Skills for a Fighter2/Warblade18

[gomipile]

I'm planning out a leveling progression for a human Warblade1/Fighter2/Warblade17 with Intelligence 8.

The main maneuver focus will be on Diamond Mind, so maxed Concentration is a must. What other skills would you go with, when would you put points in them, and why?

The game will start at level 1, so please keep utility at every level in mind. Concentration must be maxed by level 6, when the build will pick up Insightful Strike.

[Suddo]

I hate to just bash your build but why not Warblade 20? What feats are you taking?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Consider using Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) instead of Fighter. Your BAB will be down by one point, but you'll have considerably better skills. You can event trade its Evasion class feature for the Spell Reflection ACF in CM, which a lot later will combine well with Stance of Alacrity and Wall of Blades. In this case, you may want to get your Rogue level at 1st, for higher base skill points at x4, and be sure to grab Able Learner from Races of Destiny.

Suddo: The Warblade stance progression is off, multiclassing for two levels prior to Warblade 4 will fix it.

[Godskook]

Except Warblade 20 gets double-stance, which is the only way to get that feature for longer than 10 rounds per day(Mo9 being the 10 rounds/day route).

[Sucrose]

I personally find Tumble quite useful for getting in large creatures' faces without eating an attack of opportunity (and the DC's low enough that you could eventually pull it off even in full plate, if you want to use the Fighter's armor proficiencies to their fullest). Also, Diplomacy and Intimidate are both very handy for dealing with noncombat situations.

[gomipile]

The reason I'm doing this is to get a level 3 stance at level 6, instead of 2 level 1 stances, which would be dumb.

Feat Rogue looks okay, I might go Feat Rogue 2/Warblade 18.

[Suddo]

But... But... The Capstone. Dual Stances is one of the few capstones worth chasing in standard 3.5 and the class is all around good too (as you've shown by taking 18 levels of it). Yes progression and such might be off a little bit but come on.

[gomipile]

So, to take full advantage of the Warblade capstone, you pretty much have to take the martial stance feat once or twice at high levels, right?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A base class capstone at 20 is very, very seldom reached. If a game goes to 20, chances are it's not over yet and it's got a few more levels to go, which makes a 2-level multiclass irrelevant. A character starting at level one should make decisions that are going to help him for the majority of his career, rather than hoping to maybe get that level 20 capstone.

[gomipile]

A base class capstone at 20 is very, very seldom reached. If a game goes to 20, chances are it's not over yet and it's got a few more levels to go, which makes a 2-level multiclass irrelevant. A character starting at level one should make decisions that are going to help him for the majority of his career, rather than hoping to maybe get that level 20 capstone.

The build(s) I'm working with are playable at every level, and hit their stride by getting their primary tricks at level 6.

I'm also considering going Barbarian 2/Warblade X for pounce, Whirling Frenzy, and Improved Trip(because why not?)

Getting Evasion via Feat Rogue would synergize nicely with Action Before Thought, though Reflex is the least important save, and I might skip that maneuver entirely.

[Draz74]

OP, we need more info for the character concept, beyond "Diamond Mind-focused." What kind of weapon(s) will he favor? Does he use a shield? Is he a mobile swashbuckling type, or a tough stable-footed knight, or a frenzied damage-dealer? Is he supposed to be pretty good at leading and working with a party, or pretty good at pushing people around the battlefield, or focused on lockdown, or dealing massive damage with Ubercharging?

I mean, I can work with as little as "Greatsword. Diamond Mind. No particular specialties otherwise." But I need at least that much (and lack of other specialties is kind of a specialty in and of itself.)

Also, are relatively obscure sourcebooks like Lords of Madness fair game?

EDIT: Oh, I see you're mostly wanting help with Skills. In which case some of my questions don't matter so much. Well, you probably know which Warblade skills suck and which ones don't.

Diplomacy is awesome. Intimidate is pretty good even without focusing on it (although you should at least take the Never Outnumbered skill trick). Tumble -- just enough to move around comfortably -- is a must. Balance should have exactly 5 ranks. Jump should either be maxxed or ignored. If you have any points leftover, spend them on Knowledges or Martial Lore.


A base class capstone at 20 is very, very seldom reached. If a game goes to 20, chances are it's not over yet and it's got a few more levels to go, which makes a 2-level multiclass irrelevant. A character starting at level one should make decisions that are going to help him for the majority of his career, rather than hoping to maybe get that level 20 capstone.
This. Besides, it's not like two feats is exactly a minor boon, either. (Or one feat and Dungeoncrasher, which would be the main reason to go for Fighter rather than Feat Rogue.)


instead of 2 level 1 stances, which would be dumb.
Eh, not really. Level 3 Warblade stances are pretty underwhelming. You might end up taking two Level 1's anyway. There's several that are pretty good.


So, to take full advantage of the Warblade capstone, you pretty much have to take the martial stance feat once or twice at high levels, right?
Again, not really. Just with the normal 4 default stances, you can end up with several stances that you always want on, and one or two that are more situational.

[Suddo]

I'd be more for the 2 Barb or 1 Barb/ 1 Fighter.

[gomipile]

Well, as far as stances, if I went Barb 2/Warblade X, I'd pick up Absolute Steel at CL6, since it stacks with Fast Movement. If I later spent two feats to get Searing Charge, I'd be able to charge 100' straight up without items :D.

Edit: I know, easily exceeded with cheap magic items, but I'm always planning for the eventual prison break since a certain few incidents, lol.

[Sinfonian]

\If I later spent two feats to get Searing Charge, I'd be able to charge 100' straight up without items :D.

Though I'd hope you had an item of Feather Fall for that kind of distance:smallsmile:

[Darrin]

What other skills would you go with, when would you put points in them, and why?


I always try to max out Tumble when I can. Never leave home without it. Put 5 ranks in Balance (so you're not flat-footed while balancing) but after that work on maxing out Jump. Per the Rules Compendium, you can Jump over obstacles when charging, which opens up more tactical options on the battlefield. Also quite useful for Tiger Claw stuff like Sudden Leap and Death From Above.

If you have points left over... put at least 1 rank in Knowledge (history) and Knowledge (local) in case those ever come up, you can at least roll.

If you do take 2 levels of Fighter, put at least 1 rank in Ride, just in case the DM throws anything wacky at you while on horseback, and put a few ranks in Handle Animal. You never know when throwing a bunch of mules (8 GP each, large creature) or a trained monkey at something could come in handy. Also consider swapping Tower Shield proficiency for Extreme Shield proficiency, per Races of Stone.


The reason I'm doing this is to get a level 3 stance at level 6, instead of 2 level 1 stances, which would be dumb.


You have to ask yourself is that 3rd level stance really worth it? Most of them aren't, since you're going to be spending maybe 95% of your time in a 1st-level stance, either Punishing Stance or Leading the Charge. Hunter's Sense can also be quite useful.

3rd level Warblade stances:

Pearl of Black Doubt: Are you optimizing for a high AC? No? Stick with Punishing Stance, since you have infinitely high AC vs enemies that are dead.

Absolute Steel Stance: Buy some Boots of Striding and Springing instead.

Crushing Weight of the Mountain: Is your build focused on grappling? No? Useless, then.

Roots of the Mountain: How often do enemies bother to bull rush/trip/grapple/tumble against you? Never? Also, it ends if you move more than 5', eating up your swift actions to re-enter a stance.

Leaping Dragon Stance: Can be very nifty, particularly with Sudden Leap, but you can get the same ability via Leap of the Heavens (which still works while you're in your other stances). Unless your build is particularly jump-focused, skip it.

Wolverine Stance: Nearly worthless.

Tactics of the Wolf: Usefulness depends a great deal on how often your party uses flanking. Damage scales up as your IL increases, which is nice, but its useless without a flanker.


So, to take full advantage of the Warblade capstone, you pretty much have to take the martial stance feat once or twice at high levels, right?

Depends on which stances you want to get. There's not much point in spending a feat on a stance you're hardly ever going to use. Most of the time, you're going to be in Punishing Stance. There are a few utility stances that may get some use (Hunter's Sense, Hearing the Air), but up until you get Stance of Alacrity, odds are good you'll be spending most of your time in Punishing Stance.



I'm also considering going Barbarian 2/Warblade X for pounce, Whirling Frenzy, and Improved Trip(because why not?)


Very solid build, and if you're fairly sure the campaign won't spend much time at level 20+, you won't miss the Warblade capstone so much. It's a bit ironic, though, since the Barb 2 lets you get a 3rd level stance, but on a Pouncing Warblade build, you really *need* both Leading the Charge and Punishing Stance to start with.

[Godskook]

A base class capstone at 20 is very, very seldom reached. If a game goes to 20, chances are it's not over yet and it's got a few more levels to go, which makes a 2-level multiclass irrelevant. A character starting at level one should make decisions that are going to help him for the majority of his career, rather than hoping to maybe get that level 20 capstone.

Warblade 20 is perfectly fine at level 1, level 2, level 3, and so on. Its *NEVER* a bad choice to take more Warblade levels on a Warblade build. Maybe it isn't optimal for particular builds, but for more generic concepts, it should honestly be considered the default to the point where you gotta justify not doing it. And sure, taking 2 levels elsewhere syncs your stance progression up, but I doubt you can point to a stance* that's worth delaying your maneuver choices by 2 levels and reducing your IL by 1(delaying access to higher level maneuvers). Especially when Martial Stance exists, and becomes available at exactly the same time that you'd be able to learn those stances with the 2 level delay warblade.

*Stance of Alacrity might be the one major exception there, but even then, without doublestance, there's a lot of times where you'd rather use a stance that actually helped deal damage.

[Person_Man]

Intelligence 8 Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)? So most of your Warblade class abilities (various X to Y bonuses for Int) will be worthless, you're avoiding all maneuvers with a Saving Throw (also Int based), and you'll be limited to just 3 Skill points per level, and just 4 Skill points at first level (assuming that it's Fighter). That doesn't really make much sense.


What are you overall attributes, and can they be modified?

[Draz74]

Eh, low-INT Warblade is definitely missing out on some fun minor perks, but it's still perfectly viable.


you're avoiding all maneuvers with a Saving Throw (also Int based),

:smallconfused:

Most Warblades don't bother with any maneuvers with Saving Throws anyway, other than Swooping Dragon Strike, where the DC is your Jump result.
No maneuvers have INT-based DCs. All Warblade disciplines use STR to determine save DCs.


EDIT: Darrin's mostly got the stance analysis spot-on, although I don't value Punishing Stance as highly as he does at higher levels.

[Person_Man]

Eh, low-INT Warblade is definitely missing out on some fun minor perks, but it's still perfectly viable.

:smallconfused:

Most Warblades don't bother with any maneuvers with Saving Throws anyway, other than Swooping Dragon Strike, where the DC is your Jump result.
No maneuvers have INT-based DCs. All Warblade disciplines use STR to determine save DCs.


Oh, I certainly concede that the Warblade is viable (especially at low levels) with low Int, because the chassis of maneuvers and stances are so good.

But a Warblade gains their Intelligence bonus Reflex Saves, on rolls made to confirm critical hits, on melee damage rolls against flat-footed or flanked opponents, on any check made to oppose an enemy's bull rush, disarm, feint, overrun, sunder, or trip attempt, and on melee attack rolls and melee damage rolls made whenever you make an attack of opportunity. That's nothing to sneeze at.

I'm just suggesting that given the above and his desire to use Skills, if his Wisdom or Charisma are 12 or higher, he should probably put them in Int instead. And if his attributes in general are really that low, he might want to look at classes that rely attributes even less, such as a Totemist or Incarnate.

[Draz74]

Yep, that's fair.