Paradigm Feats (3.5 Teamwork Feats, PEACH)

[NeoSeraphi]

Teamwork Feats
Teamwork feats are special. You may only have one [Teamwork] feat, and it draws on the power of other players with the same feat in order to work. However, if you are simply near another ally, you can draw upon the feat and gain half of its listed benefits. You must be within 100 ft of at least two allies with the same feat to receive the full effect of the feat. You must be within 100 feet of at least one ally to receive an effect from the feat at all.



Cerberus [Teamwork]
Prerequisite: Must have a Base Attack Bonus equal to your Character Level
Benefit: You receive a bonus on all weapon damage rolls equal to your Base Attack Bonus.


Tri-Disaster [Teamwork]
Prerequisites: Able to cast spells
Benefit: You receive a bonus to hit point damage from all spells you cast that deal hit point damage equal to your caster level.


Tortoise [Teamwork]
Prerequisites: Must not have any hit dice that are below d10
Benefit: You gain damage reduction equal to your hit dice. This damage reduction is not overcome by any weapon type, material or alignment. This damage reduction stacks with similar damage reduction (such as from the barbarian class feature or from wearing adamantine armor) but not other forms of damage reduction (such as the DR provided by the stoneskin spell or the lycanthropy template).


Infiltration [Teamwork]
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (Enchantment, Transmutation, Necromancy, or Conjuration)
Benefit: Whenever you cast a spell whose only effect is to inflict a penalty on one or multiple rolls or checks (such as crushing despair) or to inflict a negative condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm) (such as flesh to stone), you receive a bonus to the DC of the saving throw equal to 1/3 your caster level, rounded up (max of +7 at 20 CL).


Salvation [Teamwork]
Prerequisites: Able to cast cure light wounds as a spell
Benefit: Whenever you cast a cure or heal spell, you heal an additional number of hit points equal to twice your caster level for that spell.


Rapid Growth [Teamwork]
Prerequisites: Able to cast spells
Benefit: Any spell you cast on yourself, an ally, or multiple allies with a duration other than instantaneous or permanent automatically receives the benefits of the Extend Spell feat, with no increase in casting time or spell level. The benefit of this feat stacks with all similar spell duration increases, including the Extend Spell and Persist Spell feats.

[Noctis Vigil]

These are...strong. Especially Rapid Growth; I can easily see that one in particular getting horribly abused. I love the concept, though, and other than that, they all look good. I would definitely take Salvation on any Cleric I play by default; that bonus healing is indispensable to a HealBot.

[NeoSeraphi]

Just a quick bump to see if I can get any more feedback on these.

[Cieyrin]

Salvation's math is wrong, as it forgets that the originating cleric's bonus for just casting Cure Critical Wounds, so it should be +36.

Otherwise, these seem to work out reasonably well. They scale to stay relevant both in terms of ECL and having multiple copies. Cerberus and Tortoise prereqs somewhat restricts multiclassing far more than the other Teamwork feats do but I suppose the character will just have to keep that in mindif they dip outside the required parameters.

[NeoSeraphi]

Salvation's math is wrong, as it forgets that the originating cleric's bonus for just casting Cure Critical Wounds, so it should be +36.

Good catch. Fixing.



Otherwise, these seem to work out reasonably well. They scale to stay relevant both in terms of ECL and having multiple copies. Cerberus and Tortoise prereqs somewhat restricts multiclassing far more than the other Teamwork feats do but I suppose the character will just have to keep that in mindif they dip outside the required parameters.

I like to think of them as small incentives to stay true to their character archetype. If you're playing a tough character, and you stuck with fighter/barbarian through all 20 levels, you're going to be tougher than the guy who caved and dipped into paladin or rogue or duskblade for some extra damage/options. Tortoise can help reflect that.

Same with Cerberus. Focus on melee combat your entire career, and you get access to a special feat that helps keep your constant damage more relevant (not by itself, but when you combine it with Power Attack and Smiting and other bonuses, you're on par with the rogue, which is good).

[Wyntonian]

One of the things I hear a lot regarding balance is that if you can't imagine someone reasonably taking it, or can't imagine them not taking it, it's probably not all that balanced.

I dunno, these get props for being limited to one per character to counteract being freaking awesome, but if most players requested use of this, I'd have to think four times about it. They're just that good.

[NeoSeraphi]

One of the things I hear a lot regarding balance is that if you can't imagine someone reasonably taking it, or can't imagine them not taking it, it's probably not all that balanced.

I dunno, these get props for being limited to one per character to counteract being freaking awesome, but if most players requested use of this, I'd have to think four times about it. They're just that good.

Do you like the way they're implemented though? The feats themselves give limited support to a character for a certain style of fighting, but then if every member of the party gets the feat, and they all fight using the same style, they complement each other. Isn't that how it should be? A group of blasters should get more damage in than one blaster and a healer and a BCer, while the same creature who gets bombarded with spells like fear and great thunderclap and deep slumber should have a harder time resisting each one. At least, that's what I think.

[Cieyrin]

I like to think of them as small incentives to stay true to their character archetype. If you're playing a tough character, and you stuck with fighter/barbarian through all 20 levels, you're going to be tougher than the guy who caved and dipped into paladin or rogue or duskblade for some extra damage/options. Tortoise can help reflect that.

Paladin has full BAB and d10 HD, though, so I don't think there's much caving go on there. I'm more interested in how they multiclassed Barbarian and Paladin, as I can't think of a good way outside Ordered Chaos, which may get you hit with a DMG. :smallwink:


A group of blasters should get more damage in than one blaster and a healer and a BCer, while the same creature who gets bombarded with spells like fear and great thunderclap and deep slumber should have a harder time resisting each one. At least, that's what I think.

There's a Teamwork Benefit that does exactly that, Spell Barrage, though it only works with Ref-based AoEs, based off of timing the blasts so that as the targets dodge one blast they get caught by another.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Firstly, your numbers imply these stack with ONE other iteration of the feat, not 2. 2 other stacking iterations would allow the number to triple, but your math always ends at x2.

That said, each and every one of these is overpowered to the extent that I'd never allow them in my games. Take Tortoise, for example. One feat, spent by the fighter, gives the ENTIRE PARTY DR 5/-, and the fighter DR 10/-. That's an effective 30 damage negated per round assuming a 5 man party, which is insane.

Feats just shouldn't give THIS big a benefit, let alone to the whole party.

[NeoSeraphi]

Firstly, your numbers imply these stack with ONE other iteration of the feat, not 2. 2 other stacking iterations would allow the number to triple, but your math always ends at x2.

The benefit gives you 1, and your allies +.5. So three feats would give you +1, +.5 from one ally, and +.5 from the second ally, for a total of +2 to you, and +2 to each of your allies.



That said, each and every one of these is overpowered to the extent that I'd never allow them in my games. Take Tortoise, for example. One feat, spent by the fighter, gives the ENTIRE PARTY DR 5/-, and the fighter DR 10/-. That's an effective 30 damage negated per round assuming a 5 man party, which is insane.

It doesn't give the entire party DR 5/-. It gives all members of the party who are not the fighter and have no hit dice below d10 DR 5/-. Generally speaking, you will have at least one 3/4 BAB d8 HD character in the group, and probably one 1/2 BAB d4 HD arcane caster in the group. They do not gain the benefits of that feat at all.

If your entire party has no hit dice below d10s, then you're all melee. And you need DR, badly.



Feats just shouldn't give THIS big a benefit, let alone to the whole party.

+10 damage at level 20 from one feat isn't that bad. It's equivalent to the benefit of -5 Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, except that it stacks with that. *shrugs*

+10 healing also is not that big of a deal at level 20. Why do you care if healing spells give more hit points per casting, exactly? Healing is already an underpowered style in D&D anyway.

+10 damage with a blast spell. Really not that big of an issue, in my opinion. Since you're already dishing out 40d6 at this point with disintegrate, an extra +10 damage isn't going to be that noticeable.

Now, Tortoise, Infiltration, and Rapid Growth are more powerful, I admit.

Increased DCs is always nice, for save-or-loses. However, casters tend to be pretty damn feat-starved, and it already requires you to burn a feat on Spell Focus, so I think Infiltration (with its end +4 DC to save-or-sucks) is pretty decent. After all, you get the same benefit from Vow of Peace, against a certain group of creatures at least.

DR as a feat is trickier. But really, melee needs the help. Especially a party of melee, since there won't be a healer. (As far as I can remember, the only class that can heal and has d10 hit dice is the paladin).

And Rapid Growth, well, buffing is good. It encourages teamwork and party unity, as well as the caster not showing off and destroying the world without giving his party members a chance to shine.

[NeoSeraphi]

Paladin has full BAB and d10 HD, though, so I don't think there's much caving go on there. I'm more interested in how they multiclassed Barbarian and Paladin, as I can't think of a good way outside Ordered Chaos, which may get you hit with a DMG. :smallwink:


Er...I meant...um...swordsage. :smallredface:



There's a Teamwork Benefit that does exactly that, Spell Barrage, though it only works with Ref-based AoEs, based off of timing the blasts so that as the targets dodge one blast they get caught by another.

"Teamwork Benefit"? :smallconfused: The heck is that? I've never heard of anything like that. Is that a PF thing or something? This is a 3.5 homebrew feat, Cieryin.

[TheFallenOne]

Teamwork Benefits are in PHB II.

I have to agree with Djinn. The benefit of most of these feats is way out of line.



The feats themselves give limited support to a character for a certain style of fighting, but then if every member of the party gets the feat, and they all fight using the same style, they complement each other. Isn't that how it should be? A group of blasters should get more damage in than one blaster and a healer and a BCer, while the same creature who gets bombarded with spells like fear and great thunderclap and deep slumber should have a harder time resisting each one. At least, that's what I think.

This is what you wanted to make, but certainly not what you ended up with. If you want Teamwork feats, then the base effect for just the character with the feat, and no one else having the feat, should be limited. Very limited.
Instead, most of those base effects are overpowered even without taking the synergies and group effects into account.

I mean really, DR x/- equal to 1/2 HD? For a single feat? There are two three-feat lines ending with DR 5(Mark of Xoriat and Reflexive Psychosis) and those are some of the best ways to get DR through feats. Think about that for a moment.

Salvation - base effect alone is vastly superior to Augment Healing.

Infiltration - there's a reason they nerfed Spell Focus from +2 DC to +1 in 3.5. This one gives +4 on level 20(not including any CL enhancers). And 'debuffs only' is way less restrictive than single school of magic only.

Rapid Growth - there's a reason Extend Spell is a metamagic spell with +1 level increase you know?


These need a major overhaul, starting with cutting the base effect down to a bare minimum so they actually are about teamwork.
If a solo character would even consider taking one of these, you did it wrong.

[Cieyrin]

"Teamwork Benefit"? :smallconfused: The heck is that? I've never heard of anything like that. Is that a PF thing or something? This is a 3.5 homebrew feat, Cieryin.

Teamwork Benefits have been around since late 3.5, appearing in DMG2, Dungeonscape and Heroes of Battle. They're designed such that a group of heroes who have worked together for a long time can reap rewards for their efforts. Each Benefit requires a Team Leader, who has to meet the most prerequisites, and the rest of the Team Members have to meet a much more minimal one. Each Benefit doesn't require the same Team Member to be the Leader, so you can have one character lead one benefit and a different one lead another 2 or however you wish to manage it. If all prereqs and the training time is met, you gain the Benefit.

Considering each of those books have pieces in them that are well known (Sudden Stunning, Factotum, War Weaver), it annoys me to no end how many people are unaware of Teamwork Benefits and what they can provide to the party if players can agree to team up to get them online. They don't take up feat slots, either, so if you meet the prereqs, anyways, it's free stuff to be had.

[NeoSeraphi]

Teamwork Benefits have been around since late 3.5, appearing in DMG2, Dungeonscape and Heroes of Battle.

Ah. I don't have any of those books.



They're designed such that a group of heroes who have worked together for a long time can reap rewards for their efforts. Each Benefit requires a Team Leader, who has to meet the most prerequisites, and the rest of the Team Members have to meet a much more minimal one. Each Benefit doesn't require the same Team Member to be the Leader, so you can have one character lead one benefit and a different one lead another 2 or however you wish to manage it. If all prereqs and the training time is met, you gain the Benefit.

Seems...complicated.



Considering each of those books have pieces in them that are well known (Sudden Stunning, Factotum, War Weaver), it annoys me to no end how many people are unaware of Teamwork Benefits and what they can provide to the party if players can agree to team up

Er...Well, I've heard of the factotum, but Heroes of Battle and the DMG II are actually two of the least-talked about books I know of. Even on the 3.5 forums.

Anyway, I don't have the books, can't read up on the rules of the Teamwork Benefits, so Teamwork feats it is.


I mean really, DR x/- equal to 1/2 HD? For a single feat? There are two three-feat lines ending with DR 5(Mark of Xoriat and Reflexive Psychosis) and those are some of the best ways to get DR through feats. Think about that for a moment.

I think about it and I say "DR 5/- is not enough to be useful to a 20th level character", especially if it costs you 3 feats. If you're going to spend a feat to get some DR, it should be noticeable.


Salvation - base effect alone is vastly superior to Augment Healing.

Yes, and Augment Healing is generally considered to be a terrible feat, so that's not really an issue in my opinion. After all, lesser vigor outpaces cure light wounds at higher levels. You are basically forced to use your higher level healing spells to even attempt to match the DPR of CR appropriate encounters. +10 isn't going to help much, but at least it gives you more noticeable effect from your lower level spells.

Also, Augment Healing outpaces Salvation's base effect starting at 11th level. An 11th level cleric gets to cast heal with an extra +12 hit points. A cleric with Salvation casts the same heal spell for an extra +5 hit points. How is that "vastly superior" again?

At 20th level, a cleric casts mass heal with an extra +18 hit points if he's got Augment Healing, or an extra +10 if he's got Salvation.


Infiltration - there's a reason they nerfed Spell Focus from +2 DC to +1 in 3.5. This one gives +4 on level 20(not including any CL enhancers). And 'debuffs only' is way less restrictive than single school of magic only.

I agree, Infiltration was a tricky one to balance, but I don't see how I can make the feat worth taking if I nerf it any lower than I already did.


Rapid Growth - there's a reason Extend Spell is a metamagic spell with +1 level increase you know?

Yes. And Extend Spell is, for most spells, +CL increments. This feat is +1/2 CL increments for +0 adjustment. Seems fair to me.

[TheFallenOne]

Also, Augment Healing outpaces Salvation's base effect starting at 11th level. An 11th level cleric gets to cast heal with an extra +12 hit points. A cleric with Salvation casts the same heal spell for an extra +5 hit points. How is that "vastly superior" again?

At 20th level, a cleric casts mass heal with an extra +18 hit points if he's got Augment Healing, or an extra +10 if he's got Salvation.

... Reread your OP. The feat says 'equal to your caster level', your examples here assume 1/2 CL. And with that, Salvation would outperform Augment Healing in both your examples.
Also, you make the mistake of only looking at the highest-level spells available for the character you use as an example.
20th level cleric with Augment Healing gets only +2 on a CLW. Salvation gives +20 on any healing spell, no cap or restrictions. Technically it would apply to the Cure Minor Wounds cantrip(!)


Let me repeat my most important point.


If a solo character would even consider taking one of these, you did it wrong.

This is the one thing you need to understand and act upon. If you want Teamwork feats, they have to require actually having a team to be worth the feat.
As it is, the base effect alone of most of them is too good for a single feat.

[NeoSeraphi]

... Reread your OP. The feat says 'equal to your caster level', your examples here assume 1/2 CL. And with that, Salvation would outperform Augment Healing in both your examples.
Also, you make the mistake of only looking at the highest-level spells available for the character you use as an example.
20th level cleric with Augment Healing gets only +2 on a CLW. Salvation gives +20 on any healing spell, no cap or restrictions. Technically it would apply to the Cure Minor Wounds cantrip(!)


Ah, whoops. Still, I don't see the problem here. 21 hit points with a 0 level spell at 20th level? Where 20 hit points is about 1/5th of the average DPR? Why not?



Let me repeat my most important point.



This is the one thing you need to understand and act upon. If you want Teamwork feats, they have to require actually having a team to be worth the feat.
As it is, the base effect alone of most of them is too good for a single feat.

Very well. Let's see. I guess I'll change the feats to provide their full benefit, but only while within 100 feet of at least two allies with the same feat.

Edit: There we go. Just as powerful, but doesn't work solo.

[absolmorph]

There's a problem with Rapid Growth (which I don't think is too powerful, personally).

The benefit of this feat stacks with all similar casting time increases, including the Extend Spell and Persist Spell feats.
The feat explicitly doesn't effect casting time. You meant spell duration.

[NeoSeraphi]

There's a problem with Rapid Growth (which I don't think is too powerful, personally).

The feat explicitly doesn't effect casting time. You meant spell duration.

Thank you, absolmorph. Fixing now.

[Steward]

Honestly, I've always felt like all feats should be on the level of these feats (not necessarily as powerful, but definitely useful throughout the life of a character). I think it's very disappointing that most feats in Core (barring metamagic feats and staples like Power Attack) are either only useful in implausible scenarios, as roadblocks on the path to other, better feats/classes, or merely provide a negligible bonus to an unimportant skill check. Since most characters only get a handful of feats, each one should be very helpful.

These feats are very strong, and maybe they should be toned down, but not to the point where they fall into the same category as 'Investigator' or 'Run'.

[NeoSeraphi]

These feats are very strong, and maybe they should be toned down, but not to the point where they fall into the same category as 'Investigator' or 'Run'.

Even if you actually have to have two allies who also meet the requirements spend a feat slot and stay within 100 feet of you to gain the effects? (Essentially meaning you have to have 3 casters in one party for Infiltration or Tri-disaster, 3 beatsticks in one party for Cerberus, 3 tanks in one party for Tortoise, and 3 divine casters/bards in one party for Salvation?)

Alright, if you really think that, how would you suggest I tone them down?

[Steward]

I said maybe. :smallbiggrin: Most of them seem fine to me, but only because I consider about 95% of Core feats so weak that they're virtually worthless. Multiple other people think they're too strong, and they might have a point.

But I'll give it a shot anyway.

Rapid Growth -- because of the sheer breadth of spells that it can cover, you might want to consider making the requirements a little tougher (have a specific caster level, maybe?) or limit it so that you can only apply it to a certain number of spells (either a flat rate or tied to your CL or the number of people with the feat in your group or something like that). It really is fairly versatile, since it even stacks with another metamagic feat.

[Noctis Vigil]

The problem with feats is that WotC gave them the shaft. Feats are limited, which means they should be universally useful. Frankly, most the issues with the Fighter are not that he gets no class abilities, but that no feats that are the equivalent to a class ability exist, with the sole exception of things like metamagic. These feats really don't help much. I don't know how it works at the tables you folks run, but any feat that requires 1.) other teammates to take it as well and 2.) other teammates to have a roughly similar build as you are NEVER USED, simply because the whole point of a many-man-team means covering all the bases. These feats were useful whether you had a buddy with them or not, as well as having a benefit on the whole party whether they had them or not, which in my mind means it was a teamwork feat done right (although the spell DC and spell duration ones were a little over the top power-wise). As for how they look now...they're good if you have large parties of similar class and build. I honestly don't see the reworks getting used at my table except on enemy parties to really bother my players, though.

Seriously, people, let's have less call of "nerf the feats" and more call for "fix WotC's screwup of feats in general".

[Tvtyrant]

I really like Tortoise, but I think it should stack with a Barbarian's DR. DR needs to be quite high to be useful at high levels.

[NeoSeraphi]

I really like Tortoise, but I think it should stack with a Barbarian's DR. DR needs to be quite high to be useful at high levels.

It does. I just accidentally chopped that part out during the rewrite, hold on, let me fix it...

[Barbarian MD]

Because you don't want wasted feats, I would encourage you to grant half a bonus when with an ally that does not have the feat, and the full bonus when there is one teammate with the same feat. If you're ever going to NOT get a bouns from a teamwork feat, it should only happen when you're all by yourself.

[Cieyrin]

Er...Well, I've heard of the factotum, but Heroes of Battle and the DMG II are actually two of the least-talked about books I know of. Even on the 3.5 forums.

You haven't looked, then, as I see Apprentice, Business Rules, Sudden Stunning and Vest of Legends (DMG2) pop up quite often and War Weaver (Heroes of Battle) gets tossed around as a high OP PrC about as often as Incantatrix and Shadowcraft Mage does, including a couple of handbooks built exclusively for how to best use War Weaver on both WotC and BG (now MinMaxBoards), so they aren't obscure at all. The Leadership feats in HoB show up time and again as well.


Because you don't want wasted feats, I would encourage you to grant half a bonus when with an ally that does not have the feat, and the full bonus when there is one teammate with the same feat. If you're ever going to NOT get a bouns from a teamwork feat, it should only happen when you're all by yourself.

I could agree to that. Encourages Teamwork without dictating builds, which is often the problem of teamwork effects like Teamwork Benefits and PF Teamwork feats.

[NeoSeraphi]

You haven't looked, then, as I see Apprentice, Business Rules, Sudden Stunning and Vest of Legends (DMG2) pop up quite often and War Weaver (Heroes of Battle) gets tossed around as a high OP PrC about as often as Incantatrix and Shadowcraft Mage does, including a couple of handbooks built exclusively for how to best use War Weaver on both WotC and BG (now MinMaxBoards), so they aren't obscure at all. The Leadership feats in HoB show up time and again as well.

I have seen Apprentice, and that's in, on these forums. I have never even heard of Business Rules, Vest of Legends, or War Weaver before, and I only know about Sudden Stunning because someone wanted to use it in a game I played a while back.


Because you don't want wasted feats, I would encourage you to grant half a bonus when with an ally that does not have the feat, and the full bonus when there is one teammate with the same feat. If you're ever going to NOT get a bouns from a teamwork feat, it should only happen when you're all by yourself.

Good idea. Done.

[Cieyrin]

I have seen Apprentice, and that's in, on these forums. I have never even heard of Business Rules, Vest of Legends, or War Weaver before, and I only know about Sudden Stunning because someone wanted to use it in a game I played a while back.

All I'm saying about this is just because you're not personally familiar with material doesn't make it obscure. For me, obscure would be 3rd Party stuff, like most of Sword and Sorcery, 3rd Ed Ravenloft and Dragonlance, quite a bit of what Mongoose publishes, etc, and individual modules that WotC has made, like Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde, The Sunless Citadel, etc, as well as some of the web articles outside Mind's Eye. Others may think I'm off my rocker for thinking that Far Corners of the World articles or Spellbook articles obscure or that anyone should be familiar with Heartfire Fanner and Half-Minotaur but that's kinda the breaks.

Anyways, off-topic and something for a different thread not in Homebrew. I return you to your regularly scheduled homebrewing. :smallwink: