Soul Crystal and enclose each power you know in at least one of them. You now have a crystalline grimoire of, potentially, every spell and power in the game. Each of them can be cast as a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Still, Triple 9s, all day, erry day.

Limitation 3 : you're still alone.
Solution : Clone your Familiars.
Method : Psicrystals get feats. Manifest Metamorphosis, sharing it with your psicrystal, to get rid of its imperviousness to Mind-affecting powers, if your DM ignores that monsters can voluntarily let effects pass their immunities. Manifest Psychic Reformation on your psicrystal to replace its Alertness feat with the Hidden Talent feat. Your psicrystal can now explicitly take Psionic, Metapsionic and Psionic Item Creation feats. Have it take Psicrystal Affinity : your Psicrystal now has a Psicrystal. You now can have three psionic foci. With the Feat Leech power, you can share their feats. They have one every three HDs.

Limitation 4 : Spells/Powers access.
Solution : Soul Crystal (again.)
Method : get a Soul Crystal of Soul Crystal from a high-level psionic. Everything you use it for will be manifested at that psionic's manifester level. Enjoy your triple9s at level one, you and your army of clones.

Limitation 4 : Actions per round.
Solution : break the action economy.
Method : Manifest an Affinity Field on yourself. Manifest an Affinity Field on your psicrystal. (To avoid redundant overlapping effects questions the DM might have if you just share it.) Manifest Synchronicity, augmented. Result : you, your crystal and everyone in the range of the overlapping fields gets infinity readied actions, each of which can be any action and can be taken in reaction to anything anyone else does. Total temporal breakdown until the end of the turn. Note that the effects don't extend to Schismed minds, but by that point it's not really a problem.

Dunno if the size of the holes in the rules that this build stub implies disqualify it. But it's basically a Psion who manifests powers from a bag, it's just "any power or spell ever written" that you could justify having seen.

It's still very straightforward. Choose to be a Half-Giant Elan and you're well on the way to total psionic unkillability.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think a Dragonwrought Kobold Cloistered Cleric could do it... with a lot of DM help... and starting at 3rd level, and a bunch of money spent pre game start...

Destroy Undead acf (base)
eventually, get Rebuke Undead from Death Delver and get Turn Undead from Sacred Exorcist. You will at least have a reliquary holy symbol, though you might not be able to get a Nightstick...

With this, the Extra Turning feat adds 4 to each pool

Earth Kobold

L1 Feat: Dragonwrought (Rust Dragon)
Trait: Nearsighted
Flaw1: ?
Flaw1Feat: Extend Spell
Flaw2: ?
Flaw2Feat: Persist Spell
L3 feat: Winter's Blast

pre game start, DCFS two feats: (from the Kobold automatic pick proficiencies)
get Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell
Extra Turning

Domains: Kobold, Trickery
sacrifice Cloistered Cleric Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion

Use the Catalogs of Enlightenment to gain Transformation domain pre game start. Alter Self into tiny Dragons with lots of natural armor, either Persisting that, or perhaps persisting Ebon Eyes (to augment your natural darkvision, and let you never have to use a light source, and be able to overcome darkness spells, which you will encounter lots of at game start), or persisting Mass Lesser Vigor for unlimited healing.

Gain Iron Will via Otyugh Hole. DCFS this to Ancestral Relic. Make the relic a neck-slot item.

Ancestral Relic: Neck-slot item, counts as Masterwork Holy Symbol, eventually Reliquary Holy Symbol, use the 1.5x cheaper costs to pump as much awesomeness into this item as possible from the very limited, and often mundane, treasure.

[deuxhero]

maybe this level of cheese could pass your munster :


FIXED!

*runs*

No Psionics, Martial Adept or Factotum kills the standard gestalt options (Psion or Factotum//Warblade).

No summons means Malconvoker is out.

Ah!

Complete Warrior Samurai//Aristocrat!

Really though, Druid//Anything not that squishy is good, preferably worshiping that FR god that lets you wear metal armor.

[Rubik]

Actually, you can summon and call stuff IN; they just can't get OUT.

IE, once they're in, they're permanent. So you summon something, command it to fail its save vs your Dominate Monster, and then you have infiniminions.

Thrallherd would be fun, too.

[Suddo]

Edit: Sorry I didn't see the rule about no Factotum or ToB. Oops.

Gesalt hmmm...
Quick questions:
LA Buyoff?
Dragon Magazines?
Flaws?
Traits?

Warforged Warblade 20 // Factotum 20 would be one of the most reliable builds out there. You would only need to stop to rest for 10 minute periods when your Inspiration runs low. You'd probably do something like:
Str: 18
Con: 14
Dex: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
Or something.

You could try for some cheese with the un-stoppable Warforge (Fire-Soul Half Black Dragon Warforge Juggernaut). Though if you double hurt your levels with LA it might not be worth it.

[Wings of Peace]

It takes a village. :smallcool:

[Rubik]

You would only need to stop to rest for 10 minute periods when your Inspiration runs low.
Or if you encounter something new, like a door.

[Gavinfoxx]

I find that giving the DM a heuristic of how you do searches, where, how you approach doors, walls, intersections, halfway points along corridors (hint: it all involves searching and listening), how you go about entering a room, etc. etc. can dramatically increase the speed the module happens. You just have the DM run you on autopilot for 90% of the module, and actually play for 10% of the interesting stuff.

[Randomguy]

SOTAO mystic wildshape trapfinding ranger//Artificer.

You get arcane spells, divine spells, trapfinding, wildshape, decent HD, full BAB and great skill points from SOTAO mystic ranger.
Artificer gets you magic items and robotic minions, should you choose to build them. At high levels, you can get infinite gold with thought bottle abuse + the true creation spell. Use xp to get money, use money and xp to make items, regain xp, repeat. Your homonculus can either build stuff in a portable hole while you adventure or scan for traps with a ring of xray vision.

Or maybe Sorcadin//Cloistered Cleric, for good melee and a TON of charisma. The cleric side could be focused on minionmancy: Control undead, Control some kind of elementals, Control spiders, control scalykind, control oozes, whatever you want your army to consist of.

[Wings of Peace]

SOTAO mystic wildshape trapfinding ranger//Artificer.

You get arcane spells, divine spells, trapfinding, wildshape, decent HD, full BAB and great skill points from SOTAO mystic ranger.


What level is WLD supposed to go to? Because if it goes too far then the sudden lack of better spellcasting is going to suck.

Sha'ir gets my vote, going into Skypledged. Or a Wizard using the 9th level spells at level 1 hack.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You really need three things:
1. Survivability - A way to avoid dying, including to traps. This includes not starting encounters low on HP.
2. Sustainability - You'll have to keep going even when low on per-day abilities.
3. Action Economy - The big difference between a solo gestalt character and two PCs is the fact that those two PCs each get to act every round, while the solo character only acts once.

Action Economy can usually be solved with one or more of several tricks: White Raven Tactics (you said no maneuvers), Psionic tricks like Schism, Control Body + Solicit Psicrystal, and Synchronicity + Affinity Field (but you don't want to use psionics), or Factotum 8 (and you also don't want to use Factotum) are the easier and more popular choices. Minions are also good for action economy, between an Animal Companion, (Improved) Familiar, Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), Leadership, and created undead/constructs you could have a pretty decent set of sidekicks. I'm not sure if there's a total lack of summoning or some kind of summoned-things-can't-go-home and then it gets complicated every time you do it. Regardless, classic solo tricks like going Thaumaturgist for a Ghaele planar cohort probably won't work anyway. It's just a shame that you'll probably miss out on Greenbound Summoning.

You can have completely broken action economy shenanigans by 7th level. Go Swordsage 1/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 1/ X 2/ Crusader 2 with Extra Granted Maneuver at 6th, and you can White Raven Tactics infinitely. Basically, everything rolls initiative, but from your initiative count you get to act on every initiative count. Once the creature with the lowest initiative has acted that round is over and it goes to the next round. You'll need to spend your last WRT turn to delay until the first initiative count of the next turn, otherwise you'll be going last and won't be able to WRT-spam any more. I think RAW you can actually just keep using WRT infinitely during the first round, everything only acts once and then you just keep taking turn after turn until you win, but making each combat round start on the first rolled initiative number and end on the last rolled initiative number is much more reasonable.

Anyone with access to the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spell list can cast Obscuring Snow and Snowsight in Frostburn, preferably with a Lesser Rod of Extend. Snowsight will require the Winter domain (via Arcane Disciple) or access to the Druid or Ranger spell list, but it's still manageable. This combination of spells, usable at 3rd level, is one of the most powerful sight-deprivation debuffs in the entire game. In nearly every encounter it will give you a severely unfair advantage, if not outright trivializing it.

One serious caster cheese is a Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Venerable Desert Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds) Loredrake with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. You go Wizard 1 and then Stalwart (CM) Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) until you prestige out into something like Paragnostic Apostle 1/ Incantatrix 3/ Abjurant Champion. Stalwart Battle Sorcerer gets 1d8+2+Con HP/level, and its Sorcerer spellcasting with reduced spells/day and spells known gets traded for Wizard casting of equal level, without any of the drawbacks. You also get +3 levels worth of Sorcerer spellcasting from Loredrake and the GDRoP, which also gets converted into Wizard casting. From levels 2-5 you cast as a (level +2) Wizard, from 6 on you get (Level +3) Wizard casting. With Incantatrix you can Persist all of your buffs, including Arcane Thesis Fell Drain Repeat Twinned Cloud of Knives (cast multiple times by some rulings), and shared with your Familiar to deal multiple negative levels per round as a free action. Between Abjurant Champion and Paragnostic Apostle, you'll get +24 AC from Shield and Greater Luminous Armor. You can also Persist defensive spells like Displacement, Greater Mirror Image, Ray Deflection, etc. You can use Shrink Item and/or Explosive Runes + voluntarily-failed Dispel Magic shenanigans to kill opponents in one shot.

Druid is extremely good, considering your Animal Companion. Get either a Fleshraker or a Dire Eagle (RoS), and take Natural Bond (CV) to still count your full Druid level toward its benefits. If you don't use the Fleshraker, or can get past the contradictory exalted-doesn't-use-poison rule, you can use Exalted Companion to make it a Celestial Creature and then it can take Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty. In any case, it should be Magebred (ECS) if possible, and you can use Handle Animal to give it the Warbeast template (MM2). Wild Shape makes your character extremely potent in melee, plus you get plenty of buffs. With a source of Turn Undead you can even DMM: Persist buffs like Bite of the Werecreature for some extreme bonuses. Sadly you're cheated out of summons in WLD, so tricks like Greenbound Summoning for 1st-level spells that produce Wall of Thorns are out, but you've still got tricks like Empowered Fire Seeds.

I'd probably go something like Swordsage 1/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 1/ Swordsage 1/ Druid 1/ Crusader 2/ Druid 13// Cloistered Cleric 1/ Wizard 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 1/ Paragnostic Apostle 2/ Incantatrix 3/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Incantatrix 7, using the above Kobold shenanigans with Wild Cohort at 1st level via flaws. Domains should be Kobold and Trickery, with Knowledge Devotion, so you have Trapfinding with Search and Disable Device and can use Cleric wands and DMM. You should also get Hidden Talent for Chameleon to use a Dorje (wand) of Chameleon, which stacks with the Druid spell Camouflage for +20 Hide.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I don't see how Factotum is against "core" D&D, and it is perhaps the most broadly applicable passive side of a Gestalt with minimal paperwork in advance. Rogue is a passable replacement, but it works best if you allow entry into combination classes such as Unseen Seer.

I'd do something that's going to be able to (1) Find and disable any trap that might get you, (2) Get the jump on most encounters, and (3) Avoid encounters if necessary. This, IMO, necessitates a focus on skills (in this case, Rogue), always-on stealth (in this case, Darkstalker) and always-on Radar action (in this case, Mindsight). Throw in full casting and late game is covered. So let's start with a Dark Whisper Gnome and advance as such:

{table=head]Class 1|Class 2|Feats/ACFs
Wizard 1|Dark Template LA 1|Darkstalker (LoM), Collegiate Wizard (CA), Invisible Spell (City), Point Blank Shot (ACF, UA)
Wizard 2|Rogue 1|
Wizard 3|Rogue 2|Extend Spell
Wizard 4|Rogue 3|
Wizard 5|Rogue 4|Spontaneous Divination (CC)
Mindbender 1|Rogue 5|Mindsight (LoM)
Spellwarp Sniper 1|Rogue 6|
Spellwarp Sniper 2|Rogue 7|Learn Frost Breath (SpC)
Incantatrix 1|Rogue 8|Split Ray (CA), Twin Spell (CA)
Incantatrix 2|Rogue 9|Hunter's Eye (PHBII)
Incantatrix 3|Rogue 10|Persistent Spell (CD), Learn Cloud of Knives (PHBII)
Incantatrix 4|Rogue 11|Ocular Spell (LoM), Fell Drain (LM?)
Incantatrix 5|Rogue 12|Every
Incantatrix 6|Rogue 13|
Incantatrix 7|Rogue 14|Persistable
Incantatrix 8|Rogue 15|
Incantatrix 9|Rogue 16|Spell
Incantatrix 10|Rogue 17|
Arcane PrC X|Rogue 18|Possible
Arcane PrC X|Rogue 19|[/table]Spellwarp Sniper may (in most cases) require multiclassing to get *in*, but IMO it doesn't advance rogue features enough to qualify as a dual-advancing PrC. A couple d6s of not-SA-but-basically-SA and a few more skill points than wizard aren't enough when the rest of the class is focused on arcanists who use rays. You take SWS to get Frost Breath for an extendable, splittable no-save daze attack which you can eventually split, twin and ocular to affect 8 enemies at once. Note that your SA won't apply to a large variety of dungeon creatures (one reason Factotum is superior), but you don't necessarily *need* the extra damage if your foes take no actions. Late game, use Incantatrix's Metamagic Effect to persist a bunch of ridiculous buffs on you and Win WLD (tm).

[grarrrg]

Warlock solves your "spell slot" problem, and it doesn't (necessarily) need any high-stats.

Have your B side cover the Warlock's weaknesses and/or any LA.

[Psyren]

I'm not totally familiar with WLD, but from what I've heard about it, it's hard to rest and recover spent "per-day" resources, right?

There are plenty of great "infinite" classes that are perpetual-motion-machines - your Binders, your Warlocks, your DFA, your Incarnum. Pick one or more of them and go to town.

[2xMachina]

Hmm, I played a DFA//Factotum for solo NED before... DFA gives unlimited area damage, entangles. Try to get Draconic Aura: Vigor for healing. Factotum gives decent trap finding, skills, etc.

Main stats are Con (DFA) and Int (Factotum)

I try to bypass traps with the use of 10' pole and not touching anything. Never be near anything (switches, etc) that is activated. Always wear gloves, and only touch something at a last resort. Use 11' pole to lead the way, pressing firmly with it before stepping there.

EDIT: Oh, and Venerable (Sovereign Archtype) Dragonwrought Dragonborn Kobold

[TroubleBrewing]

Dread Necro might not be a bad choice either.

Oh, crap. Material components... Yeah, nevermind. The distinct lack of treasure would kill a necromancer.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Factotum 8/Warblade 12//Wizard 20 (or any combination of Factotum/Warblade/Wizard, preferably Factotum//Warblade or Factotum//Wizard) would be your best bet.

You have to understand how badly you're gimping yourself here; not only are the martial adepts one of the biggest power boosts melee has ever gotten (being beaten out, really, only by cheese or very specific feat interactions), but both maneuvers and inspiration points are among your best options for encounter powers, which provides a nigh-unlimited (as in, limited only by the number of encounters) resource pool for your abilities. Factotum even gives you extra standard actions, which helps you get over the action economy deficiency (on top of the cool things it gets otherwise).

If you're not allowing "unconventional" styles, such as Shadow, Truename, Pact, and Inarcanum magic, inspiration, and maneuvers, what would be your stance on invocations? It's unconventional, but it's a limitless (if narrow) resource pool. I'd suggest Warlock over Dragonfire Adept, because ranged touch attacks are (generally) better than save-based damage. In particular, Fell Flight with Eldritch Glaive would allow you to fly well above any ground-based enemies and traps, and snipe enemies from afar. Then, load up on reliable utility powers and/or battlefield control and go to town.

Your other side is, ideally, a CHA-based caster, probably Sorcerer. Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold and all, of course; you need those extra spells from a very early level. Stats are CHA > CON > DEX > WIS > INT > STR. Use Warlock to grab utility invocations that you'll use very often, and then the Sorcerer for your "nuke button/panic button" spells, when you need to end an encounter as quickly as humanly possible, and need to draw on raw power to do it. Lacks the straight power of a wizard, but the premise of the WLD is that it's difficult to rest up, so sleep and spell preparation aren't guaranteed, so the wizard's advantage is cut back a bit.

[Evard]

Warforged Druid/Crusader/Factotum

Yeah you heard me...

Take the feat that allows a warforged to be a druid, take the stance that heals 2/hit. Also crusaders strike would be a good idea. Warforged scout works well with this.

Optimal? No
Fun? Yes :D

Animal Companion, spells, healing in and out of combat, UNLIMITED healing, shaleighlee (ok I can't spell), wildshape, a crap ton of immunities.

Oh and skills

Change factotum to feat rogue for the heck of it and more feats.

Edit: Use wild empathy and make the WLD your home :)

[deuxhero]

You don't need a feat to be a druid as a Warforged, your basic armor plating works fine.

[Evard]

You don't need a feat to be a druid as a Warforged, your basic armor plating works fine.

No, you have to take the feat that makes your armor some sort of wood... it says so in the feat description. Your base plating is metal armor thus you disqualify due to a druid not being allowed to wear metal armor.

Odd I know haha

[dextercorvia]

No, you have to take the feat that makes your armor some sort of wood... it says so in the feat description. Your base plating is metal armor thus you disqualify due to a druid not being allowed to wear metal armor.

Odd I know haha

Or you can spend the 100gp and become a Dragonborn. You lose the armor plating, but keep most of the reason you became Warforged (Living Construct subtype)

[deuxhero]

No, you have to take the feat that makes your armor some sort of wood... it says so in the feat description. Your base plating is metal armor thus you disqualify due to a druid not being allowed to wear metal armor.

Odd I know haha

It's explicitly said you can as long as you don't have one of the alternate body feats in a web article (the one with the Eberron reincarnation table).

[Tyndmyr]

I'd say a warforged crusader. You can grind through most of the things, and just stab tunnels through walls until you finally get out.

[Vendle]

WLD has some guidelines up front that specifically recommend against using a wizard, for the simple reason that the PCs simply won't encounter enough scrolls or research materials for them to diversify their spell list. You also won't easily find additional empty spellbooks or rare inks. Perhaps an alternate spellbook option would work, but these minor drawbacks can become a major issue in just a few levels.

The druid is also handicapped, although less so, because there are so very few animals to encounter in the WLD. They have an exceptionally narrow pool to draw from for animal companions and (if your DM won't handwave some pre-adventure familiarity with exotic creatures) wild shaping.

[Gavinfoxx]

WLD has some guidelines up front that specifically recommend against using a wizard, for the simple reason that the PCs simply won't encounter enough scrolls or research materials for them to diversify their spell list. You also won't easily find additional empty spellbooks or rare inks. Perhaps an alternate spellbook option would work, but these minor drawbacks can become a major issue in just a few levels.

The druid is also handicapped, although less so, because there are so very few animals to encounter in the WLD. They have an exceptionally narrow pool to draw from for animal companions and (if your DM won't handwave some pre-adventure familiarity with exotic creatures) wild shaping.

Which, of course, completely goes against any sanity. The Druid SHOULD be able to simply, via their meditation and connection with nature, know about natural things. That's what lets them max out Knowledge - Nature (that meditation and connection), and they are not restricted in what animal companion they take by location in any way other than the aquatic vs non-aquatic thing. A bunch of the house rules in this campaign are really really stupid and should not be enforced.

DM: "You don't know about that animal, so you can't wild shape into it"

Druid Player: "Uh, what? I have maxed knowledge nature. Of course I know about that animal. 10 plus hit dice and all that. It has four hit dice. I have a +10 on knowledge nature."

DM: "No, you don't, you haven't encountered that animal in the dungeon, where you have been since first level. You don't know about that animal"

Druid Player: "Even if that was how knowledge nature works, and it isn't, my innate connection with nature lets me know about stuff. You know, from my meditations at dawn when I commune with nature?"

DM: "You just can't, okay? And you also can't summon one to replace your dead animal companion, they don't live here."

Druid Player: "What? Since when am I restricted by where things live for summoning an animal companion? I could be on an airship and summon a burrowing creature, and it would come! That's how the ability works! The only restriction is aquatic vs non aquatic, ie, where they can innately survive when called!"

DM: "Well, this book says that you just can't, so you can't!"

[Mordokai]

Druid Player: "What? Since when am I restricted by where things live for summoning an animal companion? I could be on an airship and summon a burrowing creature, and it would come! That's how the ability works! The only restriction is aquatic vs non aquatic, ie, where they can innately survive when called!"

Bring out your moles for carpet bombing! :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

I'd say a warforged crusader. You can grind through most of the things, and just stab tunnels through walls until you finally get out.

I definitely agree, but he doesn't want ToB for some reason.


WLD has some guidelines up front that specifically recommend against using a wizard, for the simple reason that the PCs simply won't encounter enough scrolls or research materials for them to diversify their spell list. You also won't easily find additional empty spellbooks or rare inks. Perhaps an alternate spellbook option would work, but these minor drawbacks can become a major issue in just a few levels.

Eidetic Aerenei Elven Generalist solves both issues - 4 free spells/level and no need of spellbooks. Should be plenty of mushrooms down there too to get blitzed off of when it's time to prepare spells.

Of course, I'd recommend Psion myself :smallwink:

[Mordokai]

I definitely agree, but he doesn't want ToB for some reason.

He said he'd like to work without it. Personally, I think if anything fits in WLD, it's ToB and crusader twice as much. In gestalt, it would be pretty much a sin not to take at least a few levels of initiator. Like I said, I think crusader works best, but any of them would work wonders.

[Gavinfoxx]

Gray Elf race
Wizard Class
Elf Generalist Wizard Racial substitution level
Eidetic Spellcaster ACF
Spontaneous Divination ACF
Collegiate Wizard Feat
Aerenal Arcanist Feat
Eschew Materials Feat
Winter's Blast Feat

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Does WLD contain spellbook-destroying DM screw? If not I don't think you need the full-on easy bake wizard. Besides, you're not going to find special scribing material for eidetic.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, you won't find ink OR incense... full on easy bake means you get a ridiculous amount of spells per level, no ink or incense needed...

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The part I'm wondering about is eidetic. IIRC it doesn't give you more spells by itself. It just lets you keep the spells in your head, in exchange for scribe scroll and your familiar. Both of these things can be traded for other tasty things, so I'm wondering if it's necessary.

[Venser]

IMO a cleric who later goes into Radiant servant of Pelor could do the trick.

Nice bab, self healing(amazing healing when he becomes radiant servant), all armors, all weapons, great saves, some of the best spells in the game.

Cleric is your best option for any SOLO game.

[Psyren]

The part I'm wondering about is eidetic. IIRC it doesn't give you more spells by itself. It just lets you keep the spells in your head, in exchange for scribe scroll and your familiar. Both of these things can be traded for other tasty things, so I'm wondering if it's necessary.

Your mind (unlike a book, or your body) has unlimited capacity. If you're in a place where you can't get additional spellbooks, Eidetic can come in handy.

Eidetic says that instead of ink, you need special incense to "scribe" your spells - but if you're just relying on the spells you get for free (2/level + EG + AEW) then you don't need to scribe them.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Blank spellbooks cost 15 gp a piece, meaning you can come into the dungeon with quite a few of them - especially, as the OP stated, if you start with level 3 WBL - so I doubt that's a concern. Again, you can be a collegiate elven generalist aerial arcanist without eidetic spellcaster. What you get from eidetic is peace of mind (no one can boop with your spellbook), at the cost of your familiar and scribe scroll, both of which can turn into nice things.

[Psyren]

Oh, I'm not advocating that one approach is absolutely better or worse than the other or anything.

But given that replacing any lost spellbooks will be impossible, peace of mind can be a nice thing to have.

[gorfnab]

Gray Elf race
Wizard Class
Elf Generalist Wizard Racial substitution level
Eidetic Spellcaster ACF
Spontaneous Divination ACF
Collegiate Wizard Feat
Aerenal Arcanist Feat
Eschew Materials Feat
Winter's Blast Feat
Don't forget Domain Wizard ACF (UA). Slightly cheezy though :smallwink:
Winter's Blast is nice. I like Acidic Splatter too since less things are immune to acid. Getting both would not be a bad option.

[Crasical]

Contrary to what the book says, I've been having a blast playing a druid in the WLD. I themed myself as a tiki-island worshiper of a volcano god with lots of fire and earth spells.

1. Elemental Companion: Earth elemental can move through the dungeon walls for scouting. Ordering it to climb the walls and then goomba stomp enemies does quite a bit of damage, a large earth elemental dealing 30d6 from a 10 foot fall.

2. Spellcasting 'soften earth and stone' lets you make new doors to avoid dangerous traps and locked doors

3. Shape Wood lets me craft shields and door-opening poles for the rest of the party.

4. I'm planning on going into Stonespeaker Guardian, so though It's weaker than wildshaping, I don't have any problems with 'do I know this creature to wild-shape into it?'

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's several builds I can think of that would fit the bill... but here's your considerations:

1) Endurance. Going through many, many fights in one 'day'. WLD is an endurance run, first and foremost. Wizards/Clerics/etc... are phenomenally powerful, make no mistake. However, WLD maximizes their weaknesses at lower levels. Wizards have a particular nerf-bat in a lack of magic-marts and friendly casters to crib spells off of, making them less flexible than they would be otherwise.

2) Survivability. If you die, it's Game Over Man. Thus, the ability to not be hit, or to recover well from hits and status effects, or be immune to status effects, is going to be a high importance. If you're going DN, ask if you can start off as a Necropolitian. This shores up your survivability significantly, even with a static hit die, due to immunity to many of the 'save or lose' conditions.

3) Damage output. Let's face it, it doesn't do you a hell of a lot of good to go down into a dungeon if you can't kill anything. Batman Wizards are hella strong, but by yourself, their problem is killing things that they have disabled. You need some kind of damage output to be viable.

4) Trapspringer. You need one. Somehow. Disposable minions are acceptable.

5) Magic Mart. You no haz one. Make a gear-independent character and assume you're never going to find so much as a masterworked item in your entire career. Either that, or make damn sure that you can make your own gear. Artificer works well here, lets you convert otherwise useless items into useful items. Warlock can also help at later levels, but it's around level 14 before the combo kicks in (Chameleon2 for the floating feat).

With these in mind, here's some options:

DFA//Wizard. You're gonna want Con anyways, so DFA doesn't make Wizard any more MAD. Basically, at low levels, you're a DFA with a few tricks. At higher levels, you're a Wizard with some free [Reserve] feats. For more fun, go Warforged and pick up the Repair x Damage line of spells for self-healing.

Warlock//DN. Actually pretty damn good, particularly if you can start off Necropolitian. Warlock provides lower-level endurance, while DN shoulders quite a bit of load once you hit level 8. DN provides unlimited out of combat healing, undead gives you a whole HOST of immunities, and you have a constant source of Disposable Minions to trigger traps, operate levers, walk down suspiciously normal pathways, etc...

Pal2/Crusader//Sorc. It's your bog-standard gish build with Extra Powah! I know you don't much care for ToB, but Crusader is pretty good for endurance and damage output. If you really don't want ToB, then shuffle around some other form of full BAB class and go Warforged for the Repair X Damage line healing.

Bard/Barbarian/War Chanter//Dread Necromancer.

You remember how Warlock/DN is fun? This is moreso. Why? DFI optimization. At higher levels, your Disposable Minions become Cruise Missiles with Song of the Legion + DFI + Requiem. Even at lower levels, you can buff your disposable minions to the point that they are pretty decent. Oh, and don't forget WhirlPounceBarian variants. Just remember, shouting "TROGDOR!!" as you jump into battle is mandatory.

Warblade//Cloistered Cleric

This is the build that makes paladins cry. I know, you don't like ToB, but there's no other melee class really worth taking here. Well, maybe Ranger, I suppose, but even then, you're looking at a distinct drop in damage and survivability. Also, look up the Spontaneous variant of Cleric, which gives you a 'spells known' list, but all of your domain spells are automatically 'known'. Now look up Sovereign Speaker. Bonus domain every level. You lose 2 caster levels. But you can spontaneously cast from your domains as much as you like. Pick up Travel, and you've got DimDoor/Teleport/etc. Pick up Celerity, you've got Haste. Cherry pick domains for abilities and/or spells.

Warblade//Incarnate

A bit unusual, but Incarnates have pretty darn good 'endurance', since few of their abilities as 'x/day'. Combine with Warblade's ability to Kick Arse, and you have a strong combo. Not much self-healing, though.

Totemist//Telepath/Thrallherd

Bring the pain. Just... bring it hard. Sure, you only get 3/4 BAB. Trust me, you won't miss the full BAB. Not with Totemist. At higher levels, you'll hardly ever get into combat anymore, just let the minions do the walking.

[Gavinfoxx]

Don't forget Domain Wizard ACF (UA). Slightly cheezy though :smallwink:
Winter's Blast is nice. I like Acidic Splatter too since less things are immune to acid. Getting both would not be a bad option.

I knew I forgot one, argh! I would say that, for WLD, you want something with an easy area of effect which doesn't need an attack roll. That's why I like Winter's Blast.

[Amphetryon]

I'll go against the grain here a bit:
Warforged Warlock//Skeletal Minion Variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#skeletalMinion) Necromancer. Use the Reserve Feat Sickening Grasp to further protect yourself against melee, ping away with your EB, and use the Necromancy spells to handle the rest.

[kulosle]

Artificer fixes a lot of you problems with having the appropriate items, so does ancestral relic. I'd recommend druid, animal companion to help with action economy, healing spells, and eschew material covers the majority of your spells. Oh and what ever you do you definitely need a rope trick like spell. It's the safest way to renew your spells.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Artificer fixes a lot of you problems with having the appropriate items, so does ancestral relic. I'd recommend druid, animal companion to help with action economy, healing spells, and eschew material covers the majority of your spells. Oh and what ever you do you definitely need a rope trick like spell. It's the safest way to renew your spells.

Well, if you go Artificer//Druid, you could make your own Rope Trick Wands with minimal difficulty by level 7. Heck, you could even go Warforged... then you could Transform and Roll Out! Also, not needing to eat is a boon in WLD, if your GM is a jerk. IIRC, you're basically going to end up making this a D&D version of a Roguelike, which means food and water are normally major concerns.

Just pick up Natural Spell at level 6, and this combo is pretty hard to really mess up...

[Curmudgeon]

This, IMO, necessitates a focus on skills (in this case, Rogue), always-on stealth (in this case, Darkstalker) ...

{table=head]Class 1|Class 2|Feats/ACFs
Wizard 1|Dark Template LA 1|Darkstalker (LoM), Collegiate Wizard (CA), Invisible Spell (City), Point Blank Shot (ACF, UA)[/table]
Unfortunately, this isn't a recipe for "always-on stealth".
Benefit: When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature The Dark Creature template provides a limited form of Hide in Plain Sight:
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect). This only gets you halfway to being able to Hide:

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.
This Hide in Plain Sight covers the second requirement (not being observed); however, your build doesn't offer anything to satisfy the first requirement. Where are you getting cover/concealment from? (The better, Supernatural forms of HiPS, like those of the Assassin and Shadowdancer classes, also remove the cover/concealment requirement.) Without cover/concealment you cannot Hide, and Darkstalker does nothing until you Hide.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Unfortunately, this isn't a recipe for "always-on stealth". The Dark Creature template provides a limited form of Hide in Plain Sight: This only gets you halfway to being able to Hide: This Hide in Plain Sight covers the second requirement (not being observed); however, your build doesn't offer anything to satisfy the first requirement. Where are you getting cover/concealment from? (The better, Supernatural forms of HiPS, like those of the Assassin and Shadowdancer classes, also remove the cover/concealment requirement.) Without cover/concealment you cannot Hide, and Darkstalker does nothing until you Hide.

Dip Warlock for Shadow invocation? Pass on the template for the feat from DotUD that IS the superior version of HiPS? Heck, dip two levels and pick up Devil's Sight while you are at it.

[Gavinfoxx]

The only problem is Rope Trick doesn't work in WLD if the DM has a nasty reading of the rules...

[kulosle]

Well, if you go Artificer//Druid, you could make your own Rope Trick Wands with minimal difficulty by level 7. Heck, you could even go Warforged... then you could Transform and Roll Out! Also, not needing to eat is a boon in WLD, if your GM is a jerk. IIRC, you're basically going to end up making this a D&D version of a Roguelike, which means food and water are normally major concerns.

Just pick up Natural Spell at level 6, and this combo is pretty hard to really mess up...

Yeah this. Oh and if you DM want's to be a prick about whether or not you can be a warforged druid the just worship the druid god that lets druids where metal. That should be fine.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The only problem is Rope Trick doesn't work in WLD if the DM has a nasty reading of the rules...

If that's the case, then HHH and Bags of Holding are screwed as well.

No, this an extradimensional space, it's not extradimensional TRAVEL, which is what WLD prevents.


Yeah this. Oh and if you DM want's to be a prick about whether or not you can be a warforged druid the just worship the druid god that lets druids where metal. That should be fine.

There's also a feat which lets you get rid of the plating. There's also a feat which turns the plating into 'natural' materials. Warforged get a lot of love.

[kulosle]

Dip Warlock for Shadow invocation? Pass on the template for the feat from DotUD that IS the superior version of HiPS? Heck, dip two levels and pick up Devil's Sight while you are at it.

Wait what feat is this? I just flipped through the book and didn't find it. This may be due to it being 12:47 in the morning.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Unfortunately, this isn't a recipe for "always-on stealth". The Dark Creature template provides a limited form of Hide in Plain Sight: This only gets you halfway to being able to Hide: This Hide in Plain Sight covers the second requirement (not being observed); however, your build doesn't offer anything to satisfy the first requirement. Where are you getting cover/concealment from? (The better, Supernatural forms of HiPS, like those of the Assassin and Shadowdancer classes, also remove the cover/concealment requirement.) Without cover/concealment you cannot Hide, and Darkstalker does nothing until you Hide.Whoops, I meant to include Fellmist Robes. That makes it almost always...

[olentu]

Wait what feat is this? I just flipped through the book and didn't find it. This may be due to it being 12:47 in the morning.

Blend into shadows.

[Hyde]

The World's largest dungeon is arguably the worst kind of module that exists. It basically throws the monster manual and says "okay, have fun with that".

I'm pretty sure the stock rules start the party out at level one. if you're looking for a solo run, I'd say nothing less than three for any kind of prep caster or five for pretty much anything else.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Whoops, I meant to include Fellmist Robes. That makes it almost always...

That's the Soul chakra you're talking about there, buddy. I don't see this happening before 15th level without rather extreme cheese. Gonna be quite a long time before THAT opens up for this. Also, you'd need to dump Essentia into it, since it starts off only granting MINOR concealment.

You won't be unlocking that chakra pre-epic if you aren't an Incarnate, or a couple of other Incarnum PrC's. Furthermore, if you aren't an Incarnate, you need to blow a feat to pick up Fellmist Robes.

A one-level dip in Warlock for the Darkness invocation is a hell of a lot cheaper. That way, if you want, you can blow the feat on Blend in the Shadows (DotUD) for *REAL* HiPS.


The World's largest dungeon is arguably the worst kind of module that exists. It basically throws the monster manual and says "okay, have fun with that".

I'm pretty sure the stock rules start the party out at level one. if you're looking for a solo run, I'd say nothing less than three for any kind of prep caster or five for pretty much anything else.

He's talking Gestalt, which can survive from level 1 on in WLD. He just has to treat this like he's RPing a Roguelike for the first few levels.

[Mordokai]

The World's largest dungeon is arguably the worst kind of module that exists. It basically throws the monster manual and says "okay, have fun with that".

Naaaaaaah. I find it very fun to read, though I realize it's much less fun to play. What little me and my friends tried to play in PbP confirms this.

The module can be great fun, but it requires a tremendous amount of work on the DM side. Much more than most people would be willing to invest, is my guess. Also, the module takes itself much too seriously and that is a big mistake, if you ask me. If you would play it as a lighthearted fun or parody or just goofing around, it would be much better, but that once again ties into the "extra work for DM" part. It also has it's fair share amount of mistakes(some really stupid ones at that), but I can look past that.

It cost me 76 euros, or there around. I don't regret the money spent on the book, not a single cent. If it's too much for you to play in one go, as authors intended it and as I imagine it will be case for most people, you can always mine it for ideas. There's a plethora of nice mechanics and monsters and rituals and whatnot in it and I love what I saw in there.

[Gavinfoxx]

The World's largest dungeon is arguably the worst kind of module that exists.

I agree with this... reading the thing, it felt like the designers were morons who intentionally focused the game on the most boring, arbitrary, repetitive, drudge-work possible. All the interesting rooms are HIDDEN, the fights are repetitive, the stories of the NPCs are things I couldn't care less about, it doesn't reward interesting actions or creativity, etc. etc.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

That's the Soul chakra you're talking about there, buddy. I don't see this happening before 15th level without rather extreme cheese. Gonna be quite a long time before THAT opens up for this. Also, you'd need to dump Essentia into it, since it starts off only granting MINOR concealment.

You won't be unlocking that chakra pre-epic if you aren't an Incarnate, or a couple of other Incarnum PrC's. Furthermore, if you aren't an Incarnate, you need to blow a feat to pick up Fellmist Robes.

A one-level dip in Warlock for the Darkness invocation is a hell of a lot cheaper. That way, if you want, you can blow the feat on Blend in the Shadows (DotUD) for *REAL* HiPS.The one problem with Darkness+BitS is that while they don't know exactly where you are, they know that there's a giant moving orb of darkness, and in the middle there's probably a tasty glitterdustable treat! It's great, sure, but it depends on the DM and the module. Not sure how WLD handles it.

As far as Fellmist Robes go, sure, you have to avoid getting right next to enemies and avoid strong winds since you obviously don't have the soul chakra. On first glance, however, I can't find an actual difference in the rules between minor concealment and concealment. Perhaps they just labeled it minor because the miss chance is pretty low without essentia investment? I think the two strategies are comparable. Fellmist Robes costs a feat rather than a level and doesn't alert anyone of your presence. Blend in the Shadows allows you to be right next to someone, is harder to counter in the metagame and has a more solid rules interpretation.