(PFS) Fighter/Rogue Reach Build

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I haven't played a polearm fighter in years, and after watching a few sweet Chinese films with cool spear fighting, i got inspired.

I figured I'd throw in some rogue for skill points, but also increased damage due to more flanking and sneak attack chances that polearms give. I am planning this for potential Pathfinder Society play, so max level is 12.

Human, Fighter 6/Rogue 6

STR: 14 (level 4,8,12, bonuses here, 17)
DEX: 14 (16)
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

1Power Attack
1 Combat Reflexes
3 Imp. Unarmed Strike
5 Combat Expertise
7 Gang Up
9 Iron Will
11 Greater Trip

FIGHTER FEATS
1 Furious Focus
2 (L3) Cleave
4 (L7) Weapon Specialization
6 (L11) Cleaving Finish

ROGUE TALENTS
2 (L4) Weapon Focus
4 (L8) Imp. Trip
6 (L12) ???

So the plan is to pick up a glaive or glaive-guisarme and a gauntlet until level 3 at which point Imp. Unarmed Strike comes into play. I've been told that using a gauntlet would make AoO's impossible with a polearm until my next turn. Imp. unarmed strikes would fix that.

Everything else is self explanatory: high damaging, trip producing combatant. Gang Up seemed nice for additional flanking opportunities.

Im sure someone will say something about a 14 starting strength for a STR based character. However, starting with 16 STR gives me a +1 to hit and damage... Id prefer 16 DEX and steel lamellar ( ultimate combat).

I see this character as a tactical, thoughtful fighter with many options in combat. Due to his rogue levels, he is also useful outside of combat.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance to all!

[JellyPooga]

I've been considering a similar style of character myself recently.

1)Weapon: Grab yourself a Fauchard as your weapon of choice. It's an exotic weapon with decent damage, high crit range, reach and trip. Can't do much tripping with a Glaive or Glaive-Guisarme because they're not Trip weapons (so your only tripping will be unarmed).

2)Race: This works best as a multiclass build, so Half Elf is your friend. The Alternative Racial Feature "Ancestral Arms" gets you Ex.Weap.Prof for the Fauchard and Multitalented means you don't have to worry about Favoured Classes too much.

3)Stats: Ditch the Con score. Your whole schtick relies on not letting your enemies get near you, so if you need more HP you're doing it wrong. Str is your best friend for this build; 'roid it up! Int is a bit of a neccesary evil, but you might want some Wis (see below), so I suggest something that looks like:

Str: 16(+2 Racial)=18
Dex: 15
Con: 10
Int: 13
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

Bump Dex up to 16 at lvl.4, then pump Str at lvl.8 and lvl.12.

4)Class: This build needs more Monk. 2 levels of Monk gives you (better-than-)Improved Unarmed Strike and 2 bonus feats as well as some other goodies, some of which you'll use (Base Save boost) and some of which you probably won't (Unarmoured AC bonus). Check out the multitude of Monk ACF's too...there's bound to be one that suits the build; Maneuver Master comes to mind.

Over your 12 levels, I'd probably peg it at something like:
Polearm Master Fighter (6) / Swashbuckler Rogue (4) / Maneuver Master Monk (2)

That should net you 4 Bonus Combat Feats from Fighter, 2 from Rogue (Combat Trick twice) and 2 Bonus Feats from Monk. Add those to your normal feats and you've got a grand total of 14 Feats to play with.
Gang Up is a bit terrible unless you're going up against lots of very big things; if you've got 2 other guys attacking something in melee, you've probably got a flank on it anyway.
Iron Will is probably not neccesary because of the Monk levels.
Get Cleave, Great Cleave, Cleaving Finish and Improved Cleaving Finish as soon as you can; you whole strategy should revolve around attacking in your opponents turn and these (along with Combat Reflexes) will help you do it. Tripping Strike is also a feat you should look at picking up because of your high threat range.

Anyways, that's just a few thoughts for you to mull on. Hope it helps.

[Krazzman]

The scout archetype of the rogue could be great for this. (I'm AFB so can't really say if the two rogue archetypes are compatible, but his advice is good so far).

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

As far as weapons go: Horse Chopper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/horsechopper)
not exotic. also, even if I couldnt use it, I would just use a guisarme. an exotic weapon proficiency just isn't worth it in my opinion.

monk is a good idea, though for some reason I have issues with monk thematically. It is so ingrained, that when doing a character that it would fit into (like this one) I skip over it somehow. good catch.

lowered CON score... I can't, sorry. even an archer ought to have 12 in my opinion, let alone a frontliner.

[JellyPooga]

As far as weapons go: Horse Chopper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/horsechopper)
not exotic. also, even if I couldnt use it, I would just use a guisarme. an exotic weapon proficiency just isn't worth it in my opinion.

Guisarme works, if you don't want to burn the feat on something that looks a little tastier. It's got that plaguey 2d4 damage on a 2-H weapon though. Horsechopper is obviously subject to DM approval, but is definitely worthy for the build.
Normally I agree with you regarding Exotic Weapons, but I make an exception with the Fauchard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons#exotic-two-handed) for this particular build. The high crit threat combined with high damage makes it very tasty. Grab a Keen version and virtually every hit is a critical threat!
Add the fact that you've pretty much got Feats coming out of your ears on this one and burning a feat to have a decent and unusual weapon doesn't look so bad.


monk is a good idea, though for some reason I have issues with monk thematically. It is so ingrained, that when doing a character that it would fit into (like this one) I skip over it somehow. good catch.

Personally, with the Maneuver Master Monk ACF and Polearm Master Fighter ACF, I think it's probably worth dropping the Rogue levels altogether and going something like Fighter (10) / Monk (2)...you lose less BAB, have +4 to hit with readied attacks and AoO with polearms combining Steadfast Pike and Polearm Training and you also get Flexible Flanker (which is probably better than Gang Up for getting flanks, IMO).

An important thing to remember is that you're only dipping Monk, so don't worry too much about "losing" abilities for wearing armour. Interestingly enough, you won't lose Flurry of Maneuvers (though it may be intended that you do) for wearing armour. I'd still suggest wearing Light Armour over something heavier, 'cos you've the Dex to back it and the build relies somewhat on being able to shift around the battlefield (and you don't lose Evasion!).


lowered CON score... I can't, sorry. even an archer ought to have 12 in my opinion, let alone a frontliner.

Meh, 'horses for courses', I suppose. The 12 stat is pretty much a floater and Wisdom isn't doing this build many favours, so stick it in Con. You're rocking out on mostly d10 HD anyway, so I don't think HP are going to be too much of a problem. I rarely put much in Con for any of my characters, so I'm slightly biased, but I certainly wouldn't bother going higher than 12 for this build...it's just not neccesary and using point-buy means prioritising; Con just ain't that high up the list.

Feats
With a Human Fighter (10)/Monk (2) build, I'd recommend something like:

1(Fig): Ex.Weapon.Prof(Fauchard), Power Attack, Cleave
2(Mon): Improved Trip
3(Mon): Combat Reflexes, Cleaving Finish
4(Fig): Combat Expertise
5(Fig): Great Cleave
6(Fig): Fury's Fall
7(Fig): Greater Trip
8(Fig): Improved Cleaving Finish
9(Fig): Lunge
10(Fig): Tripping Strike
11(Fig): Disruptive
12(Fig): Spellbreaker

Pretty much your whole tactic book consists of:
5ft step
Ready Action: Attack the second guy to come into reach (the first guy, you AoO Trip, when the second guy approaches, you Cleave the first guy).

There could be an argument for aiming for the Combat Patrol feat, but the prereq of Mobility is an extra 2 feats (unless you take 6 levels of Monk, in which case, it's one bonus feat). If you do get Combat Patrol up, though, you can have a pretty scary threat area combined with Lunge.

[JadePhoenix]

As far as weapons go: Horse Chopper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/horsechopper)
not exotic. also, even if I couldnt use it, I would just use a guisarme. an exotic weapon proficiency just isn't worth it in my opinion.


http://fanpitstop.comlu.com/sanosuke/images/sano-n-zanbatou-big.png

Zanza called, he wants his sword back :smallwink:

[Blyte]

the phalanx fighter archetype is worth taking a look at as well.

I am playin in a game with one, and he took the trip line, coupled with the feat that gives free trips with the first attack you make while power attacking. I think it's called felling smash or something.. pretty neato feat.. taking fury's fall, the one that let's you add your dex to cmb with trips is pretty sound as well.

[Cieyrin]

There could be an argument for aiming for the Combat Patrol feat, but the prereq of Mobility is an extra 2 feats (unless you take 6 levels of Monk, in which case, it's one bonus feat). If you do get Combat Patrol up, though, you can have a pretty scary threat area combined with Lunge.

The only issue I have with Combat Patrol and Lunge is they don't work together, as Lunge only lasts till the end of your turn, whereas Combat Patrol is meant to go off when it isn't your turn. Still work nice together, though, so that you can have extended reach a good amount of the time.

[JellyPooga]

The only issue I have with Combat Patrol and Lunge is they don't work together, as Lunge only lasts till the end of your turn, whereas Combat Patrol is meant to go off when it isn't your turn. Still work nice together, though, so that you can have extended reach a good amount of the time.

Yeah, they don't stack (I probably should have clarified that), but it does mean that whether you're attacking on your turn or setting up for an AoO-bonanza, you're getting an extended threatened area.

Unarmed Strike+Reach Weapon+Lunge = 15ft threatened area
US+Reach Weapon+Combat Patrol (BAB +5) = 15ft threatened area
- [either of the above] enlarged = 25ft
US+Reach Weapon+Combat Patrol (BAB +10) = 20ft
- enlarged = 30ft

Pretty tasty...

[Blyte]

Feats
With a Human Fighter (10)/Monk (2) build, I'd recommend something like:

1(Fig): Ex.Weapon.Prof(Fauchard), Power Attack, Cleave
2(Mon): Improved Trip
3(Mon): Combat Reflexes, Cleaving Finish
4(Fig): Combat Expertise
5(Fig): Great Cleave
6(Fig): Fury's Fall
7(Fig): Greater Trip
8(Fig): Improved Cleaving Finish
9(Fig): Lunge
10(Fig): Tripping Strike
11(Fig): Disruptive
12(Fig): Spellbreaker

.

I totally agree with this but I would try to incorporate felling smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/felling-smash-combat)

AND of course

Improved critical to further compliment your tripping strike + fauchard synergy.

also

this build might benifit from the brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/brawler) archetype.. it would really help bolster your potency in the 5ft range, making you one bad hombre all around.

[JellyPooga]

I totally agree with this but I would try to incorporate felling smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/felling-smash-combat)

AND of course

Improved critical to further compliment your tripping strike + fauchard synergy.

also

this build might benifit from the brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/brawler) archetype.. it would really help bolster your potency in the 5ft range, making you one bad hombre all around.

Felling Smash is potentially worthwhile, but doesn't synergise with Tripping Strike (you can't trip a prone target) and only triggers specifically on an Attack action.

Improved Critical is largely a wasted Feat; just get a Keen weapon.

Brawler could be handy for helping out the 5ft range, but Polearm Master let's you "shift grip" to lose the reach if you really need to use the Polearm up close and also gives better bonuses on AoO and readied actions with the main weapon this build will use. Having the Unarmed Strike is a handy little feature to grab on top of the Saves and Bonus feats gained from taking Monk levels, but the idea is not to let your opponent get that close in the first place.

[Blyte]

Felling Smash is potentially worthwhile, but doesn't synergise with Tripping Strike (you can't trip a prone target) and only triggers specifically on an Attack action.

Improved Critical is largely a wasted Feat; just get a Keen weapon.

Brawler could be handy for helping out the 5ft range, but Polearm Master let's you "shift grip" to lose the reach if you really need to use the Polearm up close and also gives better bonuses on AoO and readied actions with the main weapon this build will use. Having the Unarmed Strike is a handy little feature to grab on top of the Saves and Bonus feats gained from taking Monk levels, but the idea is not to let your opponent get that close in the first place.

1. Felling Smash - agreed, in a lower lvl game it's a good choice, but once tripping strike + wide critical threat range becomes available it loses its' utility. edit: actually this is still a sweet power (as a pole arm master) since you can make your held attack action (which the archetype specializes in) a felling smash rather than a trip, netting you two attacks instead of one with your held action.

2. Improved Critical - I agree keening the fauchard is a good alternative, if you aren't strapped for penetrating DR. With a 2hand build typically I don't worry too much about DR pen but it's nice having that extra +1 when you are up against some outsider with a DR10+ that extra +1 would qualify you to pierce.

3. Brawler is the superior choice in my opinion. Round 1 close base to base with the caster, and totally shut them down with menacing presence coupled with disruptive. Meanwhile take advantage of AoOs on the caster's muscle trying to save him, and focus attacks on targets other than caster because the caster is totally on ice with this archetype+feat selections. If anything else manages to get base to base with you, that you don't want, just play ring around the caster. You can even drag/reposition the caster better with the brawler archetype, potentially dragging him into another caster for you to lock down. Pole arm trip build + brawler lock down is the ultimate melee battlefield controller. Also unless you are gonna have someone continually give you Freedom of Movement, being someone who is totally focused on a pole arm who gets grabbed really stinks. My DM used to love grabbing my barbarians until I opted to use scimitars two handed rather than a falchion. That's fine.. grab me.. I'll still beat you with that scimitar 1 handed! With brawler, you get to mug the giant squid or chuul that just molested you.

4. Great Cleave + Improved Cleaving finish look really nice on paper, but unless your DM likes throwing hordes of scrubs at you (which this build handles handily minus those feats) they are a bit of an overkill. -- alternatives might include vicious stomp, combat patrol, improved critical (to get that extra +1 enhancement bonus that will help penetrate DR), or some style feats to go more with the spirit of the Original Poster.. there are a few that would work well.

5. Have you considered attempting a pole arm wielding flowing monk? It might make for an interesting alternative.

[Caremon]

As an aside, with this build, you loose Flurry of Blows, when you wear Armor.

[Xerxus]

A common misconception is that only trip weapons can trip in Pathfinder.

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom?Combat-Maneuvers-and-Weapon-Special-Features

[Blyte]

As an aside, with this build, you loose Flurry of Blows, when you wear Armor.

wow, I didn't even remember this post.

thanks for the resurrect.

I don't believe the Sohei Monk loses FoB with armor, however.

And always acting in a surprise round with an initiative bonus is something very nice for a tank to have.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I suggest sticking to Fighter, or at most only dipping a 2nd class. Lore Warden is probably the best Fighter archetype all around. Brawler and some others are cool, but will not be able to use gloves of dueling due to technicality, which is a serious black mark in my opinion. But, PFS is only up to level 12, maybe you don't care about that.

For a straight-classed Fighter, here is my list of suggested feats, with min. level they can be acquired in (), if applicable. Keep in mind every 4th Fighter level you can swap a low level feat for new higher level one. You can use this to gain 2 critical feats at 4th, 8th, and/or 12th level to accelerate the process, as the good feats all seem to have similar level requirements and come in "clumps".

Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise [only because it's a feat tax for trip feats]
Improved Trip
Greater Trip (6+)
Fury's Fall (??)
Lunge (6+)
Cornugon Smash (6+)
Pin Down (11+)
Furious Focus [only because it's a feat tax for...]
Dreadful Carnage (11+)
Dazing Assault (12+)

For other feats... Whirlwind Attack has a painful pre-req list and isn't good on its own, but combined with Lunge and Dazing Assault can actually be a pretty nice martial area of effect. Weapon Focus/Spec. are ok.... You could go for other maneuver feats. If you have Cha 13, Eldritch Heritage is a good line of feats for anyone.