Werewolf or Ghost?

[paurpg]

I want to build a level 11 werewolf, or maybe a ghost. The idea is the character would have a special hatred for arcane casters, since they cursed him to begin with. I imagine these aren't the strongest optimizing wise, but any ideas of how to half-way optimize a build like this or which would better/more fun? The build would be for mostly one and one duels vs players. Magical items are allowed, but only from the core books, libris mortis, complete books, unearthed arcane and psionics book. Thanks
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
The link to the ghost and werwolf templates.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a

[lunar2]

do you specifically want werewolf, or would any lycanthrope do?

weretiger would be better, since it has both pounce and improved grab, perfect for going up against casters.

[Mystify]

Ghost would suck for this. You have a lot of LA, and no con, so you end up very short on hp. Spellcasters can easily bypass your etherealness and splatter you all over the countryside. If you did do such a route, you would have to take a much more subtle approach.

[Rubik]

If you get the special ability that lets you possess other creatures (Malevolence), a ghost is nearly unkillable. Especially given that if you ARE killed you just spontaneously revive not too long thereafter. And combined with Telekinesis at-will (every 1d4 rounds), you can get some really good damage output as well.

[Mystify]

Especially given that if you ARE killed you just spontaneously revive not too long thereafter.
Sometimes, if you are lucky. At high levels it can become pretty much guaranteed, but at low levels its a shot in the dark . You need to make a (1d20 + ghost’s HD) against DC 16 check to come back. With your +5 LA, you aren't guaranteed to return until level 20. When you start, you have about a quarter-half chance of coming back.

[Igneel]

Sometimes, if you are lucky. At high levels it can become pretty much guaranteed, but at low levels its a shot in the dark . You need to make a (1d20 + ghost’s HD) against DC 16 check to come back. With your +5 LA, you aren't guaranteed to return until level 20. When you start, you have about a quarter-half chance of coming back.

Ah, but seeing as how its a class/template he doesn't have to take all 5 levels, technically he can take up to level 3 (minimum for Rejuvenation) for an additional +2 to the save. Would miss out on Malevolence but if your really worried about staying alive it might be worth it.
Not to mention that the text doesn't really specify what happens if you fail that save, but rather repeats itself in that the only way to be permanently killed is if the 'laid to rest' requirement is met. Smells like a loop hole...

[Gray Mage]

You said vs players, so are you the DM? If so it'd help a lot to know what your party is like.

Other then that, if you go with ghost, it's a good idea to put those cha bonus to good use and probably avoid the 5th level. Sorcerer is an obvious choice and is usefull to fight other arcane casters, plus the DC of your abilities depends on cha too.



Sometimes, if you are lucky. At high levels it can become pretty much guaranteed, but at low levels its a shot in the dark . You need to make a (1d20 + ghost’s HD) against DC 16 check to come back. With your +5 LA, you aren't guaranteed to return until level 20. When you start, you have about a quarter-half chance of coming back.

Actually, it's a level check and the linked template have levels, not LA. So at 11th level he'll have a +11 to the check no matter if he has 3, 4 or 5 levels in the template class, so he makes it on a 5, or an 80% of coming back.

[Mystify]

You said vs players, so are you the DM? If so it'd help a lot to know what your party is like.

Other then that, if you go with ghost, it's a good idea to put those cha bonus to good use and probably avoid the 5th level. Sorcerer is an obvious choice and is usefull to fight other arcane casters, plus the DC of your abilities depends on cha too.




Actually, it's a level check and the linked template have levels, not LA. So at 11th level he'll have a +11 to the check no matter if he has 3, 4 or 5 levels in the template class, so he makes it on a 5, or an 80% of coming back.
That does change the balance significantly...

[paurpg]

The ghost at level 2 gets flying, incorporeality, and a telekinesis like a 12th level caster. That has to count for something, atleast at lower levels. By the way I would be motly fighting other players one on one, of all types.

[Mystify]

The ghost at level 2 gets flying, incorporeality, and a telekinesis like a 12th level caster. That has to count for something, atleast at lower levels. By the way I would be motly fighting other players one on one, of all types.

Sure, its worth something. But mainly vs. non-casters. A few magic missiles, and you will go down. They punch right through your incorporeality, hit you while you are flying, and nail you right in your pathetic hp. And its magic missile, not some obscure spell.

[Kuulvheysoon]

If you're headed the lycanthrope route, Black Blood Cultist is always good to open up some more combat options.

[Necroticplague]

If you're headed the lycanthrope route, Black Blood Cultist is always good to open up some more combat options.

Wouldn't that be redundant, since he already has ccb routine and dr/silver? The main benefit he would gain is Savage Grapple, imp grapple, and scent.

[Rubik]

Sure, its worth something. But mainly vs. non-casters. A few magic missiles, and you will go down. They punch right through your incorporeality, hit you while you are flying, and nail you right in your pathetic hp. And its magic missile, not some obscure spell.I'd definitely go for Malevolence, since you get the new body's hp total, and if it dies you're merely rejected.

[paurpg]

Sure, its worth something. But mainly vs. non-casters. A few magic missiles, and you will go down. They punch right through your incorporeality, hit you while you are flying, and nail you right in your pathetic hp. And its magic missile, not some obscure spell.

Wait, as a ghost he gets the d12 hit dice, and I thought he would get extra hitpoints at every level he goes up, did I misunderstand that? According to mystic a level 5 ghost would have 1d12 hit points? Is that right?
ABout magic missile, If it was a ghost wizard or sorceror he could cast shield, or resist energy.

I guess the underlying question is, is there some way to make this playable even though the LA is so high? Or do moster templates like these just stink?

[Taelas]

They can be viable, if you know what you're doing. But in many cases, yes... they suck.

The "monster classes" that exist are built to back up a level adjustment -- and if there aren't any HD involved, then they don't get additional hit points.

Undead that advance by character class (and not by racial HD) get HP according to the class, unless the specific creature says otherwise. Ghosts, vampires and liches get all current and future HD upgraded to d12 regardless of character class.

A 5th level ghost has an ECL of 10 (+5 LA and 5 levels) and 5d12 hit points.

[Mystify]

Wait, as a ghost he gets the d12 hit dice, and I thought he would get extra hitpoints at every level he goes up, did I misunderstand that? According to mystic a level 5 ghost would have 1d12 hit points? Is that right?
ABout magic missile, If it was a ghost wizard or sorceror he could cast shield, or resist energy.

I guess the underlying question is, is there some way to make this playable even though the LA is so high? Or do moster templates like these just stink?

They have to take the LA, even if it is part of a class progression. All that really affords you is the luxury of playing it at levels before you can afford all of the LA/RHD. Or supposedly you can take part of its progression, which can be helpful in some cases. This leaves you with less HD, and no con mod. Your hit points are devastatingly low.

And if you were a caster, you could cast sheild. Resist energy wouldn't help against magic missile, but anything else they throw at you still has a 50% chance of hitting, at which point you are likely vaporized, or at least seriously injured.

Monster templates generally suck. The LA system is completely bonkers. The entire premise behind it is fishy, then their actual values are unreasonably high.

[Rubik]

There are ways to get additional hp (the preferred version is temp hp), but lucky for a ghost with Malevolence they get their new body's hp (and a Con for that tasty modifier). Just have your party give your soon-to-be-new body a good thumping into unconsciousness so you can then possess it at your leisure. (Unconscious creatures are considered 'willing' after all.)

And ghost is about the only creature and/or template anywhere near +5 LA that's worth it if you use it right.

[nyarlathotep]

If you're willing to use homebrew here are the advance monster classes for ghost (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1149.0)and werewolf (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3367.0). They take the place of LA entirely if you choose to use them.

[eggs]

With Leadership and Malevolence, you could do a quasi-gestalt by possessing a cohort who has abilities that don't require specific activation.

To keep level-appropriate, Improved Cohort would probably be needed, as well as classes with abilities based on generalized class levels or character level (explicitly advanced by savage template progressions), rather than HD or specific class levels. Aptitude Weapons, Tome of Battle and much of the Incarnum system are fairly friendly with a Malevolence ghost, for example.

I've been geeking out statting a bunch of the possibilities (my favorite so far being a Law Incarnate with a Bat Cave of Effigy shells), but many of them and run an awkward combination of potential brokenness and reliance on DM gratuity in rules-interpretation, so the actual implementation would depend almost entirely on your group hashing it out.

But even without Leadership abuse, with a bit of trickery and some knowledge checks, you should be able to get a level-appropriate husk of some big dumb level-appropriate monster. Then apply some ToB or MoI levels, and you'll be about where you should be, power-wise.

[Kuulvheysoon]

With Leadership and Malevolence, you could do a quasi-gestalt by possessing a cohort who has abilities that don't require specific activation.

To keep level-appropriate, Improved Cohort would probably be needed, as well as classes with abilities based on generalized class levels or character level (explicitly advanced by savage template progressions), rather than HD or specific class levels. Aptitude Weapons, Tome of Battle and much of the Incarnum system are fairly friendly with a Malevolence ghost, for example.

I've been geeking out statting a bunch of the possibilities (my favorite so far being a Law Incarnate with a Bat Cave of Effigy shells), but many of them and run an awkward combination of potential brokenness and reliance on DM gratuity in rules-interpretation, so the actual implementation would depend almost entirely on your group hashing it out.

But even without Leadership abuse, with a bit of trickery and some knowledge checks, you should be able to get a level-appropriate husk of some big dumb level-appropriate monster. Then apply some ToB or MoI levels, and you'll be about where you should be, power-wise.

I'd advise ToB over MoI for a ghost - Incarnum is definitely NOT undead friendly, costing a feat to even USE it if you're undead.

[nyarlathotep]

Holy triple replies Batman!!!

[eggs]

I'd advise ToB over MoI for a ghost - Incarnum is definitely NOT undead friendly, costing a feat to even USE it if you're undead.

I'd advise ToB over MoI for a ghost - Incarnum is definitely NOT undead friendly, costing a feat to even USE it if you're undead.

I'd advise ToB over MoI for a ghost - Incarnum is definitely NOT undead friendly, costing a feat to even USE it if you're undead.
You say that like you mean it. :smalltongue:

I'd say MoI's a viable alternative because despite its feat tax, it has more versatility in effects, is less dependent on forms (unless a build skips the feat tax, in which case, they become super form-dependent) and can better cope with Incorporeality. But ToB does integrate more smoothly.

----

Anyway, I just noticed that the skill rank cap is based on character level, not hit dice. Since this is one of the weird niche cases where they're not synonymous, a Bard 1/Ghost 4/Wizard 2/Ruathar 3/Sublime Chord 1 isn't a horrible bet at ECL 11, provided you can find something to possess with decent HP. CL might be a bit of a problem, though.

[Rubik]

Holy triple replies Batman!!!I'm nigh-constantly getting those because of nigh-constant server lag.

[Maxios]

Werewolf. That way, you won't have the Ghostbusters after you :smallwink:.

[Rubik]

Werewolf. That way, you won't have the Ghostbusters after you :smallwink:.Instead you'll have Bella Swan after you.

I'd rather have some really smart dumb guys after me than her. *shudder*

[Kuulvheysoon]

Instead you'll have Bella Swan after you.

I'd rather have some really smart dumb guys after me than her. *shudder*

But nobody cares if one killseats Bella Swan, while the people would revolt f something happened to the Ghostbusters.

[Rubik]

But nobody cares if one killseats Bella Swan, while the people would revolt f something happened to the Ghostbusters.But if you're a good little comic relief character, you get to be the Ghostbusters' mascot.

Bella would just emo you to death (and beyond).

[Kuulvheysoon]

But if you're a good little comic relief character, you get to be the Ghostbusters' mascot.

Bella would just emo you to death (and beyond).

Well, clearly this is why you get Death Ward cast on yourself.

And find someway to avoid her Death by Emo (Su) ability.

[Rubik]

Well, clearly this is why you get Death Ward cast on yourself.

And find someway to avoid her Death by Emo (Su) ability.That's purely a natural ability, may the gods help us all. She gets a +12 to the DC for threatening to commit suicide if the object of her co-dependence is not around. That's because it's based on Charisma, and hers sits at -5.

And yes, she manages to have Charisma even lower than that of a mindless zombie.

[Kuulvheysoon]

That's purely a natural ability, may the gods help us all. She gets a +12 to the DC for threatening to commit suicide if the object of her co-dependence is not around. That's because it's based on Charisma, and hers sits at -5.

And yes, she manages to have Charisma even lower than that of a mindless zombie.

Wait, she isn't mindless? Gods, with all her non-stop moaning I thought that she HAD to be some form of Int - monster.

It's official: if someone ever cast Eagle's Splendor on her, we would all have to bow at Pun Pun's feet for salvation.

[eggs]

That's purely a natural ability, may the gods help us all.
So it's available through Malevolence?

New plan:
Talk one of your buddies into being a werewolf...

[Rubik]

So it's available through Malevolence?

New plan:
Talk one of your buddies into being a werewolf...You REALLY don't want to possess Bella Swan. Your mental stats will DIE just from being in her. Her brain can't sustain anything over a 1.

(Also, eww. Bad image. BAAAAD image. GET OUT OF MY HEAD.)

[123456789blaaa]

Here is a handbook on lycanthropes

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=607

Here is a handbook on ghosts

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860050/The_Ghost_Guide

Here is another handbook on ghosts (the two guides have different information so you should read both)

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2658.0

and here is a page on playing ghosts

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2718.0