Gurps 4th >>>> D&D (3.5ish)

[JackRackham]

Okay, what books do I need to run a GURPS campaign with a fantasy feel? I already have all the GURPS Fantasy books and the Core books, but I need the rules for making combat more heroic (I guess?) and complex and the skills more general. As-is, combat looks pretty simplistic compared to d&d and the other fantasy rpgs I've seen.

[Morty]

I... wouldn't call GURPS combat simplistic compared to D&D at all. For one, you actually have a couple of manuevers other than "I swing/punch/shoot" even without techniques.
Either way, if you want to spice up combat, I recommend GURPS Martial Arts.

[Knaight]

GURPS looks much more simplistic than it is. I'd try Core+Fantasy, and only if you find it actually is too simplistic start adding things on. Martial Arts is the obvious addition, Magic works as well. Regarding equipment, there is always Low Tech.

[a_humble_lich]

I agree with what the others have said. I would also add GURPS Banestorm which is a really nice campaign world and I have heard good things about Dungeon Adventure (although I haven't seen it). As for complexity, depending on how many optional rules are used, GURPS has one of the most complex combat systems I've seen.

[Zaakar]

Playing with hit location makes the game much less simplistic, but arguably more gritty and less heroic.

[Fridrik Bj]

You might want to take a look at the following, in order of importance:

Magic
Low Tech
Banestorm
Dungeon Fantasy series
Martial Arts
Thaumatology

[Particle_Man]

Well to make skills more general can't you just take the skill categories and do that exclamation mark thing (like with SCIENCE!) instead of all the fiddly little skills (so you buy skills for a category of stuff, rather than specific skills).

And I thought there was a better magic book than Magic out there, thaumaturgy? that gave one more options.

For heroic combat is there a gurps swashbuckling? Or let everyone take ridiculous luck?

[Ts_]

Hey,

first of all: You can always ask for help in the official Gurps forum http://forums.sjgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13

There already are a few "How to get started" threads worth looking at, even if you don't want to post something. Usually, it's a friendly place, though threads might experience some topic drift ...

Anyway, since you asked here:
The Basic Set (Characters + Campaigns) is enough to run a fantasy campaign. You have all the skills you need (not many other books add skills, I think), many useful advantages, quite a lot of rules and even a useful spell selection (about 90 spells or so, not too shabby).

I wouldn't try to cut down the skill list but rather spend a little more time on character generation. The templates in Fantasy give some guidelines. But that's up to you. The usual approach for less skills is to use Bang! skills, which are "very hard" skills (or very, very hard?) and cost as much as 3 skills. But they usually cover about 10-15 related skills (all Drive! skills, all Science! skills, but also all Sword! variants etc) The rules are in the Basic Set. It would also help to download the free "Skill Categories" PDF, because it gives you a list of all combat, social, nature ... skills at a glance.

Then go and download the free "Gurps Character Sheet", which runs in Java and on all systems, and you can drag & drop your char together from a list of all skills, all advantages etc. (But you have to enter Bang-skills manually ... Just select "New Item -> New Skill" and select "W" for "wild card" skill.) That program really makes character generation a lot simpler.

Now you can make characters as much as you want. Enjoy! (I do.)

Oh wait, you want to play as well ... Right. Maybe just get started with the Basic Set? Really, there are tons of options in there. For heroic combat, give players more points, encourage them to take Luck and some levels of "hard to kill" and similar protective advantages, maybe turn on the cinematic options to brush of wounds or to spend character points to alter results. All that is in the Basic Set. Hand out healing potions more liberally. (Those aren't in the basic set. Just make them up yourself.)

Here's some pointers to what the combat system can already do: Multiple strikes. Any character can do up to 3 attacks / round by choosen the All-out-Attack(Double) and replacing one of these attacks by a Rapid Strike. Then use Extra Effort on the Rapid Strike, so you get 1 attack at +0 and 2 more at -3 (but spend 2 fatigue, and have no defense). Anyway, this lets skilled fighters, preferably in armor, mow down lesser foes quickly. Similar options give extra damage etc. Weapon Master advantage gives more damage, makes Parrying multiple opponents easier. Someone with a high Acrobat skill can do Acrobatic Dodges for cool flips in combat to aid defense ... And so on.

As has been said, add hit locations and stab people in the Vitals from the back (known as a sneak attack in other games, but hey, any skilled fighter can do that in Gurps, assuming he can get to the back unseen, which might just require some stealth). A typical trick is also to shoot opponents in the eye, because that's the most dangerous (but also hardest to hit) hit location. (For some reason, game masters like to give dragons protected eyes ...)

But honestly, I would slowly explore combat in about 3 levels. The first one is really just "Attack/Defend" (with the handful of standard maneuevers, which are already kinda cool). My next level roughly takes position in account but not yet battle maps, and turns on hit locations as well. And then full-blown combat with the various maneuvers on the battle map, hit locations, shields only protect you from one side, run-around-attacks, extra options ... There's a lot to discover.

Well then ... Now that you have explored the Basic Set, you can add Magic if you have someone who casts spells in the group (or in the enemy groups) and want more variety. The Magic book isn't perfect, but it serves as a suitable list of spells for a fantasy campaign. The feeling of this standard system is quite different to DnD 3.x, though. While magicians can be blasters, they are usually more effective as buffers or utility persons. (Of course, no one forbids them to be well-trained with a weapon as well! Though they only have that many points to spend, so they won't be as good as a pure fighter.)

Then there is a series of short PDFs called "Dungeon Fantasy". You can buy this and all other 4th edition PDFs from their own store, e23.sjgames.com, without DRM. It's pretty nifty. Well, "DF" is about old-school dungeoncrawling. It requires just the Basic Set and Magic, and the DF books which are about 24-50 pages each for $6-$13 or so. The first one gives you about 10 templates (like "classes" a knight, scout, thief, wizard, druid, cleric, barbarian ... but you have freedom to customize them and there are no levels), which are all optimized for combat and dungeon/wilderness exploration. They leave out all the fiddly skills for your daily work etc, and give you handy lists of important fighting abilities. If that's still too much, the book advices you to use a selection of bang-skills. The second DF book is about how to run such a DF campaign with quick & dirty rules for traps, buying & selling stuff etc. The third book adds a ton of cool races as well as some ideas how "multi-classing" can be done. There are more books (essentially splat books) in that line, but the first three really are very good for excitement-oriented players and munchkins ...

See, GURPS is a "roleplaying system" and to turn it into a "roleplaying game" you need to make rules decisions, not just set up a world. Dungeon Fantasy is just a (really good) example of a game that is in GURPS. It doesn't provide a setting (you decide how much of a setting you want and how much sense your dungeons make), but it really makes starting a game about able heroes easier. (Not first level heroes, DF starts with 250 point characters, which is 5th level or higher in DnD, I would say.)

There also is a book of monsters in the Dungeon Fantasy line, and an adventure.

There are more books that can be useful for a fantasy campaign, depending on how you want the campaign to work. For example, you could say "screw the magic system, I'm designing a new one!", then Thaumatology would be your friend. But be warned, that way lies a lot of work. (Again, DF already modifies the standard system slightly by letting only Druids take Weather/Nature/Animals spells, Clerics the healing spells, and Wizards most of the rest. You know, for flavour and to enforce distinguishable roles.)

Martial Arts is full of options and ideas for running campaigns that focus on combat (not just far-east, also modern times; mostly melee, some ranged, but no guns). But ... it is really too much material for the first game, I think. (The only important thing that you need from Martial Arts for the otherwise Basic Set combat is Deceptive Attack, which is already in there, but the rules are a bit limited. Look it up on the forums, it's just that you can trade each -2 on your attack for a -1 on the defense of the opponent. This lets extremely skilled fighters fight with their relative skill levels, otherwise fights can drag on forever. Just a note ...)

Anyway, MA is too complicated for the first adventure, I think.

Then there is Low-Tech ... It's just a list of gear. Everyday items for professionals (e.g. navigation aids) and a lot of weapons (there are also many in Martial Arts), but the basic set has some standard weapons already. It also gives alternative rules for armor and weapons, which are more realistic, but also more complicated.

Banestorm is a setting book. I like the idea of it: the Banestorm was an epic spell that misfired and now brings in medieval humans from earth into a world with just medieval fantasy races before. They start to establish their own culture from Earth in the Banestorm world. Anyway, it has enough locations to play a standard european medieval thing, but also say, arabic-inspired areas etc. It doesn't mix perfectly with Dungeon Fantasy, though, because the assumptions are somewhat different. There is some nice Banestorm-material from the Gurps 3e: An adventure called "Harkwood" (which also fits into any medieval setting). It's dirt cheap (PDF is $3), and has some interesting ideas, I think, which multiple possible villains with different motivations etc. It's less of a dungeon crawl and more a real adventure with a plot. The conversion from 3rd edition is mostly harmless, and there is the free "GURPS Update" to help you as well. (Mostly you just need to recalculate hit points and the defenses, which takes a second each.) Speaking of adventures, there is also the free "Caravan to Ein Arris", which can be good, and it's for 4th edition.

Okay ... there is a lot more ... But, I would stick with the Basic Set for now. When your magician demands it, consider buying Magic. When they want more combat, restart the campaign as Dungeon Fantasy. If they want even more tactical options in combat, look at Martial Arts. If they love gear, look at Low-Tech. If they want more intrigue, spend time thinking about your campaign world (Fantasy might help, and there is Social Engineering, which is full of rules and ideas about real-world social interaction) ...

If you want more heroic, let the fighter try out some even more cinematic combat options, use more Bang skills (or allow players to reallocate their points to be more optimized), allow higher attributes, some level of Altered Time Rate (a super advantage that makes you twice as fast ... in particular it gives you "two rounds per round") and so on. Oh, also let the players learn how to play the game ... They will soon discover enough tricks.

Have fun and I hope my wall of text didn't scare you off!
Ts

[Dingle]

I don't know if anyone'll be able to add to Ts_'s post.

I think it's more useful than reading the basic set cover to cover.

[Gillric]

The only thing I would add is DF on the Cheap, these are lower point versions of the templates from the dungeon fantasy line that allow you to start out lower powered or include racial templates and still use 250 pts

[JackRackham]

The only thing I would add is DF on the Cheap, these are lower point versions of the templates from the dungeon fantasy line that allow you to start out lower powered or include racial templates and still use 250 pts

GURPS DF is different than GURPS dungeon fantasy?

[Hades]

"DF on the Cheap" is a fan conversion of the normal Dungeon Fantasy (DF) templates to use lower points values, to better simulate adventurers at the very start of their careers, rather than the more competent regular templates. You can find it over on the SJ Games forums here (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=68862&highlight=dungeon+fantasy+cheap).

[JackRackham]

"DF on the Cheap" is a fan conversion of the normal Dungeon Fantasy (DF) templates to use lower points values, to better simulate adventurers at the very start of their careers, rather than the more competent regular templates. You can find it over on the SJ Games forums here (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=68862&highlight=dungeon+fantasy+cheap).

Thanks, I think part of my problem is that I'm used to d&d numbers. I think I was shooting for bigger-than-necessary skill point numbers and I think I was neglecting the potential for hit-point investment in excess of one's STR score. Damage, without this, seems to scale better than HP. As to the combat rules, I've been focusing on character creation, so I haven't gotten very far on that front.

I guess I was more worried that combat was SO deadly that one would avoid it altogether.

[Fridrik Bj]

Have a look at this thread LINK (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117181) and this one LINK (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123145)

[Natael]

Thanks, I think part of my problem is that I'm used to d&d numbers. I think I was shooting for bigger-than-necessary skill point numbers and I think I was neglecting the potential for hit-point investment in excess of one's STR score. Damage, without this, seems to scale better than HP. As to the combat rules, I've been focusing on character creation, so I haven't gotten very far on that front.

I guess I was more worried that combat was SO deadly that one would avoid it altogether.

If you have a burly fighter type (st 14), who invests HP (normal 1/3 beyond starting), and wears heavy armor (plate with chain under it), you have someone that can take a hell of beating, as most swords wont even hit for much damage if any if they armor up well.

[Knaight]

If you have a burly fighter type (st 14), who invests HP (normal 1/3 beyond starting), and wears heavy armor (plate with chain under it), you have someone that can take a hell of beating, as most swords wont even hit for much damage if any if they armor up well.

Most swords won't, no. GURPS has plenty of weapons that won't have an issue.