Does Xykon understand power?

[Hallavast]

Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html)

The Spider (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzXsqoJhtE)

Considering our new understanding of those with whom he surrounds himself, Does Xykon understand the way this game is played?

:smallsmile:

[Chess Tyrant]

I've always been of the opinion that his philosophy works great against anything weaker than him, but that it's likely to get him curbstomped going up against anything with more power than he wields.* The issue is, he's a level 28+ lich sorcerer with all the magic items he could ask for, so very few things in the world actually have more power than him.

Furthermore, it means he doesn't understand any of the subtleties of ruling people or managing a force of allies who you couldn't wipe out yourself if they turned on you, which serves to limit the potential power Team Evil can acquire.

*Or power in a form he can't compete against, like Soon Kim's ghost.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I don't think we can accurately say at this point. We've caught a glimpse of RC's inner workings and secret machinations. All we have seen of Xykon's activities in this sense was the trip to the Oracle (from what we know, he did not get any help there) and his foretress. What other secrets he holds are not clear, otherwise they wouldn't be secrets. He also says a few strips earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) that he uses any means at his disposal if he feels the need to, such as being confronted an enemy who is challenging his rep. I doubt Xykon would completly ignore secrets and sabotage and the like simply because its not direct and flashy. I doubt he will have the same level of secrets and plans as RC has displayed but as SOD shows

he has shown enough guille and cunning to protect himself from Right Eye's dagger without either knowing so he can gaurentee RC's loyalty, which is a form of power.

Oh course, I could be wrong, but that is yet to be seen.

[Grinner]

I think Xykon just has a well-placed confidence in his own skills. And yeah, he also has a keen understanding of the difference between an augmented 10th level caster and a 20th level caster.

[Idhan]

Different mechanics.

OotS is a D&D setting. People with extremely high levels, like Xykon, often just have vast amounts of objective power regardless of their political or social position. What Xykon is saying is literally tautological (and not, IMHO, all that insightful), but insofar as it means anything beyond that, it must refer all forms of power -- magical power, physical power, political power, and every other form of power (in contrast to Vaarsuvius's obsessive focus on arcane power).

AGoT is a low fantasy setting. Great warriors like Gregor Clegane and people with (fairly minor) supernatural powers like Melisande are more powerful than most, regardless of their social or political position, but ultimately even the strongest knight couldn't stand up single-handedly to the sort of organized political authority that Varys is talking about. Political power is the power of which Varys speaks, because physical power is not vastly different between humans, and magical power is, at that point in ASoIaF, not a very potent force (at least as far as Varys knows).

UPDATE: Although Xykon's lecture actually might exclude the sort of political power that Varys refers to, since he seems to be excluding power that can be lost and gained quickly, "that you put on or take off like a jacket," so Xykon would probably say that Varys refers to it is actually not real power at all, not just that it is only one of many forms of power as I originally wrote.

[Super_slash2]

I haven't read that serious but from the trailer you linked, that man is talking about political power and the ability to rule and be loved by others. In this sense, power is ephemeral because you cannot hold on to it so easily when all it takes is one dude to end your reign. Absolute political power generally requires more effort to make sure noone would think of challenging you and that's what that person in the trailer means.

Xykon is talking more about general capabilities of one person and more importantly, about a mindset. To him, power is not something that comes from outside, it comes from within. The ability to kill when you need to kill, listen when you need to listen, sabotage when you need to sabotage is what makes you powerful and not a strict adherence to what you THINK will make you stronger. But the ability to see solutions to problems and then simply do them. When he needed to blast people to death he did so. When he needed to catch an invisible person he did so.

It's a combination of the ability to do things coupled with the mental fortitude to follow through. In fact, this is what happened to Red Cloak he was always capable of turning against Xykon. But NOW? He's actually doing it. In this sense, moreso than his new level, he has increased his power : he is not curtailing his actions based on what he thinks he must or mustn't do but what is actually needed to be done. Well, so far as he thinks it must be done, people aren't generally perfect judges of what is and isn't needed.

[Quild]

Xykon doesn't agree with the "Power is nothing without control" thing. He thinks power grants control. You can see better his way of thinking there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html). Also I believe he explain it too in Start of Darkness while fighting Eugene's master.

It remains me two (also evil) characters in japanese comics.
Younger Toguro in Yuyu Hakusho, and Uvoguine in Hunter X Hunter (both comics have the same author). They are always eventually defeated, but man, they rocks :x.

[Fitzclowningham]

I've often wondered the same thing. He talks a good game, and generally performs well, but he doesn't seem to have any form of Plan B. Against Soon, who was resistant to his evocations, he practically got himself killed.
Even more especially, against the ancient Silver Dragon with its high SR, he was totally useless. Does he anticipate never having to deal with high-SR creatures?

Power that only works sometimes isn't worth all that much, and given his philosophy, I'm stunned that Xykon has this glaring weakness.

[Mephit]

Power that only works sometimes isn't worth all that much, and given his philosophy, I'm stunned that Xykon has this glaring weakness.

He -is- a sorcerer after all. :smallwink:

[Leecros]

Xykon understands one form of power, however i would also say that he's ignorant to other forms.

[JCarter426]

Power that only works sometimes isn't worth all that much, and given his philosophy, I'm stunned that Xykon has this glaring weakness.
That doesn't mean his philosophy's wrong, though - it just means he isn't following it well enough. And that just goes back to the issue that there really are few entities more powerful than he is. It isn't necessary, perhaps not even possible, for him to deal with all his weaknesses.

I also think these philosophies are dependent on their settings. But the two philosophies aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. In the OOTS world, power exists in a pure, manifest form. The gods have it. Xykon has it. V had it, and lost it - and that's what made it a trick.

[Dr. Strangelove]

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/35316.html

[Johel]

I've always been of the opinion that his philosophy works great against anything weaker than him, but that it's likely to get him curbstomped going up against anything with more power than he wields.* The issue is, he's a level 28+ lich sorcerer with all the magic items he could ask for, so very few things in the world actually have more power than him.

Furthermore, it means he doesn't understand any of the subtleties of ruling people or managing a force of allies who you couldn't wipe out yourself if they turned on you, which serves to limit the potential power Team Evil can acquire.

*Or power in a form he can't compete against, like Soon Kim's ghost.

Well, that's exactly the point of his theory, though :

Either you are powerfull enough to endure your opponent's first set of tricks.
Which means it doesn't matter against what you are up to, you will endure and survive long enough to back off and retreat if needed.

Or you aren't powerful at all.
Just a glass canon who needs to be lucky enough to fire first or to use a complex sneaky plan to set the odds in his favor.
But who will eventually get toasted if caught off guard.

He get nuanced by acknowledging that it doesn't matter what field your power apply to.
It just matter that you are not restricted to that single field.

[veti]

You could see it as the difference between Lawful and Chaotic Evil.

Lawful alignments believe in structure and relationships. Redcloak has always seen himself as, first and foremost, part of the goblin nation/liberation movement and the cult of the Dark One. On his own he's moderately powerful, but by virtue of his position in those organisations, his power is amplified considerably.

Chaotic alignments believe in self-sufficiency. Xykon doesn't want to depend on anything that he personally doesn't control by brute strength. Played correctly, that's a source of power in itself, but it also requires vastly greater power to sustain it, because there's no reliable support.

Whether Xykon understands the Lawful version of "power" is, I'd say, an open question at this point. Some key plot points hinge on it - for instance, whether or not he's taken in by Redcloak's ruses, which is something we're not going to find out for a long while yet.

[SpaceBadger]

Even more especially, against the ancient Silver Dragon with its high SR, he was totally useless. Does he anticipate never having to deal with high-SR creatures?


Question about the above:
I keep seeing references to a fight against an ancient Silver Dragon, but I don't remember that from anything I have read. What book is that from?

[Quild]

Question about the above:
I keep seeing references to a fight against an ancient Silver Dragon, but I don't remember that from anything I have read. What book is that from?

I remember the fight against this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) dragon was in the books only. A few strips between #194 and #195.

[Mephit]

SoD spoilers:
In his fight with Dorukan, Xykon quite eloquently explains how he feels about tactics, strategy, and scheming. He accepts that he's not smart enough (His INT was probably a dump stat) to outwit wizards and the like, but simply makes up for it with brute force, and style. (Style can slide in a pinch)

Xykon recognizes that weakness, but thinks he's covered it by being pretty much undefeatable in every other aspect.

He's probably wrong, but if he actually was an unstoppable, hyperintelligent force, the adventures of the OotS would've probably been a lot shorter.

[SpaceBadger]

I remember the fight against this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) dragon was in the books only. A few strips between #194 and #195.

Ohhhh! THAT (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) dragon! Thanks!

[Tev]

He talks a good game, and generally performs well, but he doesn't seem to have any form of Plan B. Against Soon, who was resistant to his evocations, he practically got himself killed.
Actually, he had plan B. Phylactery.
It couldn't be made more obvious that he realized how screwed he is at the moment Soon revealed his knowledge of Xykon's "plan B"

Which also answers this:

Xykon recognizes that weakness, but thinks he's covered it by being pretty much undefeatable in every other aspect.

He's probably wrong, but if he actually was an unstoppable, hyperintelligent force, the adventures of the OotS would've probably been a lot shorter.
Xykon might be overconfident when trusting to his ability to regenerate from phylactery, but he definitely thinks about defeat as a possible option. If not, why would he then spent 2 weeks building that fortress for phylactery?

Regarding fake phylactery - imho he can't know whether it's real or not, and he knows that, so he doesn't (for now?) bother with checking it.



In conclusion - I think Xykon is very smart, he just disguises behind dumb & impatient appearance to make enemies underestimate his raw power & capability of figuring out & doing anything to win. (see his duels vs. "smart" wizards in SoD)
Also, it's way more fun.

[King of Nowhere]

Does anyone understands power? Or anything at all, for that matter?
No one fully understands power, but Xykon has quite a good grasp on it. At least from his perspective, that of one of the more powerful beings on the planet. His phylosophy would work less well for someone lower level.
But one thing imo is doing rigth, is fighting on his field instead of trying to compensate. he knows he's bad at strategy and politics; if he tried to figth on those terms, he would lose. so he avoid them completely. focus on your strength and so on. he's just lucky that he's powerful enough to pull it out.

[BlackestOfMages]

Goes xykon understand the way the game from game of thrones is played? no.

Is he playing that game? also no.

The difference between the two is of the setting, however, means that's pretty irelevant. Power is based upon the environment it's in, and who and what can influence whom and what, and that's the kicker here.

In GoT, Varys power and control is effective because noone can happily let everything they know known and e comfortable sitting around. everyone is human, and that puts everyone equal there, as such power comes from control of people.

In OoTS, due to the DnD nature, that dosen't apply. In OoTS, there are people who can happily stare down and laugh off armies, people to whon - not to sound superior - other peopels actions mean next to nothing in the long run. This comes in at around level 11. Xykon, by comaprison, could very, very happily walk through an army stroking them and - due to being an epic lich - none of them would move again. Political power does nothing to him, as he could eaisly destroy most countries alone, without redcloak.

There's also the fact that Xykon's lack of concern for redcloak is very justified. If RC slips up even a little bit and lets on about the control idea he has, he will stop existing in a matter of seconds.

there's also goals to consider. Xykon ha next to no intention to rule other than to say he is. If he ever does take over the world, he'll probably go straight for looking for something else to do.

So, in conclusion, comparing the relationship between Xykon's power and Varys's power is like comparing that between a lion (or bigger. maybe dragon) and an ant collony.

[Anarion]

Xykon doesn't agree with the "Power is nothing without control" thing. He thinks power grants control. You can see better his way of thinking there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html). Also I believe he explain it too in Start of Darkness while fighting Eugene's master.


In the interest of stopping the spread of misinformation, Xykon is not fighting Eugene's master when he gives that explanation. You should refrain from posting details of the comics if you haven't read them. He's actually fightingDorukon.


Ohhhh! THAT (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) dragon! Thanks!

It's first visible in the main comic in #195 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) outside the door of the study. The fight itself shows up in No Cure for the Paladin Blues, which I haven't read, but I've read ever other book and never seen it, so process of elimination. :smallbiggrin:


Now, as for the actual topic. Xykon has espoused two major points in his philosophy, one from SoD and one from the strip with invisible V. I'm just going to talk about SoD freely here, so if you want no spoilers at all, I'll sum up at the end.
In his fight against Dorukon, Xykon talks about power, but what he's really talking about is the direct application of force. He uses energy drain over and over until Dorukon is dead and Dorukon, despite all his tricks, didn't have enough magic to overcome Xykon before that happened. That kind of power has been used often and effectively throughout real history and it works. Enough cannonballs will bring down any wall and enough soldiers on the field wins any battle.

In his fight against V, Xykon takes a broader approach. He says "power equals power" by which he means that he defines power as whatever action or ability would be most effective given the circumstances. He also says that it isn't something you can put on or take off, but he doesn't really mean that because it's an impossible definition. What he means is that it shouldn't have an Achilles heal. He would probably take issue with Superman due to the kryptonite issues for example. I actually think he would not have a problem with the Varys style political power because it's set up so carefully that unraveling everything is actually pretty difficult.

Putting that together, Xykon's philosophy of power seems to be about finding the most effective thing for each situation and hammering it home. He dislikes being overly tricky and his first choice is to go with the most obvious solution to a problem and strengthen that solution until it works. Moreover, because he picks up obvious solutions, he tends to be good at beating opponents who try to be tricky because they often fail to account for a few details (e.g. Master Fyron getting bludgeoned to death with is own Wizzy award or V failing to account for Xykon's racial listen modifier).

So, now that we've got something in place, let's address the thread question by asking where Xykon's approach might fall short. I can see him failing in two situations
1. He can be beaten at his own game. Because preparation and planning do grant power, an opponent of similar caliber to Xykon who plans ahead could win.
2. If the rules of the game change mid-way. No I don't mean switching off of D&D rules, I mean someone using a tactic or strategy that requires a totally different response than a previous tactic or strategy. Xykon has a limited numbers of spells and magic items and he has protected himself against the most common forms of assault in the OoTS world. If he's faced with an opponent that presents more variety than he's capable of handling, he could find himself easily defeated.

Summary for those who don't want to know Xykon's SoD philosophy. Xykon likes to find the best clear solution to a problem and hammer on it until the problem is solved because he believes that any problem with eventually give way. This does, however, leave him open to being beaten at his own game or to being defeated by some opponent that can effectively change up its tactics to require totally different responses.

[BlackestOfMages]

Summary for those who don't want to know Xykon's SoD philosophy. Xykon likes to find the best clear solution to a problem and hammer on it until the problem is solved because he believes that any problem with eventually give way. This does, however, leave him open to being beaten at his own game or to being defeated by some opponent that can effectively change up its tactics to require totally different responses.

though thats the downside to any form of power and control, or existance in general. Varys' control suffers the threat just as much; if someone accesses and takes control of his information web, or sets up a more efficient one, he'd find his control - and the pwer it grants - gone.

[StyxMotors]

As far as I can tell, Xykon is a quintessential Sorcerer. As an internet meme has declared (can't remember where I first saw it), the motto of a Sorcerer is "I *am* the boomstick." And Xykon hates his methodological rivals, the Wizards.

This is clear all throughout SoD, but you can see it in 657 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html), when X introduces his screed to V by saying: "You seem to have an interest in power, so let me educate you a little while I search for you. It's the sort of thing I like to do sometimes, especially for learned wizards such as yourself."

Sorcerers are boomsticks - their power is innate and within; wizards are scholars or as another article about wizards puts it (please help if you know the source), Wizards are Batman - they need to be 'crazy prepared' and by doing so, they can be versatile and unstoppable.

So, strictly speaking, Xykon isn't "right" about power, he's expressing a very strong POV, that of the innately powerful sorcerer. And Wizards who attempt to fight sorcerers like sorcerers are foolish.

[For you Batmanites, compare the first vs. second fights of Batman vs. the Mutant gang leader in Miller's Dark Knight Returns]