Is Summon Monster slavery?

[deuxhero]

In D&D morality (TM) no because slavery is Evil by the laws of the multiverse and this spell line can be [good] (and oddly, imprisoning a being literally made of evil is [evil]...) but I ran into this for fluff purposes, wondering how an anti slavery character could justify traveling with, let alone not shanking a caster that even casually summons things given the spell involves dragging some random sap (I think every single on the core SM list not just sentient, but sapient thanks the celestial/fiendish template) from whatever he was doing, forcing him to fight and causing him harm (They don't "die", but summons aren't immune to Symbol of Pain and the like) and possibly go missing for a day

If Planar Binding=Kidnapping is also up here (Planar Ally is a loyal ally of your deity sent by them to assist and thus avoids the problem. Summon Natures Ally for animals also doesn't run into this. though elemental and fey do. Summon Undead is also in the clear.)

[Fax Celestis]

Summoning spells are kind of a misnomer. They don't actually summon a creature from somewhere else: those are Calling spells. This isn't quite spelled out in the rules, but what it boils down to is that summoning spells actually find a creature somewhere in the multiverse, hide it outside of the multiverse for the duration of the spell, and make an idealized copy of that creature under your direct command wherever you directed. Otherwise, how else would a summoned creature always be at full HP, always have a positive disposition towards you, have no expended daily abilities or spell slots, and always have the same equipment?

As such, it's not really slavery because the effect of the spell isn't really to enslave a creature but to emulate one for a short while.

[hoverfrog]

Our DM started a campaign like this. The party were summoned from our places in the world and forced to fight for a good sorceress against an evil wizard. We all "died" and were transported home with a few injuries from the fight. The sorceress didn't last as long as we did though and we were later visited by her remorseful spirit who warned us that the enemy who defeated her was now after us to eliminate the witnesses.

Even the legend of such a story could be enough to turn a highly moral character against any kind of summoning spell. However there are more ways to deal with this that just killing wizards who summon. As there is no long term harm to the summoned creature it might be a matter of educating casters as to the harm that they do. After all they probably haven't thought about the implications. It's just a spell that they cast, not a way of life. There may be reasons when this spell could be used too.

Then again the wizards might just argue that no summoned creatures are harmed and instead a quasi-real construct is created from magic. Try talking to a summoned creature to test this idea.

[Jack_Simth]

The Planar Binding line is pretty clearly slavery (kidnapping + negotiating from a position of "yeah, I could just kill you and start over if I felt like it"), as is the short-term use of Gate (long term, you negotiate with them).

Summoning being slavery is a matter of fluff not specified: Are they knowingly answering the Summons because it helps them in some way (aka, danger-free XP), or are they randomly grabbed and bound? The Summoning Subschool itself doesn't clearly specify... however, certain creatures have their own Summoning abilities, which say things like "A hecatoncheires can summon one other hecatoncheires once per day, though is loath to do so because then it will be similarly obligated to answer its sibling’s summoning."

So whether or not it's slavery (even for a short time) depends on fluff the DM would need to answer.

[panaikhan]

Our GM Houseruled summons, and refluffed them as follows:
Only summons with *templates* can be summoned.
Summons are not sentient. they are effectively 'constructs' from the good/evil planes of existence (hense the template) who can be given simple orders.
They didn't exist before the summon, they don't exist afterwards, they were never "alive".

[CTrees]

Doesn't one of the elder evils play havoc with summoning spells, actually causing killed summons to stay around, dead for real? In its earlier stages, anyway (before summoning is blocked entirely). This was always interesting to me, making it seem like, canonically, creatures summoned are actually removed from their native plane, transported in, then restored when killed/when their durations run out.

[Psyren]

Summoning spells are kind of a misnomer. They don't actually summon a creature from somewhere else: those are Calling spells. This isn't quite spelled out in the rules, but what it boils down to is that summoning spells actually find a creature somewhere in the multiverse, hide it outside of the multiverse for the duration of the spell, and make an idealized copy of that creature under your direct command wherever you directed. Otherwise, how else would a summoned creature always be at full HP, always have a positive disposition towards you, have no expended daily abilities or spell slots, and always have the same equipment?

As such, it's not really slavery because the effect of the spell isn't really to enslave a creature but to emulate one for a short while.

Yeah, this makes sense to me.


Summoning being slavery is a matter of fluff not specified: Are they knowingly answering the Summons because it helps them in some way (aka, danger-free XP), or are they randomly grabbed and bound? The Summoning Subschool itself doesn't clearly specify... however, certain creatures have their own Summoning abilities, which say things like "A hecatoncheires can summon one other hecatoncheires once per day, though is loath to do so because then it will be similarly obligated to answer its sibling’s summoning."

Which is rather odd, because mortals don't accumulate this kind of "summoning debt" to be repaid to extraplanar creatures later, even mortals that make a habit of summoning.

It sounds to me like there is an underlying contract or decree from whatever deity or force controls summoning magic - that if a caster grows powerful enough to summon X, then X has an obligation to answer his/her call and show up on the battlefield as a way of rewarding them for their piety or dedication to the Craft.

But again, this is why I like psionics. No morality in sculpting a lump of ectoplasm and infusing it with personality-less anima :smallwink:

[Eldan]

Planescape went into this a bit, actually. There, summoning spells created a tiny floating crystal on the target plane, that zipped around at high speed and tried to hit the target creature to summon it. Planars were highly annoyed about that.

[Psyren]

Planescape went into this a bit, actually. There, summoning spells created a tiny floating crystal on the target plane, that zipped around at high speed and tried to hit the target creature to summon it. Planars were highly annoyed about that.

That doesn't explain their willingness to serve you though; if anything, they should be as resentful as if hit by a CoP.

And even if the spell compels obedience, wouldn't there be reprisals after the battle? If not from the less intelligent "summonees" (like Celestial/Fiendish {animal}), then certainly from the planetars, fiends, elementals, djinni etc.

[Mystify]

Our GM Houseruled summons, and refluffed them as follows:
Only summons with *templates* can be summoned.
Summons are not sentient. they are effectively 'constructs' from the good/evil planes of existence (hense the template) who can be given simple orders.
They didn't exist before the summon, they don't exist afterwards, they were never "alive".
Which flies in the face of the alternative rules which let you travel to the creatures home plane and give it equipment, which it will possess when you summon it.


Which is rather odd, because mortals don't accumulate this kind of "summoning debt" to be repaid to extraplanar creatures later, even mortals that make a habit of summoning.

Summoning for monsters is calling up your buddy and saying "Hey, I need a favor!", adn by calling in a favor you incur a debt.
Summoning for mortals is different. Exactly what it is the topic of this discussion, but its not "Hey, buddy, I need a favor, I'll repay you"

[Axier]

I guess it really depends on the universe. In my thoughts, summoning is more like a pact, the person that sends you the non-sentient creatures uses it as a way to train his/her stock in a safe manner (Summoned creatures do not die, they just return to their original plane), and welcomes the chance to send them, although I do tend to work out some form of recompense. Creatures killed by summoned creatures in my world are then summoned and bound to the agent that sent you the summons, so long as they are not sentient. Its like astral Poke'mon

As a summoner in my world starts summoning more sentient creatures, with their own will, they make a pact with a particular summon through RP, and they usually take some amount of coin for their services. This is the summon that they can summon with that particular level spell. They can also continue to summon less sentient creatures. If they are glib talkers, they can even get their summons to join their cause.

What ever the case may be, its definately up to DM discression.

[Psyren]

Summoning for monsters is calling up your buddy and saying "Hey, I need a favor!", adn by calling in a favor you incur a debt.
Summoning for mortals is different. Exactly what it is the topic of this discussion, but its not "Hey, buddy, I need a favor, I'll repay you"

Yeah I know that - that's why I think it's odd. What does the monster get out of it? Do they even remember being summoned?

[Eldan]

That doesn't explain their willingness to serve you though; if anything, they should be as resentful as if hit by a CoP.

And even if the spell compels obedience, wouldn't there be reprisals after the battle? If not from the less intelligent "summonees" (like Celestial/Fiendish {animal}), then certainly from the planetars, fiends, elementals, djinni etc.

There certainly was animosity. I think there was somewhere a quest suggestion in there: Either have the players accidentally summoned by a summoning crystal gone awry (You wait in a queue. A summoning crystal comes in through a window, the archon in front of you ducks at the last moment, it hits you) or have them hired to go "talk" to a particularly prolific summoner on the prime (Planescape had rules dictating that most planar creatures can't really affect the prime).

[Wyntonian]

I always thought the material component should be a bottle of ether and the verbal "Hey, can you smell this rag for me?"

[CTrees]

I always thought the material component should be a bottle of ether and the verbal "Hey, can you smell this rag for me?"

Nonono, that's Charm Person. :smallwink:

[ahenobarbi]

Many mortals share the mistaken belief that angels are compelled to answer summon monster spells, and some have the audacity to believe that angels sit around at all hours of the day and night waiting to be
summoned. This is hardly the case. (...) However, many look forward to serving in this manner, and the more military-minded angels in particular see this as a noble duty. Willingness to respond to a summoning or calling is a mental state that any angel (or outsider, for that matter) can enter or leave at will (without requiring an action) and that requires no concentration to maintain. When someone casts one of these spells, the magic scours Heaven and similar planes for an angel in this state, forms a connection to that angel, and begins the process of drawing him to the caster’s plane.(...)
As with summoning spells, most calling spells require the target to come voluntarily (...) A few calling spells, such as binding and lesser planar binding, can grab an unwilling outsider...

So mostly you summon willing creatures. Some calling spells can get you unwilling targets (and could e considered slavery).

[shadow_archmagi]

I assumed that the summoned creatures knew full well what they were getting into and were eager to fight for the appropriate cause on the Prime. I always figured that the Lawful Good Eagle God sat there, raising his lawful good extraplanar eagles, telling them exciting stories about the day they'd get to go out and fight evil.

[deuxhero]

So mostly you summon willing creatures. Some calling spells can get you unwilling targets (and could e considered slavery).

Never heard of Anger of Angels. Third Party? Pre 3.x?

[Rubik]

Never heard of Anger of Angels. Third Party? Pre 3.x?Haha. At first I thought you said 'Angler of Angels'. I imagine they make for [Good] lures for fly-fishing.

[ShriekingDrake]

In most of my games, the SM and SNA are considered to summon creatures from out of the "aether". They think and act like the creatures they represent, but they come from and go to nothingness. Whether that's slavery or cruelty is another question.

[CTrees]

Remembered to go looking. Pandorym, from Elder Evils. The moderate sign includes the language, "summoned creatures no longer return to their native planes." My bolding, naturally. The remainder of the signs selection clearly indicates that summoning spells are being affected. Thus, I have to go with creatures being temporarily pulled from their native planes.

Since the summoning spells don't get a saving throw normally... it's an interesting question.

[mikau013]

Keep in mind that a summoned monster who is reduced below 0 hp takes 24 hours to reform and can't be summoned till she/he is reformed as well.

[ahenobarbi]

Never heard of Anger of Angels. Third Party? Pre 3.x?

3rd party, "Sword and Sorcery" publisher (the same as Arcana Unearthed I think). But explanation looks most practical of all I've seen.

[herrhauptmann]

Haha. At first I thought you said 'Angler of Angels'. I imagine they make for [Good] lures for fly-fishing.

I might have to sig that...
Gotta reread the book (though I do own it).

On topic: I remember an alternate set of summoning rules was that you essentially signed a contract with several creatures taht would then answer your summons.
If it wasn't possible for them to sign, like say fiendish octopi, someone in charge of them could sign on their behalf. Like getting the king of the seas to sign, then letting you summon any sea creature that was his subject.

[Rubik]

I might have to sig that...
Gotta reread the book (though I do own it).Feel free.


On topic: I remember an alternate set of summoning rules was that you essentially signed a contract with several creatures taht would then answer your summons.
If it wasn't possible for them to sign, like say fiendish octopi, someone in charge of them could sign on their behalf. Like getting the king of the seas to sign, then letting you summon any sea creature that was his subject.Cthulu!

[Fax Celestis]

Keep in mind that a summoned monster who is reduced below 0 hp takes 24 hours to reform and can't be summoned till she/he is reformed as well.

...according to what, exactly?

[Jack_Simth]

...according to what, exactly?
The Summoning Subschool Description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning).

[Fax Celestis]

...right, okay. But I can use summon monster I to summon a different badger, since summoning specific creatures is a variant rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/summonMonsterVariants.htm#themedSummoningLists).

[Jack_Simth]

...right, okay. But I can use summon monster I to summon a different badger, since summoning specific creatures is a variant rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/summonMonsterVariants.htm#themedSummoningLists).
Correct. However, when discussing the morality of something, the fact that you can grab someone else while the first person you grabbed is in a funny sort of jail for a day has no particular ethical bearing on whether or not you've tossed someone into a funny sort of jail for a day.

[deuxhero]

On topic: I remember an alternate set of summoning rules was that you essentially signed a contract with several creatures taht would then answer your summons.
If it wasn't possible for them to sign, like say fiendish octopi, someone in charge of them could sign on their behalf. Like getting the king of the seas to sign, then letting you summon any sea creature that was his subject.

A "Guild of Summoned Monsters" that casters needed to pay dues to would be an interesting feature for a setting. Not like the caster needs WBL badly like a Fighter does.

[bloodtide]

but I ran into this for fluff purposes, wondering how an anti slavery character could justify traveling with, let alone not shanking a caster that even casually summons things given the spell involves dragging some random sap


You can look at summons as more of a service. The idea is that all the creatures summoned did some type of wrong, depending on each alignment. So as punishment, repentance, probation or such they are required to be in a 'summon monster waiting room'.

[Voyager_I]

...right, okay. But I can use summon monster I to summon a different badger, since summoning specific creatures is a variant rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/summonMonsterVariants.htm#themedSummoningLists).

Very true.

What they were keying on, though, is that this rule implies the summoned creature is a distinct individual who can be affected by events that occur during the term of their summoning.

This still doesn't explain their attitude towards being summoned or how they are selected, so there's still a lot open to interpretation.

[demigodus]

Well, there is always the Redcloak approach: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html

Just pay them for their services. Not slavery, just mercenaries.

[Voyager_I]

I believe opinion is that some of those were Planar Allies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm), which receive payment for their service as per normal. They're also called, rather than summoned, which is much more clearly defined.

Or maybe that's what you were saying in the first place.