Name all of the primarily melée fighters, then list them in order of skill.

[FlyingCandles]

Off the top of my head...

Tarquin
Julio Scoundrel
Miko
Roy
Belkar
Thog
Élan
Nale
O'Chul

Anyone else?

[Quild]

MitD on top :x

[dehro]

since you count Miko who is dead..
I'd list Soon somewhere near the top

[Talyn]

I agree with Soon at the top, and I'm pretty sure Julio Scoundrel should be somewhere below Roy at this point, and maybe even Elan - as an NPC and in his retirement, he hasn't been gaining levels while the OotS has.

Also, O'Chul was confident enough in his abilities to threaten to gut Belkar with is bare hands after he escaped from Xykon - now, that might just be a paladin fearlessness thing, but O'Chul doesn't seem like the type to say something if he doesn't mean it.

That would put O'Chul above the Roy/Belkar line.

[Bastian Weaver]

Soon would be probably on top, yeah.
Miko comes close second, because she was seriously badass.
Then we have Horace Greenhilt. Guy was a legend.
Then there's his grandson Roy. He defeated the great champion of the Empire of Blood - that's something.
Belkar Bitterleaf is the sexy shoeless god of war. Nuff said.
thog champion. thog's prowess in fighting matched only by thog's prowess in eating icecream.
Hinjo was, supposedly, the second best paladin in the Sapphire Guard after Miko. So he probably must be tougher than Lien and O'Chul. Which is hilarious.
Because O'Chul is pure awesome.
Then we have the Tarquin family. That's easy:
Tarquin beats Elan
Elan beats Nale
Nale is sad.
Lien is cool and cute and has an interesting mount.
And Right-Eye was okay, for a goblin.

[Hironomus]

Of those...

Tarquin would be top of the list. Thog has been stated as being a superior combatant to Roy. And despite his retirement (or semi retirement really) I still put Julio somewhere not too faar beneath Tarquin.

Hinjo needs to be added to the list. And possibly Lien.

[Bastian Weaver]

Of those...

Tarquin would be top of the list. Thog has been stated as being a superior combatant to Roy. And despite his retirement (or semi retirement really) I still put Julio somewhere not too faar beneath Tarquin.

Hinjo needs to be added to the list. And possibly Lien.

Just did.
Julio is... strange. I mean, he's really tough unless agaisnt someone who knows about his fighting style and is able to block his puns. So it's possible that Tarquin would easily defeat Julio, but Julio could defeat an enemy too strong for Tarquin. Probably.

[dehro]

miko must have lost a fair number of party tricks, through falling.
Julio, and to a lesser degree Elan, are indeed going to wipe the floor with anyone with an intelligence score high enough to be aggravated/distracted by the terrible puns. but it's a narrow bracket.
a highly intelligent fighter would either ignore them or counter them. a total dimwit wouldn't even listen or comprehend them.
unless the puns somehow enhance the figters independently from how they're received by the enemy...


my list would be as follows

I'd list MitD first..but we don't know if he's primarily a fighter..for all we know he's a magical creature that just hasn'd thought of doing any magic so far...or has the potential to do much more damage through magic. it's farfetched, I know, but the simple truth is we don't know enough to be 100% sure he belongs on the list. so..

Soon
Tarquin
Grandpa Greenhilt (bet you'd forgotten about him)
O'Chul
Roy
Thog
Julio Scoundrel
Belkar
Miko
Hinjo
Durkon (though.. in fight he's primarily melee..but he's not primarily a fighter..so..should he be on the list?)
Élan
Nale
Lien

[Emulgator]

I would put Thog bove Roy, mostly because of a perfect record of 37 fights, and ripping other guy head off with bare hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0782.html). I mean he lost to Roy, but only after Roy took a healing potion and arrow'd Thog's knee.

[dehro]

we don't know what level those 37 were.

[skaddix]

I would put Thog bove Roy, mostly because of a perfect record of 37 fights, and ripping other guy head off with bare hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0782.html). I mean he lost to Roy, but only after Roy took a healing potion and arrow'd Thog's knee.

Thog is a barbarian. he has no skills.

[thepsyker]

I agree with Soon at the top, and I'm pretty sure Julio Scoundrel should be somewhere below Roy at this point, and maybe even Elan - as an NPC and in his retirement, he hasn't been gaining levels while the OotS has.

Also, O'Chul was confident enough in his abilities to threaten to gut Belkar with is bare hands after he escaped from Xykon - now, that might just be a paladin fearlessness thing, but O'Chul doesn't seem like the type to say something if he doesn't mean it.

That would put O'Chul above the Roy/Belkar line.

Julio made something like #35 on a list of the best swordfighters in the world, he should be above pretty much anyone besides Soon and possibly Tarquin. Also remember his prestige class lets him use Charisma instead of strength as his primary combat score and that his charisma will only go up as he advances in age categories so he isn't going to be slowed down by old age.

[aldeayeah]

A guess based on their prime, also tiered because it's too close:

Tier 0 (epic): Soon
Tier 1 (legendary): Julio, Tarquin, Horace
Tier 2 (master): Roy, Thog
Tier 3 (expert): Miko, Belkar, O'Chul, Lien, Enor
Tier 4 (good): Hinjo, Elan
Tier 5 (mediocre): Nale


Hinjo was, supposedly, the second best paladin in the Sapphire Guard after Miko. So he probably must be tougher than Lien and O'Chul. Which is hilarious.

That was a long time ago. It's stated in-comic that both O'Chul and Lien have surpassed Hinjo since he became a ruler.

[Zeta Kai]

Thog was handing Roy his ass, had a perfect record of 37-0 in the arena, & was only defeated by a healing potion, broken glass in the face, & a collapsing roof. Thog > Roy. QED.

O'chul seems to have more HP than any character that we've seen, possibly excepting the MitD. He was at ground zero of the gate explosion at Azure City. The one that leveled the castle around him & tore Miko in half. He was singed, but intact. And not even acid-breathing sharks can stop him. O'chul > Miko. QED.

Miko took down the entire party & tied them all up. Granted, that was a plot victory, & Roy didn't have his sword, but still she took on all six of them simultaneously & won. Miko > Roy. QED.

As for the rest, I couldn't tell you for certain. I'd suspect that Tarquin is better than Elan, Elan is better than Nale, & the MitD is better than anybody, but it's mostly conjecture.

[Jubal_Barca]

Hinjo was the second highest ranking paladin in the Sapphire guard. Leadership does not necessarily equal asskicking, and he claimed O'Chul was the toughest of them all (hence throne room guarding). So I'd say O'Chul was probably above Hinjo combat-wise (a combat we'll never see happen, mind).

[suzaliscious]

The actual quote from Miko herself is that Hinjo is the second strongest. Hinjo then claimed that O-Chul's the toughest Paladin. I interpreted that as Miko and Hinjo have the greatest combat ability while O-Chul probably has high defenses and HP and is tough to take down. As was later proven following his capture.

After becoming the ruler of Azure City, though, Hinjo didn't get as many chances to accrue XP as Lien or O-Chul did. They're probably both above him at this point.

(I find it hilarious that O-Chul is at the bottom in the OP. Wat.)

[skaddix]

Thog was handing Roy his ass, had a perfect record of 37-0 in the arena, & was only defeated by a healing potion, broken glass in the face, & a collapsing roof. Thog > Roy. QED.

O'chul seems to have more HP than any character that we've seen, possibly excepting the MitD. He was at ground zero of the gate explosion at Azure City. The one that leveled the castle around him & tore Miko in half. He was singed, but intact. And not even acid-breathing sharks can stop him. O'chul > Miko. QED.

Miko took down the entire party & tied them all up. Granted, that was a plot victory, & Roy didn't have his sword, but still she took on all six of them simultaneously & won. Miko > Roy. QED.

As for the rest, I couldn't tell you for certain. I'd suspect that Tarquin is better than Elan, Elan is better than Nale, & the MitD is better than anybody, but it's mostly conjecture.

Thog beating up Roy had nothing to do with Skill at all. Thog went on a rage induced rampage. In the skill fight Roy beat Thog.

O'Chul being the toughest does not make him more skilled then Miko at all. Miko was the highest level Paladin. O'chul himself calls her their finest warrior.

Yes Miko is better or at least was better.

[Talyn]

People are forgetting that, at the time Miko took down the whole Order, they were significantly lower-level than they are now, AND she had "railroad plot" power which made her tougher at the time than she was normally.

Recall that Belkar was able to take her on solo for an extended period and survive - arguably, he even defeated her (he had an opportunity for a coup de grace and chose not to take it) and that was a minimum of 3 levels ago, probably more like 4 or 5.

So, while Miko is tough, she (and, by extension the rest of the Guard excepting Soon) are not as powerful as Roy and Belkar. We haven't seen Roy vs. Tarquin yet, but I'd guess that plot-convenience would indicate that they are fairly evenly matched, so that puts Tarquin above Team Sapphire as well.

[edit] Just realized I argued against my earlier point... hmm, maybe O'Chul gained enough power to surpass Miko when he made his threat to Belkar [end edit]

[skaddix]

Belkar winning had nothing to do with skill or power. It was strategy. He simply ambushed her, set traps, exploited her emotions and used hit and run tactics. Belkar knew in a straight fight he would get stomped.

Fallen Miko beat the crap out of Hinjo so I think its clear she was quite a bit above Hinjo.

[JSSheridan]

MitD
Kim Soon
Miko Miyazaki (paladin)
Thog
Tarquin
Horace Greenhilt

----------------
O-Chul
Roy Greenhilt
Enor
Miko Miyazaki (fallen)
Julio Scoundrel
Hinjo
Belkar Bitterleaf
Lien
Gannji

----------------
Elan
Durkon Thundershield
Nale

I've divided it into three tiers, and ordered the warriors in that tier. The elite fighters have either a great deal of ability and/or skill and use it well. Tarquin is a bit speculative, but I'm looking forward to seeing him fight Roy.

The second tier are warriors who are capable in a fight, but are limited by either a lack of experience or mediocre ability. O-Chul (who is not Irish incidentally) and Roy have the potential to move up into the elite tier, but aren't quite there.

The last tier are primary spellcasters that are also proficient fighters. They are unlikely to invest Feats into melee skills however.

[eilandesq]

Miko should have a split rating pre and post fall:

Pre-Fall: probably second only to Soon
Post-Fall: clearly inferior to Roy, still markedly superior to Hinjo

[Knightofvictory]

I can't believe people think Hinjo> O-Chul!

This is Hinjo vs Redcloak http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html

This is O-Chul vs Redcloak http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html

I'd say O-Chul is on the same level as Roy as both of them are the only melee characters to repeatedly survive high level spells from both Redcloak and Xyklon.

Roy beats Belkar, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0748.htmland Thog is equal to Roy in a fight, more or less, their fights always take several strips to resolve. So I'm going to go with this. Obviously, this is just my own speculations.

Out of the OOTS characters still alive

Roy, Thog, O-Chul. Tarquin, Julio
Roy and O-Chul can survive encounters with Redcloak and Xyklon. Hell, O-chul DEFEATS Redcloak with an improvised weapon. :smallamused: Thog can go 1v1 with Roy, Tarquin and Julio have a reputation.

Belkar, Ganji
Belkar has a very high kill count. Ganji beats up Elan in a 1v1 when they first meet, and seems tough but gets thrown around by Roy in a barfight. I'd really like to see these two duke it out.

Bozzak
loses to Belkar in melee. Seems pretty tough though, and one shots Haley.

Elan=Nale, Enor, Crystal
These guys are all competent in melee, but I don't see any of them going 1v1 vs any of the above with only swords. All 4 have at least disabled/ defeated PCs or Liner Guild members but need other things besides weapons to be a real threat. (Sneak attacks, Illusions, complex plans, etc.)

Lien, Hinjo
Have not defeated anyone remarkable, but are still strong fighters.

[SavageWombat]

Roy is probably a better fighter than Belkar, but they should be in the same "tier" as equal-level PCs. And Belkar's effectiveness is unquestioned.

Miko at her best was as good a fighter as, maybe, Roy is now.

And put Evisceratus the gladiator at the very bottom of the list to show where exactly that is.

[DrBurr]

Also Kraagor should probably be above Thog and Miko, he was an Epic Level Barbarian after all.

Also Girard dual wielded scimitar and had two levels in ranger so he should probably be above Elan at least


MitD
Kim Soon
Miko Miyazaki
Thog
Tarquin
Horace Greenhilt

----------------
O-Chul
Roy Greenhilt
Enor
Julio Scoundrel
Hinjo
Belkar Bitterleaf
Lien
Gannji

----------------
Elan
Durkon Thundershield
Nale

I've divided it into three tiers, and ordered the warriors in that tier. The elite fighters have either a great deal of ability and/or skill and use it well. Tarquin is a bit speculative, but I'm looking forward to seeing him fight Roy.

The second tier are warriors who are capable in a fight, but are limited by either a lack of experience or mediocre ability. O-Chul (who is not Irish incidentally) and Roy have the potential to move up into the elite tier, but aren't quite there.

The last tier are primary spellcasters that are also proficient fighters. They are unlikely to invest Feats into melee skills however.

Am I correct to assume this list takes into account when a Character is at the height of their power hence the reason why Miko is so high

[thepsyker]

Also Kraagor should probably be above Thog and Miko, he was an Epic Level Barbarian after all.

Also Girard dual wielded scimitar and had two levels in ranger so he should probably be above Elan at least



Am I correct to assume this list takes into account when a Character is at the height of their power hence the reason why Miko is so high

Julio made #32 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html)on a list of the top 100 swordmen of the century, he should be ranked higher than Roy at the very least and probably anyone on the list that isn't epic.

[hobo386]

Thog is a barbarian. he has no skills.

Actually, Barbarians get 4 skill points per level as opposed to a Fighter's 2.

Now Roy still probably has a ton more, since he's a human (+1) with a positive intelligence modifier, while Thog has an abysmal INT score.

[skaddix]

My point is Thog has no fighting skills. He does not when fights based on his skills, he wins by overpowering his opponents.

[BaronOfHell]

My arbitrary list:

#1 Half-Ogre with a [enchanted] spiked chain (beaten by gravitor)
#2 Ghost Soon Kim
#3 Kragoor
#4 Tarquin (finest warrior of his generation, same generation as Scoundrel)
#5 Roy Greenhilt
#6 Julio Scoundrel
#7 Durkon Thundershield
#8 Miko Miyazaki
#9 Belkar Bitterleaf
#10 O-Chul
#11 Thog
#12 Enor
#13 Horace Greenhilt
#14 Bandit Leader
#15 Elan
#16 Nale
#17 Hinjo
#18 Lien
#19 Gannji
#20 Evisceratus


Thog was handing Roy his ass, had a perfect record of 37-0 in the arena, & was only defeated by a healing potion, broken glass in the face, & a collapsing roof. Thog > Roy. QED.

Roy defeated Thog. Roy > Thog. QED.

[JSSheridan]

Also Kraagor should probably be above Thog and Miko, he was an Epic Level Barbarian after all.

Also Girard dual wielded scimitar and had two levels in ranger so he should probably be above Elan at least



Am I correct to assume this list takes into account when a Character is at the height of their power hence the reason why Miko is so high

Pretty much, so my list is Miko is as a paladin. Miko the Fallen would be between Enor and Julio.

[veti]

I'm unclear on the rules of this exercise. Are all kinds of tactical advantage excluded (Belkar's fight vs Miko), or only those where you need another person actively helping you (Roy vs Thog)? How about equipment? When Thog fought Roy, they were both limited to gladiatorial "light" armour, which favoured Thog's fighting style over Roy's.

So what's the rules?

If we're imagining a situation where the combatants have to strip naked and fight with non-magical weapons in a closely scrutinised arena with no possibility of outside intervention... I'd pick Belkar to beat all comers except possibly Kraagor, just because everyone else would be too embarrassed to fight properly, and he'd have a height advantage.

(Actually no, scratch that - the Ancient Black Dragon could take Belkar and Kraagor together, and come back for seconds.)

As to Tarquin and Julio's vaunted "rankings" - as one who's worked in magazine journalism, I'm here to tell you, those things mean squat. The list is almost entirely a function of "who has the most fans" and "who can we get the best pictures of". Actual fighting merit, as measured by HP, AC, attack and damage bonuses - would be, at best, about the 4th or 5th most important criterion.

[Flame of Anor]

Hinjo was, supposedly, the second best paladin in the Sapphire Guard after Miko. So he probably must be tougher than Lien and O'Chul.

That was before Lien and O-Chul (note the hyphen, not apostrophe) gained levels. I don't remember where Hinjo points this out but he does.

[thepsyker]

As to Tarquin and Julio's vaunted "rankings" - as one who's worked in magazine journalism, I'm here to tell you, those things mean squat. The list is almost entirely a function of "who has the most fans" and "who can we get the best pictures of". Actual fighting merit, as measured by HP, AC, attack and damage bonuses - would be, at best, about the 4th or 5th most important criterion.You don't live long enough to get a reputation for fighting ability like that if any middle level fighter (i.e. Roy) that comes along can take you out. This isn't sexiest man alive its, best at killing stuff with three feet of sharpened metal. If someone doesn't like their place on the list they don't need to improve their PR they can just find the next highest living person on the list and kill them in a duel. The fact that some young upstart looking to prove his metal hasn't been able to do that to Julio implies some level of skill.

P.S. Besides even if it is just a popularity contest charisma is his primary combat stat.:smalltongue:

[Smolder]

Roy beats Belkar, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0748.html

Everyone seems set on the conclusion that Roy > Belkar. I'm not sold.

Roy took 8 direct hits before getting in one swing. If those had not been wooden swords, Belkar would have eviscerated him.

[Cavelcade]

Everyone seems set on the conclusion that Roy > Belkar. I'm not sold.

Roy took 8 direct hits before getting in one swing. If those had not been wooden swords, Belkar would have eviscerated him.

Roy was clearly allowing those hits to land. I wouldn't say it's conclusive evidence either way but I suspect Roy is probably a better fighter than Belkar.

[BaronOfHell]

I'm here to tell you, those [magazine ratings] mean squat. The list is almost entirely a function of "who has the most fans" and "who can we get the best pictures of".
Indeed! I was once young and stupid.:smallsigh: In my stupidity a promise of the top 10 world most sexiest woman lured me like the sirene seductresses.
And for what? So I can tell these womans hotness could be described on a scale from a boat to cheese as a mere ":smallfurious:"?!?
No. It may have cost me my youth, but those unattractive scrawny, gaunt and bony ladies (if not.. girls:smalleek:) whose bodies were more similar to a skeleton than to anything remotely bangable, at least didn't rob me of stupidity!

[veti]

If someone doesn't like their place on the list they don't need to improve their PR they can just find the next highest living person on the list and kill them in a duel. The fact that some young upstart looking to prove his metal hasn't been able to do that to Julio implies some level of skill.

Oh come on now, who exactly is going to risk their life to take the coveted #32 spot in a list like that? If he were #1 or #2, you might have a point, but at #32? - you'd need positively Nalean levels of obsessive pettiness to take competition that far.

And his skill at dealing with "upstarts" doesn't necessarily have to involve fighting. Could be skill at evading potential challengers, or misdirecting them into challenging for some more prestigious and meaningful spot. Maybe Julio spent his time hanging out and playing cards with the 12th-highest ranking swordsman of his generation. Or maybe those close below him in the list happen to be good-aligned, and not really into committing murder for such a meaningless prize.

[thepsyker]

Oh come on now, who exactly is going to risk their life to take the coveted #32 spot in a list like that? If he were #1 or #2, you might have a point, but at #32? - you'd need positively Nalean levels of obsessive pettiness to take competition that far.

And his skill at dealing with "upstarts" doesn't necessarily have to involve fighting. Could be skill at evading potential challengers, or misdirecting them into challenging for some more prestigious and meaningful spot. Maybe Julio spent his time hanging out and playing cards with the 12th-highest ranking swordsman of his generation. Or maybe those close below him in the list happen to be good-aligned, and not really into committing murder for such a meaningless prize.
Sure it could be that or maybe he is just the 32 best swordsman of the last century. He is an experience adventurer with decades of experience, which have only served to boost his primary combat stat of charisma.:smallwink:

[DnDgeek13]

are we talking about level of skill or level of effectiveness? thog may be somewhat skilled but i would more label him as effective rather than skilled

[Onyavar]

I'm unclear on the rules of this exercise. Are all kinds of tactical advantage excluded (Belkar's fight vs Miko), or only those where you need another person actively helping you (Roy vs Thog)? How about equipment? When Thog fought Roy, they were both limited to gladiatorial "light" armour, which favoured Thog's fighting style over Roy's.

So what's the rules?

If we're imagining a situation where the combatants have to strip naked and fight with non-magical weapons in a closely scrutinised arena with no possibility of outside intervention... [...]

This is the point. Every situation will give one or the other a bonus.
- Improvised weapons, bare handed or with the two-handed family sword that you are used to fight with?
- with your strength boosting belt around your waist and your +X armor? Or in the nudies? If in standardized armor, the epic monk looses!
- in a silent battle or are you allowing speech, insults and puns?
- who against who? If you allow an AoE II image: Pikeneers versus Swordsmen, Swordsmen versus Knights, Knights versus Pikaneers? (The first in the pairs looses, the latter wins, but which one is best?)
- is it allowed to trick your adversary or not, are you allowed to use your surroundings, your survival instincts or/and your intellect?
- are you allowed to bring your cat familiar to the fight? May you use your arcane/divine spellcasting or special abilities to enhance/heal yourself, conjure helpers? btw, Xykon is rather capable in melee, what with his strength bonus. Even inside an antimagic field he might be able to seriously threaten a lot of good and capable melee fighters we've seen - in melee.
- underwater, while flying or in a burning building?
- etc.

The only ranking I can image is "which melee fighter is very hard to imagine being defeated by which other melee fighter if he doesn't have several substantial disadvantages compared to his usual match-ups"
For example:
MitD vs Enor: MitD wins in all cases if not for a very strange chain of luck in favor of Enor.
Tarquin vs Bozzok: Tarquin wins (one-on-one situation)
Mr Scruffy vs Evisceratus: Scruffinator always victorious.
continue yourself...

[Emulgator]

Using the tier system, given similar equipment to players, no magic:


Epic Tier: Soon, Kraagor, possibly Tarquin, possibly Julio Scoundrel (drama says Tarquin would kill him, therefore lower than Tarquin.)
Master Tier: Thog, Miko pre fall(with Lay on hands, and Smite Evil), Roy
High Tier: Bozzak, O'Chul, Enor(with breath weapon), Lien, Belkar
Mid Tier: Crystal, Miko post fall, Ganji, Hinjo
Low tier: Elan, Durkon Thundershield, Nale
Unclasified: Horace Greenhilt, MITD

Note: with combat and healing magic Durkon goes to High Tier, somewhere near Enor. With all magic somewhere near Miko. Also Nale could Charm person'd at least Belkar, Enor and Crystal.

[dehro]

are we just assuming that all members of the order of the scribble are epic level?
of some we know..dorukaan, soon etc etc..but what about those like kraagor who were killed earlier? did they ever get to epic levels? I don't remember those panels particularily well..but I don't believe it was actually explicitly stated..so Kraagor could very well not be as high level as Soon Kim

[zimmerwald1915]

Sure it could be that or maybe he is just the 32 best swordsman of the last century. He is an experience adventurer with decades of experience, which have only served to boost his primary combat stat of charisma.:smallwink:
Something to remember about Julio: he is at least level 13 when he meets Elan, and probably higher. At that point, Julio has 10 Dashing Swordsman levels, and I can't think of a melee prestige class one can enter before level 4, barring poor design or shenanigans that most OOTS characters eschew.

[sr123]

In fact, I would even place Belkar below Durkon. Belkar's only proof of proficiency is having lots of attacks, which works great against hordes of low-CR mooks (hobgobs, thieves, etc) but does nothing against actual decent-level fighters. Holding out against Miko is just a bunch of tumbling against a severely-penalized fallen insane Paladin.

[Spacewolf]

In fact, I would even place Belkar below Durkon. Belkar's only proof of proficiency is having lots of attacks, which works great against hordes of low-CR mooks (hobgobs, thieves, etc) but does nothing against actual decent-level fighters. Holding out against Miko is just a bunch of tumbling against a severely-penalized fallen insane Paladin.

When he fought miko she wasnt fallen, insane etc she was at full strength while he was badly wounded he still managed to knock her out with a lead sheet

[dehro]

Miko: causing controversy from beyond the grave... how novel :smallbiggrin:

[Emulgator]

And he hold his own against Bozzok and Crystal, and then took her down to 0 HP

[zimmerwald1915]

And he hold his own against Bozzok and Crystal, and then took her down to 0 HP
At which point, it bears mentioning, Belkar was around level 15 and not above level 16. Crystal at that point was level 15. Haley was shown to be level 15 during the Thieves Guild arc, and Crystal was of the same level as Haley before being killed. If she's resurrected she'll be one level lower than Haley. Bozzok, meanwhile, was at least level 19. He had to have at least four more Rogue levels than Haley in order to flank her.

[silvadel]

The best swordsman in the land is a woman -- Serini.

(If the scribble were all about the same level when they broke up, they all went to guard gates and retire. She however kept on a truckin -- the adventuring life for her -- who knows what level she managed to reach by now?)

[Anarion]

Julio made #32 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html)on a list of the top 100 swordmen of the century, he should be ranked higher than Roy at the very least and probably anyone on the list that isn't epic.

Roy as he is now probably would make the list, as would Tarquin (who, quite frankly, might be on the list already, we don't know).


The best swordsman in the land is a woman -- Serini.

(If the scribble were all about the same level when they broke up, they all went to guard gates and retire. She however kept on a truckin -- the adventuring life for her -- who knows what level she managed to reach by now?)

I like this theory, although as a rogue Serini is never going to be the best in a 1 on 1 bout in an open field. She excels in dense terrain where she can strike, hide, then strike again. She's also a much better archer than most of these other characters, so I don't see why she would need to close to melee range right off the bat when she can force everyone else to come to her.

In terms of "what would happen if two people just stood in place and hit each other with weapons"

MitD
Kraagor
Soon
Serini
Tarquin
pre-fall Miko (if she makes judicious use of her healing and gets all her magic gear)
Thog/Roy (nearly even, probably depends on specific gear)
Julio Scoundrel
O-chul after gaining levels
Belkar
post fall Miko
Bozzok
Lien after gaining levels
Hinjo
Lien and O-chul before gaining levels
Crystal
Durkon
Elan

Unclassified: Horace Greenhilt (near top of scale, above Roy for sure but not enough info).

[aldeayeah]

At which point, it bears mentioning, Belkar was around level 15 and not above level 16. Crystal at that point was level 15. Haley was shown to be level 15 during the Thieves Guild arc, and Crystal was of the same level as Haley before being killed. If she's resurrected she'll be one level lower than Haley. Bozzok, meanwhile, was at least level 19. He had to have at least four more Rogue levels than Haley in order to flank her.

He also defeated the Eye of Fear and Flame in a single round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html).

[silvadel]

Once you get high enough to be able to "Hide in Plain Sight" that little difference between a true fighting class and a rogue starts to go away, considering that sneak attack damage keeps going up.

Plus I think Serini retired at least 10 if not 20 or 30 levels higher than the rest of the order if she ever retired at all.

[Feathersnow]

Roy as he is now probably would make the list, as would Tarquin (who, quite frankly, might be on the list already, we don't know).



I like this theory, although as a rogue Serini is never going to be the best in a 1 on 1 bout in an open field. She excels in dense terrain where she can strike, hide, then strike again. She's also a much better archer than most of these other characters, so I don't see why she would need to close to melee range right off the bat when she can force everyone else to come to her.

In terms of "what would happen if two people just stood in place and hit each other with weapons"

MitD
Kraagor
Soon
Serini
Tarquin
pre-fall Miko (if she makes judicious use of her healing and gets all her magic gear)
Thog/Roy (nearly even, probably depends on specific gear)
Julio Scoundrel
O-chul after gaining levels
Belkar
post fall Miko
Bozzok
Lien after gaining levels
Hinjo
Lien and O-chul before gaining levels
Crystal
Durkon
Elan

Unclassified: Horace Greenhilt (near top of scale, above Roy for sure but not enough info).

You don't include Nale. This is correct because, since he is about lvl 16, probably doesn't have a XP penalty, and can cast dimension door as a sorceror (a fourth lvl spell), thus meaning he can't have, given his levels in rogue, a BAB of greater than 11. This is mediocre, and he isn't properly statted and equipped as a dedicated melee combatant.

[zegram 33]

no-one might agree with me here, but i dont think miko should really be on this list, since her powers are plot based to the extreme.
i mean, she fights evenly (hell, she BEATS) redcloak, and at that point he was presumably almost exactly the level he is now, since he hasnt Done much beyond the battle of azure city and wiping out the resistance (i guess shouting advice about darth v might constitue "beating" hi/r?)

but anyway, miko beats a fairly high level and (more importantly) savvy cleric.
when she's fallen, she's a fair bit above hinjo, who is himself pretty much one shotted by a single attack from redcloak)

however, while fallen and having taken very little damage, she is herself one shotted by roy.
durkon himself says the order would have killed her in a round or two way back then, and the fact that they dont is straight up attributed to plot necessity.

what im trying to say is, her strength varies wildly from point to point
she "tickles" the MITD, but since i cant recall anyonbe else attacking it, that doesnt mean a whole lot, thogs falling building might have only tickled it

[thepsyker]

Roy as he is now probably would make the list, as would Tarquin (who, quite frankly, might be on the list already, we don't know).

Possibly, but it is still unlikely that Roy would place higher than Julio since according to the Class and Geekery thread Roy is around 12th or 13th level, and as zimmerwald1915 pointed out Julio is at least 13th and probably higher given that he has 10 ranks in a combat based prestige class. So I still say that people are underrating Julio and overrating Roy in these lists.

[Flame of Anor]

Using the tier system, given similar equipment to players, no magic:


Epic Tier: Soon, Kraagor, possibly Tarquin, possibly Julio Scoundrel (drama says Tarquin would kill him, therefore lower than Tarquin.)
Master Tier: Thog, Miko pre fall(with Lay on hands, and Smite Evil), Roy
High Tier: Bozzak, O'Chul, Enor(with breath weapon), Lien, Belkar
Mid Tier: Crystal, Miko post fall, Ganji, Hinjo
Low tier: Elan, Durkon Thundershield, Nale
Unclasified: Horace Greenhilt, MITD

I think you'd better move Miko post-fall up to High Tier. She was seriously curb-stomping Hinjo before Roy stepped in.

[zimmerwald1915]

what im trying to say is, her strength varies wildly from point to point
she "tickles" the MITD, but since i cant recall anyonbe else attacking it, that doesnt mean a whole lot, thogs falling building might have only tickled it
Belkar attacked MitD soon after the Battle for Azure City, with his typical Belkar rage-face and growl, and MitD didn't even register that anything was touching it.