The Breaking of the Order?

[The Succubus]

Hmmm.

I'm starting to wonder about the party dynamics at this stage. We know the Order of the Scribble tore itself apart due to internal conflict. I'm wondering whether we have the beginnings of it in the OotS.

Potential party breakers

1) V is now a mass murderer on a far bigger scale than even Belkar

2) V now has a demonic/diabloic Sword of Damocles over her head.

3) Belkar has an impedating date with the Grim Reaper and the possible percussions as to why he does not get raised. Remember what happened to Kraggor.

4) Haley brutally murdered Crystal in cold blood (Yes, I am aware that this is on a much lesser scale than the others and yes, it *might* be justified but let's not go there. PLEASE.)

5) Durkon also has an appointment with a mortuary slab


Is there the potential in the above for the Order to be irreversably broken, as their predecessors were?

[Pheldagriff]

I fear less about "the group is falling apart due to internal dispute" and more about "the group is dying one by one until no one is left anymore"
I have trouble envisioning the "happy ending" for elan with all that is happening lately.
right now, there isn't a glimmer of hope that could reasonable let us believe that the order will best Xykon.
I know they eventually will, most likely with help from the remaining Azurites (Rich mentioned that we haven't seen the last of O-Chul, yet), but Girard's gate is as good as lost already and I still don't see who should actually BEAT Xykon in the inevitable end-fight.

give us a ray of hope, Rich, just a small ray. the only obstacle that the order regularily overcomes is the linear guild, aside from that they just never earn a victory.

[RMS Oceanic]

This may be optimistic, but I think Roy won't allow it. He's had personal experience of what happens when previous generations don't do things properly (blood oath, anyone?), and he's obviously frustrated at Girard's paranoia making it more difficult for the good guys to defeat the bad guys. When the crisis is averted, assuming that the rifts and any surviving gates are still something that needs to be dealt with, Roy at least will strive to maintain a united team using all the different abilities at their disposal to protect them.

[Quild]

It's not that easy to blame V. She was trying to protect her mate and child, was mad with power, had scary evil whispers advising her, thought it would influence her and act as she was influenced...

Thereafter, V tries to make repentance. Right now, she's on the way to get her alignment back (if she indeed turned evil), she had character growth, she's trying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) (fifth panel on second page). Sure, the order isn't a deva knowing everything about V, but if V gets a chance to explain herself, they should understand. Especially if they learn what V did because... She tell it!

I don't want Belkar to die :(

Crystal's murder hardly matters here. It's not as she took Crystal's corpse in her bag so she can't be rezzed. She will be rezzed, Haley expect it. That's just how their particular relationship works :D.

Durkon's appointment with death could be in several centuries for what we know.

[LordRahl6]

Things are definitely on the down swing, but I wouldn't count the Order out yet. Remember that Team Evil and the Linear Guild have their own struggles at the moment as well. At the moment it may seem that the Order will have to give up Girard's Gate, but hope still exists with Kraagor's Gate. Also despite all of this we have the mystery of the World within World to solve.(Once V reveals it:smallbiggrin:)

[Morquard]

So far V thought "Oh buhuh, ok it was bad, but then it was BLACK DRAGONS, they're evil, so sure the soul-selling was stupid, but the familicide wasn't that terrible".
Now he notices that he might have killed far far more people, even good people than he thought, and not only dragons.

[Arancaytar]

5) Durkon also has an appointment with a mortuary slab

This one's a long shot. Whereas Belkar will "take his last breath EVER" within a year, Durkon will merely return to his homeland "posthumously". There's no time-frame, and an obvious resurrection loophole.

The rest stands. Crystal's death isn't really a party-breaking revelation, but V's genocide kind of is.

[Krim]

I fear less about "the group is falling apart due to internal dispute" and more about "the group is dying one by one until no one is left anymore"
I have trouble envisioning the "happy ending" for elan with all that is happening lately.
right now, there isn't a glimmer of hope that could reasonable let us believe that the order will best Xykon.
I know they eventually will, most likely with help from the remaining Azurites (Rich mentioned that we haven't seen the last of O-Chul, yet), but Girard's gate is as good as lost already and I still don't see who should actually BEAT Xykon in the inevitable end-fight.

give us a ray of hope, Rich, just a small ray. the only obstacle that the order regularily overcomes is the linear guild, aside from that they just never earn a victory.

The Order still has all its members, a +5 Undead Bane Greatsword, a list of most Xykon's spells, V may be able to cast Sunburst, Durkon is working on Mass Death Ward (so much for Energy Drain!, ), Roy is learning a feat that one-shots lv 9 clerics, they are aware that Xykon has fire inmunity, and Xykon's (now) only source of healing is plotting his demise.

Yes, Xykon is phenomenally powerful, but the Order is not defenseless by any means.

[Quild]

So far V thought "Oh buhuh, ok it was bad, but then it was BLACK DRAGONS, they're evil, so sure the soul-selling was stupid, but the familicide wasn't that terrible".
Now he notices that he might have killed far far more people, even good people than he thought, and not only dragons.

The familicide was something horrible, even if it had only stroke the dragons and half dragons we see when it's casted. What did V was evil. Really, really, really evil.

You're thinking as the paladins killing RC's family. Let's kill goblins, they're evil after all.

Even if V was acted in purpose of killing evil black dragons because they were evil and she had a way to do it(which wasn't her purpose), it would still have been a really evil way to proceed. RC after all, is acting for goblin's greater good and races equality. He's still evil.

[zimmerwald1915]

The Order still has all its members, a +5 Undead Bane Greatsword, a list of most Xykon's spells, V may be able to cast Sunburst, Durkon is working on Mass Death Ward (so much for Energy Drain!, ), Roy is learning a feat that one-shots lv 9 clerics, they are aware that Xykon has fire inmunity, and Xykon's (now) only source of healing is plotting his demise.
Belkar is, and Durkon might be, on a clock. The spell list might or might not be accurate, and is definately not complete. V is capable of casting Sunburst based on her level; that does not speak to the spell's presence in her spellbook. Mass Death Ward doesn't work. It's a far cry from a level 9 cleric to a level 27 lich sorcerer. The Greenhilt Sword, knowledge of Xykon's fire immunity, and Redcloak's treachery, I'll give you. The Order might be preparing (dare I say optimizing, in a limited fashion?) to fight Xykon, but they're beyond vulnerable at this point, especially to warm-goo-pouch-snuffing.

[LordRahl6]

Where does it say that Durkon will come home DEAD? I know his return will bring a great evil to the Dwarven people, but where does it say he will be dead. Is it the Kobold oracle?:smallannoyed:

[zimmerwald1915]

Where does it say that Durkon will come home DEAD? I know his return will bring a great evil to the Dwarven people, but where does it say he will be dead. Is it the Kobold oracle?:smallannoyed:
Yeah, the Oracle said Durkon'd come home "posthumously". He doesn't have to have stayed dead in between his dying and coming home, but he does have to have died some point before returning home.

[Krim]

Belkar is, and Durkon might be, on a clock. The spell list might or might not be accurate, and is definately not complete. V is capable of casting Sunburst based on her level; that does not speak to the spell's presence in her spellbook. Mass Death Ward doesn't work. It's a far cry from a level 9 cleric to a level 27 lich sorcerer. The Greenhilt Sword, knowledge of Xykon's fire immunity, and Redcloak's treachery, I'll give you. The Order might be preparing (dare I say optimizing, in a limited fashion?) to fight Xykon, but they're beyond vulnerable at this point, especially to warm-goo-pouch-snuffing.

Certainly, they are not yet prepared, but you can see that they have potential. Neither the IFCC nor Tarquin want Xykon to win, so expect this not to be the last match.

Most importantly, and I haven't pointed this out: Xykon understimates its own vulnerability. 200 HP is not going to last long (as in, not beyond the 2nd round) againts a high teens level party that out-maneouvers you. If you ever played Neverwinter Nights, you know what I'm saying

[fergo]

I have no idea what will happen next. Literally no idea.

Will V. keep what s/he did a secret? S/he could, pretty easily. None of the others have any reason to think that s/he may have had anything to do with the deaths.

So I don't want to speculate about the party splitting up. We know Durkon and Belkar are going to die, the latter (almost) certainly for good. Haley... well, I sincerely doubt that killing Crystal is going to haunt her now, even if the Thieves Guild is going to make another appearence (which is unlikely but possible, considering the implication of them being tied up with her dad being stuck on the Western Continent...).

Elan has a happy ending. A lot can happen in between now and this happy ending, but I don't think the Order being horrifically torn apart (permanently) is part of it. I may be wrong though, it's just a gut feeling, and I know something's going to happen regarding V.

Roy... Roy needs the party to stick together, more now than ever. V. is one of the most powerful members of his party. But I doubt very, very much he's still comfortable working with V. after learning what V's done. So I have no idea what'll happen there.

[Fish]

I believe the arc has been developing since Azure City fell.

Haley. She has a grudge match with Crystal, which we saw in Greysky. However, Ian has it in for Bozzok too — and Ian's mate Uncle Geoff with his missing leg seemed a wee bit disappointed that Bozzok wasn't dead. That missing leg remind you of anyone? Eagle Eye Pete, maybe?

Belkar. Thanks to his fake character development we might see him at ground zero of the Order's split. He's now (superficially) more useful than Vaarsuvius. The strain between them has been noted several times ("and that would be wrong") since Azure City.

Durkon. Since "posthumously" means "after burial"(cf exhume) I assume Rich meant "after you die." But Durkon has a scroll of Resurrection he's saving for an emergency — and who can cast it? That's not yet clear. It does bode ill for Durkon that dwarves are only considered honorable dead if they fall in battle, so perhaps Durkon isn't; that would give him some fresh developments. His return to the Dwarven homelands would be in disgrace (not to mention the prophecy of doom).

Roy. He was warned about a party member turning evil but ignored it; Eugene was entrusted to tell Roy but shan't. What will happen when Eugene haunts Roy as agreed, to tell him Xykon is coming?

Elan. Clearly this arc is his, and has to do with Durkon as well as Tarquin and Nale and maybe Haley and Ian. Nale's egomania will be inflamed if Elan defeats Tarquin when he himself could not; Nale seems more like a villain to survive til the utter end.

[LordRahl6]

Thanks guys you were right about the Durkon death and the Oracle bit. What I found interesting though was that the answer to V question involved him attacking the right individual in the right situation for all the wrong reasons with here's the kicker: four words which as a sentence cone out to "She calls it Familicide.":smalleek:

[Fish]

Oh dear. I just realized something. The IFCC wants conflict. Unnecessary, bloody conflict.

Doesn't this mean they want Tarquin dead? He's a stabilizing force. Prior to Tarquin the area was rife with conflict. We may be looking at the whole thing wrong — maybe the demons would be happy to see him go.

[Absol197]

Oh dear. I just realized something. The IFCC wants conflict. Unnecessary, bloody conflict.

Doesn't this mean they want Tarquin dead? He's a stabilizing force. Prior to Tarquin the area was rife with conflict. We may be looking at the whole thing wrong — maybe the demons would be happy to see him go.

And as we know, Evil is not one big happy family...

[ThePhantasm]

The Order has some trouble coming, sure, but in Team Evil Redcloak just killed Tsukiko and is amping up his plot against Xykon. In the Linear Guild Nale and Tarquin have now formed an uneasy alliance that is certain to end in disaster.

In fact, the only evil group that seems to have an upper hand right now is the IFCC...

[Bulldog Psion]

Oh dear. I just realized something. The IFCC wants conflict. Unnecessary, bloody conflict.

Doesn't this mean they want Tarquin dead? He's a stabilizing force. Prior to Tarquin the area was rife with conflict. We may be looking at the whole thing wrong — maybe the demons would be happy to see him go.

It really, really bugs me that some people assert over and over again that Tarquin is a stabilizing force and that before him, the area was rife with conflict.

Where is Tyrinaria? Where is Lord Tyrinar the Bloody?

During the course of the comic, we've seen that the conflict is chugging right along. Tarquin hasn't done a thing to stop it -- in fact, he's encouraging it, promoting it, causing it to continue, because it prevents a stable kingdom from emerging and possibly thwarting his plans.

For proof, see the result of the Empire of Blood's dragoons arriving at the ambassador's city (I forget which, was it the Free City of Doom?). Take a look at the other members of his party urging the Weeping King to further conquests.

He is NOT a stabilizing force. Objectively, within the world of the comic, he is constantly stirring up conflict, bloodshed, and the dissolution of nations. Violent dissolution. That's how he keeps putting a succession of cracked, stupid, or otherwise loony puppets who are easy to manipulate on a succession of transitory thrones.

If he allowed stability to exist, someone might no longer need him and his fellow puppeteers as advisers, and might create a sturdy monarchy or something similar, which would stand on its own. He needs tottering, disintegrating, yet violent temporary empires that need high level advisers to try to keep them going longer.

And he's done nothing but continue the pattern of conflict. He's exploiting it, it's true, but he hasn't stopped it and he doesn't WANT to stop it.

[Smolder]

I can see the danger of Roy's (over)reaction to V telling the truth, but if he went so far as to cast hir out of the group, the most likely result would be:

:xykon: "Hey, it's that wizard that attacked me in my own home. Where's your soul splice and your team of morons and meatshields now?"

:vaarsuvius: "Go ahead and kill me. I'm too distraught over being kicked out of the Order."

:xykon: "Oh, yeah? How'd that happen?"

:vaarsuvius: "I killed hundreds around the world with a single spell."

:xykon: "Welcome to Team Evil! Move over Red-Eye..."

:redcloak: *grumble*

.

[ThePhantasm]

:xykon: "Welcome to Team Evil! Move over Red-Eye..."

:redcloak: *grumble*


Red-Eye? ...

[silvadel]

First off if anyone would recruit V from team evil it would be Redcloak and they could do the gate without Xykon. Xykon would see V as too much of a potential rival.

Actually V and redcloak have more in common than either would like to admit.

As for a happy ending for Elan -- who is to say the Oracle or Tiamat was not LYING. I mean this is kind of a special case. The Oracle does NOT like the Order. Tiamat does NOT like the Order. The Oracle worked with Mama Black Dragon and was a lot more friendly obviously to her than to the OOTS.

[Skyrunner]

I don't think the trance-state pemits lies...

[skaddix]

First off if anyone would recruit V from team evil it would be Redcloak and they could do the gate without Xykon. Xykon would see V as too much of a potential rival.

Actually V and redcloak have more in common than either would like to admit.

As for a happy ending for Elan -- who is to say the Oracle or Tiamat was not LYING. I mean this is kind of a special case. The Oracle does NOT like the Order. Tiamat does NOT like the Order. The Oracle worked with Mama Black Dragon and was a lot more friendly obviously to her than to the OOTS.

I am pretty sure Elan got told about the happy ending before V slaughtered the Dragon population although the Oracle can see in the future so he might have seen that coming. But I believe the Giant stated that the Oracle always tells the truth.

[jidasfire]

As for a happy ending for Elan -- who is to say the Oracle or Tiamat was not LYING. I mean this is kind of a special case. The Oracle does NOT like the Order. Tiamat does NOT like the Order. The Oracle worked with Mama Black Dragon and was a lot more friendly obviously to her than to the OOTS.

This argument gets bandied about from time to time, but I don't buy it. The Oracle probably could lie realistically, but I think that Rich has been using him as more of a plot device to create foreshadowing and mysteries than to punish the Order with trickery and false hope.

All the author is telling us with Elan's prophecy is that the good guys will win out, but that doesn't mean their victory won't be fraught with its own share of losses. We can perhaps infer that Roy and Haley make it out alive, because Elan loves them both in particular, but that's about it. Elan thinks in narrative so strongly that even his own death would be perfectly fine if it meant his friends were okay.

As to the actual topic, I think the Order may indeed be at risk of sundering, just as the Scribblers did, but I don't think we'll have another broken party arc. I suspect that they'll work through whatever differences remain by the end, and even if they suffer casualties, they'll stand together in some form or fashion as they face Xykon and whatever other horrors await them.

[Smolder]

Red-Eye? ...

Do I really need to provide footnotes for Xykon calling Redcloak something other than Redcloak? It's practically canon.

If you insist... #831 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html)


First off if anyone would recruit V from team evil it would be Redcloak and they could do the gate without Xykon. Xykon would see V as too much of a potential rival.

A very good point, although we know that Xykon is more prone to conduct job-interviews.

The more that I think about it... the more I think you've hit it dead on.

Roy kicks V out of the Order.
V is recruited by X and RC.
RC betrays X.
V takes the place of X in the ritual.

[cloudland]

I wouldn't put the Oracle into the weasel side at all. Sure he don't like the Order, but he still even tried to answer truthfully question from people who can't even speak Common (Haley and Blackwing), or even try to point out to Roy that he might be asking the wrong question. He's probably one of those lawful type who would not lie (under various definition of lie), but simply using other antagonistic means if he want some payback.

[ti'esar]

Honestly, I agree that it's hard to see how the Order can take on Xykon at the moment. And as far as comments on Redcloak's treachery go, sympathetic motives or not he may be an even bigger threat to the world.

But I think we may very well be looking at the Linear Guild's last hurrah. Nale is quite possibly doomed - too many people want him dead and I think he's evaded near-certain doom one time too many already. Tarquin, while infinitely more competent, grossly overestimates his overall role in the story - as I've said before, I suspect he may very well wind up crushed by Xykon in a demonstration of just who the real BBEG is. Thog - one of the LG's "core" members - may already be gone; I have a hunch that his current Schrodinger's Half-Orc status may be a way to write him out without unnecessarily angering his fans.

The group as a whole is far more likely to splinter then then the Order at this moment, and it's possible they may be coming to the end of their narrative purpose - once they moved from recurring sidequest villains into the main plot, the "protection" that largely comedic villains get may have come to an end.

[Bulldog Psion]

I concur that the Order doesn't have a prayer against Xykon at the moment, and possibly never will in a head-on confrontation. "Dude is frickin' scary."

I do suspect that Xykon is going to kill Tarquin somewhere in the fray over the current gate, however. The whole Linear Guild may get it, in fact -- they may be the Order's "stand-ins" for the role of Lich Punching Bags.