Fiend of Possession + Vow of Poverty help

[Igneel]

Hellow playgrounders, time for a build question for an upcoming evil campaign I'm joining.

The 10 level build in question is the following;
Race- Kaorti (once was human) from Fiend Folio for 2 HD/2 LA to get the Outsider/Evil Subtype requirement out of the way.
Base Class- 1 level in Beguiler for Hide, Knowledge (arcana), and an additional +2 to Will at a total of +5 requirement.
PrC- Fiend of Possession 5 (sadly the FF version, not my own...)

Now, outside of the usual 'what feats should I take' question, the main reason why I started this thread is because of a single feat I'm taking at the okay of the DM. That feat is the Vow of Poverty fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428) done by Drolyt. Obviously like its predecesor its a Vow of Poverty so I can't make use of magical or masterwork items. Besides the bonuses/abilities/etc I get that are different from the original, Drolyt also has this Special note at the bottom of the feat description.


Special: You may only own what you can carry, and only what is necessary to your survival (including clothing, food, and shelter), or to your trade. For example, a fighter may own a weapon, a thief thieves' tools, a wizard a spellbook, or a bard an instrument. At any rate you can never own more than 100 GP worth of items, and none of your possessions can be masterwork or magical in nature. If you are good aligned then any surplus wealth must be donated to the poor, if you are evil aligned you must destroy it in a sacrifice to a dark god or archfiend, and if you are neutral you may choose either option. If you gain a reward, such as treasure, while working/adventuring alone or in a party, you must donate/destroy your share of the reward as soon as is reasonable or lose all benefits of this feat until you do. If you use any masterwork or magical items then you lose the benefits of this feat until you make an atonement, though you can have others use magic items to your benefit without losing the benefits of this feat.

Emphasis mine.

The biggest problem seems to be that we are currently having a bit of a tussle about the definition of 'Owning' and 'Using' while I am riding inside either a person or item. To what extent does one not 'use or own' an magical/masterwork item for example when its effectively being used as my 'body', or while my host wields said items for example?
In my defense, I don't think I'm at least technically using the hosts items while I'm not in control as they are still in his possession. The items I can't as definitively defend against.

So I guess what I'm asking is for some lawyer-like help in arguing whether I would be breaking my Vow of Poverty by possessing a masterwork/magical item or a person that uses said items.

Is going Vow of Poverty even worth it, or should I just go for another build?

[Squidfist]

Holy crap! I thought Vow of Poverty was already really powerful, but that "fix" makes it quite a bit more broken, IMO. +8 AC at level 3? Really? A monk / druid in full plate (with no weight, ACP, or max dex) at level 3 is a little concerning... and he didn't even take away the good stuff, like combat enhancement at 4.

Vow of poverty is limited in certain ways for very specific reasons, and there is a very clear-cut explanation for what a character can "own or use" on Wizards. Essentially, nothing. You can't borrow an item, activate a wand, hold potions, although you can accept potions when offered to you. You can't even have a spellbook.

I'd say the best way to lawyer this would be to apply role-playing logic. Your bonuses are given by a god who likes your dedication to being "good", or even "evil" for the variant. Presumably, the vow works by you relying on your god for everything, rather than equipment, forming a special bond. Would your diety care? 99% of the time, I'd say yes. I mean, how insulting would it be for someone to make a vow, get beefed up, and then go "but your gift isn't good enough, Mr. Deity sir, I need to use this thing over here".

Although, if your DM doesn't see a problem with this vow of poverty variant, maybe he'll say your source of power doesn't really give two poops.

[OracleofSilence]

Well actually that "+8 AC" will only give your monk druid +4, since the Armor (+4) part of the AC bonus will not apply, would still have only 22 AC. This is not all that great. Also:


At any rate you can never own more than 100 GP worth of items, and none of your possessions can be masterwork or magical in nature. If you are good aligned then any surplus wealth must be donated to the poor, if you are evil aligned you must destroy it in a sacrifice to a dark god or archfiend, and if you are neutral you may choose either option. If you gain a reward, such as treasure, while working/adventuring alone or in a party, you must donate/destroy your share of the reward as soon as is reasonable or lose all benefits of this feat until you do. If you use any masterwork or magical items then you lose the benefits of this feat until you make an atonement, though you can have others use magic items to your benefit without losing the benefits of this feat.

Your hypothetical character could not even own fullplate, since it costs 1000gp.

The issue is that the benefits you can get from those expensive magic items are FAR better then the benefits you get from VoP even this one.

Now, more on topic.

It seems to be fairly specific. However, if you could argue that the character you were "riding" was still autonomous (which they are not to my recollection) then they could still use the items. However, this clearly violates the intent of the feat, and possibly even the rules, as i seem to recall that your horse could not have magical barding w/ VoP.

[Squidfist]

Well actually that "+8 AC" will only give your monk druid +4, since the Armor (+4) part of the AC bonus will not apply, would still have only 22 AC. This is not all that great. Also:



Your hypothetical character could not even own fullplate, since it costs 1000gp.

The issue is that the benefits you can get from those expensive magic items are FAR better then the benefits you get from VoP even this one.

Now, more on topic.

It seems to be fairly specific. However, if you could argue that the character you were "riding" was still autonomous (which they are not to my recollection) then they could still use the items. However, this clearly violates the intent of the feat, and possibly even the rules, as i seem to recall that your horse could not have magical barding w/ VoP.

What? Which AC doesn't stack with monk armor bonus?

Monk armor is specifically an unspecified type. It DOES stack with mage armor, and shield spell. It specifies you lose the Wiz to AC + monk bonus AC when wearing armor, because you're not trained in armor... but the AC bonus granted by Mage Armor doesn't PUT you in armor, and there is nothing specified about that bonus not stacking with an armor BONUS, just not armor.

Also, the big +4 AC boost from VoP is an "exalted armor bonus", it doesn't mention what it does / does not stack with, and I'm sure it's exalted for the purposes of stacking on top of other sources.

+2 natural armor, and +2 deflection stack with everything mentioned as well... so a level 3 monk with 16 wiz and 14 dex would have 23 AC. Before things like size, and additional natural armor (the natural armor granted by VoP specifically mentions that it increases existing NA bonus if you have it).

You don't think a level 3 medium monk with 23 AC is exceptional?

[Squidfist]

Oh derp, I think I missed the point a bit.

[OracleofSilence]

Force Armor (Su): At 1st level you gain a +4 armor bonus to AC. This bonus increases to +5 at 3rd level, and increases by +1 every three levels thereafter. This bonus does not apply to touch attacks, but does apply to incorporeal touch attacks.

This is pretty specifically an ARMOR bonus. so it does not stack with the nonexistent armor.

Also, the high AC is great. Really, it is. However, you now cannot use metal items (druid), own a total collection of equipment with value over 100gp, and have the weapon proficiency list from hell. So, your AC would be almost all you got. Neither the original VoP OR the Homebrewed version that can Igneel is using, give any real benefit to attacks, with the exception of your enhancement bonus. I am not saying its a bad option, it just is not as good as the magic lewts.

[Squidfist]

This is pretty specifically an ARMOR bonus. so it does not stack with the nonexistent armor.

Also, the high AC is great. Really, it is. However, you now cannot use metal items (druid), own a total collection of equipment with value over 100gp, and have the weapon proficiency list from hell. So, your AC would be almost all you got. Neither the original VoP OR the Homebrewed version that can Igneel is using, give any real benefit to attacks, with the exception of your enhancement bonus. I am not saying its a bad option, it just is not as good as the magic lewts.

Ah, I guess that's one way the home brew variant did it right... the unaltered VoP feat gives you an exalted bonus, which does stack with pretty well everything.

The exalted feats granted by the true VoP can give you a nice bonus to attacks if you're unarmed. A +1 to attacks and damage that adds on a D4 if the creature is evil (on top of the +1 from class progression, and weapon focus / spec). You could mash some peoples pretty efficiently at lower levels, at least.

With the variant, he can use any weapon he wants, so long as it isn't masterwork/ magical / expensive, from what I understand. So could just take monkey grip and use a large nonmagical weapon for big dice.

[Necroticplague]

Technically, a FOP never uses items on a person, unless he possessed (class ability) them, and even then you could lawyer your way out of it. Let's say you possess a magic item and get it to activate, like say... an immovable rod. Did you activate it? No, you had it activate itself. Same goes for if you possess someone then have them use an item on their person. You aren't using the item, your making them do so.Plus, you aren't really "owning" it, since at its core, it's someone elses stuff.. Plus, the "as soon as reasonable" and "donate/destroy" are pretty vague, and leave plenty of wiggle room as to holding on to wealth. Simply "donate" it to your party members, and decide it would be "reasonable" to give back after your done adventuring. Or, you "donate" it to your party members, and they can "reward" it back to you.So does defining what is "necessary for survival."When you're an adventurer, you require much different things from the normal person. Certainly breaks the intent, but keeps with the letter of the word.

[Igneel]

Technically, a FOP never uses items on a person, unless he possessed (class ability) them, and even then you could lawyer your way out of it. Let's say you possess a magic item and get it to activate, like say... an immovable rod. Did you activate it? No, you had it activate itself. Same goes for if you possess someone then have them use an item on their person. You aren't using the item, your making them do so.Plus, you aren't really "owning" it, since at its core, it's someone elses stuff.. Plus, the "as soon as reasonable" and "donate/destroy" are pretty vague, and leave plenty of wiggle room as to holding on to wealth. Simply "donate" it to your party members, and decide it would be "reasonable" to give back after your done adventuring. Or, you "donate" it to your party members, and they can "reward" it back to you.So does defining what is "necessary for survival."When you're an adventurer, you require much different things from the normal person. Certainly breaks the intent, but keeps with the letter of the word.

This answers mostly what I was asking. Basically me along with another player were going to team up, and since the other player has magic items I was arguing that technically until I can Control Creature (class ability) I won't technically even be able to have my say on whether he uses a certain item or not.
Not even technically thinking about just riding all the time on my friend or his items, just as a temporary thing since I'm a Kaotri that gets hurt by being on the Material Plane unless I'm riding something or in a Resin-Safe house.

Also seems that me and the Dm have come upon a general agreement in that as long as don't use the items while in control I largely don't break the spirit of the feat.

Thanks for your opinions, but I'm willing to take more on the subject as it does seem contradictory to what was intended.