Disguise Self question, 3.5

[Squidfist]

So I'm a little confused by the description of Disguised self.

First, they get to make a will save when 'interacting' with your glammer, does that mean simply looking at you, or do they have to touch you? I've asked my DM, and he says will save when they look at you, which is fine. But then the second affect makes no sense, by his description.

Disguise Self can be used to get a +10 to disguise checks. He says they still get to make a will save when looking at me, so my question is, what the hell is the point of this second feature? Why would anyone ever ever use it if they get a will save on sight? Wouldn't it be better to use it as an illusion so if they fail the save they don't get another, rather than "they failed the save, and get to roll again vs your new disguise check". That seems silly. I guess it'd make it so if they PASSED the check, they would still need to roll vs your unmodified disguise, but allowing them to re-roll fails seems like bad trade... even if you are getting +10.

Thoughts? Or is this correct, and I shouldn't expect more from a level 1 spell?

[ExemplarofAvg]

So I'm a little confused by the description of Disguised self.

First, they get to make a will save when 'interacting' with your glammer, does that mean simply looking at you, or do they have to touch you? I've asked my DM, and he says will save when they look at you, which is fine. But then the second affect makes no sense, by his description.

Interacting means just what it says, if they Interact with you, just looking at someone isn't interacting, but having a conversation and physical action is usually what our group uses. We've done by sight a couple of times but that's been situational, i.e. The guards are checking people because we just escaped from jail, or we are behaving against the social norms of the town or city. Unless they are trying to find something off about you I'd vote no will save for just looking at you. But DM's say is usually final.


Disguise Self can be used to get a +10 to disguise checks. He says they still get to make a will save when looking at me, so my question is, what the hell is the point of this second feature? Why would anyone ever ever use it if they get a will save on sight? Wouldn't it be better to use it as an illusion so if they fail the save they don't get another, rather than "they failed the save, and get to roll again vs your new disguise check". That seems silly. I guess it'd make it so if they PASSED the check, they would still need to roll vs your unmodified disguise, but allowing them to re-roll fails seems like bad trade... even if you are getting +10.

Thoughts? Or is this correct, and I shouldn't expect more from a level 1 spell?

Yeah.. that's where I think this gets weird, Disguise is usually offset by Spot (sometimes sense motive if you're acting non-(Insert Race)-ish.)

I suppose if you're a Half-Elf and you disguised yourself as a Drow then there's your plus 10. Which might fool them, if you beat their spot checks. But if you tried to interact with them in any way then there's the will save to disbelieve that you are a drow.

That's just my two cents though.
Oh and never underestimate level 1 spells. Sometimes something small is exactly what you need. (Says my Elven Archer with a Bow of Permanent True Strike)

[Squidfist]

Thanks for your input. Interacting with something should be more than just "being seen", I agree.

[ericgrau]

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.


The observer has to study you carefully. So probably anyone suspicious or someone who talks with you for a little while, not even a quick casual conversation at the bar with someone who doesn't care who you are.

And likewise on disguise:


Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and it is opposed by others’ Spot check results. If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Spot checks. If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Spot checks.

...

If you are impersonating a particular individual, those who know what that person looks like get a bonus on their Spot checks according to the table below. Furthermore, they are automatically considered to be suspicious of you, so opposed checks are always called for.

Just saying hello is unlikely to trigger a spot check, but trying to get past a guard or going near someone who actually knows the person you are impersonating (if anyone) will trigger a spot check.

So in short you only roll checks against people who take a really good look at your face. Most people in town don't care, though the ones that do care are usually the ones you're trying to fool the most.

[Killer Angel]

Now that has been clarified that "to interact" is different from "looking at", obviously remains the second doubt.
With mundane disguise, it's a contest Disguise Vs Spot.
With disguise self, you'll have a contest Disguise +10 Vs Spot. But also a Will ST.

I wonder if it's really worth it...

[Feytalist]

With mundane disguise, it's a contest Disguise Vs Spot.
With disguise self, you'll have a contest Disguise +10 Vs Spot. But also a Will ST.

The will save simply affects the +10. So with a failed save, it's Disguise +10 vs. Spot. On a passed will save, you're still disguised, you just lose the +10 modifier.

Remember, NPC's aren't necessarily aware that they've just had to make a will save.

That's how I see it, anyway.

[Killer Angel]

The will save simply affects the +10. So with a failed save, it's Disguise +10 vs. Spot. On a passed will save, you're still disguised, you just lose the +10 modifier.


That's true, but they became aware of the illusion.

A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion
Suspicions should arise immediately...