[PF] Weird Idea: Barbarian/Monk? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Arbane

2012-02-28, 05:13 PM

Just a random character idea I had: Using the fact that the Martial Artist archetype doesn't have to be Lawful to make a Barbarian/Monk barehanded wrecking machine.

Then I noticed that a level 5 Martial Artist gets immunity to Fatigue... :smallbiggrin:

Any suggestions for how to make this work at least as well as straight "Barbarian with big sword"?

KutuluKultist

2012-02-28, 06:16 PM

ArcGygas

2012-02-28, 06:39 PM

I had a similar idea a while back. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233810) is that thread.

You focus on Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity. Your unarmed strikes now deal 2xStr on the first attack in a round, and all others do 1.5xStr. For extra hilarity, take the Two-Weapon Fighting tree and do 1.5xStr with off-hand attacks (which are not only light, but get full strength from having Monk levels).

You also take things like the Trip tree and Vicious Stomp for two AoO whenever you trip someone.

Edit: I'd consider going with more levels of Barbarian than Monk. Beast Totem, Greater, gets you pounce. You can also take Elemental Rage for extra d6 elemental damage for each strike while raging, and you can switch up which element every round due to rage cycling. For extra awesomeness, consider getting Elemental Fist so you can do a couple extra d6s when you absolutely have to kill something dead.

Paul H

2012-02-28, 06:52 PM

Hi

There is a major problem since the alignment prereqs specicifically disallow this type of build. There is a lengthy debate on the Paizo forum re alignment changes to allow this.

However, how about a Synthesist/Monk build?

I'm looking at a Synth/Zen Archer build for the PFS campaign. Synth 'modifies' your physical stats, grants NAT AC bonus & Darkvision. You can also cast Mage Armour, PFE. Shield etc to self buff.

My Build (20 pt buy) Human Synth (going Zen Archer)

Str 13 Dex 13 Con 12 Int Wis 18 Cha 12
As Synth: Str 16 Dex 14 Con 13 .......... Plus 4 Nat AC
Feats Point Blank Shot, Dodge

So as Synth 1/Zen Archer 1 I'm AC 21 (excluding buffs, including Dodge)
[I could drop 2 Nat AC & place +8 Racial mod to Acrobatics instead]

Just a suggestion
Thanks
Paul H

KutuluKultist

2012-02-28, 06:55 PM

Hi

There is a major problem since the alignment prereqs specicifically disallow this type of build. There is a lengthy debate on the Paizo forum re alignment changes to allow this.

If you look closely, you will see that in the opening post it is clearly stated that

the Martial Artist archetype doesn't have to be Lawful

And that is true.

ArcGygas

2012-02-28, 06:57 PM

There is a major problem since the alignment prereqs specicifically disallow this type of build. There is a lengthy debate on the Paizo forum re alignment changes to allow this.

Actually, the Martial Artist Archetype (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/monk.html#martial-artist-(archetype)) released in Ultimate Combat says very specifically

Alignment: A martial artist may be of any alignment.

so this build is 100% allowable.

Edit: Swordsage'd.

Paul H

2012-02-28, 07:47 PM

Hi

OK, missed that one since it differs from the 'norm' of Monk concepts.

Still, look at Synthesist. The AC, HP, attackes & special abilities probably outclass the Martial Artist class.

Just the way you present your character is important.

You dress & look like a Monk. You have no armour (Synthesists gain no bonus from armour).

Human Synthesist/Oracle

Str 13 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 18

1) Synth: Darkvision, BAB+1, Str 16 Dex 14 Con 13. Feats (Arcane Strike, Dodge). HP 17 (10+7 Temp) AC 17
2) Oracle: (Think Lore Mystery - use Cha for AC & Ref saves)
3) Synth: Evasion, BAB+2, Str 17 Dex 15 Con 15, Nat AC +4. HP 39 AC 19 Feats (Pwr Attack)
4) Synth: BAB +3 (Same stats) HP 56 AC 21
5) Synth: BAB +4 (Same Stats) Bite, Claws do D6 Dam, +2 Saves
6) Synth: BAB +5 (Str 18 Dex 14 Con 16) Nat AC +6, Nat Attacks do +D6 Elemental Damage, Flight (Wings), Elemental Immunity (One elemental type). Nat AC +6 HP 75

So,

2 x Claw attacks +9, Dmg D6+4 (+D6 Elemental)
Bite attack +9, Dam D6+6 (+D6 Elemental)
Arcane Strike means all attacks count as Magical, doing extra damage (Increases to +2 at CL 5th)
Pwr Attack not included (-2 attack +4 dam Claws, +6 dam Bite)
Can Fly (Wings)
AC 23 (Unbuffed)
Can cast spells
AC 21
HP 75

Thanks
Paul H

ArcGygas

2012-02-28, 08:19 PM

The problem I have with your suggestion, Paul, is that a Synthesist may not fit the character idea. If you want to play a mundane unarmed warrior who focuses his rage into powerful punches, kicks, headbutts, and the occasional elbow and knee, then the Martial Artist/Barbarian build fits perfect.

If you want to play a caster who's good at melee, sure, the Synthesist fits just fine. So does Magus. Perhaps even Cleric or Druid. But that's crunch, not fluff.

Krazzman

2012-02-29, 02:25 AM

However, how about a Synthesist/Monk build?

I'm looking at a Synth/Zen Archer build for the PFS campaign. Synth 'modifies' your physical stats, grants NAT AC bonus & Darkvision. You can also cast Mage Armour, PFE. Shield etc to self buff.

I find it amusing that you suggest a inferior ranged combination to someone who wants to smack things up with his fists.

b2t:
you can either focus more on barbarian or more on monk. As recommended go with a style fitting (Dragon). Barbarian Rage powers you could consider are:
Dragon Totem line, Beast Totem line (only for the last one) and in general look at Novawurmsons Barbarian Guide.
Furthermore: Decide wheter you want more DR (if yes take Invulnerable Rager IF! you take more barb than monk levels) or want to stay with your "normal" abilities. I'm not sure if it was the fighter or the barb that got an archetype with great bonuses to unarmed dmg.

Hope this helps.

Canine

2012-02-29, 07:54 AM

If for whatever reason you want to be a different monk archetype, check out the DSP Maenad, available at d20pfsrd. They have a racial ability allowing them to be lawful barbarians, and some other fun related abilities.

KutuluKultist

2012-02-29, 08:37 AM

Here is a possible feat progression for a human Barbarian 1/Monk x

1st Extra Rage
Human Extra Rage
Mnk1 Stunning Fist
Mnk1 Improved Unarmed Strike
Mnk1 Dodge
3rd Dragon Style
Mnk2 Improved Grapple
5th Dragon Ferocity
7th Power Attack
Mnk6 Improved Trip
9th Step Up
11th Extra Rage Power: No Escape
Mnk10 Medusa's Wrath

The low barb level makes rage powers mostly uninteresting, but No Escape does not depend on your barb level to be good and in combination with step up it's a nice way to ensure that you can keep on full attacking.

The main reason why I advise going monk centric is because the interesting barbarian abilities come late (beast totem pounce @10, greater rage @11), while the early monk levels are chock full of nice stuff, including the powerful Exploit Weakness ability, which is keyed off your monk level.

Chained Birds

2012-02-29, 04:39 PM

I'd suggest only taking 5 levels of Martial Artist Monk as you don't really gain much except for unarmed damage progression after that. Barbarian gives you so much more than that particular Monk archetype, especially with no Qing Gong (Potential Misspell) synergy or Hungry Ghost synergy.
I'd suggest:
Monk (Martial Artist) 5 / Barbarian X
Any Archetype(s) for your Barbarian are preference alone as they vary pretty well. Just remember to take Totem for no other reason than you don't lose anything by doing it and you are then allowed to take multiple Totem Rage Powers.

Paul H

2012-02-29, 05:06 PM

Hi

@ Arc Rage does grant some powers, but soe does Synthesist. Raging can be just RP'ing after all.

@ Krazzman Inferior Ranged Combat? Erm, NO! No AoO using bows, combat reflexes, Guided Aim, all the Zen Archer bonuses..... Hmmm. Nope. Easy decision, Ranged is better.

But poster's decision. It's their concept, not ours.
Most import thing is enjoy!

Thanks
Paul H

Krazzman

2012-02-29, 06:05 PM

@ Krazzman Inferior Ranged Combat? Erm, NO! No AoO using bows, combat reflexes, Guided Aim, all the Zen Archer bonuses..... Hmmm. Nope. Easy decision, Ranged is better.

Are you kidding me? Where do you need Synthesist in your Zen Archer build?
Gimping your Zen Archer is in FACT making it inferior in ranged combat.

The things you pointed out are the things a normal Zen Archer gets, out of the box. And if you would have kept track of it, in a thread of mine, garrrrrg made it clear why a Zen Archer is better than a Synthesist.

Furthermore Combat Reflexes do nearly nothing in a Zen Archer Build unless you dash in means of enlarging your area of threat.

But to say "Hey here instead of what you want to play, which does not work since I did not read what the OP wrote, play this not that good combination instead" is just... I don't know what to say. It's just bad form.

ArcGygas

2012-02-29, 06:54 PM

@ Arc Rage does grant some powers, but soe does Synthesist. Raging can be just RP'ing after all.

Meh, it's just that one is mundane, the other is arcane. If you want casting in your melee, you're playing a gish. And some people don't want that. Perhaps it's a low magic campaign, or the GM has banned Synthesist (since it is a fairly broken [mechanics and otherwise] class).

Also, where does Biting come into being a Martial Artist? Just... what fighting style has a bite special attack? Nothing I've ever seen (aside from Mike Tyson that one time...).

Claws? Okay, I can understand, as there are cases where they mess up their fingers to have claw-like nails/fingers.

Flight just does not strike me as a martial arts thing. Jumping super awesome? Sure, I can get behind that. But winged flight? That's... a little weird.

Also, a small nitpick, but you're grabbing Elemental Immunity a level too soon (as you need to be a 6th level Summoner, not just 6th level).

Arbane

2012-02-29, 07:33 PM

KutuluKultist

2012-02-29, 07:57 PM

If I ever do play this character (big if), I was thinking Barb 1/MA 5/Barb more.

If I got for Beast Totem, how do the extra attacks from Lesser Beast Totem work with a monk's improved damage and Flurry of Blows? I'm still not clear on that...

They count as secondary (-5 to hit, 1/2 STR, 1/2 power attack), they use their own damage and not the monk unarmed damage, they can be combined with flurry of blows as normal, but then also take the -2 two weapon fighting penalty for a total of -7 to hit. Note also that you only count your monk level for your BAB for the actual flurry attacks, which means that when you flurry, your secondary natural attacks use your normal BAB.

I'd like to point out Exploit Weakness again. In the absence of basically any way to beat DR, you will need this ability and the only way to keep it competitive is to focus on monk levels.

Therefore, if you want to focus on barbarian, you should not go unarmed, but pick up a greatsword and maybe drop in a level of crusader cleric of Gorum for crusader's flurry.

Go Bar1/Clr1/Mnk1 to get crusader's flurry at 3rd, maximize STR and get all to hit bonuses that you can, because between flurry, cleric and monk, you're at an effective -5 to hit. On the bright side, you can now flurry with your greatsword.

ArcGygas

2012-02-29, 08:05 PM

If I ever do play this character (big if), I was thinking Barb 1/MA 5/Barb more.

If I got for Beast Totem, how do the extra attacks from Lesser Beast Totem work with a monk's improved damage and Flurry of Blows? I'm still not clear on that...

The only real benefit from the Beast Totem tree is Pounce at 10th level, and natural armor at 6th. The claws do not work with Dragon Style, Monk's Unarmed Strike damage increase, or Flurry of Blows.

Unless you take Feral Combat Training (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html#feral-combat-training). But that requires a bit of DM verification for some things (like if it uses the Monk's Unarmed Strike Progression and the like). Which, hey, lets you get a way to do Slashing or Bludgeoning.

grarrrg

2012-02-29, 08:15 PM

If this ever becomes an actual thing, and if you ever plan on making use of Unarmed Strikes, you'll probably want/NEED to take the feat Monastic Legacy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monastic-legacy-combat)
Wait... Scratch that... You need Still Mind to qualify for the Feat, which is traded away by the _one_ Monk archetype that lets you be not-Lawful....

Take 2:
If this ever becomes an actual thing, and if you ever plan on making use of Unarmed Strikes, and if you plan on being a Maenad (3rd party/Psionic), you'll probably want/NEED to take the feat Monastic Legacy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monastic-legacy-combat).
It counts half your non-Monk levels towards your Unarmed Damage progression.

*blahblahblah*... garrrrrg made it clear why a Zen Archer is better than a Synthesist. *blahblahblah*

You rang? (I think...?)

Dyllan

2012-03-01, 08:17 AM

I'd like to point out Exploit Weakness again. In the absence of basically any way to beat DR, you will need this ability and the only way to keep it competitive is to focus on monk levels.

First off, even with the -7 to hit, the claws are still two extra attacks - and you get all of your flurry with them, exactly as if you didn't use them. So there's no reason not to have them - it's extra damage (at least against those without a decent amount of DR). And if they DO have DR, you can still use your claw attacks to attempt combat maneuvers (even if you need a 20, that should happen 1 round out of 10).

Secondly, there is a much easier way to get DR (depending on your DM). Find a 20th caster level Druid and pay them to cast Greater Magic Fang on your unarmed strikes, then get someone to cast permanency (doesn't have to come from the same caster). You get +5 hit and damage with your unarmed strike, plus ignore most damage reduction. If you can't get a level 20 druid, a level 16 will get you +4, bypassing cold iron, silver and adamantine (+5 gets you alignment based). A level 12 will get you +3, bypassing cold iron and silver.

Add amulet of mighty fists for your other weapon enchantments (like holy, if you need the /good alignment based DR bypass).

Cost of GMF Permenancy:
Permanency - lvl 5, cl 11 = 550 GP + 7500 GP material component
Greater Magic Fang - lvl 3, CL 20 = 600 GP

Remember, Permanency's dispel DC is based on the level of the caster of the spell being Pemenancy'd - the level of the caster casting Permenancy is irrelevant.

KutuluKultist

2012-03-01, 10:33 AM

Secondly, there is a much easier way to get DR (depending on your DM). Find a 20th caster level Druid

Sorry, I'm a gonna interrupt you right there and let that sit for a moment.

Ok now, maybe we just approach the matter from two different angles. I like to focus on the lower levels, say 1-10, maybe 12. Stuff that happens past level 16 is of almost no interest to me at all, since I've yet to see a game that got there and almost every official campaign or adventure path starts small and spends most of it's time in the mid-levels. Hence I find that a really optimized build should have every thing it really needs going by level 7. That way, you'll have lots of levels left to play with it.
And correspondingly, I focus my advice and getting something nice during those central levels. And being a Mnk9/Bar 1 is just nicer than being a Mnk5/Bar5, even if a Mnk19/Bar1 might be much less powerful than a Mnk5/Bar15.

Cieyrin

2012-03-01, 10:50 AM

The only real benefit from the Beast Totem tree is Pounce at 10th level, and natural armor at 6th. The claws do not work with Dragon Style, Monk's Unarmed Strike damage increase, or Flurry of Blows.

Unless you take Feral Combat Training (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html#feral-combat-training). But that requires a bit of DM verification for some things (like if it uses the Monk's Unarmed Strike Progression and the like). Which, hey, lets you get a way to do Slashing or Bludgeoning.

There are Style feats for switching damage types as-is, so that's not really a reason to pick up Feral Combat Training. Letting you use them while flurrying, though, is a worthwhile endeavor.

Therefore, if you want to focus on barbarian, you should not go unarmed, but pick up a greatsword and maybe drop in a level of crusader cleric of Gorum for crusader's flurry.

You can just use Brass Knuckles if DR is a concern, since they use your unarmed damage if it's better and serve a platform for magicing up your strikes for far cheaper than the Amulet of Mighty Fists.

If this ever becomes an actual thing, and if you ever plan on making use of Unarmed Strikes, you'll probably want/NEED to take the feat Monastic Legacy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monastic-legacy-combat)
Wait... Scratch that... You need Still Mind to qualify for the Feat, which is traded away by the _one_ Monk archetype that lets you be not-Lawful....

Take 2:
If this ever becomes an actual thing, and if you ever plan on making use of Unarmed Strikes, and if you plan on being a Maenad (3rd party/Psionic), you'll probably want/NEED to take the feat Monastic Legacy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monastic-legacy-combat).
It counts half your non-Monk levels towards your Unarmed Damage progression.

Just what I was going to suggest.

KutuluKultist

2012-03-01, 11:08 AM

You can just use Brass Knuckles if DR is a concern, since they use your unarmed damage if it's better and serve a platform for magicing up your strikes for far cheaper than the Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Not really, I'm afraid.

http://paizo.com/store/games/roleplayingGames/p/pathfinderRPG/paizo/pathfinderCompanion/v5748btpy8dmf/discuss&page=12#550

Cieyrin

2012-03-01, 11:48 AM

Not really, I'm afraid.

http://paizo.com/store/games/roleplayingGames/p/pathfinderRPG/paizo/pathfinderCompanion/v5748btpy8dmf/discuss&page=12#550

You're looking at the Adventurer's Armory version, the APG version is the most up to date and says:

Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.

KutuluKultist

2012-03-01, 12:06 PM

You're looking at the Adventurer's Armory version, the APG version is the most up to date and says:

The Sean Reynolds post is from 2011, APG was released in 2010.

Cieyrin

2012-03-01, 12:16 PM

The Sean Reynolds post is from 2011, APG was released in 2010.

Okay. So? When it's actually released as errata, then it'll be officially changed. I'm not trolling through the Paizo boards and product comment threads every time I want to use something to see if the designers have changed their minds on how things are supposed to work. What's out there is RAI, not RAW, which is the difference. Right now, the Brass Knuckles increase damage at a reasonable cost to keep monks comparable with other melee, who don't have to jump through extra hoops just to magic up their beat down instrument of choice.

KutuluKultist

2012-03-01, 12:38 PM

Okay. So? When it's actually released as errata, then it'll be officially changed.

It should certain be put in the faq at least. But the point was merely what was "the most recent version", not whether the referred post was to be official. I'd stick to it, but that's hardly a law.

I'm not trolling through the Paizo boards and product comment threads every time I want to use something to see if the designers have changed their minds on how things are supposed to work. What's out there is RAI, not RAW, which is the difference. Right now, the Brass Knuckles increase damage at a reasonable cost to keep monks comparable with other melee, who don't have to jump through extra hoops just to magic up their beat down instrument of choice.

Well, since flurry of blows is essentially two-weapon fighting, an option to magic up unarmed strike (which already does more damage than any other weapon set available to two-weapon fighters) should not cost less than upgrading two weapons.
It does in fact cost 2.5 times as much, which, I agree, is a bit much for a monk, but becomes better for things with more natural attacks.
To do it for the cost of one weapon, though seems rather unbalanced to me.

Cieyrin

2012-03-01, 01:06 PM

Well, since flurry of blows is essentially two-weapon fighting, an option to magic up unarmed strike (which already does more damage than any other weapon set available to two-weapon fighters) should not cost less than upgrading two weapons.
It does in fact cost 2.5 times as much, which, I agree, is a bit much for a monk, but becomes better for things with more natural attacks.
To do it for the cost of one weapon, though seems rather unbalanced to me.

Why can't monks have nice things? It's already murderously expensive for a TWFer to keep up with a THFer, who only need to enchant one weapon, as opposed to two, meaning their weapons are always lagging behind. Plus, you have to stay monk to take advantage of it, unless you spend a feat on Monastic Tradition to keep their progression going. That's a significant difference just to be competent at your chosen fighting style. Plus the fact that monks are still a very MAD class, being dependent on 4 of the 6 stats, that it makes it difficult to keep up with other characters at times.

The PF Monk is better than the 3.5 one, it's true, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have issues still. Why take a bone away from monks so they stay mediocre?

KutuluKultist

2012-03-01, 01:34 PM

Cieyrin

2012-03-01, 02:08 PM

I actually think that PF did well in balancing two weapon fighting against two handed fighting, the only thing it really still needs is to include in improved two weapon fighting the ability to attack with both hands as a standard action.

And it would certainly be better if there was an item (armbands of punching? leg warmers of kicking?) that just magiced up unarmed (as opposed to natural) attacks, costing as much as improving two weapons. I don't really see who to make improving two weapons cheaper, without things getting seriously illogical, though.

It still costs you more feats to be just competent at TWF, whereas THF just lets you take feats to enhance it.

As for a specific item, the problem with the Amulet is that it's in the wrong slot and that it would be cheaper as a wrist item. We knew this in 3.5, it could have been fixed in PF but they instead joined the Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Necklace of Natural Weapons, which, while nice, still leaves something to be desired...